View Full Version : Britain Betrays Palestine Yet Again.
The Foreign Minister, William Hague, who joined Conservative Friends of Israel aged 15, has stated in parliament today that Britain will abstain from a vote on Palestinian membership of the UN unless his conditions were met. One of these conditions was that Palestine would not be able to join the International Criminal Court.
Surely international law should be available to everyone, everyone should be able to go to court if they feel another country is breaking the law. Isn't he admitting that Israel is acting illegally? Another of his conditions is that Palestine wouldn't make any conditions regarding peace negotiations. What sort of arrogant bigoted imperialists must the world see us as? We can dictate conditions regarding them but they can't set any conditions regarding themselves.
Hopefully Palestine won't need Britain's vote, hopefully there are enough countries which believe in rule of law not oppression to bring Palestinians a step closer to getting their basic human rights, I feel it will be a vote as much against British imperialism and Israeli oppression as for Palestine.
The Foreign Minister, William Hague, who joined Conservative Friends of Israel aged 15, has stated in parliament today that Britain will abstain from a vote on Palestinian membership of the UN unless his conditions were met. One of these conditions was that Palestine would not be able to join the International Criminal Court.
Surely international law should be available to everyone, everyone should be able to go to court if they feel another country is breaking the law. Isn't he admitting that Israel is acting illegally? Another of his conditions is that Palestine wouldn't make any conditions regarding peace negotiations. What sort of arrogant bigoted imperialists must the world see us as? We can dictate conditions regarding them but they can't set any conditions regarding themselves.
Hopefully Palestine won't need Britain's vote, hopefully there are enough countries which believe in rule of law not oppression to bring Palestinians a step closer to getting their basic human rights, I feel it will be a vote as much against British imperialism and Israeli oppression as for Palestine.
At least he appears to be going to abstain rather than vote against....must be really sore on the bahookey to be permanently stuck on a pointy fence between the USA and Israel and the really civilised world (which does not include the USA and Israel..and not often the UK either)! What gets me is that I didn't hear him saying that ISRAEL should return to negotiations with Palestine without any conditions..given Israel is the the negotiating "partner" which produces more preconditions than points to be negotiated. Surprised, (or am I), that he didn't also say to Israel that they really don't do the peace process any favours by having their US poodle as their family lawyer.
Ach...why would we expect even-handedness from a UK Government which has spent the last 60 odd years licking the US piles while the US is up Israel's behind.
At least he appears to be going to abstain rather than vote against....
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor" - Desmond Tutu
Well if you vote in a terrorist organisation as a government, what do you expect?
Well if you vote in a terrorist organisation as a government, what do you expect?
I didn't vote Conservative.
From the Hamas Covenant from Wiki, just so there is no confusion.
The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the position of the Palestinian (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Palestine) Islamic (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Islamic) organization Hamas (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Hamas) on many key issues at the time. The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[1] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-charter1-1) and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[2] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-coh-2)[3] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-3) The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts.[4] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-4) The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[5] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-Yale-5)
From the Hamas Covenant from Wiki, just so there is no confusion.
The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the position of the Palestinian (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Palestine) Islamic (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Islamic) organization Hamas (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Hamas) on many key issues at the time. The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[1] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-charter1-1) and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[2] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-coh-2)[3] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-3) The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts.[4] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-4) The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[5] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-Yale-5)
It's their country.
It's good that Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander says: "Palestinian statehood is not a gift to be given, but a right to be acknowledged". At least some in parliament see the truth of the issue.
Here's some interesting reading:
"In my opinion, Israel is a rogue state which commits war crimes (http://[/FONT)" - Sir Gerald Kaufman, zionist and son of Holocaust victims.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sir-gerald-kaufman/gaza-israel-palestine_b_2164599.html?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics
(Sorry, I tried to do a tidy link but for some reason I have to post the link separately)
From the Hamas Covenant from Wiki, just so there is no confusion.
The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the position of the Palestinian (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Palestine) Islamic (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Islamic) organization Hamas (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Hamas) on many key issues at the time. The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[1] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-charter1-1) and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[2] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-coh-2)[3] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-3) The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts.[4] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-4) The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[5] (http://forum.caithness.org/#cite_note-Yale-5)
How's about the Likud charter, also from Wiki...written in 1999......just so there is no confusion....
It says.....
The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz.
And in the Peace and Security part, it says
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.
Don't see a lot of difference in rhetoric in either charter, imo.....but the Hamas one..according to quotes on Wiki does not direct Hamas political actions.
"British diplomat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomat) and former British ambassador (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador) to the UN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN) Sir Jeremy Greenstock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Greenstock) stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006 as part of their political program".
while the Likud one directs every political action undertaken by Israel under Netanyahu.
So which of them is worse......the Hamas one, which hasn't stopped Hamas saying "the question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people." a sentiment which would appear to be against their charter.....or the Likud one which has meant continual illegal occupation of Palestinian land, in order to accomplish their charter?
In my opinion. it is what it is, and there will be no going back. So, if you have a neighbour actively working on your destruction (or you believe to be), you would and should do all in your power to keep them from having the means. It is that simple to me.
.....So, if you have a neighbour actively working on your destruction (or you believe to be), you would and should do all in your power to keep them from having the means. It is that simple to me.....
So... If you have "paranoid delusions" that your neighbour is out to get you, then in your eyes it's OK to go on the offensive?
In my opinion. it is what it is, and there will be no going back. So, if you have a neighbour actively working on your destruction (or you believe to be), you would and should do all in your power to keep them from having the means. It is that simple to me.
So Palestinians should do everything in their power to prevent the ethnic cleansing of their land by Israel.
They will never be at peace,one side is as bad as the other
They will never be at peace,one side is as bad as the other
Of course there can be peace.
But first there has to be justice.
In 2009 Gerald Kaufman had this to say about the actions of Israel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
Of course there can be peace.
But first there has to be justice.yes i know,but why are they so determined to annihilate each other?why are they still enemies and still at war after thousands of years?
yes i know,but why are they so determined to annihilate each other?why are they still enemies and still at war after thousands of years?
Until 1947 they weren't enemies. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived peacefully in the same lands and cities. It was the world forcing the creation of Israel onto the existing Palestinian population, taking their farms, taking their homes, taking their towns. That started the conflict. (there were also a lot of Zionist terrorist atrocities leading up to 1947 that exacerbated anti-Israel feeling among the indigenous population - massacres, bombings, killings, kidnappings and executions of kidnapped victims).
For examples Google the King David Hotel bombing, or the Deir Yassin massacre. There are many more.
ok,why are NATO and the west not so keen to help the people of palestine,and why is America so hellbent in arming Israel with any weapon available?
Im just curious as i have no understanding in this hellish middle east conflict that spreads out to the rest of the world from time to time?
tonkatojo
29-Nov-12, 10:53
So... If you have "paranoid delusions" that your neighbour is out to get you, then in your eyes it's OK to go on the offensive?
Paranoid, what's paranoid about indiscriminate rockets landing and bombing of buses of a neighbour.
yes i know,but why are they so determined to annihilate each other?why are they still enemies and still at war after thousands of years?
They haven't been enemies or at war for thousands of years.
The problems didn't start until large numbers of refugees started moving to Palestine and even then the problem wasn't so much that they were Jewish, it was more because they were European.
Wherever you get oppression and injustice you will get people fighting against it. Give Palestine equal status in the world and Palestinians equal status in their country and we will have peace.
ok,why are NATO and the west not so keen to help the people of palestine,and why is America so hellbent in arming Israel with any weapon available?
Im just curious as i have no understanding in this hellish middle east conflict that spreads out to the rest of the world from time to time?
