View Full Version : Independence Issue - Currency
weezer 316
12-Oct-12, 13:30
Right seeing as its seemingly impossible to have any sort of rational debate on independence lets try and stick to one topic at a time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9602126/Scottish-independence-Why-would-Scotland-turn-itself-into-Greece.html
Very ineresting article laying out the currency situation much clearer then I have read it previously.
Comments please.
Let's have your opinion first Weeze on why you think it's an interesting article.
I cant take anything seriously which is written about Scotland in the Telegraph ........ and certainly not an article written by anyone called Jeremy!
C3.
weezer 316
12-Oct-12, 14:20
Why on earth does it matter who writes it or where? Surely it should be judged on its merits. It is addressing a VERY pertinent point after all...
Anyway.
1: Monetary union without Fiscal or even political was one of the key issues behind the Eurozone problems. Its also one of the key reasons they cant fix it.
2: It undermines who entire idea of independence when you arent even in control or even have any say at all in the monetary policy used alongsie that currency.
3: It asks a very good question about capital flight in the face of currency uncertainty, and the ability of the Scottish govt to prvide liquidity to adress any shortfall seeing as they wont have their own curreny they can print on demand.
Now your thoughts please on the merits of the poitns raised and your response to them please. Im not 10. I dont care what hes called, If hes scottish or even what football team he supports is that clear?
How can he, you, me or anyone else have a discussion on the monetary issue when nothing has been decided yet? Everyone who writes on it are only guessing what might happen. Wait and see what the SNP come up with before 2014 before entering into what might happen to Scotlands currency.
C3.
weezer 316
12-Oct-12, 15:40
Classic response.
We can have a discussion....because we must have a discussion. This cant be left untill the vote. Its must be laid out now. You cant just ruffle up a monetary policy in a few months.
Let me ask you, given what it says, assuming you even bothered reading it, what woudld you preferred course of action be regarding the currency, and why?
And I remind you again, Im not 10. I dont care who he is, where they live or anything about them, we are talking about the issues here.
Ok Weeze, I am never one to duck and issue.
My own preference would be that we have our own currency, if we are brave enough to vote for Independence then we must be brave enough to go the whole hog and have our own money.
And yes, I did read it and now you are going to rip me to bits for choosing to go for our own currency aren't you?..lol...(mind you, whatever I would have chosen you would still rip me to bits)!!..lol
C3.
Before we have a referendum on Scottish Independence, I think there has to be a clear road map set out for the referendum with respect to EU membership for Scotland in the event of a Yes vote. That way we have a clear view of what is going to happen. I'm not happy at all with all these ifs and buts and smoke and mirrors that have to continually have to put up with from the SNP. They tell us absolutely nothing and when they are in the business of Statecraft for Scotland then they should be upfront and clear as to what is going to happen. It is only fair. Alex Salmond seems to say he wants EU membership and he says that Scotland will automatically qualify, which is in doubt. Then on the next breath, he seems to want to model Scotland on Norway's relationship within Europe because of all the oil. He wants to have it both ways.
Then there is his duality with currency, does he want the Euro or the pound?
John Little
12-Oct-12, 16:22
Let's have your opinion first Weeze on why you think it's an interesting article.I cant take anything seriously which is written about Scotland in the Telegraph ........ and certainly not an article written by anyone called Jeremy!C3.
Rational Weezie?
You have the above on this thread and 'union overlords' on another.
Is there any point?
rob murray
12-Oct-12, 16:30
I have recently seen draft designed bank notes which are to be used in an independant Scotland : the word sterling has been dropped form the note and replaced with dollop of porridge : ie a fiver reads, I promise to pay the bearer of this note 5 dollops of cold porridge
Rational Weezie?
You have the above on this thread and 'union overlords' on another.
Is there any point? No I dont think there is John because peoples minds are already made up and whatever is "discussed" on here is hardly likely to sway anybody one way or the other! And I think Jeremy makes his feelings towards Scots very well in his article!
C3.
No I dont think there is John because peoples minds are already made up and whatever is "discussed" on here is hardly likely to sway anybody one way or the other! And I think Jeremy makes his feelings towards Scots very well in his article!
C3.
Why would anyone want to sway anybody else on the topic of Scottish Independence? Are you using this forum as a political stage?
