Yet another school shooting in the USA.

[Flynn]

This time in Connecticut. Twenty children and six adults were shot dead today at an elementary school (equivalent of a primary school here). Truly awful news, made even worse for the time of year. My heart goes out to all affected by this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20730717

What also shocks me is the American attitude to guns. One person tried to use a shoe to blow up a plane, so now everyone has to remove their shoes in US airports, yet there have been thirty-one school shootings since the Columbine massacre in 1999 and nothing has changed regarding the ease of acquiring firearms in the US. It honestly beggars belief.

[secrets in symmetry]

I was out tonight with an American friend. On hearing about this, he commented that he could go out drinking on a Friday night - and buy a gun at a local store on his way home!

This happened in sensible America for goodness sake - it's not the Wild West, it's not the Bible Belt, it's civilised Connecticut! How can that happen?

It's truly awful....

[miss_mcd]

Those poor family's have lost loved ones and even their own BABYS at Christmas time! If that's not a good enough reason to straighten up the law on guns then I dunno what it will take!! :/ Rest In Peace to all those who lost their lives today

[M Swanson]

I'm devastated by this tragic news. So much pain, for so many people. :~(

We have strict gun control laws, but these atrocities still happen. We only have to think of the events of Dunblane, Cumbria and Hungerford, when 44 innocents lost their lives. It's not just in the USA that guns are freely available SiS. I lived in London for many years and it was always easy to buy one from the unscrupulous. Check out this report from the Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

[Flynn]

I'm devastated by this tragic news. So much pain, for so many people. :~(

We have strict gun control laws, but these atrocities still happen. We only have to think of the events of Dunblane, Cumbria and Hungerford, when 44 innocents lost their lives. It's not just in the USA that guns are freely available SiS. I lived in London for many years and it was always easy to buy one from the unscrupulous. Check out this report from the Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

It is true these things have happened here, but with nowhere near the frequency of the USA. Here is a recent comparison of the two countries with figures adjusted for population size:



Number of Murders, United States (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/murder_homicide.html), 2009: 15,241
Number of Murders by Firearms (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html), US, 2009: 9,146

Number of Murders, Britain, 2008* (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/16/crime-figures-recession-impact): 648 (Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,240 US murders)
Number of Murders by firearms (http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf), Britain, 2008* 39 (equivalent to 195 US murders)

The international comparisons show conclusively that fewer gun owners per capita produce not only fewer murders by firearm, but fewer murders per capita over all. In the case of Britain, firearms murders are 48 times fewer than in the US

*The Home office reported murder statistics in the UK for the 12 months to March 2009, but these are 12-month figures..

http://www.juancole.com/2011/01/over-9000-murders-by-gun-in-us-39-in-uk.html

[M Swanson]

It is true these things have happened here, but with nowhere near the frequency of the USA. Here is a recent comparison of the two countries with figures adjusted for population size:

Thanks for the stats Flynn. They certainly make sobering reading. This is a huge problem and I just don't think, even a complete ban, would take hundreds, possibly thousands of guns off our streets. I know how easily they could be purchased in London decades ago, and I've no reason to believe that anything has changed. In fact, as the article in the Guardian states, they can be obtained easily in any large town, or city! Whilst there are criminals, who are prepared to carry lethal weapons, the trade will almost certainly go on.

It's interesting, that Washington DC, is still considered to be, "the murder capital of the United States," despite legislation being passed in 1976, which banned the ownership of handguns and any other type of gun in the home, if it was unlocked and fully assembled. Not exactly encouraging! :~(

I don't know the answer to this one, but these figures for 2010 show what's not working. No surprise there!

A total of 308 people were convicted of carrying a firearm last year. But only 177 — or 57.5 per cent — got the mandatory five years.
A further 83 got shorter sentences, while the remaining 48 were NOT even jailed.

[M Swanson]

As more distressing news is revealed to day, I thought comments by Morgan Freeman made a lot of sense. This is part of what he said:


"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine?

Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

Well said Morgan.

[Slickly]

When this sort of thing happens in the United States America, we get wall-to-wall news coverage and everyone spouts an opinion.

When this happens in other places, equally distant, we hear very little and no-one feels compelled to comment.

For example, just a couple of weeks ago there was an attack at a school in China, which got a fleeting mention in the news - blink and you would have missed it. No comments appeared on here.

