View Full Version : 2000 years on.
What do we know about Jesus? He was born in Judea so he was Palestinian, he was of the tribe of Israel so he was Jewish and he was of the House of David so descended from a king. Another thing we know is that when he was born, like every other baby born into this world he was completely and totally innocent.
At the time Judea was a satellite state of Rome, they had their own king, Herod but he was just a puppet. Rome was a super power, had by far the biggest and most powerful army, their elite lived in luxury and the rulers of their empire lived in luxury protected by the might of the Roman Army and in return Rome helped themselves to the countries natural resources and the people paid taxes to Rome. This may have suited the Romans and the rulers of Judea but the people wanted their own national identity, self determination, they had long been praying for a Messiah, a saviour to free them from the shackles of Rome and one had long been prophesied.
Christmas day 2006 years ago Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem, they were there for a census, the Romans liked to keep tabs on their subjects they didn't have biometrics in those days, and to pay their taxes to the Roman Empire. Some Kings from the East, Persia, Iraq as we call it now were also there, they were there because a new star had appeared which they saw as a sign that the person who would free Judea from the Romans was going to be born.
Herod had also heard the rumour so to be on the safe side he ordered all the new born babies in the land killed, all the babies that had one thing in common, their innocence. Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt and claimed refugee status.
Two thousand years on and what has changed? Palestine is still ruled by puppets of a mighty military and economic empire, they still long for their national identity, self determination, are still looking for a saviour. What of the innocents? What of a baby born tonight in Bethlehem drawing its first breath completely free of sin? The massacre of the innocents goes on.
http://news.independent.co.uk/appeals/indy_appeal/article2097790.ece
danc1ngwitch
24-Dec-06, 16:22
and so the story is told 2000 women died they took thier lives in the sea because they refused to worship a dead man on a cross... ( ops i don't mean to mock or nothing like that just a story tis all ) I Do Respect all religions but everyone has different veiws tis all .. xxx are we allowed to talk about this ??? ( lowers head now im goin ta get my butt kicked )[lol]
I think this could be a long thread the thing is all the information we have on jesus and god we dont know for sure how accurate the information is at the time it was written i think religion is just something that gives people something to believe in and gives people a meaning in life and religion has caused a lot of conflicts over the years.
I personally believe that there is life after death but not in the way we think.For me when u see how the world is made up and every creature needs every creature for there food chains and so on its just to much of cowinsident how mother nature works out that why i think it there is life after death in a different format.Its like saying as well if god created everyone and everything who created him everything has to start from somewere.
Its also like saying as well are we the only person in this universe i dont think so we just havent got the technolgy to find out imagine going out to space there must be a start and a finish somwhere and if u traveled at warp 10 for so many years in one direction i reckon there will be aliens to be found its a very mind boggling subject and yes im treky fan
I think this could be a long thread the thing is all the information we have on jesus and god we dont know for sure how accurate the information is at the time it was written i think religion is just something that gives people something to believe in and gives people a meaning in life and religion has caused a lot of conflicts over the years.
Forget about Jesus, forget about the Roman Empire forget about everything except the innocent newborn babies, free from sin, dying every day because our leaders don't like the people their parents voted for.
It's Christmas, a time to think about the children.
danc1ngwitch
24-Dec-06, 17:03
Forget about Jesus, forget about the Roman Empire forget about everything except the innocent newborn babies, free from sin, dying every day because our leaders don't like the people their parents voted for.
It's Christmas, a time to think about the children.
reality no wonder we hide from it x
Was Jesus Palestinian or Phoenician? Innocent? What does that actually mean? We know he was born with the ability to talk.
Rome was strong, but they couldny beat us!
Three Kings eh? Were they Kings or Magi? Why did they really take gold, frankinsence and myrrh? He was going to liberate Judaea, was he? When did the Son or the Father say that? I must have missed that bit. I don’t recall Him being concerned with any country in particular.
“Palestine is still ruled by puppets of a mighty military and economic empire.” How accurate is this statement?
What of a baby born tonight? What indeed? Will they grow up to fire rockets randomly at other innocents in Israel just as their fathers did?
What is your post really about Fred? It looks to me like you have some pretty ingrained, pre-conceived ideas about this region. You seem to support the innocents of Palestine, but at the expense of the innocents of Israel.
Why are the Israelis there? Didn’t England put them there at the end of WWII?
How many times did God get the message to the Jews that they would be surrounded by enemies, but that they would have the gates of their enemies. For a start, try Genesis 22:17, where God speaks to Abraham. Looks like this is going to run and run no matter what our individual opinions are.
As I sign off, I recommend to you, Proverbs 3:6.
and so the story is told 2000 women died they took thier lives in the sea because they refused to worship a dead man on a cross... ( ops i don't mean to mock or nothing like that just a story tis all ) I Do Respect all religions but everyone has different veiws tis all .. xxx are we allowed to talk about this ??? ( lowers head now im goin ta get my butt kicked )[lol]
We all have different views right enough. I see nothing here that people should attack you for Dancing.
I think this could be a long thread the thing is all the information we have on jesus and god we dont know for sure how accurate the information is at the time it was written i think religion is just something that gives people something to believe in and gives people a meaning in life and religion has caused a lot of conflicts over the years.
I personally believe that there is life after death but not in the way we think.For me when u see how the world is made up and every creature needs every creature for there food chains and so on its just to much of cowinsident how mother nature works out that why i think it there is life after death in a different format.Its like saying as well if god created everyone and everything who created him everything has to start from somewere.