Because as Gerald Kaufman says in his speech, Israel plays on the West's guilt over the Holocaust. No-one denies the Holocaust was an abhorrence that should never happen again, but Israel has turned it into something different entirely. They use it as an excuse for, and defence of, their own atrocities against the Palestinians. Every foreign politician who visits Israel is taken straight from the airport to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial, there is no gap between stepping off the plane and being taken there. That is Israel saying "you cannot condemn us, because this is what happened to our ancestors, and if you criticise us then you deny the Holocaust".
That is what Gerald Kaufman found so repellent, that the millions of dead are being used - and their memory insulted - in such a way by modern Israel.
Ok,Will giving Palestine equal status really bring peace to the middle east? i really hope so but i have my doubts
They haven't been enemies or at war for thousands of years.
The problems didn't start until large numbers of refugees started moving to Palestine and even then the problem wasn't so much that they were Jewish, it was more because they were European.
Wherever you get oppression and injustice you will get people fighting against it. Give Palestine equal status in the world and Palestinians equal status in their country and we will have peace.
ok,why are NATO and the west not so keen to help the people of palestine,and why is America so hellbent in arming Israel with any weapon available?
Im just curious as i have no understanding in this hellish middle east conflict that spreads out to the rest of the world from time to time?
In a way the root cause lies way back in time. The leaders in the Middle East made usury a sin which is understandable when you see the misery it causes even today. Their law went on to be the Torah for the Jews and the Old Testament for Christians. Unfortunately the wise men of old didn't foresee a modern multicultural society and only made it a sin among themselves, they left a loophole, A Jew could lend money to a Christian and a Christian could lend money to a Jew. This lead to a great deal of animosity and distrust between the two religions and also to persecution when things weren't going too good. It also lead to a few individuals becoming extremely wealthy and powerful.
Towards the end of the !9th century some of these wealthy powerful people realised that there would always be prejudice against the Jews in Europe and decided they would create a country for European Jews to live in in Palestine. The fact that there were people already living there didn't worry them too much, the sun still didn't set on British oppression in those days, slavery had only just been abolished in America, oppression of people in developing countries was very much the norm. They started buying up land in Palestine, usually very cheaply because the land had been swindled off it's rightful owners by corrupt Turkish lawyers when Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire.
After WWI Palestine became a British protectorate and Jews continued to move there, there was some opposition just as we have opposition to immigration in Britain today but the trouble didn't really start until WWII when there were huge numbers of Jewish refugees fleeing persecution in Europe landing in Palestine. To try and stop the trouble The UN decided to partition Palestine into an Arab section and a Jewish section, which they did, in a manner unfair to and against the wishes of the Palestinian people. Then the Jewish population declared they were a state, the genocide and ethnic cleansing began in earnest, they started grabbing as much Palestinian land as they could by force and they are still grabbing it illegally today.
So if anyone tries to tell you the cause of the troubles is Palestinians firing rockets you will know they haven't a clue. The real reason is plain to see, right here, in one picture.
http://www.graven-images.org.uk/temp/israel-palestine-map.jpg
Ok,Will giving Palestine equal status really bring peace to the middle east? i really hope so but i have my doubts
What is the matter with you? Justice is a cause in it's own right. Palestinians are equal human beings and they are entitled to equal human rights whether it brings peace or not.
I'll tell you one thing for certain, till Palestine gets justice there will be no peace.
Paranoid, what's paranoid about indiscriminate rockets landing and bombing of buses of a neighbour.
That would depend if those actions were retaliations, however ill-advised, by a neighbour at the end of their tether at ongoing actions which were being taken against them, wouldn't it?
Paranoia means unfounded and/or excessive fears.....the last 60 odd years have amply shown the Palestinian fears are neither unfounded nor excessive.
The paranoia does not rest with the Palestinians, because the Zionists ARE out to get 'em, and have been since the influx of Zionists into Palestine, aided and abetted by our government at the time.
Nothing the matter with me sir,just asked a question,im sorry if i offended you
What is the matter with you? Justice is a cause in it's own right. Palestinians are equal human beings and they are entitled to equal human rights whether it brings peace or not.
I'll tell you one thing for certain, till Palestine gets justice there will be no peace.
So... If you have "paranoid delusions" that your neighbour is out to get you, then in your eyes it's OK to go on the offensive?
Well I assume they are not imagining the school bus bombings and rocket attacks
As an example of western double standards:
“There’s no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders,” President Barack Obama - justifying Israel's reprisal attacks for Palestinian rocket attacks - neatly ignoring his own country's drone attacks on Pakistan.
tonkatojo
29-Nov-12, 19:42
That would depend if those actions were retaliations, however ill-advised, by a neighbour at the end of their tether at ongoing actions which were being taken against them, wouldn't it?
Paranoia means unfounded and/or excessive fears.....the last 60 odd years have amply shown the Palestinian fears are neither unfounded nor excessive.
The paranoia does not rest with the Palestinians, because the Zionists ARE out to get 'em, and have been since the influx of Zionists into Palestine, aided and abetted by our government at the time.
I am not a historian, but I think it currently is judged on the end of the 2nd WORLD war and the justice meted out for choosing the wrong side. But I am probably wrong, as usual.
I am not a historian, but I think it currently is judged on the end of the 2nd WORLD war and the justice meted out for choosing the wrong side. But I am probably wrong, as usual.
Just take a look at the facts then decide who it was chose which side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29#Contact_with_Nazi_Germany
Well I assume they are not imagining the school bus bombings and rocket attacks
You said... ".....So, if you have a neighbour actively working on your destruction (or you believe to be), you would and should do all in your power to keep them from having the means. It is that simple to me....."....
My reply of... "So... If you have "paranoid delusions" that your neighbour is out to get you, then in your eyes it's OK to go on the offensive?" was a direct response to your statement, not the issue in hand, to demonstrate what a ridiculous statement it was.
ok,why are NATO and the west not so keen to help the people of palestine,and why is America so hellbent in arming Israel with any weapon available?
Im just curious as i have no understanding in this hellish middle east conflict that spreads out to the rest of the world from time to time?
My understanding of it is that there is a large & influential part of the American population who believe in the literal translation of the Bible & that the "Rapture" is coming soon & that the timing of the "Rapture" is somehow connected to Israel & Jerusalem, so for their prophecies to come true the Palestinians must be defeated & Israel must have complete control.
You said... ".....So, if you have a neighbour actively working on your destruction (or you believe to be), you would and should do all in your power to keep them from having the means. It is that simple to me....."....
My reply of... "So... If you have "paranoid delusions" that your neighbour is out to get you, then in your eyes it's OK to go on the offensive?" was a direct response to your statement, not the issue in hand, to demonstrate what a ridiculous statement it was.
I know this is a strange place but it is perfectly possible to believe something that is true, or even act on a belief without being paranoid. Or I am I wrong? Or are you being obtuse for the sake of it?
The world has voted overwhelmingly for Palestine to be recognised by the UN as a non member state.
For 138, against 9, abstained 41.
They now have some of what they should have had 65 years ago. Let's hope it isn't long before they receive full membership.
I know this is a strange place but it is perfectly possible to believe something that is true, or even act on a belief without being paranoid. Or I am I wrong? Or are you being obtuse for the sake of it?
What he says makes perfect sense.
What you say doesn't.
The world has voted overwhelmingly for Palestine to be recognised by the UN as a non member state.
For 138, against 9, abstained 41.
They now have some of what they should have had 65 years ago. Let's hope it isn't long before they receive full membership.
I would have voted against recognition !!!
I would have voted against recognition !!!
Which would have given you one more thing in common with Micronesia.
The world has voted overwhelmingly for Palestine to be recognised by the UN as a non member state.
For 138, against 9, abstained 41.
They now have some of what they should have had 65 years ago. Let's hope it isn't long before they receive full membership.
