View Full Version : Why No Historic Abuse Investigations Here?
Looking at the Daily Mail (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paedophile-ring-a-paedo-palace-where-vips-1469127) today, at yet another investigation into abuse and subsequent cover up by the rich and powerful I got to wondering why all these scandals, Jimmy Saville, Ciril Smith etc. are south of the border.
Is it because the abuse of children and subsequent abuse of power by the establishment stops at Gretna? Or is it because it is still going on?
This is an interesting read http://www.tomminogue.com/index.php/first-page-edit-this-title?blog=8
It doesnt surprise me that Thomas Hamilton will have had contact at QVS because before he went on his murderous shooting spree he led a normal life. He worked with young boys and was known throughout his community for it. The guy was, like Jmmy Saville, a creep but there's no law against being a creep. Hamilton may have been a creep but with the benefit of hindsight no one would have given him a firearms certificate. There doesnt have to be a conspiracy behind human events.
I'm surprised that some of the abused boys from QVS hav'nt come forward to confirm the housemasters accusations. His story begins with serious accusations against devient toffs using the school for their sexual perversions and then by the time we get to the Freemasons and Thomas Hamilton the less discerning reader may well be taken in by the story and not notice the lack of evidence.
A story like that needs proof. There's none. Only the bloggers belief in the housemasters story.
It doesnt surprise me that Thomas Hamilton will have had contact at QVS because before he went on his murderous shooting spree he led a normal life. He worked with young boys and was known throughout his community for it. The guy was, like Jmmy Saville, a creep but there's no law against being a creep. Hamilton may have been a creep but with the benefit of hindsight no one would have given him a firearms certificate. There doesnt have to be a conspiracy behind human events.
I'm surprised that some of the abused boys from QVS hav'nt come forward to confirm the housemasters accusations. His story begins with serious accusations against devient toffs using the school for their sexual perversions and then by the time we get to the Freemasons and Thomas Hamilton the less discerning reader may well be taken in by the story and not notice the lack of evidence.
A story like that needs proof. There's none. Only the bloggers belief in the housemasters story.
You know that no boy from QVS ever complained of being abused, how do you know that?
Strange that none of the children abused by Jimmy Saville of Cyril Smith ever complained, oh they did, we just didn't hear about it.
So I take it you are in the abuse of children and power by the establishment stops at Gretna camp.
The most telling thing for me is why, after Hamilton carried out his atrocities, was the subsequent inquiry details to be withheld for 100 years? The whole point of a public inquiry is meant to reveal to the public the findings of said inquiry, not hide it away, which leads us to think of conspiracy theories and actions carried out to protect the guilty. So the Establishment, which is riddled with Freemasonry, investigates itself and comes up a report no one can see. How convenient.
Every walk of life is sick with the cancer of Freemasonry, from the very top of the Establishment, down. Many members of my family, living and dead, have been or are presently Freemasons. It sickens me that they can be a member of such a society that will do all it can to protect the guilty, while the victims go unheard. Many times over the years we read of reports involving Freemasonry, and often they are quickly forgotten about. One of my uncles stopped buying the Sunday Mail because it printed an article showing Freemasonry in a bad light. Why? Probably because as the saying goes, 'the truth hurts'.
Just because there is no hard evidence doesn't mean to say there is no truth in the allegations, in cases such as that detailed, the truth will be hard to get at, if at all. Freemasonry is full of bad <insert expletive> that will do all they can to protect themselves and their brethren, it will always be that way, you'll never beat them, and often you'll find careers ruined and reputations discredited.
And what is the attraction of Freemasonry? Two of my brothers are Freemasons, the oldest has been in it for 40 years, having joined at 18 yrs of age. The other was very much outspoken against Freemasonry until last year, when it came as a shock to hear that he had joined. I asked him why he had joined after all those years of being against them, all he said was "It's better to be in the club than out". A rather poor excuse I feel but all I'm ever going to get from him.
I've read many books and reports over the years about Freemasonry, about how it's rotten to the core, and in every case there's always a Gleeber popping up with their pithy putdowns, denying any wrongdoing. They can't all be conspiracy theories, can they? They can't all be lies, can they? But who am I to do anything about it? I'm just an average guy in an average town, much like that Housemaster, who will listen to me? So many questions and so few answers.
I've learned many things over the years in my investigations into Freemasonry, and the more I've read the greater the distaste, that The Great and The Good are anything but that.
changilass
02-Dec-12, 17:27
There is not one section of the population that is either whiter than white or blacker than black. Tarring every one with the same brush is how cover ups happen.