As an other example, for the past few weeks, scores and scores of children have been murdered in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Topic of news ? Nope. Topic of conversation and outpouring of grief here ? Nope. Demands that something be done about it ? Nope ?

Where's all of you trawling the web for statistics and celebrity comment for all the other tragedies in the world ?

Or is everyone else unpeople.

[Flynn]

When this sort of thing happens in the United States America, we get wall-to-wall news coverage and everyone spouts an opinion.

When this happens in other places, equally distant, we hear very little and no-one feels compelled to comment.

For example, just a couple of weeks ago there was an attack at a school in China, which got a fleeting mention in the news - blink and you would have missed it. No comments appeared on here.

As an other example, for the past few weeks, scores and scores of children have been murdered in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Topic of news ? Nope. Topic of conversation and outpouring of grief here ? Nope. Demands that something be done about it ? Nope ?

Where's all of you trawling the web for statistics and celebrity comment for all the other tragedies in the world ?

Or is everyone else unpeople.

The Chinese school attack was by a knifeman, and twenty-two children were injured. While still a chilling story, how does that compare to twenty, six and seven year old children shot multiple times each, by someone carrying a legally bought military grade firearm?

Are you suggesting China outlaws knives?

One last thing, I'm terribly sorry, but I didn't see the threads you started expressing your concern at the Congo killings and the China school knife attack.

[secrets in symmetry]

When this sort of thing happens in the United States America, we get wall-to-wall news coverage and everyone spouts an opinion.

When this happens in other places, equally distant, we hear very little and no-one feels compelled to comment.

For example, just a couple of weeks ago there was an attack at a school in China, which got a fleeting mention in the news - blink and you would have missed it. No comments appeared on here.

As an other example, for the past few weeks, scores and scores of children have been murdered in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Topic of news ? Nope. Topic of conversation and outpouring of grief here ? Nope. Demands that something be done about it ? Nope ?

Where's all of you trawling the web for statistics and celebrity comment for all the other tragedies in the world ?

Or is everyone else unpeople.You raise some interesting points there Slickly. I suppose many of us somehow feel closer to horrific events in America than we do to horrific events in China, the Congo or Syria. We shouldn't, but we do - and in my opinion we should change our attitudes.

[George Brims]

As more distressing news is revealed to day, I thought comments by Morgan Freeman made a lot of sense. This is part of what he said:


"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine?

Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

Well said Morgan.

Except...Morgan Freeman never said that. It's a hoax.
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/viral_morgan_freeman_shooting_rant_not_by_morgan_f reeman/

[M Swanson]

Thanks for the update George. I think it was probably somebody trying to cash in on the good name of Morgan, to give their thoughts more weight and coverage. But, I do still believe that much of what the writer wrote rings true.

[George Brims]

Actually I meant to say that too. It's a thoughtful post.

[M Swanson]

Yes, I agree with you George. I wonder if you'd like to watch this short clip, from the film 'Network.' I find it incredible that this was made over 36 years ago and despite all the 'progress,' which is claimed these days, it's still business as usual, in so many areas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q

[RecQuery]

Yes, I agree with you George. I wonder if you'd like to watch this short clip, from the film 'Network.' I find it incredible that this was made over 36 years ago and despite all the 'progress,' which is claimed these days, it's still business as usual, in so many areas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q

I like Network, particularly how he lost sight of his original message and became manipulated again. The news wants to keep you scared so you'll stay in and watch the news, it's a joke calling it news anyway considering so much of it is editorial, opinion and press releases. This is the same news that will tar and feather someone for being a little odd and then not apologise when they get it wrong. Still people are to blame more than the media because we buy-in to it and allow them to function.

Tonight at 11 - DOOM! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmLDxiI_dgs)

[M Swanson]

I like Network, particularly how he lost sight of his original message and became manipulated again. The news wants to keep you scared so you'll stay in and watch the news, it's a joke calling it news anyway considering so much of it is editorial, opinion and press releases. This is the same news that will tar and feather someone for being a little odd and then not apologise when they get it wrong. Still people are to blame more than the media because we buy-in to it and allow them to function.

So true! And so much more of the media is obsessed with trivia and a celebrity fixation. It was customary for me to watch the News on a daily basis, but I've long since given up on anything that comes after the top story has been aired. I'm not interested in sensationalist stories that seem to deliberately steer us away from important issues. I think 'Network,' predicted the birth of tabloid television. It may well have started with the arrival of the Jerry Springer Show and now, incredulously, he appears on Question Time, another dumb-downed programme I rarely have the patience to sit through. He'll be running for Parliament next. But you're right RecQuery, ultimately people are to blame. In not resisting, we are getting exactly what we deserve.