Its also like saying as well are we the only person in this universe i dont think so we just havent got the technolgy to find out imagine going out to space there must be a start and a finish somwhere and if u traveled at warp 10 for so many years in one direction i reckon there will be aliens to be found its a very mind boggling subject and yes im treky fan
Is it time to ban organised religion? You are right to question accuracy Eddie. The information has been interpreted or should that be manipulated by many religious leaders over 2000 years.
Nobody created God. God created everything, because He was first and He could.
We are not the only ones in the universe; that is plain enough.
Forget about Jesus, forget about the Roman Empire forget about everything except the innocent newborn babies, free from sin, dying every day because our leaders don't like the people their parents voted for.
It's Christmas, a time to think about the children.
Fair enough Fred. Everyone should stop killing and that gets my vote. All babies have the same value, no matter where they are born or to what parents.
reality no wonder we hide from it x
Absolutely. It is scary stuff.
danc1ngwitch
24-Dec-06, 18:55
Fair enough Fred. Everyone should stop killing and that gets my vote. All babies have the same value, no matter where they are born or to what parents.
All babies do have the same Value, to people like *US* xxx
http://www.ensignmessage.com/godslaw.html
Three Kings eh?
Read what I write not what you think I'm writing.
What is your post really about Fred? It looks to me like you have some pretty ingrained, pre-conceived ideas about this region. You seem to support the innocents of Palestine, but at the expense of the innocents of Israel.
Read what I write not what you think I'm writing.
Some Kings from the East,
OK, you said "Some" not three.
Two thousand years on and what has changed? Palestine is still ruled by puppets of a mighty military and economic empire, they still long for their national identity, self determination, are still looking for a saviour. What of the innocents?
It's what you wrote Fred.
Conscience
25-Dec-06, 10:34
Why are the Israelis there? Didn’t England put them there at the end of WWII?
No. Britain put them there, along with the US.
British involvement stems from the BALFOUR DECLARATION (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration%2C_1917), in a letter from Arthur James Balfour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_James_Balfour) to Lord Rothschild. Arthur James Balfour 1st Lord of Balfour, born in East Lothian, Scotland. So, trying to blame England alone for the mess is a bit silly, don't you think?
j4bberw0ck
25-Dec-06, 10:46
Read what I write not what you think I'm writing. Read what I write not what you think I'm writing.
Some things never change!
Happy Christmas, Fred :lol:
It's what you wrote Fred.
I didn't say anything about any innocents of Israel.
You on the other hand had an innocent newborn Palestinian baby already pegged as firing rockets into Israel. All Palestinians don't fire rockets into Israel you know, the chances are pretty small that its father ever fired rockets into Israel.
What of a baby born tonight? What indeed? Will they grow up to fire rockets randomly at other innocents in Israel just as their fathers did?
It is you who have the ingrained preconcieved ideas about the region.
No. Britain put them there, along with the US.
I think the credit must go to the Zionists for putting them there, they did consider two other sites in Africa before deciding on Palestine, it was they who put the preasure on the British and American governments.
Zionists are not a race or a religeon BTW, they are a political movement and terrorist organisation. A bit like the IRA except at least the IRA had the decency to be nationalist about their own country not someone elses. Just incase anyone reading this doesn't know what Zionism is and thinks that criticising them is racist.
The Balfour declaration was superceded by several White Papers culminating in the MacDonald White Paper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_White_Paper) of 1939.
Even during WWII when Britain was fighting Nazi Germany the Zionists kept up their terrorist attacks against British forces in Palestine to try and get them to withdraw. The attacks were mostly successful but some terrorists were captured, tried and hanged. The Zionists retaliated by capturing two British sergeants and hanging them in an orange grove, slowly, with piano wire, in 1944.
The leader of the Zionist terrorist group which hung the British sergeants was Menachem Begin.
The biggest problem with people is they should respect other peoples beliefs and religion whether they agree or not instead of trying to high jack a religion or use the religious beliefs as excuse to cause trouble people that do that there not true to there religion
A word of sanity - thanks Eddie. I started reading this thread and agreed with Fred's initial post (in fact wondered if he had been listening to the same sermon as me yesterday!) but then it looked as if it was going to descend into the usual slanging match which seemed a shame for Christmas and I got bored.
I agree totally with Eddie. Peace on earth and good will to all.
Welcome back Fred, I had a little bet with myself on you, and I lost, I bet myself that you would take at least a month before mentioning Israel, the Israelies, the Zionists.
But no you have only been back two weeks roughly and here you are again.
As I said earlier Welcome back Fred
The biggest problem with people is they should respect other peoples beliefs and religion whether they agree or not instead of trying to high jack a religion or use the religious beliefs as excuse to cause trouble people that do that there not true to there religion
Yes but this has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.
It's politics, nationalism, pure and simple.
It's an easy cop out to blame the troubles in the Middle East on religious extrmism but at the end of the day the Palestinian's homeland has been occupied by a foreign force, they want it back...wouldn't you?
There are beliefs common to all religions, beliefs which transcend religion, a basic instinctive knowledge of right and wrong, of the intrinsic rights of every human being and I don't think anyone who doesn't look the other way and refuse to see could argue that the rights of the Palestinian people weren't well and truly violated, continue to be violated to this day, for political reasons.
Two thousand years ago the rights of every new born child in Palestine were violated for political reasons, nothing to do with religion, to remove any threat to the political domination of Herod. Today the intrinsic rights of every new born child in Palestine are being violated, for exactly the same reason.