So I take it you are in the abuse of children and power by the establishment stops at Gretna camp.
Dont be silly Fred. If you can deduce that from what I said then I would urge others to treat some of your opinions with care. :eek:
The whole thing about threads like this is it doesnt matter whether its true or not. Mud sticks and theres always plenty joxvilles to give stories with no evidence, authority. I'm always wary when I hear stories like Freds link until theres no doubt about its authenticity. When I first heard about Jimmy Saville I wasnt surprised but I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a few days until it was obvious there was head-in-the-sand mentallity operating at the BBC during his time there. Not only there though. Savilles touch reached far into our communities.
I'm not close to these things as they happen although Im in no doubt that these types of Pedeophile rings exist. I only know about them through the internet or the media and my inquisitivness is questioned to the limits when I hear stories like the housemasters. I could find nothing in the story that confirmed the activities at the school were anything other than normal and Thomas Hamilton being there was normal too. I have to make my mind up whether to believe something like that without any evidence and I need more evidence. Anything at all will do apart from an assurance of authenticity from an internet blogger.
As a matter of interest which bit of the housemasters story convinced you there was any truth in it and the freemasons were involved in a pedeophile ring at the school?
Dont be silly Fred. If you can deduce that from what I said then I would urge others to treat some of your opinions with care. :eek:
The whole thing about threads like this is it doesnt matter whether its true or not. Mud sticks and theres always plenty joxvilles to give stories with no evidence, authority. I'm always wary when I hear stories like Freds link until theres no doubt about its authenticity. When I first heard about Jimmy Saville I wasnt surprised but I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a few days until it was obvious there was head-in-the-sand mentallity operating at the BBC during his time there. Not only there though. Savilles touch reached far into our communities.
I'm not close to these things as they happen although Im in no doubt that these types of Pedeophile rings exist. I only know about them through the internet or the media and my inquisitivness is questioned to the limits when I hear stories like the housemasters. I could find nothing in the story that confirmed the activities at the school were anything other than normal and Thomas Hamilton being there was normal too. I have to make my mind up whether to believe something like that without any evidence and I need more evidence. Anything at all will do apart from an assurance of authenticity from an internet blogger.
As a matter of interest which bit of the housemasters story convinced you there was any truth in it and the freemasons were involved in a pedeophile ring at the school?
All I did was ask why we aren't having the same investigations into historic child abuse in Scotland as they are south of the border.
Did you have an answer?
changilass
03-Dec-12, 00:03
Maybe they don't have the level of evidence here (yet) that they do south of the border.
Maybe they don't have the level of evidence here (yet) that they do south of the border.
I think the purpose of the investigation is to get the evidence.
All I did was ask why we aren't having the same investigations into historic child abuse in Scotland as they are south of the border.
Did you have an answer?
I gave you an answer. You may not like it but its an answer.
I gave you an answer. You may not like it but its an answer.
Well no you didn't. There are enough case south of the border now, Jimmy Saville, Cyril Smith, Bishop of Lewes, care homes in Wales and Jersey plus the link I posted to see that both abuse and cover ups were widespread.
If investigations down south are revealing so much don't you think we should be having some investigations here as well? Or do you believe it just didn't happen here?
Fred - how do you know there arent investigations going on as we type this? often this type of investigation is quiet until such a time as they have enough credible evidence to make a statement.
Surely there would have to be complaints made before an investigation?
These could be ongoing.....
And wasn't there a case on Orkney a few years ago which involved some children being dragged from their beds in the middle of the night, traumatised for life probably....??!!
So, it would seem, these things do happen in Scotland and the Isles too.
So I take it you are in the abuse of children and power by the establishment stops at Gretna camp.
English and Scottish law are different in many respects, but I'd be surprised if the Scottish legal system can't or won't deal with such issues.
The police have a legal duty to act on any complaint made to them.
If a complaint has been made, it will have been acted upon and recorded as such.
All I see in that piece is accusation. Before it is a crime, accusations must be proved.
Fred - how do you know there arent investigations going on as we type this? often this type of investigation is quiet until such a time as they have enough credible evidence to make a statement.
None of the investigations down south are being kept quiet.
And wasn't there a case on Orkney a few years ago which involved some children being dragged from their beds in the middle of the night, traumatised for life probably....??!!
Yes but the people who had their children wrenched from them were not members of the establishment and were guilty of nothing more than being English.
It took them a long time to get their children back too, it seems some people have to prove their innocence to get justice.
