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gerry4
27-Oct-12, 20:23
I have just come back from the initial meeting of Yes Highland in Inverness.

There were many people attending, from all parties, Greens, Socialists, Labour & myself a LibDem, as well as the SNP. This is Yes Scotlands aim, to bring together people from all parties, people not aligned to any party, to work for a Yes vote in 2014.

Yes Scotland wants local groups. Why not think about working with like minded people, from all parties, for the Yes vote in 2014 and then be able to vote for the government that the scottish people want in 2016?

secrets in symmetry
27-Oct-12, 20:26
How can you have "like minded" people in a Yes campaign? Where are the minds you need for that?

ducati
27-Oct-12, 23:49
Great idea. I'll start a local don't be daft group

cptdodger
28-Oct-12, 00:01
Yes Scotland wants local groups. Why not think about working with like minded people, from all parties, for the Yes vote in 2014 and then be able to vote for the government that the scottish people want in 2016?

I do'nt understand, if you have already decided to vote yes - why do you need to form local groups? To work towards what exactly? I know how I'm voting, and no amount of groups this "Yes Scotland" lot come up with will make me change my mind.

gerry4
28-Oct-12, 09:52
I am glad cptdodger that you have made up your mind but around a 1/3 have not. The No parties have their structures already in place and people to canvas for them. As LibDem I know that their local party machine will be working to persuade people to vote again an independent scotland. Combine that with the Labour & the Conservative local party machines also persuading people to vote No then the Yes campaign has a job to get its vote heard.

The Yes Scotland group is non political, non party group. We do not propose policies for a independent Scotland. That will come in the 2016 election when independence is won. It is also a group that people from all parties can join.

John Little
28-Oct-12, 12:05
'Yes Scotland' is non political ???

BlingBling
28-Oct-12, 12:32
"Like minded"? SMALL minded more like. Every opinion poll for years shows that "No No No!" will prevail. The referendum and all the campaigning is a complete waste of time and money - other than that the final result in 2014 will put the Nats firmly back in their box.


I have just come back from the initial meeting of Yes Highland in Inverness.

There were many people attending, from all parties, Greens, Socialists, Labour & myself a LibDem, as well as the SNP. This is Yes Scotlands aim, to bring together people from all parties, people not aligned to any party, to work for a Yes vote in 2014.

Yes Scotland wants local groups. Why not think about working with like minded people, from all parties, for the Yes vote in 2014 and then be able to vote for the government that the scottish people want in 2016?

golach
28-Oct-12, 12:39
Have to say I am with cptdodger, I have already made up my mind on how I am going to vote, best of luck with your yes campaign, it does nothing for me.

billmoseley
28-Oct-12, 12:55
Now i know all this independence thing is very important and should not be taken lightly but am i the only person on the org that is getting tired of every other thread being about it. Could the Org Master not start a separate part of the Org devoted to it?

secrets in symmetry
28-Oct-12, 13:10
'Yes Scotland' is non political ???You couldn't make it up!

The problem is that the secessionists do make it up! They redefine terms such as "non political" to mean the opposite of what it really means, they make up "facts", they make up everything! They should be locked up!

At least their energy policies will provide jobs for all. :cool:

http://i.imgur.com/UEvTY.jpg

Rheghead
28-Oct-12, 15:13
Now i know all this independence thing is very important and should not be taken lightly but am i the only person on the org that is getting tired of every other thread being about it. Could the Org Master not start a separate part of the Org devoted to it?

That would be good in theory but it seems the secessionists are now blaming the Union for everything.

gerry4
28-Oct-12, 15:25
'Yes Scotland' is non political ???

Yes, by non political I mean they do not put forward policies from any particular party. Remember the SNP are not the only party supporting Yes Scotland. The Greens, Scottish Socialist, as well as members of Labour & LibDem's. We all have our vision of an independant Scotland. Some parts will be the same, others different.

billmoseley (http://forum.caithness.org/member.php?14591-billmoseley) Sorry if there are too many threats for you but I did try to make mine obvious by the title and so those not interested could avoid it.

Those who do not wish for a proper discussion, I will ignore. If they wish to waste their time then so be it.

cptdodger
28-Oct-12, 19:20
That will come in the 2016 election when independence is won.

Again, what are the groups for ? You have stated that every single person eligible to vote, is going to vote for independence, so why bother. With that statement you are either very naive, or very arrogant.

Rheghead
28-Oct-12, 23:28
The Yes Scotland group is non political

I thought the Conservative party's full name included the line 'and Unionist party' as well? So your attempt to redefine what you think is non political has met its first stumbling block.

Jerrico
29-Oct-12, 02:23
Europe's the worlds debt crisis is not just causing economic chaos. It is also providing ammunition to opponents of Scottish independence, who are preparing for 2014 referendum. Scots who think the economy would be a lot stronger under independence are very mistaken. Support for independence dropped Scots now believed a independent Scottish economy would be a lot weaker turning the country into third world status. Its common sense to keep the union in this uncertain economic future. One might be turned into voting YES if the worlds economy was booming and there's major growth in all sectors in Scotland, with the way things are now looking I'm defiantly voting NO and no SNP or any politician with the YES agenda will convince me other wise. Voting YES is suicide for Scotland and will ruin my Bonnie Scotland.

Camra
29-Oct-12, 18:57
I'm interested as to how we ensure only Scottish nationals are able to vote on this issue

John Little
29-Oct-12, 19:36
I'm interested as to how we ensure only Scottish nationals are able to vote on this issue

Well I aint no genius on the issue but it seems to me that online registration requiring place of birth, date etc might be a start.

Birth place is a major consideration. You may not be President of the United States if born outside the country.

But if a Scot wants a better life, or a warm climate, or job opportunities not north of the wall, then they seem to lose their say.

To me that's the distinction. Scots voting on Scotland is Nationalism and fair enough.

Tom, Dick and Harriet voting on Scotland because they happen to have moved there is Secession- and if they can do that, then why not Yorkshire?

Oddquine
29-Oct-12, 22:05
Have to say I am with cptdodger, I have already made up my mind on how I am going to vote, best of luck with your yes campaign, it does nothing for me.

So the easy thing to do is put you on ignore if it is pointless responding to you when you post to argue not discuss?

I'm not bothered about my pension in an Independent Scotland, btw...kinda wonder why you are. I'd have thought that either the UK would be obliged to treat people who live in Scotland exactly the same as they do people who off to live in Spain, Thailand, the USA, Canada etc...as in they get their pensions, because they have paid for them...or alternatively, the rUK could decide to give us a pot of money which would allow Scotland to meet the old UK obligations on the pension front. Never quite managed to work out why a divorce between countries should be considered that much different from a divorce from any other legal contract tbh. You care to tell me the difference you perceive?

