View Full Version : Property values and the Independence vote
In Caithness. Anyone any insights into how they will be/ are affected before the vote, after the vote yes (as if) and after the vote no. Presumably someone has studied the issue
I'm only asking because I'm thinking of putting a major investment on hold.:~( Well, bailing out altogether actually.
Property prices are going to soar up since we will be living in such a utopian society there will be a massive migration into Scotland from south of the border...
You flitting ducati?
Nope, investing in the area or probably not.
Property prices are going to soar up since we will be living in such a utopian society there will be a massive migration into Scotland from south of the border...
That's good to know. Does anyone actually have any actual information?
As far as I can gather, regardless of the yes or no vote, property prices will increase in Edinburgh and less so in Glasgow, Aberdeen will remain expensive but here in the far north they will remain flat with only those that have a high specification with regard to energy saving holding their price.
The biggest factor in the equation is the availability of employment and services such as The NHS and on both those fronts we are being severly let down by our council and Holyrood.
billmoseley
31-Aug-12, 08:03
it know at the moment they are dropping up here and after the vote it's any ones guess. I would imagine a lot will have to do with employment once dounreay closes
weezer 316
31-Aug-12, 12:49
Yeah any positive ofr negative effect of independence up here I imagine would be hidden by Dounreay closing. I reckon we will be poorer here though as our population is so centralised that it simply wont matter if they invest up here or not.
I woudl imagine prices holding up in the cities though. Population density usually dicates the prices so........
Well I think house prices will plummet through the floor as we all head towards the dole office as Caithness will never again be at the centre of a UK-led fastbreeding renaissance and the SNP consistently fail to push through their renewable energy schemes through local planning. :~(
Without Independence do you think that there is the possibility that Caithness would be at the Centre of a UK -led fast breeding renaissance Rheg?
What will happen to the renewable energy schemes if Scotland doesnt get independence then?
Without Independence do you think that there is the possibility that Caithness would be at the Centre of a UK -led fast breeding renaissance Rheg?
Do you really think there is a better possibility of a fastbreeding programme in Caithness in an independent Scotland? :roll::lol:
What will happen to the renewable energy schemes if Scotland doesnt get independence then?
Well independence does have huge implications over the transition to a low carbon economy. Currently the players are working together, UK, SNP, energy companies etc etc. However, after independence the old distribution network will still need upgrading and who pays for it? Who plans for it? Who claims the CO2 reductions to meet their legally binding EU targets? The RO in Scotland is currently working in unison with that of the rest of UK but what happens to Scottish electricity bills if there is a change? A larger incentive for wave and tidal in the Pentland Firth (3 times higher than for wind) will have a huge negative impact on Scottish bills where as currently the cost is spread across UK bills. A small country who is hugely dependent on selling renewable energy will find that companies will be increasingly reluctant to invest in Scotland as ministers will find it hard to balance the financial incentives for investment against keeping bills down.
An independent England will be not be obliged to buy in expensive Scottish energy and may seek to build more interconnectors to France and Netherlands. Things could get very messy and petty indeed.
rob murray
31-Aug-12, 13:38
Excuse my stupidity but what is meant by Uk led fast breeding renaissance ?
No I dont rheg - I dont really know what fast breeding means either Rob, unless it is to do with rabbits!!!! The way you wrote it Rheg made me wonder whether you thought there was.... Are there rumblings? I know little about renewables or nuclear energy and so I was asking YOU what the plans are within the union as I dont know anything about this subject. Maybe I should add words to my post like "puzzled - Squidge asks" or "Interested - Squidge asks" or "Confrontationally - Squidge asks" or "jokingly - Squidge asks"...
What do you think lol [lol]
rob murray
31-Aug-12, 13:51
[QUOTE=squidge;973486]Without Independence do you think that there is the possibility that Caithness would be at the Centre of a UK -led fast breeding renaissance Rheg?
What will happen to the renewable energy schemes if Scotland doesnt get independence then?[/QUO
You seem to tie in renewables with the issue of Scottish Independance, wind energy sources as is, will continue and so will wind energy expansion as long as money can be made and whoever is in power collects revenues, wave and tidal sources, again if money is to be made, will continue, it matters not a jot if Scotland is independant or not, as long as companies involved are confident that profits can be made and risks mitigated, then renewable energy schemes will continue.
No I dont rheg - I dont really know what fast breeding means either Rob, unless it is to do with rabbits!!!! The way you wrote it Rheg made me wonder whether you thought there was.... Are there rumblings? I know little about renewables or nuclear energy and so I was asking YOU what the plans are within the union as I dont know anything about this subject. Maybe I should add words to my post like "puzzled - Squidge asks" or "Interested - Squidge asks" or "Confrontationally - Squidge asks" or "jokingly - Squidge asks"...
What do you think lol [lol]
Well UKIP who is now the third force in English politics has a policy of having a fastbreeder reactor renaissance. I am of the opinion that there is a considerable amount of support in tory ranks for fastbreeding. So the possibility is there and if renewables fail to deliver due to a lack of support at the local planning stage then it may come to a necessity. What is possible is that when England and Wales are independent then fastbreeding could be a real proposal south of the border. If this happens then I can see opportunities for Caithessians but they won't be in Scotland, there will be a brain drain.
rob murray
31-Aug-12, 14:30
Well UKIP who is now the third force in English politics has a policy of having a fastbreeder reactor renaissance. I am of the opinion that there is a considerable amount of support in tory ranks for fastbreeding. So the possibility is there and if renewables fail to deliver due to a lack of support at the local planning stage then it may come to a necessity. What is possible is that when England and Wales are independent then fastbreeding could be a real proposal south of the border. If this happens then I can see opportunities for Caithessians but they won't be in Scotland, there will be a brain drain.