English and Scottish law are different in many respects, but I'd be surprised if the Scottish legal system can't or won't deal with such issues.
The police have a legal duty to act on any complaint made to them.
If a complaint has been made, it will have been acted upon and recorded as such.
All I see in that piece is accusation. Before it is a crime, accusations must be proved.
Complaints were made against Jimmy Saville, complaints were made against Cyril Smith, there was a half hearted investigation then it was swept under the carpet.
Who is going to protect the innocents if it is the establishment doing the abusing, who is going to conduct the investigation?
changilass
03-Dec-12, 10:35
Not sure why you bothered making the opening post a question, when all you do is trash any reply made, unless of course it agrees with your theory.
If you already know everything why ask questions?
This is a discussion board, not your personal lecture room.
Not sure why you bothered making the opening post a question, when all you do is trash any reply made, unless of course it agrees with your theory.
If you already know everything why ask questions?
This is a discussion board, not your personal lecture room.
Because I believe that young innocent vulnerable children are sexually, physically and mentally abused by people in power in Scotland just as they were in England and I think that if enough people believe the same something could be done about it here as well.
I think a lot of other people believe the same as me but would rather look the other way and pretend it isn't happening.
Because I believe that young innocent vulnerable children are sexually, physically and mentally abused by people in power in Scotland just as they were in England and I think that if enough people believe the same something could be done about it here as well.
I think a lot of other people believe the same as me but would rather look the other way and pretend it isn't happening.
Do you have proof of this? If so please enlighten us, we all would like to be as knowledgeable as you seem to be.
changilass
03-Dec-12, 11:02
I had already worked that bit out Fred, I just think that the way you go about things does an injustice to your cause (not just on this thread).
Just as I don't know what you are doing in the background, neither do you know what other orgers are doing, with regards to this or any other issue.
In the present climate, I don't think that there is many as would look the other way. What is happening in the south will hopefully give people courage to come forward.
I just wondered why you made it a question rather than a statement?
None of the investigations down south are being kept quiet. Not now they arent - if we take the Cyril Smith case this was only announced after the decision had been made to uphold the allegations that the victims made. Do you think they took the file down off the shelf and blew the dust off it and called a press conference? I think there was probably a complete review of the case, further interviews and advice sought before they phoned the BBC. We only see the end product on many of these things.
Do you have proof of this? If so please enlighten us, we all would like to be as knowledgeable as you seem to be.
I'm sure a lot of people here have been asking themselves "how on earth did people like Jimmy Saville and Cyril Smith get away with it for all those years".
I think you just answered their question.
I had already worked that bit out Fred, I just think that the way you go about things does an injustice to your cause (not just on this thread).
Just as I don't know what you are doing in the background, neither do you know what other orgers are doing, with regards to this or any other issue.
In the present climate, I don't think that there is many as would look the other way. What is happening in the south will hopefully give people courage to come forward.
I just wondered why you made it a question rather than a statement?
Because I chose to.
Now how come you would rather talk about me than the subject?
Not now they arent - if we take the Cyril Smith case this was only announced after the decision had been made to uphold the allegations that the victims made. Do you think they took the file down off the shelf and blew the dust off it and called a press conference? I think there was probably a complete review of the case, further interviews and advice sought before they phoned the BBC. We only see the end product on many of these things.
So how long do you think it is going to be before we start hearing of cases of historic child abuse being investigated in Scotland then?
About an hour and a half Fred. Bit longer if we have a bite of lunch first.
I'm sure a lot of people here have been asking themselves "how on earth did people like Jimmy Saville and Cyril Smith get away with it for all those years".
I think you just answered their question.
LMAO is that the best you can come up with?
So how long do you think it is going to be before we start hearing of cases of historic child abuse being investigated in Scotland then?
I would think we would hear about any cases of historic child abuse as and when there are details to tell us. To be honest fred I am less worried about historic cases than the hundreds of children being abused today. . There are children phoning childline, the samaritans and other help lines who need help NOW. Rather than spend my time getting all worked up about some blog which is not written by a victim or even the housemaster concerned I would rather work to help victims. By doing that we automatically help those who were abused in the past by creating an environment where people feel they will be believed and dealt with compassionately.
I would think we would hear about any cases of historic child abuse as and when there are details to tell us. To be honest fred I am less worried about historic cases than the hundreds of children being abused today. . There are children phoning childline, the samaritans and other help lines who need help NOW. Rather than spend my time getting all worked up about some blog which is not written by a victim or even the housemaster concerned I would rather work to help victims. By doing that we automatically help those who were abused in the past by creating an environment where people feel they will be believed and dealt with compassionately.
