View Full Version : Perth- Inverness Dual Carriageway, is it worth it?
The Scottish Government may be bringing forward the £3 billion dual carriageway upgrade, presumably before the independence vote so Alex Salmond can negotiate extra money from westminster to pay for it.
But the question still needs to be asked, is the upgrade worth the £600 from every person in Scotland to dual 110 miles?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19564702
As we are still part of the UK would not our UK friends be putting something in to pay for it? Just as we Scots put something in to cover the cost of building the M25!!
Also, seeing how many deaths there are per year on the A9 I would gladly put in £600 if it saved just one life, how about you Rheg?
And where do you get your £600 figure from?
C3................:roll:
yes yes yes - it is worth double triple that to make sure that road is as safe as it can be. All those poor people who have lost their lives this year alone. It MUST be done and done soon.
As we are still part of the UK would not our UK friends be putting something in to pay for it? Just as we Scots put something in to cover the cost of building the M25!!
Also, seeing how many deaths there are per year on the A9 I would gladly put in £600 if it saved just one life, how about you Rheg?
And where do you get your £600 figure from?
C3................:roll:
Oh yes I agree that the whole of the UK should pay something, but the question is it worth it? In an independent Scotland, the Scottish taxpayers will be paying a much higher and disproportionate amount to upgrade the roads when compared to what taxpayers in England and Wales will pay. And I think how I derived my £600 is blatantly obvious if you know the cost and the population of Scotland.
yes yes yes - it is worth double triple that to make sure that road is as safe as it can be. All those poor people who have lost their lives this year alone. It MUST be done and done soon.
If you know anything about safety and its management then you will know that you can throw money hand over fist at the safety of anything but at some point you got to ask yourself is it worth that amount to save x amount of lives. You can't bankrupt the country to have the safest roads and 0 avoidable accidents but then something needs to be spent to make the roads reasonably safe.
Even Chance
12-Sep-12, 11:06
Its a no-brainer! How can you even ask the question? If it saves just ONE life then its good.
Its a no-brainer! How can you even ask the question? If it saves just ONE life then its good.
Is it a no brainer though? If safety is your ultimate priority then perhaps there is other ways to spend that £3 billion on the existing road to keep accidents down rather than upgrading just 110 miles.
Ridiculous as it sounds but £3 billion could pay for 1000 police officers for 50 years to patrol that 110 mile stretch.
Even Chance
12-Sep-12, 11:32
Is it a no brainer though? If safety is your ultimate priority then perhaps there is other ways to spend that £3 billion on the existing road to keep accidents down rather than upgrading just 110 miles.
Ridiculous as it sounds but £3 billion could pay for 1000 police officers for 50 years to patrol that 110 mile stretch.
Still disna matter. At road is THE most dangerous in Scotland. Still a no-brainer im afraid.
The whole thing should have been a dual carriageway in the first place.
Definately a Yes and when they are at it they can do the stretch from the Cromarty Bridge to the Tore Roundabout which to me is the most infuriating bit of road.Even a crawler road on borh sides would be a help.
Perhaps the SNP need to realise that it isn't the 1950s anymore, building more roads just leads to more traffic. Ultimately self defeating.
Croftergirl
12-Sep-12, 11:58
YES, I drive up and doon at road regularly towing a sheep trailer, if it makes my drive less stressful n easier I'll be delighted. Can't come soon enough for me.
Perhaps the SNP need to realise that it isn't the 1950s anymore, building more roads just leads to more traffic. Ultimately self defeating.
If Scotland is to be a growing economy whether it is independent or whether it remains part of the union, it has to have safe and modern transport links. The A9 has been neglected and neglected and neglected during successive UK and Scottish governments. We should delay no longer. It will be expensive - yes but it will be worth it in the long run. We have to have this road upgraded to reduce accidents and deaths and to encourage investment in the Highlands. I am sure that the A9 must cost companies thousands of pounds in delays and diversions. Remember that this isnt the ONLY thing that is being done - there is a commitment to spending £1bn on public transport and other sustainable transport options during 2012/2013 so its not the only thing that is being done. We have seen plenty of muttering here about focus being on the central belt but this decision is a massive benefit to us in the Highlands. Dualling it alone will make it safer, it wont prevent every accident but it will prevent some. It will make it a 21st centrury road able to handle the traffic and the need for a high quality link from the central belt to the Highlands and it will reduce deaths and accidents. Seems like a no brainer to me. It is important that we improve rail links and air links for the Highlands and Islands but road - whether we like it or not - remains a vital part of the transport infrastructure and we NEED this doing now.
It is important that we improve rail links and air links for the Highlands and Islands but road - whether we like it or not - remains a vital part of the transport infrastructure and we NEED this doing now.
Rail links will not be improved if roads are great so nobody wants to go by rail. How can we persuade people to get out of their cars if we make fantastic roads to drive upon? Will you get on to a train if journey times for cars are continually improved? :confused
Invisible
12-Sep-12, 13:11
Where do I pay?