Now you can forget about religion, forget about the anti Islamic propoganda being drummed into us at the moment and accept the facts or you can close your eyes, put your hands over your ears and just keep reciting "they fire rockets at Israel" over and over to excuse everything and on Christmas Day in another 2000 years the rights of new born babies in Palestine will still be being violated.
It's down to us to do something, the newspapers won't, the TV stations won't and the politicians won't, well very few of them anyway. What can we do? We can persuade people to stop looking the other way and face the truth, the power of public opinion is a very powerful force.
Jeemag_USA
25-Dec-06, 16:29
It's down to us to do something, the newspapers won't, the TV stations won't and the politicians won't, well very few of them anyway. What can we do? We can persuade people to stop looking the other way and face the truth, the power of public opinion is a very powerful force.
What do you honestly think you can do. The only people who can do something about this situation is the people living there, both the Palestinians and the Israeli's and everyone around them. There is not a single thing you or I or anyone in here can do about it except talk about it and no matter what we say it still will make no bearing on the course of History in the Middle East. There has been fighting and turmoil over there for thousands of years involving people and countries from all over the world and its still the same, so you think it can be changed. If you get peace between two bodies of people another will get upset and so on and so on. The only thing you can do about it is allow it to run its natural course until it comes to an end in either a violent or peaceful form. History should tell everyone that in a large percentage of international crisis, the ordinary everyday people are powerless to do anything about any situation and even when a government makes you feel like your making a difference you're not, its just to placate you. I'm not saying that happens all the time but mostly.
There are problems all over the world and none of them less significant than in the Middle East. As you guys argue about one place, another Ethiopia is going to war with Somalia. There are still countless millions of people with no food in Ethiopia and for the most part the cameras stopped going there in the eighties, but there are still millions of families who either have no food for days or have some wild cabbage for one day and then none the next, at night nobody can sleep for hunger and the sound of crying children and it goes on and it goes on and on, and it is still happening in Sudan and Somalia as well as people keep fighting which ultimately affects the supply of food in its own way.
And talking of nationalism, its an evil in itself, as is Patriotism and Pride. These are things that blind us from seeing the rest of the world as our own, too many people divide up the world according to borders and flags. Until we start thinking outside of all that then no change will ever happen. If you want to really make change you have to do it with your own voite in your own country, when people start to speak out and demand a larger say in the politics of the world then things will change, when people start realising that most governments are only interested in what is financially beneficial for themselves or their own subjects within their own little borders, then things might change. Once a government is voted in, in any so called democratic country, do you really believe you can stop them from doing what they want. You can't and that is one of the biggest problems in the world, people don't act anymore. Running around waving a flag doesn't help anyone i know that for sure living in the USA.
If you look back on the time of Jesus, there was no difference, nobody could do anything to stop a flow of power into the middle east, they probably talked and talked about it like people do today, had coffee mornings, jumble sales and set up action groups which were absolutely futile (poor analogy I know). And so they needed a savior. So is that what you are waiting for, the new savior, maybe its the only thing that can help at all. And who will this savior be will he be a Jew, a muslin, a chinese man, what? It ain't going to work is it because he woudl pretty much have to be an alien for somebody not to get upset.
I think the problem with the world for sometime is that there are no great leaders, no great men or women, and I mean Truly GREAT. People who are full of love and compassion and are in a position where they can make a difference. Maybe Nelson Mandela is one of the last of a line of heroes, but is he really contributing anything since the fall of Apartheid, not that he needs to because he has done his part in History.
My own personal hero is Mohandas K Gandhi. If ever you wanted an example of a savior, a truly great being, then Gandhi to me is the last one we had. He freed a country from oppression of the British Empire solely with his wisdom and his common love for all people, and he openly stated when questioned on his religion "I am a Christian, I am a Jew, I am a Muslim, I am a Hindu, I am all religions". (granted after Britain left things went pear shaped and India split into India and Pakistan, but still he did everything he could for the common man and didn't even assume any power himself, he never held any official political title yet most world leaders attended his funeral) SO maybe Palestine needs a man who comes from a good background who finds opression against his type which leads him to "love everybody" instead of "hating everybody". And they will need him to bring peace without violence, peace through wisdom, love and truth. Because anyone who feels they have an answer to a problem which is based on anything other than that, I can tell you now its not worth talking about because it won't work.
I don't see the point of snapping at each other on subjects like this, even though a thread based on any kind of politics or religion does attract that, it does no good. Lots of people can come in all smart and quoting from references which they believe to be true but in reality they don't really know for sure. Just say what you feel from your own mind without paying reference to anyone, or quoting reasons on why you think the problem started, when a problem occurs the facts of what started it rarely have a bearing on how the problem is solved so I don't think it does any good trying to apportion blame on who started something, but rather concentrate on who is going to end it. It certainly won't be us for the most part, but thinking in terms of 'us' as the whole world, then yes it will be one of us who solves the worlds problems.
The Middle East needs a Gandhi, not a Jesus. An Anti-Osama or Anti-Saddam if you like. Someone with no care for what religion or color a person is but only cares for the fact that he loves them all.
What do you honestly think you can do.
Well if I try and fail at least I won't have failed to try.
Jeemag_USA
25-Dec-06, 17:06
And for those of you wo do like quotes or references, then I will throw one in for you, its as profound today as it was the day it was delivered :D
"That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned: That until there are no longer first-class and second class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained."
Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia
Have a Happy Holiday ;)
Jeemag_USA
25-Dec-06, 17:17
Well if I try and fail at least I won't have failed to try.