Oddquine
29-Oct-12, 22:06
Well I aint no genius on the issue but it seems to me that online registration requiring place of birth, date etc might be a start.

Birth place is a major consideration. You may not be President of the United States if born outside the country.

But if a Scot wants a better life, or a warm climate, or job opportunities not north of the wall, then they seem to lose their say.

To me that's the distinction. Scots voting on Scotland is Nationalism and fair enough.

Tom, Dick and Harriet voting on Scotland because they happen to have moved there is Secession- and if they can do that, then why not Yorkshire?

Why would Scottish nationals be the only people allowed to vote when that is never the way it has worked in any other election in Scotland? In every other election, those registered to vote in Scotland can vote. If Scots no longer in Scotland still wanted input into our decisions...well, they could always have not registered to vote where they were currently living, and held onto their vote here......couldn't they?

Oddquine
29-Oct-12, 22:15
I thought the Conservative party's full name included the line 'and Unionist party' as well? So your attempt to redefine what you think is non political has met its first stumbling block.

The YES, Scotland Group is not a political party...so big fail there for a start, Rheghead! Have you actually ever read the website?

Out of interest, if Scotland had not been in the Union since 1707 and was still an Independent Country...would you be voting for us to join the Union now?

John Little
29-Oct-12, 22:19
"Our decisions".

So somehow they are no longer their decisions because they have moved. You get to decide who is a first class Scot and who is a second class Scot because they dared to leave.

So while they are out of the country, travelling, working, etc you allow every Pole, Rumanian etc who has a vote by virtue of residence to vote on the break up of the UK on the grounds that The Scots are deciding their nations future while hundreds of thousands of Scots are disqualified from voting.

You're having a laugh.

From where I stand there is no difference between your lot and a residents association.

golach
29-Oct-12, 23:26
So the easy thing to do is put you on ignore if it is pointless responding to you when you post to argue not discuss?
Put me on ignore if you wish, makes no odds to me.
I have nothing to argue or discuss in the matter of independence, I know what my feelings on the subject are. I also have no wish to write paragraphs of nonsensical gobbledegook for my self gratification.

changilass
29-Oct-12, 23:52
"Our decisions".

So somehow they are no longer their decisions because they have moved. You get to decide who is a first class Scot and who is a second class Scot because they dared to leave.

So while they are out of the country, travelling, working, etc you allow every Pole, Rumanian etc who has a vote by virtue of residence to vote on the break up of the UK on the grounds that The Scots are deciding their nations future while hundreds of thousands of Scots are disqualified from voting.

You're having a laugh.

From where I stand there is no difference between your lot and a residents association.

Going by this, hubby and I should be able to vote in Caithness local elections even though we are now living in Aberdeen.
Does this also mean that as I was born abroad as a forces brat, I should be able to vote in their elections?

Folks chose to leave the country, why then should they have a say?

Oddquine
30-Oct-12, 00:11
"Our decisions".

So somehow they are no longer their decisions because they have moved. You get to decide who is a first class Scot and who is a second class Scot because they dared to leave.

So while they are out of the country, travelling, working, etc you allow every Pole, Rumanian etc who has a vote by virtue of residence to vote on the break up of the UK on the grounds that The Scots are deciding their nations future while hundreds of thousands of Scots are disqualified from voting.

You're having a laugh.

From where I stand there is no difference between your lot and a residents association.

Well. NO, actually, there is a difference....the UK Government doesn't set out the rules for residents' associations..but I'm sure you are not really as thick as you are making out, and are just posting for the sake of saying something, however stupid.

The UK decided that for us..and for all those who decided to clear off and register to vote where they lived!

FYI (though I don't expect you to believe it) ....from the Electoral Commission Website....
Who can register to vote?

Anyone aged 16 or over (but you cannot vote until you are 18).
British or qualifying Commonwealth (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgovernment/TheUKandtheworld/DG_073421) citizens. This means Commonwealth citizens who have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland or other European Union (EU) member states.

Who can vote?

British, Irish and qualifying citizens of Commonwealth countries (including Cyprus and Malta) (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgovernment/TheUKandtheworld/DG_073421) can vote at all elections.
Citizens of other EU member states resident in the UK can vote in local government elections but cannot vote in UK Parliamentary elections.
Those resident in Scotland or Wales may also vote in Scottish Parliamentary or National Assembly for Wales elections.

So the franchise in a Scottish independence referendum would be the same as for a Scottish Parliament election and for a local council election..as the UK Government dictates. Think about it.....if the UK Government actually wanted to let Scots who were not registered in Scotland vote in the referendum...that could have been negotiated at the Edinburgh meeting, couldn't it? After all the extension of the franchise to under 18s is against the UK Electoral Rules, but that is going to happen...so there was no reason why the ex-pat vote couldn't have as well...except that neither Government decided it was an issue, bar in the minds of people who don't want to live here at any price, but would kinda like to be telling us how we should be living our lives, while they do their own thing elsewhere.

Funny that people who are...absolutely ecstatic at the idea that the UK Government should be responsible for sending our citizens out to be killed in wars undertaken for the USA's benefit; accept with equanimity that the UK Government believes that people dying of cancer, without a working limb etc are fit to work; like the idea that the NHS, education etc should be privatised (even though that privatisation means a commensurate reduction in the block grant which pays for the likes of our free prescriptions, bus passes, council tax freezes etc...and is a reduction on top of the percentage cut we attract year on year as part of the "we are all in this together....unless you are wealthy" UK budget policies) and other such unfair and inequitable decisions imposed on all to benefit the relatively few.....yet get uptight because Scots who no longer live here, although they could if they wanted, aren't getting a right to which they are not and have never been entitled.

Something far wrong with your priorities, methinks.

John Little
30-Oct-12, 09:02
What an excellent advert for the SNP.

Arrogant, lip-curling condescension, scornful, gratuitously insulting and a sneering bigot to boot. You might be the perfect model for one of those English aristocrats in "Rob Roy"

Or Lord Snooty for example.

But I forgot.You have a problem with "English".

You don't get it.

This is not an ordinary election, local or national.

This is a one-off vote on the breakup of the United Kingdom.

