View Full Version : Independance now certainly handed over on a plate
rob murray
01-Oct-12, 12:02
Does anyone else think that "new" Labour announcements challenging the concept and affordability of universal benefits ( free bus passes, prescriptions education etc ), starting with Johan Lamont on Thursday, re endorsed over the week end by Ed, "Mr Bean", Milliband, has handed over the keys to independence to the SNP's...a simple arguement....
1 Who delivered universal non means tested benefits to the Scottish populace...answer the SNP
2 WHo wants this ahem " re evaluated"...almost every other party
3 Which way will people vote...for parties who will take, or for the party who gave ( never mind on going costs )
Game set and match Id say. Well played Alexi and co....and I am chocking as I write this....what were labour playing at ???????
Certainly can't argue with free money.
John Little
01-Oct-12, 12:25
You are not wrong Rob. Bread and circuses is a very powerful argument.
Reminds me of John Smith wanting to raise income tax.
Unless Labour has a radical re-think then the secessionists may very well carry the day.
Luckily, no-one in their right mind listens with any seriousness to Ed M. [lol]
I'm really surprised there aren't factions within the other parties that are supporting if not campaigning for independence or maximum devolution. I notice that even the Guardian is criticising johann lamont and the Labour Party.
http://i.imgur.com/LKeF0.jpg
Luckily, no-one in their right mind listens with any seriousness to Dave and George!!!! [lol]
You are right there Duke, what a pair of Wallies!!
C3.
I find it difficult to actually tell some people on the front benches apart at times. Cameron. Clegg and Miliband especially. They all have similar backgrounds and career progressions with just different colour ties. I'm pretty sure you could randomise the front benches and be hard pressed to tell the difference.
1 Who delivered universal non means tested benefits to the Scottish populace...answer the SNP
Correct
2 WHo wants this ahem " re evaluated"...almost every other party
Plus Me
3 Which way will people vote...for parties who will take, or for the party who gave ( never mind on going costs )
Depends who they give & take from
For example... Is it right that a pensioner on a £600pw pension gets a free bus pass, free TV licence, winter fuel payment... etc... when someone struggling on £65pw JSA doesn't?
. Is it right that a pensioner on a £600pw pension
Let me know how they get that much will you Alrock? I struggle on my £130 pw pension and would love to know how to get £600pw!!!
C3.
Let me know how they get that much will you Alrock? I struggle on my £130 pw pension and would love to know how to get £600pw!!!
C3.
Be a lucky b... that had a very well paid job when retiring with a final salary pension paid by the government.
Wasn't Nicola Sturgeon asked how she reconciled getting free prescriptions when £200,000 was coming into her household?
weezer 316
01-Oct-12, 19:58
Does anyone else think that "new" Labour announcements challenging the concept and affordability of universal benefits ( free bus passes, prescriptions education etc ), starting with Johan Lamont on Thursday, re endorsed over the week end by Ed, "Mr Bean", Milliband, has handed over the keys to independence to the SNP's...a simple arguement....
1 Who delivered universal non means tested benefits to the Scottish populace...answer the SNP
2 WHo wants this ahem " re evaluated"...almost every other party
3 Which way will people vote...for parties who will take, or for the party who gave ( never mind on going costs )
Game set and match Id say. Well played Alexi and co....and I am chocking as I write this....what were labour playing at ???????
1: Who has a £10bn hole in their vague post independence budget that donest have to worry right now about non means tested benefits......The SNP
2: Who has not explained how they will pay for these benefits, or eve what currency they would pay it in.....the SNP
3: Who has to yet to explain what they are going to do about any of this......the SNP
I'm really surprised there aren't factions within the other parties that are supporting if not campaigning for independence or maximum devolution. I notice that even the Guardian is criticising johann lamont and the Labour Party.
http://i.imgur.com/LKeF0.jpg
There is a Labour for an Independent Scotland on the internet, and a Labour Voters for Independence on FaceBook. In fact here are lots of groups ranging from football fans of some teams to women in favour...but unfortunately for Scottish choice at elections after Independence, no LibDem or Tory equivalents (though I may have missed them.)