Quotes hmmm nice. But did you honestly try to answer the question?
danc1ngwitch
25-Dec-06, 18:29
lets throw a few more words into this flight of passions...
xxx
OK...I am engulfed in a seductive warmth, i can hear a thrashing.... i close my eyes and i can see, my stranger but tis not a stranger?? ... tall dark... and hidden... he will be as i want him to be.. if i desire love then love i get.. if i desire passion ..then i get it .. if i desire Wicked pleasure then that is what he will give unto me... I can feel his every stroke...
Enough as my maddness you do not need nor could you handle.
( what religion can this be )
Different people have different ways to get then through life never bring down what you do not know or feel...
Quotes hmmm nice. But did you honestly try to answer the question?
I think I answered the question earlier.
All I can do is change the way a few people think but if there are enough like me changing the way a few people think and the people go on to change the way a few more people think then we might make a difference.
Sorry if you were wanting a Gandhi, can't help you there.
Well Fred i agree with u when other countries impose there political views on there countries and occupy there country its just a recipe for diaster and dare i say it you would have thought uk would have learned there lesson with ireland before going to iraq and look at the mess iraq is in its going to take decades to sort out and i think the longer its occupied the worse its going to get but the sad thing is with the uk is we are truly americas poodle.
And to be honest when it comes to wars and sanctions it should be the UN and only the UN the should be approving that actions and no country in the world should be allowed to take the law into there own hands do these acts unless there being attacked and if the problem is the UN is to soft and slow in making these decisions then UN needs to be overhauled so when theres war or a sanction its backed by the UN and all the world leaders and not the minorty of world leaders
Well Fred i agree with u when other countries impose there political views on there countries and occupy there country its just a recipe for diaster and dare i say it you would have thought uk would have learned there lesson with ireland before going to iraq and look at the mess iraq is in its going to take decades to sort out and i think the longer its occupied the worse its going to get but the sad thing is with the uk is we are truly americas poodle.
Oh I think our government learnt a lot from Northern Ireland. They learnt they could commit criminal acts to start a conflict and get away with it then pass criminal acts like the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1974 and the Terrorism Act 2000 and get away with it.
They learnt that a population affraid was a population they could control.
I wonder what happened to the Saville Inquiry.
Interesting discussion on the radio this morning about the way the American Constitution has been eroded by George Bush. Sadly Tony Blair also appears to believe he is a president and is busy reducing our civil rights. Both leaders preach democracy but don’t practise it, and both were very dubiously re-elected so they could use what they claim is the approval of their countrymen as justification. How many "Freds" does it take in both countries to wake us up to what is happening? King Herod and Saddam Hussein were ruthless dictators who held on to power with torture and mass murder. Bush and Blair also use torture and mass murder to achieve their ends, claiming that these ends justify the means. If they were allowed to remain in power I wonder how long it would be before they stopped bothering with the justification? The original "end" in Iraq may have been worthy but the means were so unworthy that we are left with a very different end.
Interesting discussion on the radio this morning about the way the American Constitution has been eroded by George Bush. Sadly Tony Blair also appears to believe he is a president and is busy reducing our civil rights. Both leaders preach democracy but don’t practise it, and both were very dubiously re-elected so they could use what they claim is the approval of their countrymen as justification. How many "Freds" does it take in both countries to wake us up to what is happening? King Herod and Saddam Hussein were ruthless dictators who held on to power with torture and mass murder. Bush and Blair also use torture and mass murder to achieve their ends, claiming that these ends justify the means. If they were allowed to remain in power I wonder how long it would be before they stopped bothering with the justification? The original "end" in Iraq may have been worthy but the means were so unworthy that we are left with a very different end.
The highly dubious events of 9/11 aside there is no doubt about the anthrax scare which led to Congress being closed for four days and the Patriot Act passed unread. The anthrax proved to be high weapons grade which could only have come from an American Government laboratory.
There are a lot of Freds out there and they are making a difference and that is starting to be recognised. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html?aid=434&from=o&to=http%3A//www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2C9171%2C1569514%2C00.html)
John 8:31
Something does not add up in this thread, I find it strange that those who choose to question all contemporary events accept written histories without the same level of skepticism.
Something does not add up in this thread, I find it strange that those who choose to question all contemporary events accept written histories without the same level of skepticism.
Politicians have more reasons to lie than historians do.
But isn't history reflected by the politics? All historians have different persepctives, David Irving is a historian, although his historical persepctive cost him a wee while in jail. There are many perspectives of Scottish history, Michael Fry's view differs a bit from that of Prebble. Somehow I can't see you and Niall Ferguson agreeing on history Fred:)
Politicians have more reasons to lie than historians do.And what about those with Political aspirations who pick, choose, twist and misuse the bits of History which best promotes their Political Ideology.
The two best examples of that tactic during the last hundred years were Stalin and Hitler. What wonderful people to emulate, and strangely enough they both had an intense distrust of the Jews and more especially Zionists.
Two events separated by 2000 years and everything during the intervening period conveniently ignored along with every other current War, Disaster and Humanitarian Horror which cannot be blamed on Britain or America.
Once again it is that which is being deliberately avoided which screams far louder about the aims of this thread than that which is being proclaimed as demanding of all our attention.
But that should be of no surprise to anybody who has read more than a couple of this sort of thread, the all follow the same pattern.
i actually stumbled upon this last night... on one of my favourite conspiracy sites...
it just seems quite an apt point of the thread to post it as its less than 24 hours old to me.