The politicians may prattle all they like on the rules- and I am sure that they too have their own agendas; just as you have yours, as you are fond of reminding us. They get things wrong too. The normal rules do not necessarily apply to unique situations- unless to people with nit picking and inflexible minds

.I don't suppose that it occurred to you that some cunning plan might have been hatched somewhere to undermine the legitimacy of the vote by disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of Scots?But your post is very revealing. Scots who leave lose all say in the matter because they dared to leave - the effrontery of it!

There are voices in the SNP who express unease at this. But you have it set in tablets of stone that there is a penalty to pay for leaving: your homeland disowns your right to have any say in its future.

Well lets hope they have an understanding attitude towards that - not that you care of course. Lord Snootys do not - as you would know. After all, Lord Snooty is a Scottish creation is he not, having impeccable descent from DC Thompsons of Dundee?

A comic stereotype; taken as real by gullible minds who believe what they see in comics.


BTW since the qualification for voting in the referendum is residency, not birth, not ethnicity, it appears that the government do, in this case, set the rules for a residents association.


Oh and also BTW - I do not believe in any of the bile you have put in your last paragraph.

That's not me.

You confusing me with someone else or do you just think that all the English think the same?

Camra
30-Oct-12, 21:17
Might as well ask 'would you like free booze' with no regard for the consequences

Oddquine
02-Nov-12, 11:30
WARNING.....I'm going to post a lot of responses to individual points because the one thing I have noticed about Unionists on here is that they tend not to read the whole of anything which requires any great level of concentration. I'm afraid I'm not going to manage any response in short easily digestible sound bites, though..which appears to be their attention limits....but I will try to make my responses as short as I can while still responding adequately to the original comment.


What an excellent advert for the SNP.

Which part of I haven't been a member of or actively involved in the SNP since the late 1990s have you failed to glean from my posts on this forum and elsewhere? I do my own thing and have my own opinions. I don't simply regurgitate SNP propaganda, as so many on here extoll the propaganda produced by the Union.

I am as much an advert for the SNP as Rheghead is. :roll: I like the idea of Independence..he likes the idea of filling Scotland with windmills......both SNP policies, granted....but also of the Scottish Greens and the SSP.

I don't want to be in NATO, and prefer the Scottish Greens policy on that... and on the EU and stopping windmill proliferation, I am happier with the Scottish Democratic Alliance's policies....so how come I speak for the SNP every time I hit my keyboard..and yet every time Rheghead encourages us to hug a windmill, he isn't accused of the same?

Oddquine
02-Nov-12, 13:46
Arrogant, lip-curling condescension, scornful, gratuitously insulting and a sneering bigot to boot. You might be the perfect model for one of those English aristocrats in "Rob Roy"

Or Lord Snooty for example.

But I forgot.You have a problem with "English".

Arrogant, lip-curling condescension, scornful, gratuitously insulting and a sneering bigot to boot. is an attitude learned from Unionist politicians in the media and pro-Union posters on forums. Have you never reread your own posts? (Much obliged, Unionists...if you think you don't have to play nicely...that saves the rest of us from having to do it, does it not?) How come you are all very happy to dish it out to us, but not so happy to take it yourselves, I wonder? Self esteem/chip on shoulder issues mayhap? :roll:

Given you are the one stamping your feet and pouting because you and others who don't live here have no right to be involved in something which won't impact on your day to day life at all....you appear to be much more the perfect model for one of those English aristocrats in "Rob Roy", imo..not that I've ever read the book or watched a film about him to know to what kind of person you allude. Don't much like Sir Walter Scott's novels, tbh..much prefer Dickens. Can't think where I have ever used the Lord Snooty description either, though I'm sure you can tell me and in what context I have used it. If I absolutely had to define a Lord Snooty, btw...I'd probably say I see him more as an Anglicised Scot than English. Funny how different people with different POVs will "see" words in different ways, isn't it?

Would my problem with "English" be what you think of the language/grammar/spelling/syntax of my posts, or some kind of problem you perceive that I have with English-born people in general, some of whom, incidentally are relations/connections of mine living in England (and aren't demanding a vote in the referendum)? If the first. I don't care what you think of my method of expressing myself....and if the second, please delineate what you have convinced yourself are my problems with "English" as a whole.

Sure I have problems with the UK Government (but that simply makes me anti-politicians of any nationality in the Union)...and definitely I have problems with the way some individual English people with attitude propound their opinions in person or in print..but it is the attitude, and not the opinion, which gets up my left nostril....just as it does regardless of the nationality of the speaker/poster. The problem with dissent is rarely the difference of opinion, more the inabiity that some have to realise that a difference of opinion is an opportunity for discussion and not an opportunity to produce a succession of ad hominems or insults.

weezer 316
02-Nov-12, 14:37
Good luck Gerry. Im opposed to independence but as I have stated umpteen times someone needs to make the case for it as the SNP are totally failing to do that. There is a case to me made but at present it boils down to voting for an accent and pointing childish fingers at London, and the tories in particular.

John Little
02-Nov-12, 18:32
"Would my problem with "English" be what you think of the language/grammar/spelling/syntax of my posts, or some kind of problem you perceive that I have with English-born people in general, some of whom, incidentally are relations/connections of mine living in England (and aren't demanding a vote in the referendum)? If the first. I don't care what you think of my method of expressing myself....and if the second, please delineate what you have convinced yourself are my problems with "English" as a whole."

Sure you want an answer to that?

I have Google too.

John Little
02-Nov-12, 18:40
Arrogant, lip-curling condescension, scornful, gratuitously insulting and a sneering bigot to boot. is an attitude learned from Unionist politicians in the media and pro-Union posters on forums. Have you never reread your own posts? (Much obliged, Unionists...if you think you don't have to play nicely...that saves the rest of us from having to do it, does it not?) How come you are all very happy to dish it out to us, but not so happy to take it yourselves, I wonder? Self esteem/chip on shoulder issues mayhap? :roll:

LOL! I don't need to. I am musing for my own benefit really and not trying to convert. Besides, I've read enough Oddquine comments on other forums to know what arrogance really is.

Given you are the one stamping your feet and pouting because you and others who don't live here have no right to be involved in something which won't impact on your day to day life at all....you appear to be much more the perfect model for one of those English aristocrats in "Rob Roy", imo..not that I've ever read the book or watched a film about him to know to what kind of person you allude. Don't much like Sir Walter Scott's novels, tbh..


I'm glad - I got it wrong. They were Scottish.