It's not roads that are dangerous it is drivers. The amount of times I've had to take evasive action because some D Head has tried to defy the laws of physics overtaking I can not count. Drivers that cause death by dangerous driving should be convicted of murder and given life.
Despite this I never take to train. Sorry Reg.
Why stop at Inverness?
Cant they make the road duel carriageway all the way up?
Well at least past the Tore roundabout...with an extra lane sections for overtaking further up!
And as for the railway...if you have a car and can get to Inverness in just over 2 1/2 hours at a time that suits why on earth would you want to spend 4 hrs on the train with grim loos, heating? and a lacklustre buffet cart(if its still operating).
We need good road and rail links to keep the highlands alive.....and we have neither.
Why stop at Inverness?
Cant they make the road duel carriageway all the way up?....[]....We need good road and rail links to keep the highlands alive.
Are you sure about that?
What would be the real consequences of improve road links?
As journey times are reduced, there is a strong possibility that the few manufacturing and services that we already have here will suffer even further as companies from the south will find it easier to compete with local firms.
Cost and quality of journey would make people use the trains. I went to Edinburgh by train recently and it cost me £20 return - I couldnt drive it for those prices, however if we were all going it would have cost me £80 and I definitely would have driven. It was however a great journey. Ducati is right that drivers cause accidents but some roads seem to encourage risk taking and bad driving and the A9 is one of them and so it needs fixing.
What would your suggestions be then Rheg?
I think it's worth it. Scotland needs better transport links and investment in transport. It's been woefully underfunded for years.
Pity we couldn't get some money from that UK national fund. The one the current government raided to build a new sewage system in London. (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4698-anger-at-plans-to-pour-scottish-taxpayers-cash-goes-london-drains)
If we had a better road, we might actually get our courier deliveries on time....and maybe the Highland extra postage charge might be reduced.
Might not get stuck behind a windmill(or parts of) being delivered on the Berridale Braes.
The journey times South might be less as you can get past slow moving traffic.
Things being constructed in Caithness can be transported down the line easier.
And we might even get somewhere to eat and drink thats open 24hrs on the route....they say tiredness kills yet there is nothing open where you can stop and take a break, walk around, go to the loo and get a coffee and a sandwich from Perth upwards at 3am!
Tesco in Inverness coffee shop is shut, the skiach its only the petrol station open....
What would your suggestions be then Rheg?
I'm not a civil engineer nor do I hold the purse strings of Scotland, that said I think we need a sustainable and safe transport policy for the future.
My main critique of dualling the A9 is that it is the easy if not the lazy option for a quick fix to just 110 miles of the A9 but doesn't tackle the underlying causes of the problem that affects the Scottish road network as a whole. The problem is too many roads without enough traffic on them and too much traffic on too few roads. This problem is caused by centralisation of our economy. There are too many people going to and from the cental belt just to keep the battered Highland economy going. This creates brain drains, too many holiday homes, commuter belts, absent family members, economic sterilisation of our high streets, etc etc etc. Centralisation is changing the face of Scotland.
We need more localism. Incentives that will keep our people local. This will retain the character of our outlying areas and increase diversity on our high streets. Yes improve rail links but the traffic and safety on the A9 will improve and take care of itself if we are taking more local journeys to work and visiting family around the corner.
Accidents are caused largely by impatience and impatience on the A9 is largely created by the need to get up here to deliver stuff and get back to the central belt in a hurry and at the same time dodge all the good traffic like tourist traffic that takes its time.
There is no such thing as a dangerous road, only dangerous drivers, but unless you're fimiliar with that road and paying full attention, it can be a confusing stretch of road at times, especially for foreigners. The whole, dual, single, dual, single nature of it was a bad idea. It is a lot of money to upgrade it, but bad drivers are not going to change their ways, and if the upgrade saves even one innocent life, then it has to be a good idea.
I'm not a civil engineer nor do I hold the purse strings of Scotland, that said I think we need a sustainable and safe transport policy for the future.
My main critique of dualling the A9 is that it is the easy if not the lazy option for a quick fix to just 110 miles of the A9 but doesn't tackle the underlying causes of the problem that affects the Scottish road network as a whole. The problem is too many roads without enough traffic on them and too much traffic on too few roads. This problem is caused by centralisation of our economy. There are too many people going to and from the cental belt just to keep the battered Highland economy going. This creates brain drains, too many holiday homes, commuter belts, absent family members, economic sterilisation of our high streets, etc etc etc. Centralisation is changing the face of Scotland.
We need more localism. Incentives that will keep our people local. This will retain the character of our outlying areas and increase diversity on our high streets. Yes improve rail links but the traffic and safety on the A9 will improve and take care of itself if we are taking more local journeys to work and visiting family around the corner.
Accidents are caused largely by impatience and impatience on the A9 is largely created by the need to get up here to deliver stuff and get back to the central belt in a hurry and at the same time dodge all the good traffic like tourist traffic that takes its time.