I have always gone on the principle that you hope for the best but prepare for the worst....which does not appear to be a consideration by UK Political Parties who appear to have decided that Independence is just not going to happen, so are not inclined to do what the SNP, the Greens, the SSP and the SDA are doing....preparing just on the off-chance that Scotland votes yes..
1: Who has a £10bn hole in their vague post independence budget that donest have to worry right now about non means tested benefits......The SNP
2: Who has not explained how they will pay for these benefits, or eve what currency they would pay it in.....the SNP
3: Who has to yet to explain what they are going to do about any of this......the SNP
Why would you expect the SNP to be the government in 2016, that you are so fixated on what they will do and do not worry about what every other political party will do? Out of interest, care to link me to the site you got your figures from? I haven't seen any SNP figures for a post-independence budget..... and I kinda think if they existed, I'd have found them.
1. Who has an ever increasing borrowing requirement and a reducing level of debt repayment..DESPITE having 100 % of the oil/gas revenues and Scottish tax income? Who hasn't balanced a budget in my lifetime? Whose black hole is structural and one helluva sight bigger than 10 billion you quote for Scotland....why..the UK, that's who.
2. I should think, If I were to accept your assumption that the SNP will be the Government of Scotland after Independence, they would pay for them the same way the UK does..by borrowing, or is that too obvious? But having a smaller population, we would need to borrow a lot less. The same people will pay a large proportion of those benefits as pay for them in the UK, mostly the taxpayer on PAYE, without the ability to take advantage of tax avoidance/evasion schemes..but hopefully the richest taxpayers in Scotland will be obliged to start paying their fair share. You shouldn't assume that the way the UK political parties pee our money into the buying votes drain automatically equates to what a Scottish Government will do anyway.Re currency, we will use sterling at least until it is more bother to us than it is worth....and nobody can stop us, however much they throw tantrums. Have you never noticed the intention to stick with sterling being regularly mentioned in the media.....because I have.
3.The SNP don't have to explain anything...what makes you think they have that obligation? Before 2016 and that election, the SNP's vision of how an an independent Scotland will work is no more valid or definitive than mine, or Squidge's or Recquery's....or the opinions of any other pro-independence supporter. The SNP vision is only valid if the SNP are in a position to implement it...and there are no guarantees of that..so there is no requirement to produce a costed manifesto four years ahead..particularly when we don't know our financial situation. We can probably assume that the precedents in International Law, if they exist, will prevail if negotiations break down...but negotiations and a mutually agreed outcome would be by far the best and most sensible option...but we haven't had them yet.
Given the fact that 2014 is only going to be the day of the vote on Independence.....not the day that Scotland will achieve Independence if we do vote for it, the SNP doesn't actually have to do anything about how an Independent Scotland will work..all the SNP have to do, and all they have been elected to do,as the Scottish Government until 2016, is negotiate with the rUK on the division of assets and debts if we vote for Independence. That will more than likely take us up to the election in 2016, if the rUK is going to be a bad loser (and it is currently giving the impression it will be just that). The SNP will only have any say in anything if the negotiating teams get their fingers out and get everything done and dusted before 2016, while they are still the Government..and even then, come 2016 if another party gets elected there may well be change.
Even if your wishes were an obligation on the SNP, there is no way that, before the end of negotiations with the rUK over Independence, they or any other party will be 100% sure of the finances involved in costing a manifesto...so whistling for the moon has more chance of success...have fun trying it!
Wasn't Nicola Sturgeon asked how she reconciled getting free prescriptions when £200,000 was coming into her household?
The same way millionaires in the UK reconcile getting child benefit, bus passes and heating allowances?
What is rUK? I keep seeing it but can't find it on Google.