A good day. The British government though should be shamed for their abstention. In the original Palestinian Mandate the British government wrote:
"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
They have clearly forgotten the highlighted section.
It is doubly shameful when taking into account 72% of Britons favour the creation of a recognised Palestinian state. Source:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/19/palestinian-statehood-wins-european-backing?INTCMP=SRCH
Here is a map showing who supports this important step on the road to Middle eastern peace: http://en.avaaz.org/1170/see-who-voted-for-palestine
Does this mean that the people of Palestine will now have a state of their own?
A good day. The British government though should be shamed for their abstention. In the original Palestinian Mandate the British government wrote:
"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, t being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
They have clearly forgotten the highlighted section.
Hopefully the Israeli ruling Government will now think twice about using Palestine as a punchbag whenever it feels a need for a boost in the polls.
Does this mean that the people of Palestine will now have a state of their own?
It means they are recognised as a state by the UN so they can apply to join the International Criminal Court and get legal protection when Israel commits crimes against humanity.
They are still under Israeli military occupation so there will be little difference in the day to day life of the Palestinians. This isn't the end this is just the beginning of the end, a small step in the right direction.
tonkatojo
30-Nov-12, 11:10
It means they are recognised as a state by the UN so they can apply to join the International Criminal Court and get legal protection when Israel commits crimes against humanity.
They are still under Israeli military occupation so there will be little difference in the day to day life of the Palestinians. This isn't the end this is just the beginning of the end, a small step in the right direction.
Just what are your thoughts on the final destination of Palestine ?.
tonkatojo
30-Nov-12, 11:29
Just take a look at the facts then decide who it was chose which side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_Germany
This article in its entirety is also worth considering.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
Just what are your thoughts on the final destination of Palestine ?.
I just hope for the best and expect the worst.
Israel annouces they are to build 3000 homes on Palestine land,why are they being so provocative?
Because they want to spark more conflict to discredit the Palestinians.
Israel annouces they are to build 3000 homes on Palestine land,why are they being so provocative?
They're thugs, gangsters, bullies, intimidation is what they do.
You have to admire the Palestinians for standing up to them, I wish our politicians had the guts, they just squirm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NhUnsG4zpMI
well i cant understand why the israel gets away with it,its beyond my understanding
They're thugs, gangsters, bullies, intimidation is what they do.
You have to admire the Palestinians for standing up to them, I wish our politicians had the guts, they just squirm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NhUnsG4zpMI
well i cant understand why the israel gets away with it,its beyond my understanding
Because they have the backing of the USA (& their lapdogs) who just veto any anti-Israel resolutions at the UN. The sooner the whole idea of any one country being able to veto something everybody else is in favour of is removed the better, just makes a mockery of any notion of democracy at the UN, maybe the name should be changed to The UN of A.
Because they have the backing of the USA (& their lapdogs) who just veto any anti-Israel resolutions at the UN. The sooner the whole idea of any one country being able to veto something everybody else is in favour of is removed the better, just makes a mockery of any notion of democracy at the UN, maybe the name should be changed to The UN of A.
America did have a president prepared to stand up to Israel, John F Kennedy, he sent a letter to the Israeli Prime Minister Eshkol on the 5th of July 1963 insisting that American inspectors be allowed to inspect the Dimona nuclear facility to ensure Israel wasn't making a bomb. Lyndon Johnson reversed the decision when he got to power.
America did have a president prepared to stand up to Israel, John F Kennedy, he sent a letter to the Israeli Prime Minister Eshkol on the 5th of July 1963 insisting that American inspectors be allowed to inspect the Dimona nuclear facility to ensure Israel wasn't making a bomb. Lyndon Johnson reversed the decision when he got to power.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means.....but given he was assassinated on 22nd November the same year, it would make even the least gullible wonder as to who did it. Given that, even now, in 2012, Israel will neither confirm or deny that they have nuclear capabilities, though Olmert (perhaps inadvertently, admitted it in 2006.) It has always struck me as "funny/peculiar" that the whole thing was fixed on Lee Harvey Oswald, under a communist banner, when the Cuban crisis was past, there were no immediate worrying issues in the Cold War and no real reason at that time to get rid of Kennedy, because he was not threatening them. The very fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was killed by Jacob Leon Rubenstein (Jack Ruby) before he could open his mouth, name names and sign statements, seems a shade, shall we say, convenient? What seems even more convenient was that a person whose real name was Jacob Leon Rubenstein was not ever considered under an Israeli banner, but only under an organised crime one.
I'm not inclined to think the extremely convoluted "investigation" undertaken produced an accurate result...and I am inclined to think that he was assassinated by an agent of Israel who didn't want (and still do not want) the world to know(for absolutely sure) that they were in the process of producing/had already produced nuclear weapons in defiance of the UN, to which they had signed up (with their fingers crossed behind their backs as they lied through their teeth).
Israel's nuclear arsenal is one of the biggest hypocrisies in the middle east. The US and UK are up in arms and sabre rattling at Iran for pursuing nuclear energy. Even though Iran has submitted to IAEA inspections, says it is not building weapons, and is signed up to the NNPT. Meanwhile Israel has illegal nukes, has consistently refused IAEA inspections and has not signed up to the NNPT. It is a monstrous double-standard on the part of the US and UK, and could lead to a middle-eastern conflagration that dwarfs both gulf wars, and could even lead to WW3 as Iran has the backing of both Russia and China.
Israel's nuclear arsenal is one of the biggest hypocrisies in the middle east. The US and UK are up in arms and sabre rattling at Iran for pursuing nuclear energy. Even though Iran has submitted to IAEA inspections, says it is not building weapons, and is signed up to the NNPT. Meanwhile Israel has illegal nukes, has consistently refused IAEA inspections and has not signed up to the NNPT. It is a monstrous double-standard on the part of the US and UK, and could lead to a middle-eastern conflagration that dwarfs both gulf wars, and could even lead to WW3 as Iran has the backing of both Russia and China.
Personaly, I feel a lot safer knowing that Isreal has nukes than I would wondering if Iran had them.
Personaly, I feel a lot safer knowing that Isreal has nukes than I would wondering if Iran had them.
I don't.
Iran has shown themselves to be a peace loving country who does not attack their neighbours, Israel has an appalling record for warmongering. The Iranian government is opposed to the possession and use of nuclear weapons, Israel has made it quite clear they would not hesitate to use them, that is why America supplies them with so many conventional weapons.
If Israel uses nukes and sets off a nuclear war then we are all toast. If Israel uses nuclear weapons on Iran then chances are Russia and China will use them on Israel, then America will start firing back.
There is no doubt in my mind that even if Iran had nuclear weapons they would never use them first, there is no doubt in my mind that Israel would.
Iran has shown themselves to be a peace loving country who does not attack their neighbours, .
Not what this Iranian thinks
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/24/us-un-assembly-ahmadinejad-idUSBRE88N0HF20120924
tonkatojo
01-Dec-12, 13:59
Not what this Iranian thinks
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/24/us-un-assembly-ahmadinejad-idUSBRE88N0HF20120924
There are a few on here that turn a blind eye to this bloke and what he says (Iranian) as it jiggers their thinking on the subject.
How can it be that a recognised state can be threatened with inhalation by an unrecognised group of people also an UN recognised state and folk on here think it is hunky dory, beats my logic.
I don't.
Iran has shown themselves to be a peace loving country who does not attack their neighbours, Israel has an appalling record for warmongering. The Iranian government is opposed to the possession and use of nuclear weapons, Israel has made it quite clear they would not hesitate to use them, that is why America supplies them with so many conventional weapons.
If Israel uses nukes and sets off a nuclear war then we are all toast. If Israel uses nuclear weapons on Iran then chances are Russia and China will use them on Israel, then America will start firing back.
