A more convincing view on Independence from the Scottish Green Party

[Rheghead]

I'm turned off by the SNP's irrational obsession with Scottish Independence, I just don't get it. Partly or mainly because they have a clever little answer for everything that is critical of it. They are nationalists afterall.

However, the Scottish Green Party are joining the Yes Campaign on a consensual basis by the fact that most of their members are in favour. The party leadership will not not stamp their foot at any of their members who disagree with Scottish independence, they are letting their members to campaign as they wish.

They are in favour of localism over nationalism and they think that bringing more powers to Edinburgh will encourage even more localism. That remains to be seen only after SI is achieved though.

It seems the Greens are prepared to admit that SI is not the cure-all solution for Scottish problems, they will interact sensibly on the strengths and shortcomings of it.

http://blogs.theglaswegian.co.uk/glasgowpolitics/2012/10/patrick-harvie-independence-route-to-empowering-the-people.html

[RecQuery]

I'm turned off by the SNP's irrational obsession with Scottish Independence, I just don't get it. Partly or mainly because they have a clever little answer for everything that is critical of it.

You don't like answers or intelligence? You actually dislike an organisation and it's members for providing well thought out answers.

[secrets in symmetry]

I'm turned off by the SNP's irrational obsession with Scottish Independence, I just don't get it. Partly or mainly because they have a clever little answer for everything that is critical of it. They are nationalists afterall.Aye, where "clever" = blatant lie or inane nonsense based on their ignorance of just about everything! Is everyone in the SNP stupid and/or gullible?

[Oddquine]

I'm turned off by the SNP's irrational obsession with Scottish Independence, I just don't get it. Partly or mainly because they have a clever little answer for everything that is critical of it. They are nationalists afterall.

However, the Scottish Green Party are joining the Yes Campaign on a consensual basis by the fact that most of their members are in favour. The party leadership will not not stamp their foot at any of their members who disagree with Scottish independence, they are letting their members to campaign as they wish.

They are in favour of localism over nationalism and they think that bringing more powers to Edinburgh will encourage even more localism. That remains to be seen only after SI is achieved though.

It seems the Greens are prepared to admit that SI is not the cure-all solution for Scottish problems, they will interact sensibly on the strengths and shortcomings of it.

http://blogs.theglaswegian.co.uk/glasgowpolitics/2012/10/patrick-harvie-independence-route-to-empowering-the-people.html

Would the irrational obsession of the Scottish Nationalists be on the same lines as the irrational obsession of the Unionists for maintaining the Union? I note you comment about they [the nationalists..only around 20,000 of which are SNP, as in party members, btw] have a clever little answer for everything that is critical of it. Clever does not necessarily equate to wrong...and is not an insult, unless you are not clever enough to understand the answer.To date the Unionists have no clever answers for anything...scaremongering, erroneous, even deliberately misleading sound bites and statistics are certainly not clever.

Where does localism begin but at the level of the country in which you live, and from that starting point is extrapolated down to communities within it? The longest journey starts from the first step and the first step in the journey to the Green's localism, is to make the destiny of our country ours to decide, not the UKs to dictate.....and from there it is up to us.

So I can't see that Patrick Harvie is saying much different to what we independence supporters of all political beliefs and none have been saying all along. I haven't noticed anybody saying that Independence was the cure for all ills...have you?

I agree wholeheartedly with his remark We won't pretend that independence is the solution to every problem, or that it's a disaster waiting to happen. We know the truth is somewhere in between.

And I also agree with this part of his last paragraph If both sides of the referendum campaign can put forward their case about how to change Scotland, not pretending that things can or should stay the same, then whatever decision the people make in 2014 we'll have the chance of making our country a better place to live.

But I hope, like me, Patrick Harvie is not holding his breath waiting for the UK Government to produce their vision of change in Scotland to meet Scottish aspirations, because I'm prepared to bet that the Scotland Act 2012 is all we will get...and that does not cut it as meaningful change, as it is simply a tweak to the current set up.

Edited to add.....I see s-i-s has wandered in to redefine the word clever to suit his/her (trolling) agenda. Now why am i not surprised?