[oldmarine]

We live in a country (USA) where God has been kicked out of the classroom, but the naysayers ask "where was God when all this happened?

[M Swanson]

Much the same is happening in Britain OldMarine. I believe we are fast becoming a Godless society with Christianity being attacked from all sides, whilst others spread their tentacles and flourish. Even our own church leaders are often complicit. God help us all!

[Flynn]

I'm more concerned about guns in classrooms than gods in classrooms.

[M Swanson]

Are you? Then what's your answer to guns in the classroom, or anywhere else for that matter? I gave the figures earlier that prove that banning them doesn't work, or nobody would be able to purchase them on the corner of any English street. They can and do, despite it being a criminal offence here. No solution there, then. No gun ever aimed itself at a person and pulled the trigger. That's the work of the murderer!

The shootings at Newtown School, happened, imo, because nobody addressed the serious mental health issues of one deeply distressed lad. Nothing new there! Mental Health has always been the poor relation of the NHS and has never received the funds it so desperately needs. It's never been a priority.

As far as God's concerned. All I know is that I was reared in the Christian faith. I was taught from an early age of the sanctity of life and the difference between right and wrong. It has stood me in good stead all my life. I make no apology for that and am not, as so many are, hesitant to declare my beliefs. My faith is the most precious gift I own. I regret its dismissal from the classroom. Other faith schools are free to worship at will and I don't read many complaints about that. Perhaps nobody dare?

[golach]

As far as God's concerned. All I know is that I was reared in the Christian faith. I was taught from an early age of the sanctity of life and the difference between right and wrong. It has stood me in good stead all my life. I make no apology for that and am not, as so many are, hesitant to declare my beliefs. My faith is the most precious gift I own. I regret its dismissal from the classroom. Other faith schools are free to worship at will and I don't read many complaints about that. Perhaps nobody dare?
Well said, although I am not particularly religious I fully endorse your thinking, if more people thought as you, our world would be a better place.

[M Swanson]

Thank you Golach. Like you I'm not particularly religious and have issues with the church and some parts of the Bible, but despite many tests, I have never lost my faith. If I am wrong in my beliefs, then I have never knowingly harmed anyone and that is because of my Christian upbringing. It's not up for negotiation. It's just the way it is and I thank God for it.

[Flynn]

Are you? Then what's your answer to guns in the classroom, or anywhere else for that matter? I gave the figures earlier that prove that banning them doesn't work, or nobody would be able to purchase them on the corner of any English street. They can and do, despite it being a criminal offence here. No solution there, then. No gun ever aimed itself at a person and pulled the trigger. That's the work of the murderer!

The shootings at Newtown School, happened, imo, because nobody addressed the serious mental health issues of one deeply distressed lad. Nothing new there! Mental Health has always been the poor relation of the NHS and has never received the funds it so desperately needs. It's never been a priority.

As far as God's concerned. All I know is that I was reared in the Christian faith. I was taught from an early age of the sanctity of life and the difference between right and wrong. It has stood me in good stead all my life. I make no apology for that and am not, as so many are, hesitant to declare my beliefs. My faith is the most precious gift I own. I regret its dismissal from the classroom. Other faith schools are free to worship at will and I don't read many complaints about that. Perhaps nobody dare?

So the answer is what? More guns? Maybe give all teachers guns, perhaps send all those primary school kids to school with a packed gun instead of a packed lunch? Oh, and make them pray a bit so when someone gets shot dead it's ok, because they prayed. The fact is such atrocities are extremely rare in the UK because we have strict gun control. After Dunblane the British government banned all cartridge ammunition handguns regardless of calibre. There have been no school shooting since. After Columbine the US government did nothing. There have been thirty-one school shootings since.

[cptdodger]

We live in a country (USA) where God has been kicked out of the classroom, but the naysayers ask "where was God when all this happened?

So, from that then, I take it, had been prayers said that morning in that school, the guy would have turned up, armed to the hilt, realising that prayers were being said, gone and found another school to murder children and adults ? I highly doubt it. This had nothing at all to do with religion.

[changilass]

There have been more people killed in the name of religion than anything else.