It seems that this is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. You say that improving the A9 will lead to more centralisation and whilst I agree that we need more localism I believe that to get more localism we need investment and jobs - therefore we need to encourage investors to look to the highlands - that means that we need the A9 to be improved to make journeys safer and easier.
It seems that this is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. You say that improving the A9 will lead to more centralisation and whilst I agree that we need more localism I believe that to get more localism we need investment and jobs - therefore we need to encourage investors to look to the highlands - that means that we need the A9 to be improved to make journeys safer and easier.
The trouble with discussing the A9 with SNP zealots is that dualling the A9 is the poster policy for the SNP in the highlands and therefore anything that is critical to it must be condemned.
I'm not patting you on the head or being condescending to you personally or anything, it is just the way things are when discussing things like this. The SNP are in a bit of a pickle with transport, energy and the environment. They play the goodcop-bad cop to court support on all fronts just to make independence more credible without any long term improvement for that very transport, energy and environment. It is just all disjointed policies without a sustainable strategy and direction, does the SNP want to reduce traffic, accidents, go to a low carbon economy and/or just improve life in Scotland or not? You can't improve roads and then expect less cars to use them, you can't give incentives to coal, gas and oil industries and expect a few wind turbines and wave machines to lower carbon emissions and make us feel all green and cosy. SNP policy is chaos really.
Talk about dualling the A9, whatever happened to Alex's promise for an underpass at Crubenmore? Don't hold your breath. It'll just cut Scotland in half down the middle.
You are so rude and dismissive. If you started this thread to have a shot at Independence then fine - I thought we were having a perfectly good discsussion about the bloody road! I have been up and down that road several times this summer and have been delayed and diverted because of horrific accidents three times on the trot. The carnage on that road is devastating people's lives. I have NO IDEA about the SNP policy on transport other than what I read on the BBC today.
If it "is the way things are when we are discussing things like this" then that is because YOU make them so. Me???? I was simply expressing my own opininon. We have to have a modern transport system and the roads are part of that .... the A9 is a terrible road and that is because it has been neglected for so long so yes bring on the dualling of the whole thing and whilst we are at it lets do the A96 as well. I think the A9 prevents investment in the Highlands because it is a difficult journey north. That is MY view - you???? Well you can take your politicking and bile yir heid
You are so rude and dismissive. If you started this thread to have a shot at Independence then fine - I thought we were having a perfectly good discsussion about the bloody road! I have been up and down that road several times this summer and have been delayed and diverted because of horrific accidents three times on the trot. The carnage on that road is devastating people's lives. I have NO IDEA about the SNP policy on transport other than what I read on the BBC today.
If it "is the way things are when we are discussing things like this" then that is because YOU make them so. Me???? I was simply expressing my own opininon. We have to have a modern transport system and the roads are part of that .... the A9 is a terrible road and that is because it has been neglected for so long so yes bring on the dualling of the whole thing and whilst we are at it lets do the A96 as well. I think the A9 prevents investment in the Highlands because it is a difficult journey north. That is MY view - you???? Well you can take your politicking and bile yir heid
You are the one of a few who preaches SNP policy, you are the one who openly campaigns for independence and SNP. You are the one who has stepped out of the shadows and added yourself to the cause. You are the one who dismissed that traffic on the A9 cannot be improved without making the most out of what it is already. You are the one who is offended and that it is you who has made you feel the way you do.
How about this? We all pay 600 quid to get the road dualed and make it a toll road. Then they can pay us back every year. Toll roads are de rigueur all over Europe so why not? The SNP were nuts to remove all the bridge tolls IMO.
Well you can take your politicking and bile yir heid
Oh Squidge, there was only one thing on Rheg's agenda when he started this thread. It is getting very tedious now and I for one am not going to get drawn into his threads any longer. I suggest you do the same as I am sure he is sniggering while he writes the bile!!
C3.....[disgust][disgust]
There is another side to the debate of dualling the A9 which is political but hasn't been addressed so far. Alex Salmond presented an ambitious programme of building infrastructure, basically a wish list of nice to haves that he is convinced will promote growth and get us out of recession. I have no doubt that dualling the A9 is very much a part of this strategy and whilst the motives may be honorable, however the science behind the policy must be dubious unless it ticks all the boxes under the coordinated headings of transport, energy and the environment. If not then one consequence will eventually compromise one other area of SNP policy.
How about this? We all pay 600 quid to get the road dualed and make it a toll road. Then they can pay us back every year. Toll roads are de rigueur all over Europe so why not? The SNP were nuts to remove all the bridge tolls IMO.
That is worth considering Ducati. I love the M6 toll - its great. Im not sure it would work with the A9 cos there isnt a feasible alternative route. However what COULD happen is that Scottish Motorways could be toll roads and that would pay for the A9 upgrade.
the other things that I notice about the autoroute in France for instance is that there is a much longer gap between exits - we jump off and jump on the motorways to travel relatively short distances - that seems to be different on the continent. We would need to completely rethink the road network to allow that to happen though.