So the break up of my country won't impact my daily life. Thanks for the reassurance.

much prefer Dickens. Can't think where I have ever used the Lord Snooty description either, though I'm sure you can tell me and in what context I have used it. If I absolutely had to define a Lord Snooty, btw...I'd probably say I see him more as an Anglicised Scot than English. Funny how different people with different POVs will "see" words in different ways, isn't it?

I never at any point said you used the Lord Snooty description. Read my post again. That was Mr Salmond, but since you are not an SNP member you would not mind that would you?


Sure I have problems with the UK Government (but that simply makes me anti-politicians of any nationality in the Union)...and definitely I have problems with the way some individual English people with attitude propound their opinions in person or in print..but it is the attitude, and not the opinion, which gets up my left nostril....just as it does regardless of the nationality of the speaker/poster. The problem with dissent is rarely the difference of opinion, more the inabiity that some have to realise that a difference of opinion is an opportunity for discussion and not an opportunity to produce a succession of ad hominems or insults.

People use ad hominems! And you object! Lord the pot calls the kettle black.

You have a very large web presence. Most illuminating your views.

Oddquine
02-Nov-12, 18:41
"Would my problem with "English" be what you think of the language/grammar/spelling/syntax of my posts, or some kind of problem you perceive that I have with English-born people in general, some of whom, incidentally are relations/connections of mine living in England (and aren't demanding a vote in the referendum)? If the first. I don't care what you think of my method of expressing myself....and if the second, please delineate what you have convinced yourself are my problems with "English" as a whole."

Sure you want an answer to that?

I have Google too.

Tell you what.....you give me the links, you have found...or tell me what you put in as search terms and I'll find them for myself on Google....either way I'll put my comments in context for you! Deal?

John Little
02-Nov-12, 18:48
Cool!

"Re the English voter ( who are by far the majority UK Tory supporters) they just read labels. Tory good..anything saying Labour bad!

If like us, they actually read policies, and looked back to see what Nulabour didn't do to combat the policies put in place by the Tories during their terms in Government, they would have realised, as we in Scotland have that the Nulabour Party in Westminster will sell their principles for power. "

http://www.politicalforum.com/western-europe/228976-scots-begin-struggle-independence-22.html

So 'The English Voter" is not a stereotype who all think alike then?


"Thinking about it....was/is there any difference in the English mind between India, and other members of the old Empire and Scotland regarding attitude........as in they own it so can dictate to it?

In the case of Scotland, if England had ever, at any stage, accepted that we were not just another region of England, and let us be us in a negotiated Federal system....we wouldn't be where we are today......and, with the best will in the world, it is hard to blame the Scots because the English majority do arrogance to the nth degree..unless, of course, you are a Unionist."

http://www.politicalforum.com/western-europe/228976-scots-begin-struggle-independence-15.html

England. 'The English mind"

All of us.

And we do arrogance to the nth degree.

All of us.

And we are your colonial masters who dictate to you.

weezer 316
02-Nov-12, 19:00
Europe's the worlds debt crisis is not just causing economic chaos. It is also providing ammunition to opponents of Scottish independence, who are preparing for 2014 referendum. Scots who think the economy would be a lot stronger under independence are very mistaken. Support for independence dropped Scots now believed a independent Scottish economy would be a lot weaker turning the country into third world status. Its common sense to keep the union in this uncertain economic future. One might be turned into voting YES if the worlds economy was booming and there's major growth in all sectors in Scotland, with the way things are now looking I'm defiantly voting NO and no SNP or any politician with the YES agenda will convince me other wise. Voting YES is suicide for Scotland and will ruin my Bonnie Scotland.

What the hell was that!?!?!

People like you dont help matters. One one hand we have Oddaquine spouting nationalist nonsense, you are the unionist version minus punctuation.

Do you actully think Scotland would be a third world country? Do you honestly belive that? And if so, based on what evidence? I am aaallllll ears....

John Little
02-Nov-12, 19:03
Of course, if anybody spoke of 'The Black Mind' or 'The Asian voter' - they'd be in trouble now - wouldn' they?

But it's okay with the English.

Love this bit:

"That's the reason that a country which would once have voted for a monkey on a stick if it was sporting a Labour rosette no longer does so in Scottish elections, where we have a real choice....because there are a lot more thinking and politically aware people among the Scottish population than among the English one who can see that you can't get a Rizla between their Tory and Nulabour policies any more."


Of course Most English are thick and do not think at all.

Not like you eh?


"Unionists may not want to be described as such, because that makes them come across as undemocratic and imperialist....but that is exactly what they are,imo. The invented 305 year old British nationality has, as far as I can see, in their minds, completely subsumed the fact that we are not one homogeneous entity, which thinks the same, reacts the same and are politically the same... but are four distinct nationalities with their own defined cultures and way of looking at things....and that invented "British nationality" is basically the English nationality extrapolated to apply to the every nation in the Union, because the English part of the pretendy "Union" is by far the majority and can force/impose their ideas, opinions, political ideas on every other part of the Union."


http://www.politicalforum.com/western-europe/228976-scots-begin-struggle-independence-39.html

Not fond of the British are we?


"All the article proves is that I am glad I never went in for applied economics or mathematics....and that producing theories on just about everything might earn the academics their wages and grants...but they can no more forecast what will happen than you or I can. And we can all come up with our own possible scenarios.......my optimistic ones....and your pessimistic Unionist ones without the help of people in gilded towers pointing out the blatantly obvious. "

I never would have guessed!


"Note...for future reference...Scotland is much less racist and xenophobic than England is. Sure we have an element of sectarianism as well...but it never bothered the UK that we had when we had no way to do anything about it ourselves, and it never bothered the UK Unionist "Scottish" Government when they could have done something about it. Generally we have no problems with anybody seeking a better life..."

Yep we got loads of racists and xenophobes down here.

Much more than in nice pink fluffy Scotland.

weezer 316
02-Nov-12, 21:00
Right I need to get involved here!

Oddaquine,

In one word your posts can largely be described as a fallacy. Your comments on culture and homogeneity are unfortunately typical of someone of your age and rely on a series of misconceptions and presumptions. Saying we have a different culture is so utterly at odds with reality I can only surmise you think nobody in Scotland plays football, listens to the beatles or watches eastenders with fish and chips.

You then claim to NOT be nationalist.....then crack on and base your entire argument, quite lucidly it seems, on nationalistic sentiment!

Someone else MUST have noticed this surely? Is it me? If it is I will go back to my rabbie burns and neaps and haggis!

John Little
02-Nov-12, 21:23
Weezie - I had noticed.

But now- condescension alert!