You don't need religion to know that murder is wrong.

[M Swanson]

'I don't believe that killers kill because of their religion. Neither does a lack of religious convictions cause one to run wild in the streets with a bloody axe and a torch. Religion is a convenient banner for many to carry, but there are plenty of other banners available as well, and if it wasn't religion, they'd do their deeds under some other justification, if they care to even have one. The real reason they do their evil deeds is that they're human. Humans are very smart, very capable; and when we want something, we generally find some way to get it, even if that means killing someone or committing genocide.

I'm convinced that any discussion of the religious causes of genocide is a divisive distraction from the more worthwhile investigation into the true cultural and psychological causes. We are human beings, and we need to understand our human motivations. I choose not to become embroiled in a debate of what religion has killed more people in history, because it doesn't matter. The way I see it, you might as well debate what colour underpants are worn by the largest number of killers, and try to draw a causal relationship there as well. Religion does not cause you to kill people, nor does it prevent you from killing people. Let's stop pretending that it does either.'

[M Swanson]

The most popular statement being bandied about in America today, is "if guns are outlawed, only the outlaws would have guns." I think much of that is true and by banning them from everyone else, there could well be a blood-bath. Guns will always be available and gun-running will become big business, imo. People will still be shot and maimed, or killed. This has proven to be the case in many countries, such as Uganda. In 1970 gun control was introduced and between 1971 & 1979, 300,000 Christians were slaughtered. It strips away the right of the innocent to defend themselves and hands over power to those who have no value for human beings.

And should we also banish any type of knife, because of the high incidence of murders where they're used? Or hammers, because they too can be used as a lethal weapon? Or ropes? Or bows and arrows? Or hundreds more items?

Or, perhaps we should start to address the real social and cultural problems which underpin such acts of barbarity. IMO liberalism has much to answer for.

[Flynn]

The most popular statement being bandied about in America today, is "if guns are outlawed, only the outlaws would have guns." I think much of that is true and by banning them from everyone else, there could well be a blood-bath. Guns will always be available and gun-running will become big business, imo. People will still be shot and maimed, or killed. This has proven to be the case in many countries, such as Uganda. In 1970 gun control was introduced and between 1971 & 1979, 300,000 Christians were slaughtered. It strips away the right of the innocent to defend themselves and hands over power to those who have no value for human beings.

And should we also banish any type of knife, because of the high incidence of murders where they're used? Or hammers, because they too can be used as a lethal weapon? Or ropes? Or bows and arrows? Or hundreds more items?

Or, perhaps we should start to address the real social and cultural problems which underpin such acts of barbarity. IMO liberalism has much to answer for.

So arm everyone to the teeth, give everyone guns, more and more guns, that's the answer?

The Uk has no gun culture, consequently we have a very low rate of gun crime. But give everyone guns and we'd be seeing the same level of slaughter the US sees every year.

THIRTY THOUSAND. That's the number of Americans alive today who will be dead by firearms by the end of 2014. Thirty thousand.

[cptdodger]

The most popular statement being bandied about in America today, is "if guns are outlawed, only the outlaws would have guns." I think much of that is true and by banning them from everyone else, there could well be a blood-bath. Guns will always be available and gun-running will become big business, imo. People will still be shot and maimed, or killed. This has proven to be the case in many countries, such as Uganda. In 1970 gun control was introduced and between 1971 & 1979, 300,000 Christians were slaughtered. It strips away the right of the innocent to defend themselves and hands over power to those who have no value for human beings.


And there you have it. That is the warped logic Americans use every day so that their right to bear arms is not taken away from them. And yet they stand there looking all shocked when yet another massacre of school age children occurs, again and again. I used to think America was a civilised country, I am seriously beginning to question that now.

[George Brims]

Actually that tired trite phrase about guns and outlaws has been absent from the debate in the US the last few days (I'm in California, for those who might not know). The religious gobbledegook about the schools being struck because God is not in the schools is however quite widespread. Various pontificators have blamed the gays, the abortion doctors, and liberal politics for the massacre. The gun lobby are all either running off the the gun store to stock up in anticipation of a ban, or rabbiting on about how they need to arm the teachers.