You are the one of a few who preaches SNP policy, you are the one who openly campaigns for independence and SNP. You are the one who has stepped out of the shadows and added yourself to the cause. You are the one who dismissed that traffic on the A9 cannot be improved without making the most out of what it is already. You are the one who is offended and that it is you who has made you feel the way you do.
I am pro independence. I dont campaign on behalf of the SNP and I dont preach SNP policy. I amnt offended actually - more exasperated. You have so much knowledge about this stuff - thats why I asked what the alternatives are. You dont want to share that though Rheghead you just want to sneer and snipe.
You make a point, I give my opininon and you simply dismiss it as propoganda or "lies presented as fact ( point of which the only one you managed to find was Oddquine's mistake). You are missing an opportunity, to convince, educate and debate - you miss the chance to say stuff which is informative and useful cos you are so busy having a sniggery dig. You are better than that - its disappointing
Mystical Potato Head
12-Sep-12, 19:03
You are so rude and dismissive. If you started this thread to have a shot at Independence then fine - I thought we were having a perfectly good discsussion about the bloody road! I have been up and down that road several times this summer and have been delayed and diverted because of horrific accidents three times on the trot. The carnage on that road is devastating people's lives. I have NO IDEA about the SNP policy on transport other than what I read on the BBC today.
If it "is the way things are when we are discussing things like this" then that is because YOU make them so. Me???? I was simply expressing my own opininon. We have to have a modern transport system and the roads are part of that .... the A9 is a terrible road and that is because it has been neglected for so long so yes bring on the dualling of the whole thing and whilst we are at it lets do the A96 as well. I think the A9 prevents investment in the Highlands because it is a difficult journey north. That is MY view - you???? Well you can take your politicking and bile yir heid
You obviously have not realised this yet but you're not entitled to your view if it differs from Rheghead.
Well you are entitled to it but it will be thrown back in your face with a good dose of condescending ridicule added.
Differing views are never accepted or debated,just made fun of.Perhaps thats why fewer people become involved in these type of threads.
I amnt offended actually - more exasperated.
well I kinda saw through the debating tactic of The Great Offended. It doesn't work.
You obviously have not realised this yet but you're not entitled to your view if it differs from Rheghead.
Ha! Not that old chestnut again? I'd be pretty naive and stupid to come on here with an idea that is unpopular and to think everyone should toe my line, I would have given up long ago if I couldn't accept that people had their own unchallengeable opinions.
My angle with squidge was that I am a bit bored of the one sided arguments that are coming from the SNP zealots, challenge any of SNP policies and you are somehow challenging the credibility of independence itself.
Well I have news for you, the SNP are not the only pro-independence party in town and they are having none of the dualling of the A9 is good for Scotland propaganda.
Mystical Potato Head
12-Sep-12, 21:15
Ha! Not that old chestnut again? I'd be pretty naive and stupid to come on here with an idea that is unpopular and to think everyone should toe my line, I would have given up long ago if I couldn't accept that people had their own unchallengeable opinions.
My angle with squidge was that I am a bit bored of the one sided arguments that are coming from the SNP zealots, challenge any of SNP policies and you are somehow challenging the credibility of independence itself.
Well I have news for you, the SNP are not the only pro-independence party in town and they are having none of the dualling of the A9 is good for Scotland propaganda.
Well i have news for you,i am not a SNP supporter.Its funny how you are a bit bored with the one sided arguments coming from the SNP zeolots but
how many are equally bored by your constant one sided arguments.Anything you dont agree with is somehow dismissed as propaganda from the other side.
Well i have news for you,i am not a SNP supporter.
I didn't say you were, why do you take take things so personally?
I think you may rub people up the wrong way but Im not saying you do it intentionally. Your good at it though. :lol:
I think you may rub people up the wrong way but Im not saying you do it intentionally. Your good at it though. :lol:
I guess you're right. It's just my writing style, honest! :lol: Sometimes you just have to do the D.A. and see how far the rabbit hole goes just to see how much mileage is in it.
I've tried to reason with folk why the A9 doesn't need to be upgraded but it would take a top-down approach and change to how we go about our business in Scotland in order to create a sustainable Scotland. There will be huge financial implications and would take a huge political shift to make it happen and I appreciate that not many folk will find it palatable. If it was easy then we'd already be doing it.
There will be huge financial implications and would take a huge political shift to make it happen and I appreciate that not many folk will find it palatable. If it was easy then we'd already be doing it.
It is easy. Just do it. Its all in the attitude. Stock markets rise and fall over attitudes. Confidence alone wont build a road but if you have it it helps. Its crazy to even consider not upgrading the A9. It would be the biggest construction project in the world. Thats a good start for an indepenmdent scotland or even a scotland in Britain.