You are about to be talked down to, patronised - your intelligence will be questioned and you may actually be called thick or stupid and your thought processes derided in some way.

Remarks may be made on the stupidity of Unionists and a statement will be made to the effect that you ain't read her stuff properly - not to forget that you are a troll who makes 'ad hominem' attacks instead of arguing.

You may also be challenged to say one good thing about the Union.

I did that but got ignored.

It happens elsewhere on the net you see. Attack dog tactics.

It is funny how many separatists say they have no connection with the SNP.

You noticed that too.

weezer 316
02-Nov-12, 21:38
Weezie - I had noticed.

But now- condescension alert!

You are about to be talked down to, patronised - your intelligence will be questioned and you may actually be called thick or stupid and your thought processes derided in some way.

Remarks may be made on the stupidity of Unionists and a statement will be made to the effect that you ain't read her stuff properly - not to forget that you are a troll who makes 'ad hominem' attacks instead of arguing.

You may also be challenged to say one good thing about the Union.

I did that but got ignored.

It happens elsewhere on the net you see. Attack dog tactics.

It is funny how many separatists say they have no connection with the SNP.

You noticed that too.

You dont mean argumentum ad hominem do you!?!?!

Oh the irony!

JoeSoap
02-Nov-12, 21:54
I'm interested as to how we ensure only Scottish nationals are able to vote on this issue
So having moved here as a small child, grown up here, gone to school here, formed relationships here and gone to work here, you would now deny me a say in the future of the country I know and love as my own simply because I happened to be born south of the border?

What if Salmond actually pulls this off and recruits enough 16 & 17-year-olds to pass the vote? Will me (and my taxes) be welcomed back with open arms or will I have to sit quietly at the back of the bus whilst you true-blooded white folk Scots get to sit in the comfy seats at the front? [disgust]

cptdodger
02-Nov-12, 21:56
Oh dear, yet another thread that has descended into personal attacks on each other, and what for? At the end of the day (if you live in Scotland) you either vote to stay in the United Kingdom, or not. It is as simple as that. I have nothing against people that want independence, that is their choice. I posted earlier on in this thread questioning why anybody would need to form the for groups and against groups, surely, as Salmond has been talking about this forever, you have made up your minds by now. However, just because somebody does not agree with you, why attack them? It is little wonder so many people have left the Org.

weezer 316
02-Nov-12, 22:02
So the easy thing to do is put you on ignore if it is pointless responding to you when you post to argue not discuss?

I'm not bothered about my pension in an Independent Scotland, btw...kinda wonder why you are. I'd have thought that either the UK would be obliged to treat people who live in Scotland exactly the same as they do people who off to live in Spain, Thailand, the USA, Canada etc...as in they get their pensions, because they have paid for them...or alternatively, the rUK could decide to give us a pot of money which would allow Scotland to meet the old UK obligations on the pension front. Never quite managed to work out why a divorce between countries should be considered that much different from a divorce from any other legal contract tbh. You care to tell me the difference you perceive?

Had to come back to this cracker...

You have not paid for your pension. Infact few have. This is why we have an enormous deficit and have had since you were even in the work force.

I think he Uk would set aside cash for an independent scotland to meet its pension obligations though......but it would also set aside a portion of the debt we have too. Terefore, by any measure you want to put in place, your out of cash and need to find a way to either pay the pension and pay the debt when you havent got enough money to do both. Details like this is where the SNP is failing explain what it would do and critically how it would do it..

Now, saying that, Im utterly amazed you arent worried about your pension then, because if you arent then you simply haevnt asked the right questions in your head..........ergo your conclusions are based on fallacy rather than fact.

Oddquine
02-Nov-12, 22:04
Cool!

"Re the English voter ( who are by far the majority UK Tory supporters) they just read labels. Tory good..anything saying Labour bad!

If like us, they actually read policies, and looked back to see what Nulabour didn't do to combat the policies put in place by the Tories during their terms in Government, they would have realised, as we in Scotland have that the Nulabour Party in Westminster will sell their principles for power. "

http://www.politicalforum.com/western-europe/228976-scots-begin-struggle-independence-22.html

So 'The English Voter" is not a stereotype who all think alike then?


"Thinking about it....was/is there any difference in the English mind between India, and other members of the old Empire and Scotland regarding attitude........as in they own it so can dictate to it?

In the case of Scotland, if England had ever, at any stage, accepted that we were not just another region of England, and let us be us in a negotiated Federal system....we wouldn't be where we are today......and, with the best will in the world, it is hard to blame the Scots because the English majority do arrogance to the nth degree..unless, of course, you are a Unionist."

http://www.politicalforum.com/western-europe/228976-scots-begin-struggle-independence-15.html

England. 'The English mind"

All of us.

And we do arrogance to the nth degree.

All of us.

And we are your colonial masters who dictate to you.

Context is all, John Little.....if you only read what you want to read, only interpret what you want to interpret, and ignore context. then you are being economical with the truth...deliberately.

If you wanted posts in which I actually was anti-English (in a context, tbh, as a response to when an English poster was anti-Scots) I could point you at much better ones than those two you cite. If you are simply into trashing me as a person because you have no other responses to my posts, and you don't like my opinions...maybe your search terms weren't that good.....I can be quite nasty...I admit it....while still being polite enough to mostly avoid blatant ad hominems which will attract complaints from other posters and bans for me...something few unionists have learned.

If you just want to read me ranting when I know nobody is going to contradict me, and it is unlikely to turn up in a google search engine, I could give you a link to somewhere when I do what you appear, on this forum, to call musings and I would call "climbing on my soapbox" but that would require you to have the ability to read and interpret English spoken in a Scottish accent!

Have you actually read every post in that 50 page thread you cite? Really? If you have said "Yes" in your head, forgive me if I don't believe you, because your post #31 in this thread illustrates that you are not only incapable of using the "Quote " system properly, but seem incapable of reading and responding to posts as they were written. Fair enough, responding to posts without cherry-picking tends to make for long responses, which is why I get whined at because of the length of my posts.....but it is only common courtesy on forums to make it clear you ARE cherry-picking. That is why <snip> before and </snip> after the few words on which you feel able to hang your response is useful..so the rest of the world knows that you have no response to the parts of a post you prefer to ignore.

Background to the thread you cite twice...it rather helps to know the mindsets of the posters responding in it, which may not be obvious on one single thread,, but could well be if you had been reading and responding to them on the forum for the last three years and 3500 posts.

