View Full Version : I used to think Scottish Labour falling apart was funny, now it's just pathetic...
Probably the one time Johann Lamont was actually available for comment that most Labour Supporters wish she wasn't.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/labour-in-radical-shift-away-from-free-services-1-2545580 there's also a full transcript of her speech at http://www.labourhame.com/archives/3281 with some very concerned comments from Labour supporters. (Edit: actually those comments seem to have been deleted now, so much for free and open discourse).
Lots of false dilemmas in that speech perhaps she's taking more the Conservatives than just policies.
Basically Johann Lamont signals Labour policy shift away from free public services. They are to scrap free university tuition, free NHS prescriptions and the council tax freeze. Some party of the working person, I am not impressed. It also seems like electoral suicide.
Has Craig Levine taken over SLAB policy? I mean... 'Scotland’s “something for nothing” culture...' even the Tories wouldn't go that far.
Could Johann Lamont's call to end Scotland's 'something for nothing' culture be an oblique challenge to the nationalists' assurance that an independent Scotland would be financially secure? Her lastest diatribe can only contribute to the steady decline of Scottish labour. I remember her predecessors in the Labour administration increased council tax above the rate of inflation year after year, God knows where they expected the working poor to conjure up the increased payments. I remember too, the prescription tax on the sick and vulnerable. In 2007 there was a huge swing to SNP, not because everyone wanted independence but because Labour turned against the very people it purported to support. In Johann Lamont I see the same vindictive attitude.
I think she is more reacting against the SNP telling us all it is free. Of course, it isn't.
So you have to make choices.
I'd be delighted to pay the tuition fees of Polish students for instance, if Scottish homeless people we not dying on the streets of Edinburgh, or sick, premature babies were not being born to drug and /or alchalol addicted mothers.
These are the sort of choices that have been made by the SNP government.
So you have to make choices.
I'd be delighted to pay the tuition fees of Polish students for instance, if Scottish homeless people we not dying on the streets of Edinburgh, or sick, premature babies were not being born to drug and /or alchalol addicted mothers.
These are the sort of choices that have been made by the SNP government.
That would be an example of a false dilemma. It's traditonally something the right is good with but evidentally the left - if you can still call Labour the left - have been taking lessons. Another one would be:
She said: “What price your free prescription when an elderly relative spends five hours on a trolley in A&E, or the life saving drug they need isn’t available at all.
Why do free prescriptions have to go to improve the NHS? Why not nuclear weapons?
That would be an example of a false dilemma. It's traditonally something the right is good with but evidentally the left - if you can still call Labour the left - have been taking lessons. Another one would be:
Why do free prescriptions have to go to improve the NHS? Why not nuclear weapons?
These are things the SNP choose to spend on (or not) from the block grant. Nuclear Weapons is a red herring.
changilass
26-Sep-12, 15:45
Why should everyone in the country get free prescriptions?
If free prescriptions were taken away then that money could be used in the NHS in a number of different ways.
Means testing may be expensive and time consuming in the short term, but the long term benefits would save a fortune.
Why does every pensioner get the winter fuel allowance? ... even those living abroad in hot countries get it.
Same with the bus pass, it is not needed by all pensioners.
If you take away from those that don't need, then there would be more to go round those that actually do need.
Why should university courses be free? There are bursaries and loans available, these are only paid back when the student gets a decent job with reasonable pay.
Its about time folks stopped thinking the world owes them something, for 1, it doesn't and 2, it cant afford it.[evil]
Rant over ........... for now:lol:
Why should everyone in the country get free prescriptions?
If free prescriptions were taken away then that money could be used in the NHS in a number of different ways.
Means testing may be expensive and time consuming in the short term, but the long term benefits would save a fortune.
Why does every pensioner get the winter fuel allowance? ... even those living abroad in hot countries get it.
Same with the bus pass, it is not needed by all pensioners.
If you take away from those that don't need, then there would be more to go round those that actually do need.
Why should university courses be free? There are bursaries and loans available, these are only paid back when the student gets a decent job with reasonable pay.
Its about time folks stopped thinking the world owes them something, for 1, it doesn't and 2, it cant afford it.[evil]
Rant over ........... for now:lol:
You may wish to read up on some of the policies before giving glib interpretations. University for example students already have to take loans for cost of living etc. All that is 'free' is tuition. Why should I have to pay for any schools when I don't plan to ever have any children? I've never been to Manchester why should I have to pay for anything there?
The danger when dealing with benefits for pensioners particularly is that if they have to claim pensioners particularly DONT claim thats why these things should be universal. you dont need to set up a whole pile of bureauctratic nonsense to means test them. If someone is a higher rate tax payer then alter the tax allowances to get the money back. That's not such a difficult way of doing it.
changilass
26-Sep-12, 17:32
You may wish to read up on some of the policies before giving glib interpretations. University for example students already have to take loans for cost of living etc. All that is 'free' is tuition. Why should I have to pay for any schools when I don't plan to ever have any children? I've never been to Manchester why should I have to pay for anything there?
I know tuition is the only thing that is free, but a loan can be taken out for that too.
I wasn't being 'glib'.
I am entitled to an opinion just the same as you are.
This just happens to be mine, I am happy with it, as I am sure you are with yours.
changilass
26-Sep-12, 17:35
The danger when dealing with benefits for pensioners particularly is that if they have to claim pensioners particularly DONT claim thats why these things should be universal. you dont need to set up a whole pile of bureauctratic nonsense to means test them. If someone is a higher rate tax payer then alter the tax allowances to get the money back. That's not such a difficult way of doing it.
Fair comment Squidge, not everyone claims all they are entitled. Not sure why this hasn't been done already.
Having said that, not sure how fair they can make it, look at what they have done with child benefit.
It hasnt been done because the Scottish Government doesn't have the power to do it and there is no political will to increase any taxation on the well off from Westminster. Child benefit is different - cos its a family benefit and the problems arise from having indpendent taxation - as couples are no longer taxed together - no married allowance there is no way to consider joint income. This is why a couple can earn nearly 80k and still get it whilst one person earning 50k means they lose it. Stupid policy with no proper thought.
Strangley appropriate picture:
http://i.imgur.com/NaIam.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NaIam.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/NaIam.jpg)
It's like the party, or perhaps just the leader is schizophrenic or has BPD. I'm surprised people aren't more upset with the eader of Scottish Labour, just abandoning over a century of Labour values in a single speech. If you accept her fundamental argument then all universal services must go because everyone of them is subject to the same “unfairness”. That means the entire NHS, all public education and all public funded services, that even means the taxation system - except for defence and policing - taxation, can only be justified on the basis of universality, because otherwise the wealthy have no reason to contribute.
I guess Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives are moving towards a single monoparty faster than I thought.
Johann Lamont is expected to refer to Alex Salmond as being the "Heir to Margaret Thatcher" and to refer to the SNP as being "Tartan Tories" during a speech today. That has to be the definition of irony.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/lamont-to-launch-fightback-with-snp-tartan-tories-jibe.19039405
http://i.imgur.com/UnFYF.jpg
weezer 316
04-Oct-12, 22:20
For the love of christ. I swear I get stupider and stupider every time I read a thread like this :-p
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