It is easy. Just do it. Its all in the attitude. Stock markets rise and fall over attitudes. Confidence alone wont build a road but if you have it it helps. Its crazy to even consider not upgrading the A9. It would be the biggest construction project in the world. Thats a good start for an indepenmdent scotland or even a scotland in Britain.
That's not quite what I had in mind, rather I like what can be achieved if we shared more of the passion and inventiveness of this lady. (http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2012/09/12/mum-emily-finch-takes-six-children-to-school-on-one-bicycle/?a_dgi=aolshare_facebook)
Green_not_greed
12-Sep-12, 23:23
The Scottish Government may be bringing forward the £3 billion dual carriageway upgrade, presumably before the independence vote so Alex Salmond can negotiate extra money from westminster to pay for it.
But the question still needs to be asked, is the upgrade worth the £600 from every person in Scotland to dual 110 miles?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19564702
Just remind us all how much it is costing us per household to cover Scotland in wind turbines ? I'm sure that just to pay for wind turbines, significantly more than £600 per person will be extracted from each and for no justified or visible benefit to any of us, where this would immediately benefit all of us in the Highlands. It would be a potential benefit from the wee smug first king of Scotland's government, rather than a disbenefit.
is new security at Holyrood necessary and worth it? £400+ million has been already spent on it
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9526457/Scottish-Parliament-spends-6.5-million-on-Fortress-Holyrood.html
Now,now children stop throwing your toys out of the pram!
I can see both sides of the arguement and I have to agree that £600 per capita to upgrade such a short stretch of road does make one think, equally how does one put a price on a life?
Having travelled the A9 for many years, it has always seemed to be driver inattention that has caused so many accidents and I have seen some of the carnage that has been the result.
I don't see that upgrading to duel carriageway will alter much unless attitudes change, the car is not a a little private armour plated world in which you can travel in security, it can also be a lethal weapon if you are distracted for whatever reason.
With the comments about drivers being confused by the dual then single road, if it is upgraded north to Inverness then surely the problem will just be transferred further north.
radiohead
13-Sep-12, 00:42
I see the upgrades to the A9 North as a valuable use £600 per head, (if that is the real cost), and certainly more cost effective than the project to install Gaelic/English signposts. After all the A9 widening would save lives... I would question the statement that it would be the biggest construction project in the world, but it would certainly be good for British workers when it happens.
Its crazy to even consider not upgrading the A9.
I'd agree. Whether your belief lies in better roads or a better rail network, you're right, it'd be crazy not to consider it.
It would be the biggest construction project in the world. Thats a good start for an indepenmdent scotland or even a scotland in Britain.
Delusion. It's a couple of lanes of tarmac over a hundred miles or so. £3Bn. Hardly groundbreaking constuction or "big" over the timescales mooted. How would we fund the reported £25Bn new forth road bridge?
For me, I think a mixture of new carriageway and traffic enforcement would be an answer. Complete dualing is maybe not needed.
More overtaking lanes, plus a ban on heavy vehicles overtaking would help.
There's more than one way to skin a cat.
As others have said, it's not the road that dangerous, it's the drivers; however, if the road was dualled all the way to Inverness then it would be safer, drivers wouldn't be frustrated being stuck behind a Tesco artic travelling at 40mph. We've all seen the idiot driver that overtakes in all the wrong places, and I admit to having being guilty of it too in the past, with such a long journey that the slightest delay leads to poor judgement. I recently drove from Larbert to Aberdeen and had a very pleasant journey because it was almost dual carriageway the whole way, I set the cruise control at 60mph and enjoyed the drive, I'd like to be able to do the same on the A9. Ask the many families that have endured tragedy from loved ones being killed on the A9 if it's money well spent, I'm sure every one of them will give the same response, it's worth every penny if it saves one more life.
Aaldtimer
13-Sep-12, 03:27
With the comments about drivers being confused by the dual then single road, if it is upgraded north to Inverness then surely the problem will just be transferred further north.
Actually, no it won't. Because the road north of Inverness doesn't switch from dual to single.:roll:
So far 8 against 1 think it's money well spent. Will the minority scream and stamp their feet until we all think the same as them? :-)
Snip
If you know anything about safety and its management then you will know that you can throw money hand over fist at the safety of anything but at some point you got to ask yourself is it worth that amount to save x amount of lives.I'd like you to try tell the bosses of the company I work for the same thing, you'd be drummed out as a nay-sayer. They don't want anyone working for them who doesn't think the same way as them.
I've tried to reason with folk why the A9 doesn't need to be upgraded
No you havent - you have said that it shouldnt be done - talked about an increase in localism and said there must be a sustianable transport policybut havent really said anything of any interest as to how you would do it.