There is a Labour for an Independent Scotland on the internet, and a Labour Voters for Independence on FaceBook. In fact here are lots of groups ranging from football fans of some teams to women in favour...but unfortunately for Scottish choice at elections after Independence, no LibDem or Tory equivalents (though I may have missed them.)
I have always gone on the principle that you hope for the best but prepare for the worst....which does not appear to be a consideration by UK Political Parties who appear to have decided that Independence is just not going to happen, so are not inclined to do what the SNP, the Greens, the SSP and the SDA are doing....preparing just on the off-chance that Scotland votes yes..
Why waste the time, effort and more importantly Money. The SNP a doing enough of that for everyone...
I hope after the resounding No! vote, the yes voters will be sent the bill because I ain't paying for it. :lol:
Ducati - "rUK" is secessionist flimflam for "The remainder of the UK after Scotland has braveheartedly declared total independence" (apart from Queen, custom and practice, and sterling). Imagine, if you like, a disembodied tail trying to wag a dog. That's it. Impressive, huh?
Doesnt it stand for remaining or remainder Uk or rump UK?
Doesnt it stand for remaining or remainder Uk or rump UK?
I think the Real UK is more apt.
I think the Real UK is more apt. Maybe it does mean that golach....
When I saw rUK I immediately thought of the United Kingdom subreddit - http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/
rob murray
02-Oct-12, 16:45
Correct
Plus Me
Depends who they give & take from
For example... Is it right that a pensioner on a £600pw pension gets a free bus pass, free TV licence, winter fuel payment... etc... when someone struggling on £65pw JSA doesn't?
And would a pensioner on £600 per week vote to stop their goodies ? Where is the majority of active voters...the grey brigade now why would they vote to stop their freebies !!
weezer 316
02-Oct-12, 21:05
Why would you expect the SNP to be the government in 2016, that you are so fixated on what they will do and do not worry about what every other political party will do? Out of interest, care to link me to the site you got your figures from? I haven't seen any SNP figures for a post-independence budget..... and I kinda think if they existed, I'd have found them.
1. Who has an ever increasing borrowing requirement and a reducing level of debt repayment..DESPITE having 100 % of the oil/gas revenues and Scottish tax income? Who hasn't balanced a budget in my lifetime? Whose black hole is structural and one helluva sight bigger than 10 billion you quote for Scotland....why..the UK, that's who.
2. I should think, If I were to accept your assumption that the SNP will be the Government of Scotland after Independence, they would pay for them the same way the UK does..by borrowing, or is that too obvious? But having a smaller population, we would need to borrow a lot less. The same people will pay a large proportion of those benefits as pay for them in the UK, mostly the taxpayer on PAYE, without the ability to take advantage of tax avoidance/evasion schemes..but hopefully the richest taxpayers in Scotland will be obliged to start paying their fair share. You shouldn't assume that the way the UK political parties pee our money into the buying votes drain automatically equates to what a Scottish Government will do anyway.Re currency, we will use sterling at least until it is more bother to us than it is worth....and nobody can stop us, however much they throw tantrums. Have you never noticed the intention to stick with sterling being regularly mentioned in the media.....because I have.
3.The SNP don't have to explain anything...what makes you think they have that obligation? Before 2016 and that election, the SNP's vision of how an an independent Scotland will work is no more valid or definitive than mine, or Squidge's or Recquery's....or the opinions of any other pro-independence supporter. The SNP vision is only valid if the SNP are in a position to implement it...and there are no guarantees of that..so there is no requirement to produce a costed manifesto four years ahead..particularly when we don't know our financial situation. We can probably assume that the precedents in International Law, if they exist, will prevail if negotiations break down...but negotiations and a mutually agreed outcome would be by far the best and most sensible option...but we haven't had them yet.