[M Swanson]

Interesting post George, especially as you are in California. In order to judge whether Godlessness is a contributor to today's problems, I guess we have to compare the times when RE was taught in schools to the lack of it today. I would say there has been a marked deterioration in moral values and an erosion of the difference between right and wrong in Britain and wonder if the same holds true in your country? Do you think a ban on guns will stop the killing? I notice that you state that the gun lobby are "running off to the store to stock up," and doesn't this in itself speak volumes? I've no doubt that the criminal fraternity would be doing exactly the same, wouldn't they? Are you so confident, that a blood-bath won't happen, if the ban gets passed? Sorry there's so many questions George, but I do think that the opinion of somebody on the scene is worth so much more than from folks who aren't. It is, after all, your lives and your country.

[secrets in symmetry]

Never before has one been ignored so soon....

[Flynn]

Interesting post George, especially as you are in California. In order to judge whether Godlessness is a contributor to today's problems, I guess we have to compare the times when RE was taught in schools to the lack of it today. I would say there has been a marked deterioration in moral values and an erosion of the difference between right and wrong in Britain and wonder if the same holds true in your country? Do you think a ban on guns will stop the killing? I notice that you state that the gun lobby are "running off to the store to stock up," and doesn't this in itself speak volumes? I've no doubt that the criminal fraternity would be doing exactly the same, wouldn't they? Are you so confident, that a blood-bath won't happen, if the ban gets passed? Sorry there's so many questions George, but I do think that the opinion of somebody on the scene is worth so much more than from folks who aren't. It is, after all, your lives and your country.

I'm 50, I well remember RE 'lessons'. No-one took them seriously or even listened. Mostly we used them for revising other subjects or doing those other subjects homework, that or we went to the chip shop because RE lessons were seen as a waste of time. To this day neither I - nor any of the people I went to school with - have murdered or robbed anyone, and we all know right from wrong. How do we know right from wrong? Because our parents taught us right from wrong, not some mumbling bloke in a dress.

Here are the top most recent annual murder rates by country.

Brazil 40,974
India 40,752
Mexico 25,757
Ethiopia 20,239
Indonesia 18,963
Nigeria 18,422
South Africa 15,940
Columbia 15,459
Russia 14,574
Pakistan 13,860
DR Congo 13,558
China 13,410
Venezuela 13,080
United States 12,996

All of those - with the possible exception of China - have strongly religious populations, so the argument that a lack of religion is the cause is nonsense.

[M Swanson]

Oh Dear! These figures, in themselves tend to prove that religion plays an important role in the life of billions of people. Let's take one country in the list, India. It has a very strong religious culture and whilst one murder is one too many, 40,752 out of a population of nearly 1 1/4 BILLION does in no way suggest that the beliefs taught to them at home and in school has been a failure. As there's no breakdown of figures, perhaps you can let us know, how many of those 40K suffered a mental health problem, or rejected the teachings of their religion, or how many murdered in the name of their God? I'm not referring to any scapegoating here!

Like you, I was blessed with RE lessons, but I'm sure that the vast majority of us did listen and opened our minds to the possibility of there being a God. As far as I know, nobody has committed a murder either, despite any beliefs we may have. Have you any idea, when the last killing took place in Britain for religious reasons? Darned if I can. So not much to be learned, I suppose.

BTW. If you are a non-believer then fine, it's nowt to do with me, I certainly don't hate you for it, but at least your school education gave you enough lessons to decide that for yourself. I suspect we may pick up a little more than we realise. But, why do you hate the fact that others, like me, do believe? What harm have we done you? I wonder if this also applies to other faiths, or is it just the Christian faith that you consider fair game?

[M Swanson]

:lol: I know where you're coming from SiS! [lol]

[Flynn]

Those are the total figures for intentional homicide (defined as unlawful death purposefully inflicted on a person by another person).

If you want figures per 100,000 of population I have those too.


Nowhere did I say I 'hate that others believe'. To be specific what I hate is those who 'believe' thinking they have the right to impose those beliefs on the rest of society.

Anyway to get back on topic, the fact is the absence of prayers in the classroom had nothing to do with the slaughter of twenty young children and their teachers. What did have a LOT to do with that slaughter was the free and easy access to firearms.

[M Swanson]

Many thanks for the offer, Flynn, but I think the figures stated previously are sufficient. But, if you show the stats that specifically link religion, (and other issues outside of faith), to the 40K murders in the India example, that would be useful. I would have thought that anything else would not be needed in this particular discussion!