The OP was posted by a Belgian who thinks that the EU is God, maybe because much of the Belgian economy relies on harbouring the EU Parliament for half the year, and who believes that the success of Scottish Independence is predicated on joining the Euro, because he is completely EU fixated.

The other posters on it are mainly, but not solely...an English twonk who finally got banned for talking absolute pointless crap for nearly 50 pages (and believe me, getting banned on an American forum with their freedom of speech inanities, for talking crap is darned hard! ); An English individual who now lives in Canada, an ex-Tory voter, going by all his posts, but who is bliddy ecstatic to be outside the UK, collecting his pension, but not living with the UK Government crap.; An American who sometimes says something almost sensible, but most of the time trolls; An English female who does pretty much the "too poor, too stupid" crap , but seems to have had an arithmetical bypass when she claims the UK Government has often been dominated by Scots. If that is/was the case, then the UK is a dictatorship of the Scottish minority over the English majority....and I don't believe that for as second, do you? ; A Unionist Scot (I have always assumed a born-Scot) who has Churchill as his avatar; a Welshman who is pro-Welsh independence; and a very new member I know nothing about, bar his rather sensible point, which was arrogance and ignorance - the two most hated traits by the Scots ; and three of us who are definitely pro-independence.

There are undoubtedly more posters who made posts, but I only point out the ones who tended to turn up on most Independence threads on that forum.

But to get back to your two posts out of 500 on that thread which you perceive as me being "anti-English". The post on page 15 of 50......Do you deny that in the English mind there is little/no difference between India, and other members of the old Empire and Scotland regarding attitude........as in they own it so can dictate to it? If so kindly tell me where you see that difference regarding control?

And, Page 22 of 50, I said Re the English voter ( who are by far the majority UK Tory supporters) they just read labels. Tory good..anything saying Labour bad! Kindly explain how you interperet majority as All, pretty please? :roll:

Moira
02-Nov-12, 22:11
Oh dear, yet another thread that has descended into personal attacks on each other, and what for? At the end of the day (if you live in Scotland) you either vote to stay in the United Kingdom, or not. It is as simple as that. .......

It is little wonder so many people have left the Org.

It's worse than that. The Caithness dot Org forums do not reflect the true beliefs/opinions of those who dwell here anymore and that is a shame.

I agree.

JoeSoap
02-Nov-12, 22:19
Details like this is where the SNP is failing explain what it would do and critically how it would do it..
It is amazing just how many of what I would think are pretty important details will be "for an independent parliament to decide". It seems to be Salmond's stock answer whenever things get tricky but the problem is he comes across as somebody who wants a new game because he's seen somebody else with it but doesn't really know what it is or how to play it.

weezer 316
02-Nov-12, 22:25
Yes an independent parliament....

It will be OK. I promise. And him over there, hes english, he wants to shaft you.....probably want to bring back primae noctis too, becuase that actually happened you know, I saw it on braveheart <-------------------------------This is the current nationalist argument. Literally.

John Little
02-Nov-12, 22:33
It's worse than that. The Caithness dot Org forums do not reflect the true beliefs/opinions of those who dwell here anymore and that is a shame.I agree.

I also agree which is why I am thinking of leaving.

It's your community and I have been toying with the idea of quitting for a while. Outsiders do tend to have a skewing effect on threads.

As to Oddquine. Well she appears to have never said what she said. And it's all to do with context.

Incredible.

I am glad she asked me to post those links.

They were an education.

weezer 316
02-Nov-12, 22:44
God almighty. Please read your posts before you post. If you do and then still post, I would log off.....


. If you are simply into trashing me as a person because you have no other responses to my posts, and you don't like my opinions...maybe your search terms weren't that good.....I can be quite nasty...I admit it....while still being polite enough to mostly avoid blatant ad hominems which will attract complaints from other posters and bans for me...something few unionists have learned.

That, I am afriad, is a contradiction in terms. You belittle his responses as being simply personal attacks and therefore worthless in the CONTEXT of the argument.....then go on to say you can be quite nasty and then question the capacity of unionists to learn!!!

Can someone comfirm thats what she has just written there please? My eyes can hardly believe it

Then this gem......


If you wanted posts in which I actually was anti-English (in a context, tbh, as a response to when an English poster was anti-Scots) I could point you at much better ones than those two you cite

followed by....


But to get back to your two posts out of 500 on that thread which you perceive as me being "anti-English". The post on page 15 of 50......Do you deny that in the English mind there is little/no difference between India, and other members of the old Empire and Scotland regarding attitude........as in they own it so can dictate to it? If so kindly tell me where you see that difference regarding control?

Now not only are you accusing the England as a whole and its inhabitants one and all of being of a certian narrow mindset, you then ask for any evidence to show this isnt the case...yet had mentioned earlier that a poster in another forum had pointed out that Scots had been in charge ofg the UK......like 4 years ago, with Brown and Darling in the two most powerful jobs in Britain! And before that Blair and brown, both born in Scotland!! I dont recall Ghandi being PM do you???

The issue there is YOUR narrow, colonial mindset, as opposed to the UNION such facts would suggest!!


Breathtaking inanity.......utterly breathtaking!

JoeSoap
02-Nov-12, 22:46
So as an Englishman in Scotland I shouldn't have a say in my own future and as an 'outsider' my views and opinions aren't really valid in my home county... story of my life right here in one thread. It'd be funny if it weren't true. :roll:

focusRS
02-Nov-12, 22:53
I also agree which is why I am thinking of leaving. It's your community and I have been toying with the idea of quitting for a while. Outsiders do tend to have a skewing effect on threads.As to Oddquine. Well she appears to have never said what she said. And it's all to do with context.Incredible.I am glad she asked me to post those links. They were an education. I believe you would be doing the org a terrible injustice by leaving.

weezer 316
02-Nov-12, 23:16
And then this.......


"I'm too old to emigrate.....and the only place I could go would be New Zealand,anyway, because that resembles Scotland most re scenery and climate because I bloody hate heat. Given I have never set foot on a plane or on a boat bigger than a ferry from Gills to St Margaret's Hope in my life (and then prayed there and back at every wave, and it was choppy), I'm not about to do it now. "

Oddaquine, i would posit the very fact you have never traveled is the reason for your short sightedness. Thankfully my generation is far more worldy in its view and thats no bad thing!

http://www.politicalforum.com/western-europe/234943-how-union-benefits-scotland-scots-19.html

John Little
02-Nov-12, 23:25
There is rather an irony in settling in a land that was more blatantly stolen from its people than most. But I suppose that's an inconvenient irony. Quite a few inconvenient ironies round these days.