Could it be fate? :lol:
Only click the link if you are open minded, have a decent connection I.E. 1mb or above and have 2 hours to spare.
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-4757274759497686216
Happy Viewing....
if you lke it.. try http://www.sacredcow.com/, alex jones is the preacher you seek...:) or a smalar perspective with a huge dollop of humour is Bill Hicks.
And no i do not believe everything he produces, but there has to be some truth in it somewhere, theres only so much coincidence i can stomach.
And what about those with Political aspirations who pick, choose, twist and misuse the bits of History which best promotes their Political Ideology.
The two best examples of that tactic during the last hundred years were Stalin and Hitler. What wonderful people to emulate, and strangely enough they both had an intense distrust of the Jews and more especially Zionists.
What makes you think that?
They used Jews as scapegoats when things went wrong, blamed it on the Jews and peoples natural antisemitism allowed them to do it. Let them amass wealth then take it off them. Use them as a common enemy to unite the people against. They were not alone, it had been standard practice in many European countries including England for hundreds of years. Rob the national coffers then blame it on the Jews. Doing anything dodgy? Put a Jew in charge then if you get caught you have someone to blame.
Try Googling for Genrikh Yagoda, you'll get the picture.
As for Zionists, anyone who doesn't have an intense distrust of Zionists is damned stupid. They are by definition a racist organisation, don't know why people like you keep on defending them. You're in good company though, at the moment they're getting a lot of support from the American Hard Right Christians and the British BNP.
A word of sanity - thanks Eddie. I started reading this thread and agreed with Fred's initial post (in fact wondered if he had been listening to the same sermon as me yesterday!) but then it looked as if it was going to descend into the usual slanging match which seemed a shame for Christmas and I got bored.
I agree totally with Eddie. Peace on earth and good will to all.
Wouldn't it be good to have peace and goodwill to all men 365 days a year?
Fred: "It's an easy cop out to blame the troubles in the Middle East on religious extrmism but at the end of the day the Palestinian's homeland has been occupied by a foreign force, they want it back...wouldn't you?"
Well... Canada, obviously all the European folk (a LOT of Scots) there will have to leave and hand it back to the native Inuit.
USA. King George had a go at owning the country till the 'war of Independence' but don't be misled that the Americans beat the English - as in fact the settlers were still English at that time?.. Anyway 'everyone out'! the USA goes back to the Native Americans
Mexico, 'everyone out' who's got Spanish blood and give the country back to the Olmecs, Mayas & Aztecs
Guatemala: Spanish out and back to the indigenous Mayans
Belize Brits, Spaniards back to Mayas
Honduras Spaniards out back to Lencas & Mayas
El Salvador Portuguese / Spaniards out back to the Pipil and Aztecs
Nicaragua Spanish out back to Aztecs and Maya
Costa Rica Spanish out; back to Caribs, Borucas, Chibchas & Diquis
Panama Spanish out; back to Cuevas and Cocole
Colombia Spanish out back to Chibcha,
Venezuela Spanish out; back to Carib, Arawak and Ilanos
Ecuador Spanish out back to the Canari, Quittu & Caras
Peru Spanish out; back to Inca.. Well that's the Americas, and then there's Australia and New Zealand and so it goes on, and on and on - where does it stop?
What makes you think that?
They used Jews as scapegoats when things went wrong, blamed it on the Jews and peoples natural antisemitism allowed them to do it. Let them amass wealth then take it off them. Use them as a common enemy to unite the people against. They were not alone, it had been standard practice in many European countries including England for hundreds of years. Rob the national coffers then blame it on the Jews. Doing anything dodgy? Put a Jew in charge then if you get caught you have someone to blame.
Try Googling for Genrikh Yagoda, you'll get the picture.
As for Zionists, anyone who doesn't have an intense distrust of Zionists is damned stupid. They are by definition a racist organisation, don't know why people like you keep on defending them. You're in good company though, at the moment they're getting a lot of support from the American Hard Right Christians and the British BNP.That sounds very much like Racism and Bigotry combined to me. I appreciate your comment that the only sane people in the World are those who agree with you, that says far more about your attiude towards others than it ever says about the intelligence of the vast majority of Humanity,
Your concern for the fate of babies and connecting the birth of Christ to your own very narrow political views is absolutely typical.
You attempts at connecting the slaughter of the "Holy Innocents", which incidentally is only mentioned in one Gospel and nowhere else and that includes by people who certainly had no love for Herod, who, incidentally was not a Jew but an ethnic Arab. Had the killing of the "Holy Innocents" taken place as alleged, the Bethlehem referred to which was not in Judea but was in fact a small village in Galilee, not far from Nazareth, and at any one time would only have a dozen or so babies under two years of age.
The “Census” demanded by the Romans which supposedly made Joseph and Mary journey to the other Bethlehem in Judea did not take place until several years after the birth of Jesus. That part of the events was included to coincide with the prophases of the Old Testament Prophets that The Messiah would be born in the City of David, and for no other reason.
Much of the version handed down was massaged to fit the ideas of various Religious and Political groups of the time, something you will well understand the use of I am sure, Fred.
Your concern for the poor dying babies in Palestine makes me wonder why such concern does not extend to the many more poor dying babies in Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Tigre, Somalia, The Congo, Chad, Uganda and many other such places where children are dying in far worse conditions.
Why were there no howls of outrage from you and your colleagues when the genocide in Rwanda was happening which also spread into Burundi and by all accounts is still happening to a lesser degree.