None of my teachers "imposed" anything on me! We were certainly taught about the difference between right and wrong; tolerance, forgiveness and discipline, of course, but we were never obligated to believe it and always had the right to reject it all, later in our lives. As obviously you were and did! Your choice!

I don't know why you insist on narrowing the debate to "prayers." Unless you think it adds more weight to your argument. Religion is so much more than that, to many of us. I'm still waiting to read your answer to killers using guns. You must have some ideas, that you can put on the table, surely. Even if they're centred on the "free and easy access to firearms," in Britain despite our stringent laws here. Let alone in America.

Oh! and finally. Any answer to whether you consider only Christianity to be fair game? Nobody ever answers that one.

[Flynn]

Oh! and finally. Any answer to whether you consider only Christianity to be fair game? Nobody ever answers that one.

I would have thought the inclusion of muslim and hindu countries in the previous list answered that question.

[M Swanson]

Not really, but close, Flynn. :) So, you would include Muslims and Hindus in the same criticisms and condemnation of religion in schools as you do Christians then?

[Flynn]

Not really, but close, Flynn. :) So, you would include Muslims and Hindus in the same criticisms and condemnation of religion in schools as you do Christians then?

I would include ALL religions equally. But this is an entirely different topic.

Those children were killed by someone with easy access to firearms. If he had not had that easy access those children and their teachers would be alive today.

[M Swanson]

I don't agree Flynn. Old Marine writes of Americans who put part of the blame on an education system, which excludes God from classrooms. Maybe folks believe that addressing this omission is one way forward to reducing crime? It certainly has contributed to many keeping on the straight and narrow, imo. I believe it is relevant to the topic and you have added your own thoughts on the subject too. I'm reassured to note, that you include all faiths and not specifically Christianity. It makes a refreshing change from the usual bashing it takes.

I live in the real world, Flynn, as too, I'm sure many Americans do. They have a right to bear arms and yet again, I ask you, will banning them remove them from the streets? Will there ever be a time when there is not "easy access to firearms?" If they were banned tomorrow, would there never be another tragedy such as Newtown School? To me, banning them will not be the answer. It's like using a sticking plaster on a ruptured artery. If you don't find the cause and treat it, it will never stop haemorrhaging. People make guns; load them and pull the trigger. So any ideas on changing that?

[Rheghead]

I ask you, will banning them remove them from the streets? Will there ever be a time when there is not "easy access to firearms?" If they were banned tomorrow, would there never be another tragedy such as Newtown School? To me, banning them will not be the answer. It's like using a sticking plaster on a ruptured artery. If you don't find the cause and treat it, it will never stop haemorrhaging. People make guns; load them and pull the trigger. So any ideas on changing that?

As far as I am aware, the US took their right to bear arms straight from British law.

But then after the Napoleonic wars, the British government brought in restrictions on bearing weapons because too many ex-soldiers were going around killing people with ex-army issue and captured weaponry that were in circulation. These laws remained in place until further restrictions in the 1950s to 1990s (offensive weapons acts, semi automatic and handgun restrictions) helped to get another load of weapons off the streets.

I'm a firm believer that these Acts of Parliament helped to mould the general Public's attitude to weapon ownership and so the UK is a much safer place to live than if the Government had not acted and maintained the right to bear arms. History shows that the government can help to save lives in respect to weapon ownership.

So yes, you are right, legislation doesn't stop the Dunblanes and Hungerford massacres but it does help to make them few and far between and a lot of innocent people are alive today and totally unaware why.

[M Swanson]

Thanks for the potted history, Rheg. There's information in there that I wasn't aware of.

It's difficult to know what the outcome would have been if restrictions weren't put on gun ownership, but whilst it's perfectly possible that some parts of Britain may be safer for having them, there is a thriving gun culture in London and other major cities. As you say, legislation won't stop the Dunblanes and I don't believe it ever will. The psychotic will always slip through the net.

America's a totally different ball game. There was never any chance of blood being shed because new laws were passed here, but I fear that may not be the case if the same happens in the States. Such action should have been taken a long time ago, before it had a chance to get to this situation. They will need to address the root causes that make shooting and using a knife an easy option. That's one tall order.

[cptdodger]

America's a totally different ball game. There was never any chance of blood being shed because new laws were passed here, but I fear that may not be the case if the same happens in the States. Such action should have been taken a long time ago, before it had a chance to get to this situation. They will need to address the root causes that make shooting and using a knife an easy option. That's one tall order.