JoeSoap
02-Nov-12, 23:38
Not sure I follow John; are we going back to the Clearances now?

John Little
02-Nov-12, 23:46
Not sure I follow John; are we going back to the Clearances now?Good point Joe - I had not thought of those. No I meant that the Maoris were forced into submission by military means and their land settled by Europeans. Seems a curious choice in this case.

Kenn
03-Nov-12, 01:00
Can we have a counter balance, No Scotland, No Caithness...just enquiring.

changilass
03-Nov-12, 01:32
Don't be daft Liz, if there is no Scotland and No Caithness, where am I supposed to go when I want pasties. :lol:

Aaldtimer
03-Nov-12, 03:58
Don't be daft Liz, if there is no Scotland and No Caithness, where am I supposed to go when I want pasties. :lol:

Cornwall?:)

ducati
03-Nov-12, 13:33
I've pretty much given up on these threads but was prompted to see what is being said on other forums by oddquinn and JL's exchanges. I believe the Ref. will result in a no vote but it won't save Scotland. The bitterness and antipathy I've seen will probably outlive me.

billmoseley
03-Nov-12, 13:53
I've pretty much given up on these threads but was prompted to see what is being said on other forums by oddquinn and JL's exchanges. I believe the Ref. will result in a no vote but it won't save Scotland. The bitterness and antipathy I've seen will probably outlive me. That is a great point Ducati the bitterness that this is stirring up what will happen no matter which way the vote goes. That is my biggest worry of all, could we possibly see neighbours turn against each other. Before everyone rubbishes the idea just look at resent history when countries have broken up

gerry4
03-Nov-12, 20:45
So having moved here as a small child, grown up here, gone to school here, formed relationships here and gone to work here, you would now deny me a say in the future of the country I know and love as my own simply because I happened to be born south of the border?

What if Salmond actually pulls this off and recruits enough 16 & 17-year-olds to pass the vote? Will me (and my taxes) be welcomed back with open arms or will I have to sit quietly at the back of the bus whilst you true-blooded white folk Scots get to sit in the comfy seats at the front? [disgust]

One problem is there is not such thing as a Scottish National. The only nationality in the UK is British. I myself was born in England (Sunderland), with a Scottish father, but moved here when young and spent all my secondary & further education in Scotland. I would like to take out Scottish nationality but can't.

The only fair basis for voting in the referendum is to use the electoral register for Scottish elections. 16-17 year olds have been allowed to vote in elections controlled by Holyrood. For all other elections, who can vote is controlled by Westminster.

PS sorry to of been quiet but had family up and also getting ready for a holiday.

gerry4
03-Nov-12, 20:52
Oh dear, yet another thread that has descended into personal attacks on each other, and what for? At the end of the day (if you live in Scotland) you either vote to stay in the United Kingdom, or not. It is as simple as that. I have nothing against people that want independence, that is their choice. I posted earlier on in this thread questioning why anybody would need to form the for groups and against groups, surely, as Salmond has been talking about this forever, you have made up your minds by now. However, just because somebody does not agree with you, why attack them? It is little wonder so many people have left the Org.

Totally agree that this debate has no need to descend into personal attacks. That was why I ignored those who just seem to be posting to bait me.

Yes Salmond & the SNP have been talking about this for many years but in my view I don't see this as the SNP against the Unionist parties. The SNP can put forward what every vision they see for an independent Scotland. It will be the party that wins the 2016 that will govern and help shape the country.

I wanted to join Yes Scotland to show that the people other than SNP voters are in favour of independence and not to be afraid to voice it.

cptdodger
03-Nov-12, 21:23
I honestly was not posting to bait you or anybody else on here. As I said, It is your prerogative whether you vote yes or no for independence. I have known from the minute it was mentioned, how ever many years ago, I would vote against it. That has nothing to do with politics, I just do not want to see the United Kingdom broken up, and I am not afraid to voice that. The people that attack each other on here only do it because they are sitting in front of a computer, and they can type what they want, would they say these things if they were face to face ? I highly doubt it.

I will say, I, along with you, gerry4, JoeSoap, and whoever else on here that was not born in Caithness, will always be seen as "incomers" or "outsiders" or, another term used recently "white settlers", by some on here, and yes, I was born in Scotland, just not here. Can you imagine what's going to happen if you get Independence ? As Ducati and Billmoseley pointed out, whatever happens, it's not going to have a happy outcome.

Camra
04-Nov-12, 12:19
One problem is there is not such thing as a Scottish National. The only nationality in the UK is British. I myself was born in England (Sunderland), with a Scottish father, but moved here when young and spent all my secondary & further education in Scotland. I would like to take out Scottish nationality but can't.

The only fair basis for voting in the referendum is to use the electoral register for Scottish elections. 16-17 year olds have been allowed to vote in elections controlled by Holyrood. For all other elections, who can vote is controlled by Westminster.

PS sorry to of been quiet but had family up and also getting ready for a holiday.

Thanks Gerry4 you saw through my cunning 'plant'.

Oddquine
04-Nov-12, 14:26
I honestly was not posting to bait you or anybody else on here. As I said, It is your prerogative whether you vote yes or no for independence. I have known from the minute it was mentioned, how ever many years ago, I would vote against it. That has nothing to do with politics, I just do not want to see the United Kingdom broken up, and I am not afraid to voice that. The people that attack each other on here only do it because they are sitting in front of a computer, and they can type what they want, would they say these things if they were face to face ? I highly doubt it.

I will say, I, along with you, gerry4, JoeSoap, and whoever else on here that was not born in Caithness, will always be seen as "incomers" or "outsiders" or, another term used recently "white settlers", by some on here, and yes, I was born in Scotland, just not here. Can you imagine what's going to happen if you get Independence ? As Ducati and Billmoseley pointed out, whatever happens, it's not going to have a happy outcome.

As someone in much the same boat, as in Scottish but not born in Caithness, I don't agree with your last paragraph. Certainly there will always be some locals who resent incomers, but often that is as much down to the attitude of the incomers as the attitude of the locals. Where I am, I can only think of one, possibly two, locals who simply don't like incomers for no apparent reason other than because they are incomers. But then I have also met a couple of incomers who think that because they come from down South, whether from the Central Belt or thereabouts or England, assume that they know everything, and everybody who lives in the arse end of Scotland knows nothing....because they couldn't possibly, could they, really...so they talk down to them all the time. :roll:

The more of the latter type of incomer locals meet, the more resentment of incomers in general will be produced among locals...it's called stereotyping incomers because the only ones they have met personally are twonks..much as you have done re locals unless you have personally met every local in Caithness.