Given the fact that 2014 is only going to be the day of the vote on Independence.....not the day that Scotland will achieve Independence if we do vote for it, the SNP doesn't actually have to do anything about how an Independent Scotland will work..all the SNP have to do, and all they have been elected to do,as the Scottish Government until 2016, is negotiate with the rUK on the division of assets and debts if we vote for Independence. That will more than likely take us up to the election in 2016, if the rUK is going to be a bad loser (and it is currently giving the impression it will be just that). The SNP will only have any say in anything if the negotiating teams get their fingers out and get everything done and dusted before 2016, while they are still the Government..and even then, come 2016 if another party gets elected there may well be change.
Even if your wishes were an obligation on the SNP, there is no way that, before the end of negotiations with the rUK over Independence, they or any other party will be 100% sure of the finances involved in costing a manifesto...so whistling for the moon has more chance of success...have fun trying it!
In the eternal words of the Sweet virgin Mary.........Come again.
You do know that oil and gas tax accounts for a whopping 1.4% of the Uk governments tax take dont you? if it dissapeared tommorow george could fill the hole with a 1.25% increase in VAT. Its that small. its not going to balance our budget. And its dwindling too.
Sterling. Thast English money. We wouldn't be in charge of our own Money. You realise that? You cant print more if you need it or change interest rates. You DO understand what that means dont you? You do realise that at the moment the BOE takes Scotland into account when making decisions about such things....and in future they wouldnt have to. YOU DO REALISE THIS I AM SURE??
And last but not least.....how the hell can you make a decision on ANY of the aspects of independence without knowing......infact im not even gonna finish that sentence. I would literally kill my brother for such jaw dropping stupidity and hes only just out of childhood.
This is the issue with nationalism. It makes you not think.
Now.......tell me why would you vote for Alex id you didnt know what his plans were? Does the fact he has a scottsh accent mean he is by default "on your side"?
Now.......tell me why would you vote for Alex id you didnt know what his plans were? Does the fact he has a scottsh accent mean he is by default "on your side"?
You wouldn't and to coin a phrase Sweet mary and joseph - how hard is this to understand - a YES vote in the referendum is not about voting for Alex Salmond it is about voting for Scotland's future - for the type of democracy we want as a society, a community. The future of Scotland. Should it be like every other country - Independent and able to make its own decisions or not. Who will run an independent Scotland is up to the people of Scotland - not Alex Salmond, not Johann Lamont, not Ruth Davidson, not Willie Rennie - or Cameron, Clegg or Milliband - it is up to US.
You have got to be kidding when you say it makes people not think - that's all many of us are doing on both sides of the debate - thinking and discussing and challenging and disagreeing and agreeing and commenting. The argument that those wanting an independent Scotland are somehow stupid or thoughtless is exactly that stupid and thoughtless and beneath you.
Ducati - "rUK" is secessionist flimflam for "The remainder of the UK after Scotland has braveheartedly declared total independence" (apart from Queen, custom and practice, and sterling). Imagine, if you like, a disembodied tail trying to wag a dog. That's it. Impressive, huh?
I shall be referring to post NO! vote Scotland as Ukotland from now on. Irritating isn't it?
rob murray
03-Oct-12, 16:14
1: Who has a £10bn hole in their vague post independence budget that donest have to worry right now about non means tested benefits......The SNP
2: Who has not explained how they will pay for these benefits, or eve what currency they would pay it in.....the SNP
3: Who has to yet to explain what they are going to do about any of this......the SNP
Yep and they now have no need to explain as they are not being asked direct questions, the attack is on the ideology of universality, which is part of Labours re evaluation as a whole. Meanwhile they, Labour, have set themselves up as "takers" " sorta "givers" ( but within limits ) Now how an independant Scotland pays for this situation going forward and assuming an SNP majority , we dont know, they ( SNP ) cant cost things out...budgetary limits etc are set at UK levels, unclear issues etc etc etc. All the major Uk party clowns are doing, is stoking up SNP support....people wont give up bread and circuses. WHo gains from Scottish seperatism.....The Tories, as there will be no scots mps ( majority being labour ) so they have no real need to make any fuss, but Labour....they face wipe out come seperatism...Lamont should have kept her big mouth shut...
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