There is no doubt in my mind that even if Iran had nuclear weapons they would never use them first, there is no doubt in my mind that Israel would.
Blimey! I don't know which planet you inhabit but it ain't this one.
Blimey! I don't know which planet you inhabit but it ain't this one.
Iran, in its entire history, has never been the aggressor in any war.
Iran, in its entire history, has never been the aggressor in any war.
Good for them! I doesn't change my view.
Good for them! I doesn't change my view.
Then your view is based on prejudice not facts.
Not what this Iranian thinks
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/24/us-un-assembly-ahmadinejad-idUSBRE88N0HF20120924
It's what is happening that counts not what someone says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHYOkCmEjFA&feature=player_embedded#!
Then your view is based on prejudice not facts.
Ducati's view is based on whatever is going to get peoples backs up the most. I don't think he has any real opinions of his own, he just makes them up as he goes along to try & elicit a response.
It's what is happening that counts not what someone says.
Israel is just defending its self from Hamas, and why not?
It's what is happening that counts not what someone says.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not just someone, he is a major threat to the world
Israel is just defending its self from Hamas, and why not?
Rubbish, Israel are the attackers, always have been, didn't you see the maps I posted earlier?
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not just someone, he is a major threat to the world
Rubbish, I have actually read the full transcripts of both speeches he made to the UN, have you? Or do you just rely on the propaganda press?
Read them then tell me which part is a threat to the world.
Rubbish, Israel are the attackers, always have been, didn't you see the maps I posted earlier?
Your anti American / Israeli bias is well know on here fred, just go back to your conspiracy rants from a few years ago
Rubbish, Israel are the attackers, always have been, didn't you see the maps I posted earlier?
Who attacked who in
1948 Palestine War
1967 Six day War
1973 Yom Kippur War
!982 Lenanon War
2006 Lebanon War
All I know is Israel won all of them
Who attacked who in
1948 Palestine War
1967 Six day War
1973 Yom Kippur War
!982 Lenanon War
2006 Lebanon War
All I know is Israel won all of them
It was the Europeans who moved into an Arab country and decided to steal it from it's rightful owners of course.
It was the Europeans who moved into an Arab country and decided to steal it from it's rightful owners of course.
it was on 29 November 1947, the United nations General Assembly recommended the adoption and implementation of the United Nations Partition plan of Mandatory Palestine, the UN are not just Europeans
I was taken to George Galloway when I first heard him talk about the Palestinians many years ago. It was the first time I started to think about the conflict in the Middle east. I knew a bit about the Jews but I never realised the plight of the Palestinian people and how they were displaced to make way for a Jewish state.
That's history and nothing will change it. Either the Palestinians accept that and get on with their lives or theres always going to be conflict. Its nonsense to take sides if your not one of the 2 tribes in conflict. Britains looking and hoping for a political solution between the 2 couintries. Its up to them. Britain always tries to be diplomatic when dealing internationally but dont let anyone think shes a mug.
Britain has a close bond with Israel. Its not betrayal to stand by a friend.
Your anti American / Israeli bias is well know on here fred, just go back to your conspiracy rants from a few years ago
Well this forum doesn't change any does it? How come the moderators allow personal attacks and insults from the anti Muslim clique then?
The vast majority of the world voted for Palestine.The people of the world are overwhelmingly behind Palestine. Even the Friend of Israel William Hague is now quickly back tracking in the face of popular opinion.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241186/Israel-plans-build-3-000-settlement-homes-UN-votes-recognise-Palestine.html
So I don't know what you base your opinions on but it certainly has nothing to do with reality.
I was taken to George Galloway when I first heard him talk about the Palestinians many years ago. It was the first time I started to think about the conflict in the Middle east. I knew a bit about the Jews but I never realised the plight of the Palestinian people and how they were displaced to make way for a Jewish state.
That's history and nothing will change it. Either the Palestinians accept that and get on with their lives or theres always going to be conflict. Its nonsense to take sides if your not one of the 2 tribes in conflict. Britains looking and hoping for a political solution between the 2 couintries. Its up to them. Britain always tries to be diplomatic when dealing internationally but dont let anyone think shes a mug.
Britain has a close bond with Israel. Its not betrayal to stand by a friend.
Well I am going to take sides, I take the side of justice and humanity, what is pointless about that?
it was on 29 November 1947, the United nations General Assembly recommended the adoption and implementation of the United Nations Partition plan of Mandatory Palestine, the UN are not just Europeans
They didn't say anything about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Look at the maps.
Well I am going to take sides, I take the side of justice and humanity, what is pointless about that?
I didnt say it was pointless, I said it was nonsense. :lol:
By taking sides your keeping it going. its non of your business. You can be interested without condemnation. At least I can.
I didnt say it was pointless, I said it was nonsense. :lol:
By taking sides your keeping it going. its non of your business. You can be interested without condemnation. At least I can.
Well I'm going to continue telling it how it is and I'm making progress.
It's not that long ago I was getting banned from this forum and called anti Semitic for saying exactly the same things I am saying now. After 65 years Palestine has finally been recognised as a state by the UN, they finally got what Britain promised them in 1939. I will keep on telling it how it is till Palestine gets full membership of the UN and Palestinians are seen as equals with equal rights.
Well I'm going to continue telling it how it is and I'm making progress.
It's not that long ago I was getting banned from this forum and called anti Semitic for saying exactly the same things I am saying now. After 65 years Palestine has finally been recognised as a state by the UN, they finally got what Britain promised them in 1939. I will keep on telling it how it is till Palestine gets full membership of the UN and Palestinians are seen as equals with equal rights.
That may be an honourable position but I dont accept any less notion that I may be on the wrong side. The Palestinians are out of order too. I would hope eventually that some of the things you want would happen and I dont doubt they will but someone said on the first page of this thread it takes 2 to tango. Theres faults on both sides and the main issue of whether Israel should exist or not is not up for discussion. Thats the problem at the moment and no amount of historical fact will change that unless there is a willingness to live together in peace. The Palestians have an extremist wing and they have been elected by the Palestinian people.I tll take years to untangle. Taking sides is unhelpful and expressing them on the www is comparitively new but It opens debate to ordinary people.
Your going to take stick if you defy convention but your giving a good bit too. Doesnt give you the right to claim the side of justice and humanity though.
Fred?! please do not turn this into an anti islam/muslim debate just because some people do not agree with your views
Well this forum doesn't change any does it? How come the moderators allow personal attacks and insults from the anti Muslim clique then?
The vast majority of the world voted for Palestine.The people of the world are overwhelmingly behind Palestine. Even the Friend of Israel William Hague is now quickly back tracking in the face of popular opinion.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241186/Israel-plans-build-3-000-settlement-homes-UN-votes-recognise-Palestine.html
So I don't know what you base your opinions on but it certainly has nothing to do with reality.
Fred?! please do not turn this into an anti islam/muslim debate just because some people do not agree with your views
Golach threw accusations of racism at me, well if it's racist to speak against oppression then it's damned sure racist to defend the oppressors.
OK,thats your view and opinion but why try to turn this into an anti islam/muslim debate? when its clearly not!
Golach threw accusations of racism at me, well if it's racist to speak against oppression then it's damned sure racist to defend the oppressors.
Golach threw accusations of racism at me, well if it's racist to speak against oppression then it's damned sure racist to defend the oppressors.
The word racist was never mentioned by me fred, you brought that into the thread yourself.
Ducati's view is based on whatever is going to get peoples backs up the most. I don't think he has any real opinions of his own, he just makes them up as he goes along to try & elicit a response.
Eh hem! I have a view on this always have thanks. (Look back over the past couple of years at some of Fred's an my exchanges). I always post on these threads as they are very one sided otherwise. I don't appreciate people judging me a troll, particularly someone who very often is.