Why is there a deafening silence over who is blocking UN sanctions against Sudan to stop the rape and butchery which has been happening month after month for years?
Could it perhaps be that there is no Political Capital to be made because Britain and America are not involved to any great extent?
Sorry to have to say this, but your high moral concerns over death and destruction and especially the "Suffering and Dead Babies Card" only seems to occur on those occasions where you can use them as propaganda against Britain and America. Other than that they seem to be of no concern whatsoever.
In that respect you have much in common with those you pick and choose and deliberately misuse various Religious Teachings as a means of Rabble Rousing!
Pretending that you differentiate between Zionist and Jew might fool some people but I have seen such methods used far to often to be fooled by them.
Racism is racism no matter what weasel words are used to try to disguise it and anti-Semitism is no different even when it is portrayed only as those Jews with particular beliefs.
Genrikh Yagoda? I Googled it and guess what? I came up with the same highly politically motivated sites you seem to always refer us to. They even manage to make “Die Sturmer” look quite moderate.
Shalom Fred. I will leave you with my favourite toast, “Next Year in Jerusalem!”
Fred: "It's an easy cop out to blame the troubles in the Middle East on religious extrmism but at the end of the day the Palestinian's homeland has been occupied by a foreign force, they want it back...wouldn't you?"
Well... Canada, obviously all the European folk (a LOT of Scots) there will have to leave and hand it back to the native Inuit.
USA. King George had a go at owning the country till the 'war of Independence' but don't be misled that the Americans beat the English - as in fact the settlers were still English at that time?.. Anyway 'everyone out'! the USA goes back to the Native Americans
Mexico, 'everyone out' who's got Spanish blood and give the country back to the Olmecs, Mayas & Aztecs
Guatemala: Spanish out and back to the indigenous Mayans
Belize Brits, Spaniards back to Mayas
Honduras Spaniards out back to Lencas & Mayas
El Salvador Portuguese / Spaniards out back to the Pipil and Aztecs
Nicaragua Spanish out back to Aztecs and Maya
Costa Rica Spanish out; back to Caribs, Borucas, Chibchas & Diquis
Panama Spanish out; back to Cuevas and Cocole
Colombia Spanish out back to Chibcha,
Venezuela Spanish out; back to Carib, Arawak and Ilanos
Ecuador Spanish out back to the Canari, Quittu & Caras
Peru Spanish out; back to Inca.. Well that's the Americas, and then there's Australia and New Zealand and so it goes on, and on and on - where does it stop?
In all those countries didn't the invaders commit genocide against the native populations? Didn't the white man kill 90% of the native population of North America?
Are you suggesting that because we committed genocide in those countries and got away with it we should look the other way while the Zionists commit genocide in Palestine?
Conscience
28-Dec-06, 20:26
Arabs are Semite too.
Pretending that you differentiate between Zionist and Jew might fool some people but I have seen such methods used far to often to be fooled by them.
Racism is racism no matter what weasel words are used to try to disguise it and anti-Semitism is no different even when it is portrayed only as those Jews with particular beliefs.
Of course I differentiate between Zionist and Jew, just as I differentiate between Nazi and German.
So tell me, is it your hatred of Islam which leads you to support Zionism? The enemy of your enemy is your friend? Anyone who kills Moslems can't be bad?
I know why I oppose Zionists, it is the attrocity after attrocity they have committed and the attrocities they will commit if they are allowed to continue with their stratergy of "kill Arab scream antisemitism". I wonder why you support them.
But isn't history reflected by the politics? All historians have different persepctives, David Irving is a historian, although his historical persepctive cost him a wee while in jail. There are many perspectives of Scottish history, Michael Fry's view differs a bit from that of Prebble. Somehow I can't see you and Niall Ferguson agreeing on history Fred:)
Well yes history is very much reflected by politics, as a rule the victor tends to write the history books. And no, I can't see me and Niall Ferguson agreeing on much but then his upbringing as a colonial in Kenya gave him a different perspective on life, a perspective I find somewhat repulsive.
Whitewater
28-Dec-06, 22:39
This has been an interesting thread, read through it all the way, and have seen many excellent posts and interesting opinions. The one thing I have to agree on is the opening post from Fred 'What has changed in 2000yrs'?? Absolutely nothing. They were squabbling then, they are doing it now, only difference being the destructive power of the weapons and the speed of reporting through our modern media. More people are being made instantly aware, and so more people will go on debating the situation. But will they find a solution, I don't think so, I don't think they are interested in finding one.
All religious books appear to agree on what is good and what is evil, nothing wrong with the words of any of the prophets, Jesus included. The trouble comes when our religious (from all religions) and political leaders decide that they need a particular interpretation to convince the ordinary people to obtain their support for whatever evil ends they want to achieve. The modern term for it is spin. The New Testiment being the classic example, produced by the Romans in the third century when they decided they had to have a method of controlling the masses. It is absolutely brilliant, none of our modern day spin doctors come anywhere near it.
Dotted along this thread are various references to children. There is no evil in any child, put children of all colours and religions together and they will all get on and live happily together, as long as there is no outside interference from "Clever clog" adults
There have been many quotes on this thread regarding who done what to who and when. All clever stuff, but useless. If the problem is to be resolved now or in the future you have to forget the past. As has already been stated here history is always written by the victor, it therefore does not give a true picture of events. To solve it you must think like a child, with a pure mind, and a blank sheet, start from there and you may have a chance.
Of course I differentiate between Zionist and Jew, just as I differentiate between Nazi and German.