What will happen on Independence is what happens now..there will still be local arseholes and there will still be incomer arseholes and, just as they do now, after Independence they will continue to whine, because that is how their minds work.......and the rest of us will just get on with getting along. :roll:

cptdodger
04-Nov-12, 15:39
"by some on here"

As I said - by some on here (Caithness.Org Forums) I am only commenting on what I have read on certain threads. So no, I have not stereotyped every single person in Caithness - at all. I have certainly not met every single person in Caithness and I doubt you have either. I certainly do not know everything, neither have I ever claimed that I do. I have never, ever talked down to anybody in person, or attacked anybody on here for their opinions. Can you say the same Oddquine?

Oddquine
04-Nov-12, 17:32
"by some on here"

As I said - by some on here (Caithness.Org Forums) I am only commenting on what I have read on certain threads. So no, I have not stereotyped every single person in Caithness - at all. I have certainly not met every single person in Caithness and I doubt you have either. I certainly do not know everything, neither have I ever claimed that I do. I have never, ever talked down to anybody in person, or attacked anybody on here for their opinions. Can you say the same Oddquine?

Maybe I was a shade unfair, and I wasn't really meaning to direct my remarks at you specifically or accuse you specifically of anything...it was simply intended as a general comment because I haven't noticed that many anti-incomer comments by folk who could be local.....or not....on here, though I suppose it is harder on a forum to know where someone originated unless they tell you direct..and I haven't noticed any obvious anti-incomer bias in real life either. However, I generalised because you extrapolated the attitudes to some by some on a Caithness forum as equating to the attitudes of the whole of Caithness (or possibly Scotland)...as in Can you imagine what's going to happen if you get Independence ? You tell us what you imagine going to happen, then....because I said in my last sentence in my previous post what I thought would.

What do you equate to talking down to someone, anyway? I rather think that I get "talked down to" a great deal more on here in certain threads than I "talk down"...but I suppose it depends on how you want to read posts/responses. :roll:

cptdodger
04-Nov-12, 18:00
"But then I have also met a couple of incomers who think that because they come from down South, whether from the Central Belt or thereabouts or England, assume that they know everything, and everybody who lives in the arse end of Scotland knows nothing....because they couldn't possibly, could they, really...so they talk down to them all the time."

Your words, not mine. I just said I do not talk down to anybody.

" However, I generalised because you extrapolated the attitudes to some by some on a Caithness forum as equating to the attitudes of the whole of Caithness (or possibly Scotland)"

Hardly the whole of Scotland, I am Scottish remember, what part of "by some" are you not understanding? If I thought everybody in Caithness hated incomers, I would have said so.

"You tell us what you imagine going to happen, then....because I said in my last sentence in my previous post what I thought would."

Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong, none of us have a crystal ball, so we will just have to wait and see what affect the referendum will have, if it does'nt go the way some people want it to.

Rheghead
04-Nov-12, 18:30
if it does'nt go the way some people want it to.

It seems that the SNP have already broken the terms and conditions of the Edinburgh Agreement because both sides agreed to get behind Scotland's decision in 2014 yet Alex Salmond has already said that the question of independence is a matter for each generation. That doesn't suggest to me that they are prepared to get behind the decision of the nation if it doesn't go their way.

Oddquine
05-Nov-12, 00:11
It seems that the SNP have already broken the terms and conditions of the Edinburgh Agreement because both sides agreed to get behind Scotland's decision in 2014 yet Alex Salmond has already said that the question of independence is a matter for each generation. That doesn't suggest to me that they are prepared to get behind the decision of the nation if it doesn't go their way.

And which part of the "Edinburgh Agreement" applies past the 2014 Referendum? As far as I am aware it simply applies to the fact that both governments agreed that the referendum should have a clear legal base, that it should be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament and be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, government and people delivering a result which is a fair test and decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect.

So care to tell me where in all of that it says that the 2014 vote, if it is NO, kills the aspirations of the likes of my soon to be born great grandchild......as in being the next generation...and able in a max of 18 years in the future, to choose for him/herself how he/she will be governed? Terms and conditions are written down or mean nothing...and, to my knowledge, there has been no delineated entry in the agreement, far less time scale as to...."we have allowed this vote to shut you up because we expect to win....and you ain't going to be allowed to bring it up again for a few decades to irritate the UK again". Do you know different? If so, kindly provide a link.

cptdodger
05-Nov-12, 00:43
It seems that the SNP have already broken the terms and conditions of the Edinburgh Agreement because both sides agreed to get behind Scotland's decision in 2014 yet Alex Salmond has already said that the question of independence is a matter for each generation. That doesn't suggest to me that they are prepared to get behind the decision of the nation if it doesn't go their way.

So, what that says to me is, if the SNP do not get their own way in the 2014 referendum, (that is independence) then they will do this every eighteen or so years until they get the decision they want. Because if they get independence in 2014, I highly doubt they will be pushing for a referendum in 2032 to find out if "the next generation" want to join the UK again. Who's to say England, Wales and Northern Ireland would let Scotland join again ?

Rheghead
05-Nov-12, 10:23
And which part of the "Edinburgh Agreement" applies past the 2014 Referendum? As far as I am aware it simply applies to the fact that both governments agreed that the referendum should have a clear legal base, that it should be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament and be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, government and people delivering a result which is a fair test and decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect.

So care to tell me where in all of that it says that the 2014 vote, if it is NO, kills the aspirations of the likes of my soon to be born great grandchild......as in being the next generation...and able in a max of 18 years in the future, to choose for him/herself how he/she will be governed? Terms and conditions are written down or mean nothing...and, to my knowledge, there has been no delineated entry in the agreement, far less time scale as to...."we have allowed this vote to shut you up because we expect to win....and you ain't going to be allowed to bring it up again for a few decades to irritate the UK again". Do you know different? If so, kindly provide a link.

I will if you can provide a link that confirms that your soon to be born grandchild will have the same silly aspirations as yourself.

ducati
06-Nov-12, 00:29
Was watching the big debate on BBC2 with an audience of 16 and 17 year olds. Interesting questions around immigration that I wasn't very interested in but then one chap asked because the UK benefits system was being dismantled how are we going to stop people from England and Wales and Northern Ireland comming in and sponging off Scotlands superior one? :lol:

Kenn
06-Nov-12, 12:23
I too watched the programme ducati and another point that was raised was about free university tuition the answers were less than clear.