Why would anyone want to sway anybody else on the topic of Scottish Independence?
So what have all these numerous debates been about on here then Rheg? Why is there a lot of folk telling me I am wrong for wanting to vote Yes? Are you telling me that they dont want me to vote No? Of course they would be happy if me and a few other thousand were persuaded to vote no.
Wait and see what the SNP come up with before 2014 before entering into what might happen to Scotlands currency.
One might have thought a political party that had been gunning for independance for 40 odd years wouldn't have to wait until the last minute to decide on what might, singly, be the most important economic decision in our history.
So what have all these numerous debates been about on here then Rheg? Why is there a lot of folk telling me I am wrong for wanting to vote Yes? Are you telling me that they dont want me to vote No? Of course they would be happy if me and a few other thousand were persuaded to vote no.
I couldn't care less if you voted Yes or No. What really annoys me is that if the SNP put enough of their effort into real issues that affect real people like education, health, public order and the economy etc instead of fringe constitutional issues then perhaps they could make a difference. But I'm not seeing it.
John Little
12-Oct-12, 19:44
So what have all these numerous debates been about on here then Rheg? Why is there a lot of folk telling me I am wrong for wanting to vote Yes? Are you telling me that they dont want me to vote No? Of course they would be happy if me and a few other thousand were persuaded to vote no.
Reggie - if you don't mind my two pennorth I'd like to answer that.
I of course do not have a vote in this, but I don't want to go over all that again. About a year ago my position on Independence for Scotland was don't know - it was up to the people of Scotland. You can easily check that out if you wish. I even had a thread on it asking what people thought, and when that thread was finished I was, if anything, in favour of Independence and said that if I were in Scotland I would probably vote SNP.
But time moves on don't it? Having got interested I looked more, thought more and eventually saw the light.
The basic message to the residents of Scotland is - 'What we have is not working. So why don't we swap it for this lovely wee pig in a poke?' Until the SNP get a bit more detailed, then what they are offering is exactly that.But my understanding is that they do not feel the need to open the poke.
The reason C3 why so many people are telling you this is that you have not changed your position at all. And whatever is said, then your mind is not going to shift - and that goes for a few others on here too.
On the other hand there is a number of people who really are looking at it and might change their mind - one way or another.
As I did.
But then there's them who won't because there are concrete blocks in place.
One appears to have such a pathological hatred of the United Kingdom that there is nothing good to be said for it.
'Debate' there is useless.
I only know one Jeremy. He lives in Wales, votes Green and plays the guitar a lot. He'd sooner jump off a cliff than read the Torygraph - but sometimes it can have some very good articles. Depends who's writing them.
PS. Jeremy's article actually makes a lot of sense. You might read it.
piratelassie
12-Oct-12, 20:42
Surely the only way a future Scottish Gov. of any colour can devote 100% effort to education, health etc, is when it controls 100% of its finances. That seems pretty obvious does it not?
I couldn't care less if you voted Yes or No. What really annoys me is that if the SNP put enough of their effort into real issues that affect real people like education, health, public order and the economy etc instead of fringe constitutional issues then perhaps they could make a difference. But I'm not seeing it.
I'm back in London for a while. It's my second home but it feels like my first. I have a purse full of RBS notes that I shall enjoy spending in the capital city of my country. Harvey Nicks beware. ;)
Surely the only way a future Scottish Gov. of any colour can devote 100% effort to education, health etc, is when it controls 100% of its finances. That seems pretty obvious does it not?
That is always too easy to say but the Scottish Government already has full control of finances in respect to Education, Health and Public order etc.
What we need in Scotland is not a government of any colour, but a pale blue one with a leader on a broomstick. Who would vote for me? :D
weezer 316
13-Oct-12, 14:03
For a guy that makes his living in IT you wouldn't not believe how much trouble I have with computers haha!
Lets try and stick to the topic shall we.
Corrie, you are right, its not independence if they dont have their own currency. Now the issues relating to the setting up of it are monstorous (I personally would shift all cash I have into England if possible). Now wold you be prepared to risk a wipeout for independence?