[rob murray]

Would the irrational obsession of the Scottish Nationalists be on the same lines as the irrational obsession of the Unionists for maintaining the Union? I note you comment about they [the nationalists..only around 20,000 of which are SNP, as in party members, btw] have a clever little answer for everything that is critical of it. Clever does not necessarily equate to wrong...and is not an insult, unless you are not clever enough to understand the answer.To date the Unionists have no clever answers for anything...scaremongering, erroneous, even deliberately misleading sound bites and statistics are certainly not clever.

Where does localism begin but at the level of the country in which you live, and from that starting point is extrapolated down to communities within it? The longest journey starts from the first step and the first step in the journey to the Green's localism, is to make the destiny of our country ours to decide, not the UKs to dictate.....and from there it is up to us.

So I can't see that Patrick Harvie is saying much different to what we independence supporters of all political beliefs and none have been saying all along. I haven't noticed anybody saying that Independence was the cure for all ills...have you?

I agree wholeheartedly with his remark We won't pretend that independence is the solution to every problem, or that it's a disaster waiting to happen. We know the truth is somewhere in between.

And I also agree with this part of his last paragraph If both sides of the referendum campaign can put forward their case about how to change Scotland, not pretending that things can or should stay the same, then whatever decision the people make in 2014 we'll have the chance of making our country a better place to live.

But I hope, like me, Patrick Harvie is not holding his breath waiting for the UK Government to produce their vision of change in Scotland to meet Scottish aspirations, because I'm prepared to bet that the Scotland Act 2012 is all we will get...and that does not cut it as meaningful change, as it is simply a tweak to the current set up.

Edited to add.....I see s-i-s has wandered in to redefine the word clever to suit his/her (trolling) agenda. Now why am i not surprised?

Well put, the greens position / statements are very near the mark in a balanced way, I have previously been on this forum expressing a view for devo max, with a much more regionalised focus, rather tha a central belt focus, hearing the Greens view makes me wonder if I want my cake and to eat it at ! I still feel however, if we get seperatism with an SNP majoirty government then we are going to still see central belt domination,..economic /budgetary uplifts to say Highland and Isalnds Enterpirse wont happen...still as proponents of seperatism suggest who to say that the SNP will continue to hold majority !

[Oddquine]

Well put, the greens position / statements are very near the mark in a balanced way, I have previously been on this forum expressing a view for devo max, with a much more regionalised focus, rather tha a central belt focus, hearing the Greens view makes me wonder if I want my cake and to eat it at ! I still feel however, if we get seperatism with an SNP majoirty government then we are going to still see central belt domination,..economic /budgetary uplifts to say Highland and Isalnds Enterpirse wont happen...still as proponents of seperatism suggest who to say that the SNP will continue to hold majority !

If we get Independence and vote for a majority SNP Government in 2016 then that is democracy in action. I certainly won't vote for either the SNP or the Greens in 2016, simply on their windmill proliferation policies...but if a majority do for either, then I'll just have to suck it up. I'd be inclined to think we will end up with a situation more on the lines of the 2007 election, after which consensus was the name of the game..and not necessarily with the SNP as the biggest party. I'd rather see a minority Government building consensus than coalitions which can drive through policies, tbh..look what that has meant for the people of the UK so far. For the same reason I'd like to see an end to whipping votes to drive policies through.

I do hope though that the confrontational "Yah Boo Sucks to you" mentality which epitomises "discussion" in the UK Parliament, and has been adopted into the Scottish Parliament, over this term at least, will disappear if the Scottish MPs are all focused on the best for Scotland and the Scottish people with no need to schmooze their Union overlords as they have an eye on UK advancement.

I think there is a difference between a Central Belt focus and an acknowledgment that the Central Belt contains the vast majority of the Scottish population and has the biggest and worst areas of deprivation, partly due to UK Government and Labour Local Government neglect over the centuries/decades. The trick is to gradually improve their situation, with gradually being the watchword...while still dealing with the needs of other areas. I am hoping that a Scottish Government of whatever political shade is sensible enough to realise that if you can only afford to borrow enough to repay, over the piece, the purchase of a small one bedroom flat and a Lada, and still manage to pay for food heating etc, then it is completely irresponsible to be borrowing to buy a mansion and a Lamborghini.