That may be an honourable position but I dont accept any less notion that I may be on the wrong side. The Palestinians are out of order too. I would hope eventually that some of the things you want would happen and I dont doubt they will but someone said on the first page of this thread it takes 2 to tango. Theres faults on both sides and the main issue of whether Israel should exist or not is not up for discussion. Thats the problem at the moment and no amount of historical fact will change that unless there is a willingness to live together in peace. The Palestians have an extremist wing and they have been elected by the Palestinian people.I tll take years to untangle. Taking sides is unhelpful and expressing them on the www is comparitively new but It opens debate to ordinary people.
Your going to take stick if you defy convention but your giving a good bit too. Doesnt give you the right to claim the side of justice and humanity though.
Look at the maps, look at the casualty figures, look at Israel building 3000 more illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.
Israel is not interested in peace, never were, all they want is the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
And I doubt they are going to stop there.
http://www.graven-images.org.uk/temp/jidf.png
Look at the maps, look at the casualty figures, look at Israel building 3000 more illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.
Israel is not interested in peace, never were, all they want is the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
And I doubt they are going to stop there.
http://www.graven-images.org.uk/temp/jidf.png
we could link to 100 jihadist sites, there are always extremists if you look
That may be an honourable position but I dont accept any less notion that I may be on the wrong side. The Palestinians are out of order too.
What is out of order about wanting your land back? The Palestinian situation is almost the same as Scotland's was 650 years ago. Perhaps it is also out of order to expect Scotland to be recognised as a separate entity within the United Kingdom?
Fred Fred,you are sinkink lower and lower in my estimations now,so one sided and looking to start an anti islam/muslim arguement,shame on you
Look at the maps, look at the casualty figures, look at Israel building 3000 more illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.
Israel is not interested in peace, never were, all they want is the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
And I doubt they are going to stop there.
http://www.graven-images.org.uk/temp/jidf.png
You cant look at maps in isolation and if you do how far back do you want to go? The jewish race has been persecuted since biblical times and no member of this forum who has been sheltered from their plight has any right to denounce them even if at times they may behave like their persecutors. Most thinking people will make a judgement about where to hang their hats in the Middle East conflict. Mine is hanging in the Jewish lobby although I have a more balanced opinion than some on here and like Ducati says unless some of the comments on this forums gets challenged history can be changed by the prejudices, and in some cases the antisemitism of its contributors.
What is out of order about wanting your land back? The Palestinian situation is almost the same as Scotland's was 650 years ago. Perhaps it is also out of order to expect Scotland to be recognised as a separate entity within the United Kingdom?
So the Palestinians are never out of order in the methods the use to win back their land?
You cant look at maps in isolation and if you do how far back do you want to go? The jewish race has been persecuted since biblical times and no member of this forum who has been sheltered from their plight has any right to denounce them even if at times they may behave like their persecutors. Most thinking people will make a judgement about where to hang their hats in the Middle East conflict. Mine is hanging in the Jewish lobby although I have a more balanced opinion than some on here and like Ducati says unless some of the comments on this forums gets challenged history can be changed by the prejudices, and in some cases the antisemitism of its contributors.
The Jews were persecuted by Europeans.
What makes you think the Palestinians should pay for it?
So the Palestinians are never out of order in the methods the use to win back their land?
What would you do in their situation? They have been ghettoed, they are under siege, their land is still being stolen, their homes bulldozed, their children killed. What would you do? I know if my children were slaughtered in missile attacks I wouldn't be waiting for the UN to do anything. What would you do if England sent an army to Caithness, bulldozed your home, evicted all the residents of Thurso at gunpoint, gave the lands and buildings to English settlers? What would you do? Talk?
Fred Fred,you are sinkink lower and lower in my estimations now,so one sided and looking to start an anti islam/muslim arguement,shame on you
Once again as it didn't seem to sink in first time, Golach started it, if he's going to bring racial prejudice into the discussion then so am I.
Once again as it didn't seem to sink in first time, Golach started it, if he's going to bring racial prejudice into the discussion then so am I.
Oh deary me, It was not me, it was a big laddie and he ran away [lol]
What would you do in their situation? They have been ghettoed, they are under siege, their land is still being stolen, their homes bulldozed, their children killed. What would you do? I know if my children were slaughtered in missile attacks I wouldn't be waiting for the UN to do anything. What would you do if England sent an army to Caithness, bulldozed your home, evicted all the residents of Thurso at gunpoint, gave the lands and buildings to English settlers? What would you do? Talk?
Its doing your case no good to use Scotland/England as an analogy of the Middle East conflict. Britain sorted out its problems over the centuries and its extremists ie, those who were so one sided they walked with a limp, eventually died out and reasonable human debate then took place. If your looking for a modern analogy check out Northern Ireland or South Africa or Serbia even. The list goes on and on so why should the Middle east conflict be different? A few militant Palestinian supporting orgers come onto the forums and denounce Israel as if the problem lies only there. Thats short sighted and dangerous.
Like all militants all they do is stoke the fires of hatred.
Fred!,im not going to waste my time arguing with you,i cant stop your childish comments but when you stop,its all over
Once again as it didn't seem to sink in first time, Golach started it, if he's going to bring racial prejudice into the discussion then so am I.
Its doing your case no good to use Scotland/England as an analogy of the Middle East conflict. Britain sorted out its problems over the centuries and its extremists ie, those who were so one sided they walked with a limp, eventually died out and reasonable human debate then took place. If your looking for a modern analogy check out Northern Ireland or South Africa or Serbia even. The list goes on and on so why should the Middle east conflict be different? A few militant Palestinian supporting orgers come onto the forums and denounce Israel as if the problem lies only there. Thats short sighted and dangerous.
Like all militants all they do is stoke the fires of hatred.
How much 'reasonable debate' would there have been if Scotland as an entity had been eradicated from the map and England gradually extended to Dunnet Head by forced eviction and settlement, as Israel is doing to Palestine?
Is it militant to support the Palestinian cause? If so then the majority are 'militant'. In the UK 53% support and 26% oppose. Even in the USA the majority support the Palestinian cause.
Source: http://www.globescan.com/commentary-and-analysis/press-releases/press-releases-2011/94-press-releases-2011/129-public-narrowly-backs-un-recognition-of-palestine-global-poll.html
Its doing your case no good to use Scotland/England as an analogy of the Middle East conflict. Britain sorted out its problems over the centuries and its extremists ie, those who were so one sided they walked with a limp, eventually died out and reasonable human debate then took place. If your looking for a modern analogy check out Northern Ireland or South Africa or Serbia even. The list goes on and on so why should the Middle east conflict be different? A few militant Palestinian supporting orgers come onto the forums and denounce Israel as if the problem lies only there. Thats short sighted and dangerous.
Like all militants all they do is stoke the fires of hatred.
Yes let's take a look at Ireland, once it was ruled over and oppressed by the rest of Britain, then they tried partitioning it but the troubles didn't end until the British troops were withdrawn and Catholics in Northern Ireland were given equal rights and an equal say in the running of their country.
Then there was South Africa, it wasn't the governments that sorted that one out, America supported the apartheid regime, it was the people who made the facts known, it was the people who spoke out against the injustice. it was the people who spoke out for Nelson Mandela while the governments branded him a terrorist.
The only way to peace is to end the injustice.
More Israeli bullying.
http://rt.com/news/israel-withholds-tax-funds-084/
Your reading is very selective when it comes to the Middle east conflict
Which parts of the jewish statements taken from your linked article, dont you understand?
"Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced during a weekly government cabinet meeting in Jerusalem.