I personally think upon independence we should try and join the Euro. That brings its own set of issues outlined earlier.
piratelassie
15-Oct-12, 00:44
I repeat, without FULL control of our own RESORCES then any decisions taken in Edinburgh must be limited.
weezer 316
15-Oct-12, 12:45
How so? The scottish govt has full control over the education budget and its targets. Can you explain how independence would give it any more power?
We should keep the pound for now. We should not be joining the euro just now but we would not have to make a decision about this for at least three years from joining the EU and maybe not even then - I think it is Bulgaria who are due to join the euro and have said they are not doing. At the point we need to make a decision about the euro we could then choose to have our own currency if that is what is best for Scotland.
We should keep the pound for now. We should not be joining the euro just now but we would not have to make a decision about this for at least three years from joining the EU and maybe not even then - I think it is Bulgaria who are due to join the euro and have said they are not doing. At the point we need to make a decision about the euro we could then choose to have our own currency if that is what is best for Scotland.
Will we definitely be allowed to?
We've seen the near disaster dodgy governments have caused by overspending in the Euro. Maybe the British government won't let us use their currency to protect the pound against that happening?
How so? The scottish govt has full control over the education budget and its targets. Can you explain how independence would give it any more power?
It's not the power, as you well know....it is the fact that with a limited income, choices have to be made. Just as they will on Independence, but with more money available to use, and no dictat from Westminster as to what we have to spend it on, more/different things can be accomplished.
For example, if we had access to all our resources, we'd possibly not have had to centralise so much to save money by removing duplicated jobs.
Will we definitely be allowed to?
We've seen the near disaster dodgy governments have caused by overspending in the Euro. Maybe the British government won't let us use their currency to protect the pound against that happening?
The rUK Government can't actually stop us using sterling. They can stop us using it formally, as that would take a bilateral agreement, but they can't stop us adopting it unilaterally.
weezer 316
15-Oct-12, 17:38
Your right, but they can as good as stop us using it. If your position is use it regardless of what the BoE says then your nuts and probably haven't the faintest idea of what issues that would cause.
So lets see, big question. Which would you prefer to do? Corrie already answered, what about squidge and funny-numbers-quine?
We should keep the pound for now. We should not be joining the euro just now but we would not have to make a decision about this for at least three years from joining the EU and maybe not even then - I think it is Bulgaria who are due to join the euro and have said they are not doing. At the point we need to make a decision about the euro we could then choose to have our own currency if that is what is best for Scotland.
Some experts would say this two tiered attitude to the EU is counter productive for small nations.
what about squidge
And again..... I think We should keep the pound for now. We should not be joining the euro just now but we would not have to make a decision about this for at least three years from joining the EU and maybe not even then - I think it is Bulgaria who are due to join the euro and have said they are not doing. At the point we need to make a decision about the euro we could then choose to have our own currency if that is what is best for Scotland.
Nicola Sturgeon admitted that in an independent Scotland we will keep the £ and The Bank of England will set the interest rates for Scotland. :eek:
Will the € still exist in 2 years time? With the recent statements from The EU it looks like Scotland will have a real problem joining it if it does.
Your right, but they can as good as stop us using it. If your position is use it regardless of what the BoE says then your nuts and probably haven't the faintest idea of what issues that would cause.
So lets see, big question. Which would you prefer to do? Corrie already answered, what about squidge and funny-numbers-quine?
What does it matter what currency we use until we make up our mind as to the best way forward? There is no necessity, even if it were at all feasible, to have a Central Bank etc up and running before even the negotiations with the rUK are finished.
If we have the facility to adjust our fiscal policies to compensate for the rUK monetary policies, then just what is the problem...........or do you really think the rUK would trash the rUK economy (and those of the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, and the half of the British Overseas Territories who still use or are pegged to sterling) simply in order to teach Scotland a lesson?
We already have our own currency, the pound Scots, which is currently part of the UK monetary Union, and can continue to be an informal part of that as long as it works for us...... but I'd personally like to see us with our own Central Bank at some stage...but I don't feel there is any desperate mad rush about it, though it is something to be considered for for the medium term at least, if not before.
tonkatojo
16-Oct-12, 11:30
Will the € still exist in 2 years time? With the recent statements from The EU it looks like Scotland will have a real problem joining it if it does.