The cycling thing is a great idea but the chances of me cycling to school with the wee ones aloong the A96 is non existant. Its not going to happen. there are no safe cycle routes along the A96 at the point i join it. More cycle lanes are needed and a change in the mindset of drivers would help too. I would do a couple of other small things as well. All children would go to school on a bus if they were not cycling or walking. Parents would not be allowed to drop their children off at school in their car except by special arrangement. To make this work you would have to give ALL children the right to a school bus place not simply those who live two or three miles away from the school. School buses would be like the yellow buses which are seen in the states and should be electric only I think. Drivers would not be allowed to pass these buses if they were stationary. This is the situation in the states and canada I beleive. You only need to see how much less traffic there is on the roads during school holidays to know that this would make a difference.
In addition I think all buses in cities and towns should be electric - no diesel buses at all. The long haul buses could continue with diesel until such a time as we are able to do long routes by electricity. I also dont understand why there isnt more use made of Trolley buses in towns and cities - like they have in Lyon. I understand some people think the wires are an eyesore but they are cheaper and quieter than most other methods and you dont have to dig up the whole city to implement them.
We need better raillinks too - I think that the railways in Europe are subsidised but you only have to jump the TGV to see how much better they are than ours. We are playing catch up here and we may need to spend a LOT of money to get our transport system up to scratch but it must be worth it. Anyone willing to pay a bit more in tax for better transport?
PS - I still think dualling the A9 is neccessary - absolutely necessary.
We mustn't forget that upgrading the road will cause a huge carbon footprint. To offset that I think we'll need to build another eleventy million wind turbines. ;-)
No you havent - you have said that it shouldnt be done - talked about an increase in localism and said there must be a sustianable transport policybut havent really said anything of any interest as to how you would do it.
Yes I have, read my posts. To be unreasonable I would need to just say I was right and you were wrong and leave it at that without giving reasons. I've given reasons at some length as to why the A9 should not be upgraded and given explanations as to why upgrading it would cause more harm in the long run.
You just think I am unreasonable because I attacked the SNP's key flagship policy for the Highlands. Go figure.
I dont think you are unreasonable at all - i haven't said i do - i disagree with the suggestion that the A9 should be left as it is but I agree that we need a joined up policy of public transport which is sustainable. The SNP do not have this although the green party do better and the SDA also give it a reasonable shot. What suggestions do you have to offer for such a policy?
George Brims
14-Sep-12, 01:19
The whole thing should have been a dual carriageway in the first place.
Seconded. However if they are going to spend money there are things they could do cheaper and in the short term to help. Driving it recently, I noticed that there are a lot of places where big trucks and slow-moving campers/caravans would have benefited from a dedicated place to pull off and let queues past. In the US they are called "turnouts". If they are close enough together so you don't have to pull in for long to let the queue go by, you don't even have to stop. They have to be a bit longer than the usual pathetic little layby, and either wide enough that there's room to run through as well as park, or have parking banned. A few dozen of those would be much cheaper than the full and long overdue upgrade, and would probably save a lot of frustration and possibly some lives in the meantime.
Aaldtimer
14-Sep-12, 03:04
[QUOTE=George Brims;976241]Seconded. However if they are going to spend money there are things they could do cheaper and in the short term to help. Driving it recently, I noticed that there are a lot of places where big trucks and slow-moving campers/caravans would have benefited from a dedicated place to pull off and let queues past. In the US they are called "turnouts". If they are close enough together so you don't have to pull in for long to let the queue go by, you don't even have to stop. They have to be a bit longer than the usual pathetic little layby, and either wide enough that there's room to run through as well as park, or have parking banned. A few dozen of those would be much cheaper than the full and long overdue upgrade, and would probably save a lot of frustration and possibly some lives in the meantime.[/QUOT
Fair enough, but that will not stop the confusion of foreign drivers, who already unused to driving on the left, are suddenly confronted with changes from single/double/back to single carriageways.:~(
rob murray
14-Sep-12, 13:04
Why upgrade / dual carriage, quicker access to larger markets = potentially more business ( ever tried driving up and down Inverness - Central belt, regulary ? ) / safety reasons / pump prime economy...that enough ? Oh and equitable distribution of road logisitics, why should the north be deprived, whats the difference between Inverness - Perth and Perth Edinburgh / Glasgow ? Whilst we are on the subject, the A96, again the only road access to Aberdeen from Inverness, Scotland / UK's oil capital, needs dualled as well....same reasons as I started off with, we are not second class citizens !!
George Brims
14-Sep-12, 18:52
[QUOTE=George Brims;976241]Seconded. However if they are going to spend money there are things they could do cheaper and in the short term to help. Driving it recently, I noticed that there are a lot of places where big trucks and slow-moving campers/caravans would have benefited from a dedicated place to pull off and let queues past. In the US they are called "turnouts". If they are close enough together so you don't have to pull in for long to let the queue go by, you don't even have to stop. They have to be a bit longer than the usual pathetic little layby, and either wide enough that there's room to run through as well as park, or have parking banned. A few dozen of those would be much cheaper than the full and long overdue upgrade, and would probably save a lot of frustration and possibly some lives in the meantime.[/QUOT
Fair enough, but that will not stop the confusion of foreign drivers, who already unused to driving on the left, are suddenly confronted with changes from single/double/back to single carriageways.:~(
It's not just the foreign drivers (since I have lived in the US since 1985 that sort of includes me) that aren't following. There seems to be almost universal confusion, based on the way people drove the couple of times I drove up and down there recently. One thing I noticed or rather didn't notice was the bit where you go from single to dual and then just as you get to 70 the speed limit switches to 50 and Caithness blokes from California get their picture taken. Have they removed that?