"This is a Palestinian provocation and an attempt to advance their state without recognizing Israel," Steinitz stated
Israel has halted tax revenue money in the past during times of diplomatic tensions."
or this one
For instance, in 2008 Israel delayed transferring tax funds to the Palestinian government after Prime Minister Salam Fayyad angered Israeli leaders by urging the European Union not to renew its ties with Israel.
Your reading is very selective when it comes to the Middle east conflict
Which parts of the jewish statements taken from your linked article, dont you understand?
"Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced during a weekly government cabinet meeting in Jerusalem.
"This is a Palestinian provocation and an attempt to advance their state without recognizing Israel," Steinitz stated
Israel has halted tax revenue money in the past during times of diplomatic tensions."
or this one
For instance, in 2008 Israel delayed transferring tax funds to the Palestinian government after Prime Minister Salam Fayyad angered Israeli leaders by urging the European Union not to renew its ties with Israel.
Now you have completely lost me.
Are you saying that Palestinians deserve to have their own tax money taken from them because they dared to ask the UN to grant them their human rights?
The world spoke overwhelmingly, Palestine has the right to be a state. What right has Israel got to punish them?
What is the difference between the Israeli threats and the threats of the mobster, "don't go to the police or else"?
Why should Palestinians be punished for asking for justice?
Why should Israel be punished for existing?
Maybe its good that your lost. Having to consider the Jewish side of the conflict seems lost to you. Either that or you dont accept the Jews have a case?
Why should Israel be punished for existing?
Maybe its good that your lost. Having to consider the Jewish side of the conflict seems lost to you. Either that or you dont accept the Jews have a case?
Israel doesn't have a case. They are the ones stealing land. They are the ones illegally occupying Palestinian land. They are the ones illegally building settlements. They are the ones who have violated more UN Resolutions than any other country in history.
Why should Israel be punished for existing?
Maybe its good that your lost. Having to consider the Jewish side of the conflict seems lost to you. Either that or you dont accept the Jews have a case?
You don't seem to accept that Palestinians are entitled to their basic human rights.
This is going round and round and leading nowhere....boring,if you feel the need,go and do something positive for the plight of the palestine people instead of looking for childish,petty fights and name calling.
This is going round and round and leading nowhere....boring,if you feel the need,go and do something positive for the plight of the palestine people instead of looking for childish,petty fights and name calling.
There are plenty of other threads if you find this one boring, there is one about dog poo just down the page may be more to your tastes, nobody is forcing you to read this one.
Typical childish response from you Fred,go and book a one way ticket to palestine if you are so concerned
There are plenty of other threads if you find this one boring, there is one about dog poo just down the page may be more to your tastes, nobody is forcing you to read this one.
Typical childish response from you Fred,go and book a one way ticket to palestine if you are so concerned
Bit difficult, they don't have an airport.
They did have an airport but the Israelis bombed it and they won't let the building materials through to mend it.
Is'nt that lucky for you,now you can stay in the comfort of your home and fight for the cause of the palestines from the comfort of your armchair and call everyone else a racist anti islam/muslim who doesnt agree with your biased views
Bit difficult, they don't have an airport.
They did have an airport but the Israelis bombed it and they won't let the building materials through to mend it.
Is'nt that lucky for you,now you can stay in the comfort of your home and fight for the cause of the palestines from the comfort of your armchair and call everyone else a racist anti islam/muslim who doesnt agree with your biased views
And isn't it lucky for you that you have an airport in Wick, you can get on a plane any time you want to and go anywhere you like.
If only the people of Palestine had the same basic rights.
You don't seem to accept that Palestinians are entitled to their basic human rights.
You see it wrong then. I could make the same accusation against your opinion of the Jews but theres no point going round in circles. I think your part of the problem although with a little more thought about the Jewish situation you could become a part of the solution.
You see it wrong then. I could make the same accusation against your opinion of the Jews but theres no point going round in circles. I think your part of the problem although with a little more thought about the Jewish situation you could become a part of the solution.
What opinion of Jews? I don't think I ever expressed an opinion of Jews.
If you mean Israelis then you couldn't because it wouldn't be true.
After 65 years of Palestine getting smaller and smaller and Israel getting bigger and bigger I can see the only solution that will make you happy is the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Europeans.
Sixty five years is long enough, time to put a stop to the imperialist persecution of Palestinians, time to give them their basic human rights. The rights they are entitled to under international law.
Ok Fred!,instead of coming here and moaning about it and having a go at everyone who doesnt agree with you,would you not be better doing something positive like raising money through some charity for the palestine people?,doing a sponsered run perhaps?,have a car boot sale maybe?im sure there are many things you can do that would/could ease the suffering of these poor people.What you are doing now is not helping them,is it Fred?
So go and help them Fred,do yourself a favour and go and help the people you are so concerned about and you will gain some self respect and the respect of others.
What opinion of Jews? I don't think I ever expressed an opinion of Jews.
If you mean Israelis then you couldn't because it wouldn't be true.
After 65 years of Palestine getting smaller and smaller and Israel getting bigger and bigger I can see the only solution that will make you happy is the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Europeans.
Sixty five years is long enough, time to put a stop to the imperialist persecution of Palestinians, time to give them their basic human rights. The rights they are entitled to under international law.
Ok Fred!,instead of coming here and moaning about it and having a go at everyone who doesnt agree with you,would you not be better doing something positive like raising money through some charity for the palestine people?,doing a sponsered run perhaps?,have a car boot sale maybe?im sure there are many things you can do that would/could ease the suffering of these poor people.What you are doing now is not helping them,is it Fred?
So go and help them Fred,do yourself a favour and go and help the people you are so concerned about and you will gain some self respect and the respect of others.
bcsman.
What I do is none of your Goddamned business.
I am sick to death of people on this forum who when they can not find fault with what i say try turning the discussion round to try and criticise me.
I do not tell other members of this forum what to do with their lives and I would appreciate it if they didn't tell me.
I am disappointed with the way this discussion has gone. Is there really any need for personal attacks - by people on both sides of the discussion - just because people have differing opinions? I am new here, so I'm not used to it, perhaps this is the way things are here on Caithness.org? I did read the terms when I joined, and the extensive list of actions that could incur forum penalties, so I have been very careful in the manner of my posting. Perhaps those rules are relaxed for older members? If someone could explain I would be grateful, as I am at a loss now as to whether I wish to continue visiting. :(
Im sorry you feel so much anger Fred,im not having a go at you,i know you feel very strongly about the plight of the palestine people but it seems to me that your way of helping them is to come here and moan about it rather than actually doing anything positive about it.You are not doing the cause any favours with your throwing your toys out of the pram attitude when nothing goes your way or if anyone dares to have a different view from you,now why dont you turn that anger into something positive and go and actually help the people you feel so strongly about.
bcsman.
What I do is none of your Goddamned business.
I am sick to death of people on this forum who when they can not find fault with what i say try turning the discussion round to try and criticise me.
I do not tell other members of this forum what to do with their lives and I would appreciate it if they didn't tell me.
Im sorry you feel so much anger Fred,im not having a go at you,i know you feel very strongly about the plight of the palestine people but it seems to me that your way of helping them is to come here and moan about it rather than actually doing anything positive about it.You are not doing the cause any favours with your throwing your toys out of the pram attitude when nothing goes your way or if anyone dares to have a different view from you,now why dont you turn that anger into something positive and go and actually help the people you feel so strongly about.
I try to bring the facts of the issues to light, educate, change people's awareness, change public opinion, that is how they put an end to apartheid in South Africa and that is how we will put an end to apartheid in Palestine.
Any more than that you don't know about me, I don't criticise what you do or don't do in your life so leave me out of it.
Unless, of course the moderators would like me to start telling people what I think of them and we can have a right old slanging match.