So tell me, is it your hatred of Islam which leads you to support Zionism? The enemy of your enemy is your friend? Anyone who kills Moslems can't be bad?
I know why I oppose Zionists, it is the attrocity after attrocity they have committed and the attrocities they will commit if they are allowed to continue with their stratergy of "kill Arab scream antisemitism". I wonder why you support them.Have I ever even hinted that I have a hatred of Islam? I have no hatred of Islam or any other Religious Belief for that matter. Your simplistic accusation, which is a typical ploy of all extremists, that if you do not agree with me then you must be full of hatred and, by implication, should be despised by every "right thinking person" shows a complete lack of having a reasoned and well thought argument.
I am proud to say that have risen from the status of "Damned Stupid" to being full of "Hatred".
Please advise me what my next promotion will be so I can decide if it is worth the effort of striving for.
It will have to be something worthwhile because, in the past, I have been assured that I would be personally responsible for the start of the next major Arab/Israeli War and the person concerned was not speaking of a few minor Cross Border Skirmishes which seem to be your major concern, Fred.
Keep up with your outbursts, Fred, I find each one more amusing than the last. I can't wait to be advised that I am "The Great Satan Personified" and am responsible for all the evils in the World. Oh, the Power that would give me. The Power, the Power! Don't keep me waiting, I'm desperate for the Power". The Evil I could cause would be beyond your wildest dreams!
I've been very good since I joined, and not really gotten into my take on the Israel/Palestine question.
But the way I look on it is.................that all those places cited by bigpete happened at a different time under different mores and expectations.
Israel was founded by the West after a war which was started because one race walked into the land of another to take it over...which makes the founding of Israel rather ironic.
We know it was founded because the West felt guilty for allowing the Nazis to kill Jews, gypsies, mentally retarded etc.........5,291,000 Jews, 258,000 Gypsies, 10,547,000 Slavs, and 220,000 homosexuals. They also "euthanized" 173,500 handicapped Germans. Then in repression, terrorism, reprisals, and other cold-blooded killings done to impose and maintain their rule throughout Europe, the Nazis murdered more millions including French, Dutch, Serbs, Slovenes, Czechs, and others. In total, they likely annihilated 20,946,000 human beings.
But only the Jews had the ear of governments.........else we'd have had a lot more "homelands" dumped into other peoples' homes!!!
I'm prepared to accept that Israel now exists, and there isn't any way it can easily be removed..............but I am not prepared to accept that they are "entitled" to one inch more land than they were awarded by the United Nations..............regardless of what the Bible( in which I don't believe) says..............and I am not prepared to accept that the way they react to every perceived "attack" is proportionate and equitable...............and I am disgusted at the craven attitude of my government, ignoring the blatant attempt by Israel to comandeer as much of the allocated Palestinian land as they can get away with.
Maybe it is about time the Zionist element in Israel....those who think they are entitled to what the Bible promised.......had a reality check....and lost the subsidies received from the US until they stop behaving like Nazis.
Fred: "It's an easy cop out to blame the troubles in the Middle East on religious extrmism but at the end of the day the Palestinian's homeland has been occupied by a foreign force, they want it back...wouldn't you?"
Well... Canada, obviously all the European folk (a LOT of Scots) there will have to leave and hand it back to the native Inuit. hundreds of years
USA. King George had a go at owning the country till the 'war of Independence' but don't be misled that the Americans beat the English - as in fact the settlers were still English at that time?.. Anyway 'everyone out'! the USA goes back to the Native Americanshundreds of years
Mexico, 'everyone out' who's got Spanish blood and give the country back to the Olmecs, Mayas & Aztecshundreds of years
Guatemala: Spanish out and back to the indigenous Mayans Hundred of years
Belize Brits, Spaniards back to Mayashundreds of years
Honduras Spaniards out back to Lencas & Mayashundreds of years
El Salvador Portuguese / Spaniards out back to the Pipil and Aztecshundreds of years
Nicaragua Spanish out back to Aztecs and Mayahundreds of years
Costa Rica Spanish out; back to Caribs, Borucas, Chibchas & Diquishundreds of years
Panama Spanish out; back to Cuevas and Cocolehundreds of years
Colombia Spanish out back to Chibcha, hundreds of years
Venezuela Spanish out; back to Carib, Arawak and Ilanos hundreds of years
Ecuador Spanish out back to the Canari, Quittu & Carashundreds of years
Peru Spanish out; back to Inca.. Well that's the Americas, and then there's Australia and New Zealandall hundreds of years and so it goes on, and on and on - where does it stop?
PALASTINELIVING MEMORY
Fred: "In all those countries didn't the invaders commit genocide against the native populations? Didn't the white man kill 90% of the native population of North America? Are you suggesting that because we committed genocide in those countries and got away with it we should look the other way while the Zionists commit genocide in Palestine?"
Oh Fred please don't be so stupid, of course I'm not saying that, unlike you, (most likely?) I've spent years in the Middle East and formed my opinions 'on the ground' not by what I read in the papers. But I can see you are rabid anti-Jewish, so, (like a lot of others on this Forum) will just let you get on with your burbling.. bye
Fred: "In all those countries didn't the invaders commit genocide against the native populations? Didn't the white man kill 90% of the native population of North America? Are you suggesting that because we committed genocide in those countries and got away with it we should look the other way while the Zionists commit genocide in Palestine?"