I'm sure the investigations down south are not happening just for the hell of it. I hope they will lead to a better understanding of how it could happen and changes to procedures and the law to prevent it happening again.
But here we have a different law, how are we going to get changes made to that?
I would think we would hear about any cases of historic child abuse as and when there are details to tell us. To be honest fred I am less worried about historic cases than the hundreds of children being abused today. . There are children phoning childline, the samaritans and other help lines who need help NOW. Rather than spend my time getting all worked up about some blog which is not written by a victim or even the housemaster concerned I would rather work to help victims. By doing that we automatically help those who were abused in the past by creating an environment where people feel they will be believed and dealt with compassionately.
Spot on, squidge.
What happened decades ago, when laws were different should not be judged according to the mores of today.....hindsight is twenty/twenty vision not applicable to the reality of the time before ours, but which are more and more being judged by a 21st century mores vastly different to that in the late 50's and later. Been there, done that, kicked nuts when required and laughed at "weapons" released from trousers. I'm not saying that the mindset in law was right, by any means...but it was what it was at the time. And that time was not 2012. We have more than enough problems now to make one wonder why there is such fixation on the past, particularly when many of the alleged perpetrators are no longer alive to be punished...and why we are spending silly money and clogging up police personnel for no really useful purpose.
I'm pretty sure that there will be many incidents in Scotland which should be investigated...likely many more in England as well....but we don't have a large enough police force to investigate stuff solely on the word of people who "think" or "have heard" or "believe" something was/is going on. If we did, we would have no unemployment in Scotland (or the rest of the UK) at all..they'd all be in the police force investigating people's beliefs against other people.
It is easy for people sitting here on forums being outraged at possibilities that something happened and was being "covered up" by the police, the Freemasons, the Government, the Justice system et al, in a situation when those to whom it is purported to have happened haven't complained to the police....or to any other authority which could oblige the police to take action. Without at the very least, complaints/proof/evidence/ from decades ago on which to base a prosecution, the idea now appears to be that a media, whatever the media, trial is acceptable. And being tried in the court of public opinion is not a trial....it is the modern day equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch-hunts in a population which can't differentiate a paedophile from a pediatrician..and would treat the one the same as they would treat the other..and that would be violently.....as phile does not read to the terminally thick any different to iatrician.
We have gone full circle, from believing nothing that young people (or women) have alleged and couldn't be proved to the level of enough evidence to sustain a successful prosecution under the requirements of the law to accepting every damn thing a young person (or woman) says and deciding that proving anything is not important. The media can trash lives just as easily as being jailed as a result of any "proof" can..and they have increasingly over the decades. The accusation in the media is the reality, for the person accused certainly...and definitely for the sheeple who do band-wagon jumping to the level of inanity.....the fact that there is no trial doesn't appear to indicate to the irrational public that the poor sod trashed all over the media, of all kinds, didn't actually do anything wrong under the law, because if he/she had, there would have been a trial at least.
How many of the people posting on here lauding the premise of the OP, based on his link, would be chuffed to bits if the bloke next door, because he didn't like you, decided that, because he perceived that there was just a possibility that when you were away from home, you were engaged in abusing kids (or raping women), and reported that suspicion to the police...and as a result the fact you have been interviewed equates to guilt simply because you were interviewed by the police and that "fact" turned up all over the papers? Maybe it is just the way my mind works, but I don't think that anything other than definite charges instigated by the prosecution services should be reported at all....ever. We don't NEED to know the folk the cops drag in just because they are frantically trying to find someone to blame, or even those they have dragged in and eventually charged with a crime until there is a trial and a verdict.
The Daily Mail, the Daily Express,the Sun, the Daily Record and other irrational red-tops (and some newspapers who wouldn't describe themselves as red-tops or irrational, but report "news" as if they are) are replacing "legal justice" in the UK and reducing the "rule of Law" to the "law according to public opinion.because they are allowed to talk crap under the "news" label, when it isn't news at all. Sure the punters should be apprised of what has happened.....but not until the legal system has decided something did happen
I am minded to cite, as an example of jumping on the Spanish Inquisition/Salem witch-hunt mindset, someone I heard on Radio 4 when the Jimmy Savile/BBC complicity thing entered the public arena and they did a programme on it......a female actually said that she had been verbally sexually abused by one of her superiors...and she quoted what he said.....which was that she was a "nippy sweetie"! Sheesh!
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.