M Swanson
03-Dec-12, 11:01
I've never taken too much interest in this problem Fred, because I didn't fully understand the politics of the situation. But, for what it's worth, thanks largely to this thread and your post showing the Palestinian Loss of Land map, I think the main cause for the conflict is glaring. The Palestinians are being driven from their homeland and that cannot be right. It's inhumane, imo!
oldmarine
03-Dec-12, 17:59
Israel and Christians are following the same path to destruction. The Muslims don't want either one to both exist. Eventually, it's goodbye to both Israel and Christians. The Muslims will make certain of that in the long run.
I've never taken too much interest in this problem Fred, because I didn't fully understand the politics of the situation. But, for what it's worth, thanks largely to this thread and your post showing the Palestinian Loss of Land map, I think the main cause for the conflict is glaring. The Palestinians are being driven from their homeland and that cannot be right. It's inhumane, imo!
You could say it is ethnic cleansing.
The UK has warned Israel that its plan to expand settlement building in the occupied Palestinian territories "threatens the viability" of peace.
Good to see the UK taking a hard stance against this.
Israel and Christians are following the same path to destruction. The Muslims don't want either one to both exist. Eventually, it's goodbye to both Israel and Christians. The Muslims will make certain of that in the long run.
Oh so true,
Israel and Christians are following the same path to destruction. The Muslims don't want either one to both exist. Eventually, it's goodbye to both Israel and Christians. The Muslims will make certain of that in the long run.
All the more reason to completely separate state and church and become a truly secular nation.
Im sorry you feel so much anger Fred,im not having a go at you,i know you feel very strongly about the plight of the palestine people but it seems to me that your way of helping them is to come here and moan about it rather than actually doing anything positive about it.You are not doing the cause any favours with your throwing your toys out of the pram attitude when nothing goes your way or if anyone dares to have a different view from you,now why dont you turn that anger into something positive and go and actually help the people you feel so strongly about.
The only people who can do anything positive and useful about it are the Western politicians, who are so far up Israeli bums that they must be finding breathing anything but noxious fumes difficult....and who have never been known to take any notice of the opinions of the people who elect them and pay their wages.
Joe Punter can boycott goods in the likes of Tesco which are called Israeli, but are actually produced by Israeli firms illegally parked in Palestinian territory...if they can be bothered checking out the labels and know their geography.....and some of us do. Joe Punter can sign petitions, as I do...the latest one is, yet again, to UEFA objecting to Israel staging the u-21 International matches in 2013 given their human rights record (and though that wasn't mentioned, the fact that they are not even in Europe but in Africa!). Signed at least a couple of them since the UEFA decision was announced, with as much impact as a million people descending on Westminster to object to the Iraq war had. I've been trying to find a petition to the SFA and the other football authorities in the UK to encourage them to boycott the UEFA u-21 championships in Israel...but so far nothing has turned up. If anyone knows of one, I'd appreciate a link...I'd do it myself, and may be forced to.....but haven't quite worked out the best way yet to make it "official"...so if anyone can explain how to go about that,I'd be grateful.
We punters might like to think what we say or do has impact, but it doesn't really when it comes to Government. Once we have voted in a general election, our usefulness and opinions stop counting....you know it, I know it, everybody knows it.
If you really think that individual opinions/actions have any weight at all in anything, you don't live in the same "democracy" as I do.
I don't agree with fred on much, believe me....but on the Israel/Palestine situation I do, though I may not be as confrontational as fred...but that is not for me to decide.
Ofcourse i live in the same democracy as you,thats a stupid thing to say and ofcourse an individual can make a difference,everyone has a voice,all movements start with one man/woman's vision to change the world around them.All im saying is it doesnt do anyone any good coming here moaning and falling out with people just because their views are different from yours,do something positive if you feel so strongly about something.
The only people who can do anything positive and useful about it are the Western politicians, who are so far up Israeli bums that they must be finding breathing anything but noxious fumes difficult....and who have never been known to take any notice of the opinions of the people who elect them and pay their wages.
Joe Punter can boycott goods in the likes of Tesco which are called Israeli, but are actually produced by Israeli firms illegally parked in Palestinian territory...if they can be bothered checking out the labels and know their geography.....and some of us do. Joe Punter can sign petitions, as I do...the latest one is, yet again, to UEFA objecting to Israel staging the u-21 International matches in 2013 given their human rights record (and though that wasn't mentioned, the fact that they are not even in Europe but in Africa!). Signed at least a couple of them since the UEFA decision was announced, with as much impact as a million people descending on Westminster to object to the Iraq war had. I've been trying to find a petition to the SFA and the other football authorities in the UK to encourage them to boycott the UEFA u-21 championships in Israel...but so far nothing has turned up. If anyone knows of one, I'd appreciate a link...I'd do it myself, and may be forced to.....but haven't quite worked out the best way yet to make it "official"...so if anyone can explain how to go about that,I'd be grateful.
We punters might like to think what we say or do has impact, but it doesn't really when it comes to Government. Once we have voted in a general election, our usefulness and opinions stop counting....you know it, I know it, everybody knows it.
If you really think that individual opinions/actions have any weight at all in anything, you don't live in the same "democracy" as I do.
I don't agree with fred on much, believe me....but on the Israel/Palestine situation I do, though I may not be as confrontational as fred...but that is not for me to decide.
Just like the Palestinians the Israelis have an extreme wing who have as much thoughts about Palestinian rights as Fred has about Jewish rights. In fact there are some on this thread who think the Jews have no rights. Thats a good way to settle a dispute.
The israeli government know that unless they make a settlement with the Palestinians they will be at war forever. The extremists on both sides dont want that.
That settlement would mean a withdrawel to 1967 borders and part of Jerusalum as a Palestinian capital. That becomes more difficult as more settlers move in but the more Freds the more settlers.
Just like the Palestinians the Israelis have an extreme wing who have as much thoughts about Palestinian rights as Fred has about Jewish rights. In fact there are some on this thread who think the Jews have no rights. Thats a good way to settle a dispute.
The israeli government know that unless they make a settlement with the Palestinians they will be at war forever. The extremists on both sides dont want that.
That settlement would mean a withdrawel to 1967 borders and part of Jerusalum as a Palestinian capital. That becomes more difficult as more settlers move in but the more Freds the more settlers.
You are confusing Jewish with Israeli. To be anti-Israel is a totally different thing to being anti-Jewish. I am one quarter Jewish, but I am steadfastly opposed to Israel's humanitarian crimes and their ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
All im saying is it doesnt do anyone any good coming here moaning and falling out with people just because their views are different from yours,do something positive if you feel so strongly about something.
Speaking from an outsider point of view I have looked through the thread and 'fred' posted a lot of facts about the Palestinian/Israeli issue, and then posts #56 and #66 started making it personal against 'fred', 'fred' then replied to those personal attacks. Neither is in the right, not those who instigated the personal attacks or 'fred' for responding to them, but I don't think posting facts on an issue is 'moaning and falling out with people', when those people are the ones who personalised the argument because they didn't like the position taken by 'fred'. Personally I think name-calling etc. in a discussion is childish and will just ignore it. It makes for a much more pleasant online experience.
Hi Flynn
Fred was making it personal long before that,look at #24.Then the intimidating shameful comment by Fred (#71) was a disgrace,how dare he try to turn this into an anti islam/muslim arguement,he accused another orger for being racist (#78) a very serious accusation.Freds reason for this disgusting comment was "Once again as it didn't seem to sink in first time, Golach started it, if he's going to bring racial prejudice into the discussion then so am I"
Slanderous and threatening come to mind as well as moaning and childish.