Oh Fred please don't be so stupid, of course I'm not saying that, unlike you, (most likely?) I've spent years in the Middle East and formed my opinions 'on the ground' not by what I read in the papers. But I can see you are rabid anti-Jewish, so, (like a lot of others on this Forum) will just let you get on with your burbling.. bye
I did think that up here we'd not have the "anti-Zionist"="anti-Jewish" misinformation that we get on forums which are more heavily UK-oriented......but it appears I was wrong.
I assume you are aware, bigpete, that a lot of Jews are anti-what is happening in Israel/Palestine.......now and in the past...............so does that make them anti-Jewish?
Or do you, like an old adversary of mine, think that if a Jew is not a Zionist........he/she isn't a REAL Jew......and this, btw, from a self-confessed non-practising Jew.
Conscience
28-Dec-06, 23:04
How is being critical of Israel's disproportionate responses to Palestinian rocket attacks (which in reality are no more dangerous than if they were launching scrap cars with a giant catapult, and definitely less dangerous than a full scale invasion with tanks, helicopters firing rockets into civilian occupied areas etc.) 'anti-Jewish'? Why does that 'anti' argument always get dragged out when it is Israel being criticised?
Israel has a great many UN Resolutions against it, nearly all of which Israel has ignored.
Here is a list: http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm
You will also see a list of UN Resolutions against Israel which were vetoed by the US.
Ju
Just an example, can't YOU think of ANY country since 1945 that's been 'taken over'.. hmm?
Ju
Just an example, can't YOU think of ANY country since 1945 that's been 'taken over'.. hmm?
Offhand not one which hasn't fought against the takeover............but maybe you can point me at one which has acquiesced without complaint.
Have I ever even hinted that I have a hatred of Islam? I have no hatred of Islam or any other Religious Belief for that matter. Your simplistic accusation, which is a typical ploy of all extremists, that if you do not agree with me then you must be full of hatred and, by implication, should be despised by every "right thinking person" shows a complete lack of having a reasoned and well thought argument.
Have I ever hinted that I have any hatred of Jews?
You were quick enough to ascribe my opposition to the Zionist occupation of Palestine and the attrocities they are committing to antisemitism on my part yet when I do the same it's a typical ploy of extremists.
Now if you just want to stick to the facts (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6131042.stm)
instead of accusing me of being antisemite, anti British, anti American or any other excuse you can think of for ignoring reality that's fine by me.
Palestinian civilians murdered by Israel in Gaza between the end of June and beginning of November this year 155, 57 of them children, 996 wounded, 337 of them children.
Israel is an apartheid state, over 20 laws discriminating against Palestinians. A Jew from anywhere in the world has the right to automatic citizenship, to settle on Palestinian land yet a Palestinian is barred from his own country, is unable to buy land, even a Palestinian married to a citizen of Israel is denied residency in the occupied territories.
There was talk earlier in this thread of great men like Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandella, what they fought against is what is happening in Palestine today.
Are you going to argue the issues or just stick to calling me names then screaming indignation if I do the same to you?
Thank you for your Bad Rep Conscience But in view of the fact that I had already been called "Damned Stupid" for not accepting Fred’s view of the World and then to be accused of having a "Hatred of Islam" followed by the accusation that Zionists strategy of "kill Arab scream anti-Semitism". I wonder why you support them. Implies that I have that view also and am intent on mass murder for Racial motives.
Nor do I take kindly to the accusation "You're in good company though, at the moment they're getting a lot of support from the American Hard Right Christians and the British BNP."
All of which are completely unfounded accusations which, were I to take anything Fred says seriously, I would find highly insulting, very inflammatory and intended as nothing more than to throw groundless accusations around in order to denigrate me as some sort of Fascist Thug.
The accusation of my being personally responsible for the next Arab/Israeli War is in fact correct and as made a good while ago and not on this Board.
My comments that I found the comments made on this Board I do, in fact find amusing because they are so wide of the mark. They were obviously intended to portray me in a certain manner and were obviously made in the hope of annoying me, both of which failed miserably.
I still wait to see if Fred can improve on the accusation that I am “Damned Stupid” for not following his Political Dogma or that I am an Extreme BNP Follower with an “Hatred of Islam” being led by Zionists and joining in the screams of “kill Arab scream anti-Semitism”.
And you accuse me of being unnecessarily provocative and sarcastic? Personally I thought that my response to those kind of offensive insults and unfounded accusations about my personal feelings towards others on the flimsiest of evidence was quite restrained.
And, yes, I do await with some interest to see what further accusations of totally unfounded extremism can be imagined next. I am still waiting for one I have not heard previously from some source or other.
Oh Fred please don't be so stupid, of course I'm not saying that, unlike you, (most likely?) I've spent years in the Middle East and formed my opinions 'on the ground' not by what I read in the papers. But I can see you are rabid anti-Jewish, so, (like a lot of others on this Forum) will just let you get on with your burbling.. bye
Hey JAWS, he called me stupid and rabid anti-Jewish, does that mean he's an extremist or do you have double standards?
Thank you for your Bad Rep Conscience But in view of the fact that I had already been called "Damned Stupid" for not accepting Fred’s view of the World and then to be accused of having a "Hatred of Islam" followed by the accusation that Zionists strategy of "kill Arab scream anti-Semitism". I wonder why you support them. Implies that I have that view also and am intent on mass murder for Racial motives.
Nor do I take kindly to the accusation "You're in good company though, at the moment they're getting a lot of support from the American Hard Right Christians and the British BNP."
Hey, if you don't like me doing it to you don't do it to me, you started it.
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