Why do you think Sturgeon is hedging her bets and wants Stirling (for Now). My personal thoughts are in/out means totally in/out and out means the whole hog not picking and choosing including defence/health/currency/tv/what side the road you drive, the whole caboodle , how many instances can you keep your cake and eat it are there.
Nicola Sturgeon admitted that in an independent Scotland we will keep the £ and The Bank of England will set the interest rates for Scotland. :eek:
And did she say forever?
weezer 316
16-Oct-12, 12:37
What does it matter what currency we use until we make up our mind as to the best way forward? There is no necessity, even if it were at all feasible, to have a Central Bank etc up and running before even the negotiations with the rUK are finished.
If we have the facility to adjust our fiscal policies to compensate for the rUK monetary policies, then just what is the problem...........or do you really think the rUK would trash the rUK economy (and those of the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, and the half of the British Overseas Territories who still use or are pegged to sterling) simply in order to teach Scotland a lesson?
We already have our own currency, the pound Scots, which is currently part of the UK monetary Union, and can continue to be an informal part of that as long as it works for us...... but I'd personally like to see us with our own Central Bank at some stage...but I don't feel there is any desperate mad rush about it, though it is something to be considered for for the medium term at least, if not before.
What does it matter what currency we use?!?!?!
How many times do you need to be told, these are EXTREMELEY pertinent questions you dont seem to grasp the importance of. I want a plan of what we are going to do, how we are going to do it and what the impact will be. So do most as I dont vote on blind faith. Every business, home and foreign, wants, infact NEEDS an answer.
Now enough flim flam nonsense out of you and deal with the question at hand. Regardless of how much you dont know or care it matters it does, it really does.
And did she say forever?
no but she never said for how long either.
What does it matter what currency we use?!?!?!
How many times do you need to be told, these are EXTREMELEY pertinent questions you dont seem to grasp the importance of. I want a plan of what we are going to do, how we are going to do it and what the impact will be. So do most as I dont vote on blind faith. Every business, home and foreign, wants, infact NEEDS an answer.
Now enough flim flam nonsense out of you and deal with the question at hand. Regardless of how much you dont know or care it matters it does, it really does.
But you have been told what we are going to do.....we are sticking with sterling until we decide otherwise. After all, Ireland did it from independence until it joined the ERM in 1978.
no but never said for how long either.
That would be because it will depend on how it all works out, doesn't it! Could be forever (or at least my lifetime, which will be forever as far as I'm concerned)) if it works for us.
Does using another country's currency really mean that your country isn't independent as some try to insinuate? If so, that would make all those countries who are in informal currency unions and sit in the UN there under false pretences, then.
weezer 316
16-Oct-12, 21:44
No, it doesnt. What it does require is an explanation as to exactly how it benrfits us, as an independent country, to have our monetary policy decided in a foreign country when the priniciapal argument for independence is that we are in control of our own destiny for gods sake!!
How can we be ANY better off at all when decisions are taken without regard to our needs, yet at the moment our needs are taken into consideration?
Do you understand the point that's being made here because I dont think you do? Does what I just wrote make sense?
secrets in symmetry
16-Oct-12, 23:58
Weezy, by her own admission she's been a follower of this nonsense for 50 years. There's no point in trying to reason with her - her posts suggest that she doesn't have the talent to see past mere numbers. She's a typical banker in that respect, and the more she posts the clearer this becomes.
weezer 316
17-Oct-12, 19:27
Bump......Still waitning on an answer. Any kind of answer!
secrets in symmetry
18-Oct-12, 00:42
Weezy, you and I both know it won't be worth waiting for because secessionists just don't understand. If they did understand, they wouldn't be secessionists - unless they're thick....
Bump......Still waitning on an answer. Any kind of answer!
Which part of I nobody is obliged to dance to your tune do you not quite understand? What is it with Unionists that they think all they have to say is jump and everybody will respond "how high do you want that jump to be"?
I, for one, will respond when I get round to it...because I don't spend my life on here waiting for someone to respond to my posts...which it rather appears others do. I have a life (such as it is) which is not predicated on responding to people who ask the same questions, or make the same pointless remarks, in different words ad nauseam..and never read the responses as a whole.
If I'm going to waste my time responding to those who have already made up their minds, I'll do it in my own good time..and not because you stamp your feet and pout!