...Whilst we are on the subject, the A96, again the only road access to Aberdeen from Inverness, Scotland / UK's oil capital, needs dualled as well....
What about the A836, A838 etc, the main road out west. Isn't it about time that they are upgraded from single track?
What about the A836, A838 etc, the main road out west. Isn't it about time that they are upgraded from single track?
Indeed, where would it stop if we had the money?
£3 billion to upgrade the remaining 80 or so miles of the A9 Perth - Inverness to dual carriageway sounds a bit expensive thats about £37.5 million pre mile for another 2 lanes not a whole new dual carriageway that cant be good value for money. I am all for the upgrade it can't come quick enough it's a dangerous road due to heavy traffic and mixing from dual to single carriageway too often. Hope it comes soon but at a more realistic cost.
rob murray
21-Sep-12, 09:21
Indeed, where would it stop if we had the money?
"We" dont have money, governments do...they print it at will, witness quantative easing for banks
[QUOTE=Rheghead;975826]Is it a no brainer though? If safety is your ultimate priority then perhaps there is other ways to spend that £3 billion on the existing road to keep accidents down rather than upgrading just 110 miles.
Ridiculous as it sounds but £3 billion could pay for 1000 police officers for 50 years to patrol that 110 mile stretch.[/QU
I think it should have been done years ago along with the A96, Safety is all about risk assessment and what you deem safe,
Take a little off the risk, the risk is lower. hence dual carrigeway
The crawler lanes on the A9 are a nightmare where everyone wants to pass that lorry all at once out of pure frustration leaving no braking distance between themselves leaving the potential for an accident wide open.
3 billion i say thats nothing to what we as tax payers pay for roads we don't use south of the border!!
Is it a no brainer though? If safety is your ultimate priority then perhaps there is other ways to spend that £3 billion on the existing road to keep accidents down rather than upgrading just 110 miles.
Ridiculous as it sounds but £3 billion could pay for 1000 police officers for 50 years to patrol that 110 mile stretch.
I think it should have been done years ago along with the A96, Safety is all about risk assessment and what you deem safe,
Take a little off the risk, the risk is lower. hence dual carrigeway
The crawler lanes on the A9 are a nightmare where everyone wants to pass that lorry all at once out of pure frustration leaving no braking distance between themselves leaving the potential for an accident wide open.
3 billion i say thats nothing to what we as tax payers pay for roads we don't use south of the border!!
Agree with your last sentence.
But what we really need, not just in Scotland but UK wide, are drivers trained not to expect to get from A to B in the timescale they think they should be able to...what we need are drivers who leave home at a time which allows for hold-ups...and drivers who don't leave home late and spend the rest of their journey playing catch-up to arrive at their destination when they should arrive....what we need are minimum speeds as well as maximum speeds, so the 75 year old, who hasn't yet lost his licence because he can't see so well, or the tourist admiring the scenery, isn't allowed to creep along at 30/40/50 miles an hour while the rest of the road users are driving at the speed-limit and backing up behind him/her...what we need is a speed restriction for a sensible length of time on newly qualified drivers, who know theory, but have never learned practice.....in rural areas particularly, what we need is a legal obligation on the likes of slower transport such as tractors and HGV vehicles to regularly pull in to laybys and allow backed up traffic to get past them...and what we need are drivers who give a toss about anything other than their perception of their entitlement because "they pay Road Tax"...and that, in their very limited minds means they can be a-holes because paying road tax entitles them to be a-holes. Allowing Joe Driving Punter to make up his own mind as to his rights is a recipe for deaths or serious injuries to others.
In the late 1950s, I went, as a passenger, with my uncle from Moray to Edinburgh......and there was then one a-hole (with a fast car) who did overtaking at every overtaking opportunity from the Dava south .He was juiking in and out between cars like someone with a death wish. My uncle said then that he was driving at the speed limit and he betted that by the time we hit the Perth bottleneck, the a-hole would be in Perth and not that far ahead of us.....and he won his bet...the a-hole was two cars ahead. He didn't kill anyone on his journey then, AFAIK,...but that was more by good luck than good management......imo.
Even a motorway/dual carriageway straight through from London to Inverness will make no real appreciable difference to accident levels,imo, unless the driver attracts penalties to make them consider their actions......and that is not something I see happening.