Regarding the idea that the SNP, if it should become the Government after 2016 would adopt a UK Parliamentary style London-centric model which neglects the peripheries for the main conurbation(s)....I can't see it, myself. I can't see any Scottish Government regardless of party following that policy, if only because there are less Central Belt Parliamentary votes than the total from areas outside the Central Belt.

If you think about it, and if you consider the Central Belt consists of Lothians, Glasgow and Central Scotland, which will have a maximum of 27 FPTP and 21 list MPs and the rest of Scotland..the peripheries...will have 46 FPTP and 35 list MPs, there is at least a chance that if any Scottish Government tries to do favouritism to the obvious disadvantage of areas outside the Central Belt there will be enough votes to say "Not on your nelly"....something not possible in the UK set-up as it applies to Scotland.

[Rheghead]

Would the irrational obsession of the Scottish Nationalists be on the same lines as the irrational obsession of the Unionists for maintaining the Union?

I would dare to add that you are the perfect example of one who has an irrational obsession with SI. It is a matter of public record of your track record on the subject. That is the problem that you have, how can you convince someone of the merits of SI when you are irrationally obsessed by it? You've been presented by umpteen examples of why economics of an independent scotland would mean higher taxes for all of us yet you don't acknowledge it or you simply say that you don't care and that is not your main concern.

[rob murray]

If we get Independence and vote for a majority SNP Government in 2016 then that is democracy in action. I certainly won't vote for either the SNP or the Greens in 2016, simply on their windmill proliferation policies...but if a majority do for either, then I'll just have to suck it up. I'd be inclined to think we will end up with a situation more on the lines of the 2007 election, after which consensus was the name of the game..and not necessarily with the SNP as the biggest party. I'd rather see a minority Government building consensus than coalitions which can drive through policies, tbh..look what that has meant for the people of the UK so far. For the same reason I'd like to see an end to whipping votes to drive policies through.

I do hope though that the confrontational "Yah Boo Sucks to you" mentality which epitomises "discussion" in the UK Parliament, and has been adopted into the Scottish Parliament, over this term at least, will disappear if the Scottish MPs are all focused on the best for Scotland and the Scottish people with no need to schmooze their Union overlords as they have an eye on UK advancement.

I think there is a difference between a Central Belt focus and an acknowledgment that the Central Belt contains the vast majority of the Scottish population and has the biggest and worst areas of deprivation, partly due to UK Government and Labour Local Government neglect over the centuries/decades. The trick is to gradually improve their situation, with gradually being the watchword...while still dealing with the needs of other areas. I am hoping that a Scottish Government of whatever political shade is sensible enough to realise that if you can only afford to borrow enough to repay, over the piece, the purchase of a small one bedroom flat and a Lada, and still manage to pay for food heating etc, then it is completely irresponsible to be borrowing to buy a mansion and a Lamborghini.

Regarding the idea that the SNP, if it should become the Government after 2016 would adopt a UK Parliamentary style London-centric model which neglects the peripheries for the main conurbation(s)....I can't see it, myself. I can't see any Scottish Government regardless of party following that policy, if only because there are less Central Belt Parliamentary votes than the total from areas outside the Central Belt.

If you think about it, and if you consider the Central Belt consists of Lothians, Glasgow and Central Scotland, which will have a maximum of 27 FPTP and 27 list MPs and the rest of Scotland..the peripheries...will have 46 FPTP and 35 list MPs, there is at least a chance that if any Scottish Government tries to do favouritism to the obvious disadvantage of areas outside the Central Belt there will be enough votes to say "Not on your nelly"....something not possible in the UK set-up as it applies to Scotland.

Fine I dont disbelieve the stats, but one thing is for sure, the SNP alone, "re organised" HIE, stripping budgets / cutting services and controlling strategy, all real powers shifted to Scottish Enterprise, Glasgow, ditto Skill Development, whihc was part of HIE's remit now totally controlled, ie budget setting / strategy / allocation of funding ...now based in Glasgow. These matters were widely reported on and challenegd by Inverness based economist, Tony Mackay. I could go on, power has been centralised, and the Highlands and Islands have lost "real" control in key economic / skills issues as only one example of centralisation. Thats the truth of it many other examples exist of centralisation, hence my ultimate preference of devo max with regionalisation. As for ya boo sucks.,...do you listen to First Ministers Quesions on Thursdays as there is no difference from Westminster.