Speaking from an outsider point of view I have looked through the thread and 'fred' posted a lot of facts about the Palestinian/Israeli issue, and then posts #56 and #66 started making it personal against 'fred', 'fred' then replied to those personal attacks. Neither is in the right, not those who instigated the personal attacks or 'fred' for responding to them, but I don't think posting facts on an issue is 'moaning and falling out with people', when those people are the ones who personalised the argument because they didn't like the position taken by 'fred'. Personally I think name-calling etc. in a discussion is childish and will just ignore it. It makes for a much more pleasant online experience.
Ok, I think I have a measure of what is going on here now. It's ok for what appears to be an established group to single out one person for personal insults based on that person's opinions and political standpoint, but it is not ok for that person to respond to those insults. I've seen enough. If that is how it works here then I don't think I really want to be a part of it. My apologies if I'm wrong.
Regarding 'What is the matter with you?' that is a throwaway comment in any conversation, it's certainly nothing to get upset over.
Just like the Palestinians the Israelis have an extreme wing who have as much thoughts about Palestinian rights as Fred has about Jewish rights. In fact there are some on this thread who think the Jews have no rights. Thats a good way to settle a dispute.
The israeli government know that unless they make a settlement with the Palestinians they will be at war forever. The extremists on both sides dont want that.
That settlement would mean a withdrawel to 1967 borders and part of Jerusalum as a Palestinian capital. That becomes more difficult as more settlers move in but the more Freds the more settlers.
My beliefs are based on the facts and a sense of natural justice.
What do you base your beliefs on?
Flynn .. been asked to put another perspective on it for you.
This thread is brilliant. It's a repeat from a few years back. Fred throws out the hook and people are just fighting to bury their gums in it. Now before I get slated for that opening comment .. I used to be as guilty as anyone. An old mate showed me this thread, and Fred has been doing this for a while and in the past I took him on as I actually knew something from personal experience of what he was standing on his soapbox about. But let me save you some time on this discussion, funnily enough one of Fred's old causes, because it wont go anywhere. None of them ever did anything except waste bandwidth.
Fred sits at this little computer googling and think that makes him an expert on anything and everything. His opinion is fact and beyond reproach in his view. I know, I tried explaining things to him in the past that I knew about and/or had experienced and it just hits a dead end. It just does not compute, the only reason he wants a response is so he can recycle it into yet another condescending little speech that makes his so much smarter than the rest of us. It probably never occurs to him that other people can work the internet too .. no, Fred knows and sees all. He is here to "educate" us but refuses to see anyone's side but his own. I'm just surprised his sock puppet hasn't turned up yet. Or maybe he has.
Now I admire people who have passion, I think we all do. I even professed to like Fred as he at least made things entertaining .. and I genuinely did despite being polar opposites opinion wise in virtually every subject discussed. But if someone sets themselves up as "that guy" then people deeming to like him isn't acceptable at all, no sir. If you have a go at Fred then he plays the victim but is far from helpless. He made private comments to me about some friends of mine who were unable to defend themsleves. I was incensed to the point that I walked away from the forum. Sometime later I was in Caithness and was in the same vicinity as some company Fred was in. I found him quite a pleasant articulate guy, up to that point I had said that if I met him I was going to rattle him so hard his family tree would shake. But I quickly saw him for what he is. He is a know it all, he is that guy in the pub who, if you said he had been to Tenerife he would have been to Elevenerife. The guy who, whatever subject is up for discussion knows far more than you about it. And not worthy of time or discussion because it's like talking to a brick wall.
I see he has also started a discussion about child abuse. Maybe someone can dig up the thread where he ranted on about the alleged abuse of a girl by virtually every level of Government and Church, as I recall even after it was openly proved a hoax he was still on his soapbox proclaiming his "truth".
Ignore him. You'll be happier for it. Nice guy in real life. Utter twonk on the internet.
Flynn .. been asked to put another perspective on it for you.
This thread is brilliant. It's a repeat from a few years back. Fred throws out the hook and people are just fighting to bury their gums in it. Now before I get slated for that opening comment .. I used to be as guilty as anyone. An old mate showed me this thread, and Fred has been doing this for a while and in the past I took him on as I actually knew something from personal experience of what he was standing on his soapbox about. But let me save you some time on this discussion, funnily enough one of Fred's old causes, because it wont go anywhere. None of them ever did anything except waste bandwidth.
Fred sits at this little computer googling and think that makes him an expert on anything and everything. His opinion is fact and beyond reproach in his view. I know, I tried explaining things to him in the past that I knew about and/or had experienced and it just hits a dead end. It just does not compute, the only reason he wants a response is so he can recycle it into yet another condescending little speech that makes his so much smarter than the rest of us. It probably never occurs to him that other people can work the internet too .. no, Fred knows and sees all. He is here to "educate" us but refuses to see anyone's side but his own. I'm just surprised his sock puppet hasn't turned up yet. Or maybe he has.
Now I admire people who have passion, I think we all do. I even professed to like Fred as he at least made things entertaining .. and I genuinely did despite being polar opposites opinion wise in virtually every subject discussed. But if someone sets themselves up as "that guy" then people deeming to like him isn't acceptable at all, no sir. If you have a go at Fred then he plays the victim but is far from helpless. He made private comments to me about some friends of mine who were unable to defend themsleves. I was incensed to the point that I walked away from the forum. Sometime later I was in Caithness and was in the same vicinity as some company Fred was in. I found him quite a pleasant articulate guy, up to that point I had said that if I met him I was going to rattle him so hard his family tree would shake. But I quickly saw him for what he is. He is a know it all, he is that guy in the pub who, if you said he had been to Tenerife he would have been to Elevenerife. The guy who, whatever subject is up for discussion knows far more than you about it. And not worthy of time or discussion because it's like talking to a brick wall.
I see he has also started a discussion about child abuse. Maybe someone can dig up the thread where he ranted on about the alleged abuse of a girl by virtually every level of Government and Church, as I recall even after it was openly proved a hoax he was still on his soapbox proclaiming his "truth".
Ignore him. You'll be happier for it. Nice guy in real life. Utter twonk on the internet.
But the building of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land is illegal under international law isn't it?
Hello again Flynn or is it goodbye again?
Please tell me about this established group that single's out people for personal insults,i would like to know who they are so i can take them head on.
Now the "What is the matter with you" comment didnt upset me,as you can see by my original reply,it might seem to be a throw away comment to you but by the mere implication that Fred suggests that something might be wrong with me because i asked a question he didnt like was a childish attempt to ridicule and belittle me.Do you think his serious racist and anti muslim comment is as throw away as the comment he directed at me or did you just think he was right?
Thanks
Ok, I think I have a measure of what is going on here now. It's ok for what appears to be an established group to single out one person for personal insults based on that person's opinions and political standpoint, but it is not ok for that person to respond to those insults. I've seen enough. If that is how it works here then I don't think I really want to be a part of it. My apologies if I'm wrong.
Regarding 'What is the matter with you?' that is a throwaway comment in any conversation, it's certainly nothing to get upset over.
Hello again Flynn or is it goodbye again?
Please tell me about this established group that single's out people for personal insults,i would like to know who they are so i can take them head on.
Now the "What is the matter with you" comment didnt upset me,as you can see by my original reply,it might seem to be a throw away comment to you but by the mere implication that Fred suggests that something might be wrong with me because i asked a question he didnt like was a childish attempt to ridicule and belittle me.Do you think his serious racist and anti muslim comment is as throw away as the comment he directed at me or did you just think he was right?
Thanks
But since the ceasefire two Palestinians have been shot dead and forty injured by the Israeli army haven't they?
That is sad Fred
But since the ceasefire two Palestinians have been shot dead and forty injured by the Israeli army haven't they?
That is sad Fred
This is even sadder.
Britain supplied them with the bullets.
http://http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmdfence/419/41925.htm
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