Actually Weezer I have got a bit lost with what the question is..... if it is what currency would you prefer to be used in an Independent Scotland then I think you have had it answered by all those who might respond - including oddquine
If it is What is the point of Independence when we continue in a currency union then I think that has been answered too but Ill spell it out for you.
We can still be independent with a currency union because we will have the ability to vary tax policy which we dont have now, we would have the ability to decide on borrowing for Scotland which we dont have now. We would have the ability to spend the money raised in Scotland on Scottish Prioirites which we dont have now.
weezer 316
18-Oct-12, 10:39
Thanks for answering squidge but thats not really what I am getting at.
What I a trying to say is how can nationalists reconcile the very glaring problem of currency union with the current notion that independence would be best as at the moment Scotlands needs, although in monetary terms integrated with the UK and therfore looked after by default, are overlooked by London in some cases, with the stark reality of our monetary policy being decided by a foreign govt without a care for what essentially is an economy the sixe of yorkshires?
You at least have made a stab at answering. I think you are confusing the ability to raise and set taxes with monetary policy, which if independence is achieved could quite easily lead to a disastrous situation where the BOE decideded to pump £100bn into the economy of England and wales and slash interest rates, at a time when Scottish inflation is high. This would utterly cripple us and no amount of taxes would help. We would literally have to go pleading cap in hadn to someone for a bailout.
The opposite of also possible. We might need a liquidity injection but England does not. What then? England wins of course and the SNP have egg on their faces and possibly blood on their hands.
Does that make sense? Its not an issue at present as our economies are aligned and intergrated. But they would diverge after independence and this situation scares me to death becuase I dot have much capital to be wiped out and its all in bricks and mortar!
Thanks for answering squidge but thats not really what I am getting at.
What I a trying to say is how can nationalists reconcile the very glaring problem of currency union with the current notion that independence would be best as at the moment Scotlands needs, although in monetary terms integrated with the UK and therfore looked after by default, are overlooked by London in some cases, with the stark reality of our monetary policy being decided by a foreign govt without a care for what essentially is an economy the sixe of yorkshires?
You at least have made a stab at answering. I think you are confusing the ability to raise and set taxes with monetary policy, which if independence is achieved could quite easily lead to a disastrous situation where the BOE decideded to pump £100bn into the economy of England and wales and slash interest rates, at a time when Scottish inflation is high. This would utterly cripple us and no amount of taxes would help. We would literally have to go pleading cap in hadn to someone for a bailout.
The opposite of also possible. We might need a liquidity injection but England does not. What then? England wins of course and the SNP have egg on their faces and possibly blood on their hands.
Does that make sense? Its not an issue at present as our economies are aligned and intergrated. But they would diverge after independence and this situation scares me to death becuase I dot have much capital to be wiped out and its all in bricks and mortar!
Out of interest, can you cite me any economic decision made by the UK Government which has taken any notice of Scotland and its needs above the UK need for taxes to pay its debts? Honestly? The fact that you can say, and appear to believe, that Scotland essentially is an economy the sixe of yorkshires, simply illustrates the Unionist mindset in which Scotland is the UK "region" of "North Britain".... and also that you know sod all about the economy of Yorkshire and the Humber......or of that of Scotland.
Excuse me for being stupid....but would £100 billion of additional QE and a reduction in interest rates by the BOE not imply that the rUK itself was still performing very, very badly,..and would it not, for your scenario, be somewhat necessary to quantify the level of inflation in an independent Scotland. After all, the BOE has inflation limits built in, so it would appear that there is an acceptable level of inflation, would it not? Ergo, what in your opinion would be termed a high level of inflation....given that the UK has consistently exceeded its 2% target since QE reared its ugly head introduction, getting up to more than 5% on occasion (in fact, back in 1991 it reached 8.5% for a time)? One sure fire way of reducing the real incomes of pensioners, small savers and those on fixed incomes is the inflation which is introduced by printing money, throwing it into circulation willy nilly and accomplishing none of the intended benefits from that increase in the money supply.