Never understood, tbh, why killing folk by being an a-hole in a car was perceived differently from killing people deliberately by other means...but then I don't drive so don't have the entitlement perception which appears to say that an a-hole in a car is different from an a-hole with a gun or an a-hole with a baseball bat or any other means of ending the lives of others.
secrets in symmetry
23-Sep-12, 22:09
3 billion i say thats nothing to what we as tax payers pay for roads we don't use south of the border!!Lol! That's the sort of blatant untruth we've come to expect from the forum's arch-secessionists. Thanks for the laugh. :cool:
Lol! That's the sort of blatant untruth we've come to expect from the forum's arch-secessionists. Thanks for the laugh. :cool:
You should know by now that people aren't interested in the truth, especially if its backed up by evidence. They're happy to believe in what they want to believe in.
secrets in symmetry
23-Sep-12, 22:17
You should know by now that people aren't interested in the truth, especially if its backed up by evidence. They're happy to believe in what they want to believe in.I know - you taught me that, and I've quoted you several times on this forum! :cool:
Lol! That's the sort of blatant untruth we've come to expect from the forum's arch-secessionists. Thanks for the laugh. :cool:
No No thank you for your expert opinion and arrogance ( this is what we come to expect on the forum )
I would like to see the decent roads you drive on north of the central belt... our roads are a disgrace this is the 21st century
any improvement is welcome 3 billion is nothing if it saves one life and brings the percentage of RTA's down
How much would it cost to just paint arrows on the road every 50 yards or so?
Whilst I agree that the road from Inverness to Perth requires duelling, the problem is NOT the road, it is the small percentage of driving clowns using it. This road is a main artery from north to south and visa versa yet there are people using it that think it is okay to travel at 45-50 mph on it (and I don't mean lorries). This is possibly one of the most irritating driving habits there is. This causes untold frustration leading to potentially risky overtakes etc. Also the complete lack of driving skill, speed perception and distance reading by some of the users is beyond belief. The use of hazard lights when braking is another issue altogether. Why turn on your hazards when your brake lights are sufficient indication that you are slowing down. Duelling will not lead to more cars on the road but at least it will keep some of the dangerous driving habits ie slow moving traffic to one side to let those who like to travel at a steady, safe speed get on with their journey. Remember, speed limits were introduced when cars had rubbish tyres, brakes and no safety equipment and any modern day car is capable of being driven at the speed limit safely it's the person behind the wheel that makes a vehicle unsafe.
This road is a main artery from north to south and visa versa yet there are people using it that think it is okay to travel at 45-50 mph on it (and I don't mean lorries).
Actually it is OK to drive on the A9 at 45-50mph even if you don't drive a lorry.
Know your limits.
http://www.safetayside.co.uk/cameras/know-your-limits.html
If people feel comfortable at travelling at 45-50mph what is wrong with that? They are not breaking the law like those idiots who speed and use mobiles whilst driving the A9!!!
Patience is a virtue and at least you get to your destination and dont end up in a mangled wreck !!!
C3.
I can understand learners and new drivers being cautious on the road but driving 10-15mph below an outdated speed limit CAN be dangerous. I have sat in lines of traffic on the A9 stretching more than a mile and when you do eventually make your way past, it is not a lorry or a bus but someone who obviously does not have the driving knowledge, skill or confidence to drive at a reasonable speed. What is wrong with travelling at 60mp? At lower speeds, people become complacent that they are driving safely, lose concentration, drive too close to other cars and are not aware of other road users enough. I am constantly on that road and the ones holding others up are the ones that get irrate when you overtake them, especially when you are on a motorbike. Lack of awareness and hazard perception are what causes accidents at any speed and drivers who are travelling quickly tend to be more aware of whats going on.
If people feel comfortable at travelling at 45-50mph what is wrong with that? They are not breaking the law like those idiots who speed and use mobiles whilst driving the A9!!!
Patience is a virtue and at least you get to your destination and dont end up in a mangled wreck !!!
C3.
Do you drive in a hat C3?
Actually it is OK to drive on the A9 at 45-50mph even if you don't drive a lorry.
Know your limits.
http://www.safetayside.co.uk/cameras/know-your-limits.html
Rheg, I know the speed limits including the one's for commercials, towing etc so there is no need to be or try to be condacending. I am saying that there is no need for people driving normal cars to be traveling at anything less than the speed limit, if conditions allow it.
If people feel comfortable at travelling at 45-50mph what is wrong with that? They are not breaking the law like those idiots who speed and use mobiles whilst driving the A9!!!
Patience is a virtue and at least you get to your destination and dont end up in a mangled wreck !!!
C3.
What do you define as speeding? 62mph, 65mph, 70mph? I don't see the difference between using a mobile phone (I don't by the way) when driving and having a conversation with a passenger, smoking whilst driving or listening to a debate on the radio as they are all forms of distractions when driving so should those be banned as well? It doesn't matter what speed you travel at, you could always end up in a mangled wreck!!! if there are others around you not paying attention.
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