Yes you are right, action should have been taken a long time ago - straight after the first school massacre. One person presumably their President must take a stand and bring in strict gun laws. The root cause of this mess they find themselves in, is they think it is completely normal to be armed to the hilt - do they all really need hand guns, shotguns and automatic weapons to protect themselves ? No. And if they do not accept that, then they had better be prepared to bury the next lot of children that get massacred, all because that to them is an acceptable by product of a gun culture.

[Flynn]

there is a thriving gun culture in London and other major cities.

No, there isn't. There's a thriving news media that plasters any shooting across the news far and wide, but the risk of being involved in a shooting are extremely unlikely.


TheUnited Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in theworld with 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with afirearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the UnitedStates' 3.0 (over 40 times higher) and to Germany's 0.21 (3 timeshigher).

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

[M Swanson]

Chuff. There is a gun culture in this country. In London alone, there are 250 street gangs, some of whom are known to own guns. A friend of mine was shot in the backside for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are plenty of shootings on record if you'd care to Google.

[cptdodger]

Chuff. There is a gun culture in this country. In London alone, there are 250 street gangs, some of whom are known to own guns. A friend of mine was shot in the backside for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are plenty of shootings on record if you'd care to Google.

You honestly believe Britain as a whole has the same gun culture that America does, do you ? And as for the "250 street gangs in London, some of which own guns" you know that for a fact do you ?

[M Swanson]

Uhm! Where have I ever stated that "Britain has the same gun culture that America does?" Of course the different laws would make that nonsense. But that doesn't mean that Britain doesn't have its own gun culture. It does! Especially where street gangs are concerned. Try Googling! There's plenty of evidence there, if you need it. Perhaps, this one will give you an idea of the real situation. I highlighted London, because I lived in one of the most violent boroughs for over a decade and know firsthand the facts and yes, some gang members do carry firearms. I've seen a couple of "pieces," myself. Welcome to the real world.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/100147277/londons-drug-gangs-are-now-renting-guns-for-their-turf-wars/

[cptdodger]

I highlighted London, because I lived in one of the most violent boroughs for over a decade and know firsthand the facts and yes, some gang members do carry firearms. I've seen a couple of "pieces," myself. Welcome to the real world.


Which borough ? or did you just google this information yourself?

[cptdodger]

Welcome to the real world


And in reply to this patronising comment. I lived in London myself in not too spectacular an area, and I was involved in the Security Industry there, and in Kent. So, yeah, I think I know what the "real world" looks like.

[M Swanson]

Any interesting comments to make, on the link I provided, which proves that there is a gun culture in London and other cities in Britain even? :)

[cptdodger]

Any interesting comments to make, on the link I provided, which proves that there is a gun culture in London and other cities in Britain even? :)

Without even looking at the link - it must be true if it's in a newspaper, written by a journalist, because they are all upstanding citizens.

[M Swanson]

Can't agree with you there! I never take any newspaper at face value. :roll: Perhaps this statement from the Metropolitan Police, Trident Gang Crime Command, may be more to your liking? Straight from the horses mouth! Plenty more where that came from too. Not that I need it. I rest my case! ;)

How many gangs are there in London?[/h]According to our information there are 250 recognised gangs in London, comprising of about 4,500 people. They range from organised criminal networks involved in Class A drugs supply and firearms, to street-based gangs involved in violence and personal robbery. This relatively small number of people is responsible for approximately 22% of serious violence, 17% of robbery, 50% of shootings and 14% of rape in London.

[cptdodger]

Clearly sarcasm is lost on you, so you just carry on trying to convince everybody how dangerous London is, if that is what makes you happy. Meanwhile in the US, the burials of the slaughtered children continue... And will do forever more, until something is done about about their archaic gun laws.

[Flynn]

Well the NRA have made a public statement. Those inbred, redneck fools think the solution is even more guns. Morons. Utter morons.

The NRA answer to obesity would be "More burgers for everyone."

[Southern-Gal]

Cant believe the news tonight! They are thinking they need an armed guard in every school. How awful. Id take mine out of school if that was the case over here.

[cptdodger]

I've just watched it on the news. That's clearly going to help the kids get over this trauma - making them come face to face with a guy with a gun. What is wrong with these people, he was saying they have to protect the rights of the law abiding gun owners, well, I'm sure that bloke's mother was law abiding, but these gun licences do not take into account there could be a nutter living in the house.