When you say have to go pleading cap in hadn to someone for a bailout....do you mean as the UK had to go to the IMF in the 1970s? Why would Scotland have any more egg on its face than the UK did then....and, frankly, why should that worry us anyway? And from which stunted part of your brain have you produced blood on their hands? Have you been absorbing the irrational tones of the UK politicians and media, which appears to think that if they think it, it will be so, however ridiculous the statement may be? Btw, by England I assume you really mean the rUK.?
Sorry, weezer..but I don't really see what you are getting at, either. You are talking as if the use of sterling after independence is no different to our use of sterling under the Union...as in there is sweet Fanny Adams we can do to ameliorate the effects of UK monetary policy on Scotland, bar play about in the limited areas in which we are allowed to play. If the rUK monetary policy appeared to be likely to seriously confer real damage to the Scottish economy ..then we would simply come out of sterling. I would trust that any sensible Scottish Government after Independence would be far-sighted enough to prepare for the worst case scenario, instead of simply crossing their fingers and hoping for the best, so that they have the ability to respond quickly if necessary....which is why I think they should be planning for our own central bank from early doors, even if there is no need to implement it in the short/medium term.
We now live in a Global economy, so what currency a country uses is not that important in the great scheme of things, provided it gives the country the stability it needs. Currency unions at any level can often be useful in simplifying trade between neighbouring nations, which is usually why they happen, but certainly if the chosen currency itself gets into trouble on the foreign exchange markets, that would be the downside of it. But then, that would also be the downside of continuing in the Union, wouldn't it....and within the Union there would be no option to adjust our policies in an effort to compensate for the decisions made in the UK context which were not useful in a Scottish context.........or to remove ourselves from the sterling zone altogether.
weezer 316
18-Oct-12, 19:39
Out of interest, can you cite me any economic decision made by the UK Government which has taken any notice of Scotland and its needs above the UK need for taxes to pay its debts? Honestly? The fact that you can say, and appear to believe, that Scotland essentially is an economy the sixe of yorkshires, simply illustrates the Unionist mindset in which Scotland is the UK "region" of "North Britain".... and also that you know sod all about the economy of Yorkshire and the Humber......or of that of Scotland.
Excuse me for being stupid....but would £100 billion of additional QE and a reduction in interest rates by the BOE not imply that the rUK itself was still performing very, very badly,..and would it not, for your scenario, be somewhat necessary to quantify the level of inflation in an independent Scotland. After all, the BOE has inflation limits built in, so it would appear that there is an acceptable level of inflation, would it not? Ergo, what in your opinion would be termed a high level of inflation....given that the UK has consistently exceeded its 2% target since QE reared its ugly head introduction, getting up to more than 5% on occasion (in fact, back in 1991 it reached 8.5% for a time)? One sure fire way of reducing the real incomes of pensioners, small savers and those on fixed incomes is the inflation which is introduced by printing money, throwing it into circulation willy nilly and accomplishing none of the intended benefits from that increase in the money supply.
When you say have to go pleading cap in hadn to someone for a bailout....do you mean as the UK had to go to the IMF in the 1970s? Why would Scotland have any more egg on its face than the UK did then....and, frankly, why should that worry us anyway? And from which stunted part of your brain have you produced blood on their hands? Have you been absorbing the irrational tones of the UK politicians and media, which appears to think that if they think it, it will be so, however ridiculous the statement may be? Btw, by England I assume you really mean the rUK.?
Sorry, weezer..but I don't really see what you are getting at, either. You are talking as if the use of sterling after independence is no different to our use of sterling under the Union...as in there is sweet Fanny Adams we can do to ameliorate the effects of UK monetary policy on Scotland, bar play about in the limited areas in which we are allowed to play. If the rUK monetary policy appeared to be likely to seriously confer real damage to the Scottish economy ..then we would simply come out of sterling. I would trust that any sensible Scottish Government after Independence would be far-sighted enough to prepare for the worst case scenario, instead of simply crossing their fingers and hoping for the best, so that they have the ability to respond quickly if necessary....which is why I think they should be planning for our own central bank from early doors, even if there is no need to implement it in the short/medium term.
We now live in a Global economy, so what currency a country uses is not that important in the great scheme of things, provided it gives the country the stability it needs. Currency unions at any level can often be useful in simplifying trade between neighbouring nations, which is usually why they happen, but certainly if the chosen currency itself gets into trouble on the foreign exchange markets, that would be the downside of it. But then, that would also be the downside of continuing in the Union, wouldn't it....and within the Union there would be no option to adjust our policies in an effort to compensate for the decisions made in the UK context which were not useful in a Scottish context.........or to remove ourselves from the sterling zone altogether.
You argue points like I did when I was 6. Its extraordinary.
What does it matter what the Uk did in the 1970's? How about you answer the question I asked, which is how a small change in a large ecomony can cripple a smaller one dependent on it.
What does it matter how the economy of England and Wales compared to scotland post independence? We are talking about the EFFECT of a foreign central bank making montary decisions that effect us oblivious to our needs!! Jesus! How childish are you! Its the equivalent of arguing "It doesnt matter I stole his bike, he stole 2 bikes" as a vindication of your actions!
then this gem....."Why would Scotland have any more egg on its face than the UK did then....and, frankly, why should that worry us anyway" ...my head is literally in my hands. I cant even type whats wrong with that statement.
Can someone else explain this to her please because I have failed. I have tried and I have failed.
Can someone else explain this to her please because I have failed. I have tried and I have failed.
At least you tried, seems like an irrational obsession to me. Actually she is doing a fine job of putting people off voting Yes.
You argue points like I did when I was 6. Its extraordinary.
What does it matter what the Uk did in the 1970's? How about you answer the question I asked, which is how a small change in a large ecomony can cripple a smaller one dependent on it.
What does it matter how the economy of England and Wales compared to scotland post independence? We are talking about the EFFECT of a foreign central bank making montary decisions that effect us oblivious to our needs!! Jesus! How childish are you! Its the equivalent of arguing "It doesnt matter I stole his bike, he stole 2 bikes" as a vindication of your actions!
then this gem....."Why would Scotland have any more egg on its face than the UK did then....and, frankly, why should that worry us anyway" ...my head is literally in my hands. I cant even type whats wrong with that statement.
Can someone else explain this to her please because I have failed. I have tried and I have failed.
You were obviously a lot more intelligent when you were six,than you are now, then. :roll:
Logically, if it doesn't matter what the UK did in the 1970s in economic terms, because that is historical and extremely unimportant..then why do Unionists appear to think it is important what the UK has accomplished in the years since the Union and use that to claim that Scotland absolutely has to remain in the Union because of that shared history?
Failing anything more compelling as a "positive" case for the Union, they currently fall back on citing history, and using the fact that over the piece the UK has done well in the world, and pretending Scotland as an entity has any actual compelling voice in that (which it does not....because if it did, the EU would not have been handed our Fishing Waters by Ted Heath).
The whole "positive" case for the Union to date appears to have been the Jubilee, the Royal Wedding and the Olympics....and to typify exactly what a UK Government is all about we will be getting a year long jamboree celebration of the START of the Great War in 2014 (note that.....the start of the 1914-1918 killing fields) and commemorations (celebrations?) of each battle as it turns up in the calendar.....as if any single one of the millions of deaths were a reason for celebration, when the average sensible non-jingoistic individual would be thinking that we should have planning to celebrate the end of the war and the killing, as we do every Armistice Sunday!
You have certainly failed to make any points which engender discussion.....but that would be because you haven't tried to discuss anything said in response, even where specific information or examples are given, preferring to cherry pick remarks which are personal opinion and going the ad hominem route.
Trying is more than repeating much the same question slightly differently in post after post, and in thread after thread, and expecting a different answer to the ones you get (fairly consistently, I might add) or dreaming up worst case (or delusional) scenarios and assuming those reading them will bow down to your superior ability to use your imagination and will be obliged to respond to those imaginings as if they were fact.
Trying would indicate the odd fact and less off the top of your head imagination. Given the pro-independence supporters on here are eternally being told that what we say is wishful thinking, irrational, biased uncertain etc...then trying would be NOT doing yourself what you, and other Unionists, accuse us of doing every time we put finger to keyboard.
But to be completely fair..you are very trying! :roll:
secrets in symmetry
19-Oct-12, 22:32
At least you tried, seems like an irrational obsession to me. Actually she is doing a fine job of putting people off voting Yes.Yes, her posts are becoming ever more inane, childish, and ignorant. I suppose that's what happens when you believe in nonsense for half a century. Political and economic insanity can go unnoticed in small rural communities. Sadly, professional help isn't always at hand.
Mystical Potato Head
20-Oct-12, 09:26
Yes, her posts are becoming ever more inane, childish, and ignorant. I suppose that's what happens when you believe in nonsense for half a century. Political and economic insanity can go unnoticed in small rural communities. Sadly, professional help isn't always at hand.
Inane,childish and ignorant? Is that similar to this bit of inane,childish name calling typed by your digits? How mature
and scientific of you.
" Fat Ugly Eck's Skittish Mendacious Party trains people to lie about Secession but they usually don't convince anyone with an above average IQ."
secrets in symmetry
21-Oct-12, 16:22
I hear a rumour that The Ugly One plans to link the Ecko (his favoured new currency) to the Rial. He believes the Ecko will be stable against another oil producer's currency.
The cover of the Scottish passport will be yellow with some black bits.
I hear a rumour that The Ugly One plans to link the Ecko (his favoured new currency) to the Rial. He believes the Ecko will be stable against another oil producer's currency.
The cover of the Scottish passport will be yellow with some black bits.
for a really smart person your posts are completely inane on many occasions - there are many of us who would love to hear you offer your coherent and considered real opininon on this subject preceisely because you can be informed and intelligent but you just dont bother and its a shame.
for a really smart person your posts are completely inane on many occasions - there are many of us who would love to hear you offer your coherent and considered real opininon on this subject preceisely because you can be informed and intelligent but you just dont bother and its a shame.
The individual is a troll.....which is defined as, among other things...all of which could apply to the most his/her posts....One who intentionally posts on an internet forum to gain attention rather than contribute actual content.
weezer 316
23-Oct-12, 17:09
You were obviously a lot more intelligent when you were six,than you are now, then. :roll:
Logically, if it doesn't matter what the UK did in the 1970s in economic terms, because that is historical and extremely unimportant..then why do Unionists appear to think it is important what the UK has accomplished in the years since the Union and use that to claim that Scotland absolutely has to remain in the Union because of that shared history?
Failing anything more compelling as a "positive" case for the Union, they currently fall back on citing history, and using the fact that over the piece the UK has done well in the world, and pretending Scotland as an entity has any actual compelling voice in that (which it does not....because if it did, the EU would not have been handed our Fishing Waters by Ted Heath).
The whole "positive" case for the Union to date appears to have been the Jubilee, the Royal Wedding and the Olympics....and to typify exactly what a UK Government is all about we will be getting a year long jamboree celebration of the START of the Great War in 2014 (note that.....the start of the 1914-1918 killing fields) and commemorations (celebrations?) of each battle as it turns up in the calendar.....as if any single one of the millions of deaths were a reason for celebration, when the average sensible non-jingoistic individual would be thinking that we should have planning to celebrate the end of the war and the killing, as we do every Armistice Sunday!
You have certainly failed to make any points which engender discussion.....but that would be because you haven't tried to discuss anything said in response, even where specific information or examples are given, preferring to cherry pick remarks which are personal opinion and going the ad hominem route.
Trying is more than repeating much the same question slightly differently in post after post, and in thread after thread, and expecting a different answer to the ones you get (fairly consistently, I might add) or dreaming up worst case (or delusional) scenarios and assuming those reading them will bow down to your superior ability to use your imagination and will be obliged to respond to those imaginings as if they were fact.
Trying would indicate the odd fact and less off the top of your head imagination. Given the pro-independence supporters on here are eternally being told that what we say is wishful thinking, irrational, biased uncertain etc...then trying would be NOT doing yourself what you, and other Unionists, accuse us of doing every time we put finger to keyboard.
But to be completely fair..you are very trying! :roll:
What!?!?!
I strongly suggest you look up points of view. There is no absolute HAS to do anything. Its based on an assessment of the situation and acts available (I notice eck has just admitted lying about EU membership but thats another arguement) and what in the interests of the wider community.
Compare this with the nationalist case, which is by its very name based on an appeal to tribalism, and any thinking could be forgiven for thinking somone on the SNP side has been claiming to know things they dont know.....
And before I get a reponse about the UK govt claiming to know things they dont know.....dont bother.
Although you will.....
And that will likely fly right over your head!
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