Planning wont be an issue re renewables : wave / tidal
(Patiently - Squidge says) Im not tying anything in with anyting Rheg - I thought you were suggesting that there are Westminster plans now which will ahve to be shelved if Independence is a reality....
Well independence does have huge implications over the transition to a low carbon economy. Currently the players are working together, UK, SNP, energy companies etc etc. However, after independence the old distribution network will still need upgrading and who pays for it? Who plans for it? Who claims the CO2 reductions to meet their legally binding EU targets? The RO in Scotland is currently working in unison with that of the rest of UK but what happens to Scottish electricity bills if there is a change? A larger incentive for wave and tidal in the Pentland Firth (3 times higher than for wind) will have a huge negative impact on Scottish bills where as currently the cost is spread across UK bills. A small country who is hugely dependent on selling renewable energy will find that companies will be increasingly reluctant to invest in Scotland as ministers will find it hard to balance the financial incentives for investment against keeping bills down.
An independent England will be not be obliged to buy in expensive Scottish energy and may seek to build more interconnectors to France and Netherlands. Things could get very messy and petty indeed.
(Interested - Squidge asks) What is happening now then with the planning for this - areyou saying that everyone is working together and that this will stop if there is a vote for independence? How do you know that? Who is claiming the CO2 reduction targets now - is that split accross "everyone" and so seperating it out will be difficult? Is that what you mean? Can you tell me what is happening elsewhere and are there other models in other countries that are working better? If so - how are they doing things better than the UK? What is the cost of building interconnectors and would it be dearer to do that than continue to get energy from Scotland if the rest of the Uk has to pay for it.?
As for a Brain Drain - isnt there a brain drain already? What other industries could Caithness Attract to keep the economy afloat and even grow it
Planning wont be an issue re renewables : wave / tidal
But paying for it will be as the RO is 3 or 5 times higher than for wind. Over a small population the cost could cripple Scottish industry and Scottish home consumers. At the moment, the UK is keen to push renewables and the SNP are happy to reap the benefit, things will be much different after independence, I hope not though.
As for a Brain Drain - isnt there a brain drain already? What other industries could Caithness Attract to keep the economy afloat and even grow it
What industries has the SNP got earmarked for Caithness? Apart from renewables which is really UK led as well, not much else. At least the UK Government has a proven track record of providing jobs in the area.
rob murray
31-Aug-12, 14:55
But paying for it will be as the RO is 3 or 5 times higher than for wind. Over a small population the cost could cripple Scottish industry and Scottish home consumers. At the moment, the UK is keen to push renewables and the SNP are happy to reap the benefit, things will be much different after independence, I hope not though.
Yes agreed, costs, thats the real issue behind the lack of scale wave / tidal devices, although the costs are not borne to UK or Scotland, they will gain from revenues produced, the costs of design / prototyping / manufacturing wave / tdial devices runs into billions, its not the state thats paying this, oh the UK are not pushing renewables, in Scotland its entirely led by the SNP " The Saudia Arabia of Renewable Energy" that sits at the centre of the independance debate : in the absence of any UK government thinking / policies or interventions : we, the SNP, see the future of Scotand and the re building of our once proud yet neglected manufacturing infrastucture tied to renewable developments....The Saudia Arabia of Renewables...want proof...Thurso will be central to scottish ecomonic developments....must be true it wis in e Groat !
Yes agreed, costs, thats the real issue behind the lack of scale wave / tidal devices, although the costs are not borne to UK or Scotland, they will gain from revenues produced, the costs of design / prototyping / manufacturing wave / tdial devices runs into billions, its not the state thats paying this, oh the UK are not pushing renewables, in Scotland its entirely led by the SNP " The Saudia Arabia of Renewable Energy" that sits at the centre of the independance debate : in the absence of any UK government thinking / policies or interventions : we, the SNP, see the future of Scotand and the re building of our once proud yet neglected manufacturing infrastucture tied to renewable developments....The Saudia Arabia of Renewables...want proof...Thurso will be central to scottish ecomonic developments....must be true it wis in e Groat !
No, the Scottish government is administering the push for renewables in Scotland as it should be of course. The real push is from Westminster and the performance of Scottish renewables is incorperated into UK legally binding targets with the EU.
rob murray
31-Aug-12, 15:08
No, the Scottish government is administering the push for renewables in Scotland as it should be of course. The real push is from Westminster and the performance of Scottish renewables is incorperated into UK legally binding targets with the EU.
Thanks, so the SNP Saudia Arabia of renewable claims, are actually driven by UK central government targets...so the propoganda is original but the idea isnt ?
Thanks, so the SNP Saudia Arabia of renewable claims, are actually driven by UK central government targets...so the propoganda is original but the idea isnt ?
I do not know who first coined the phrase that Scotland was the Saudi Arabia of renewable energy but each time I hear it I suddenly cringe. The facts don't add up for a start to support the analogy.
One of the schemes that Salmond has in mind is an interconnector between Scotland and Norway. He has tried to get funding from Westminster for it but no success yet. He is acutely aware that cooperation is likely to be less over the push for renewables in scotland after independence. So he needs options to export that energy. He needs to store the energy in the hydroelectric plants in Norway. Denmark already does this but at a huge cost.
rob murray
31-Aug-12, 15:30
[QUOTE=Rheghead;973515]I do not know who first coined the phrase that Scotland was the Saudi Arabia of renewable energy but each time I hear it I suddenly cringe. The facts don't add up for a start to support the analogy.[/QUOTE
"Scotland's first minister, Alex Salmond (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/alexsalmond), will eventually allow Scotland to become the "Saudi Arabia of renewable energy (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/renewableenergy)". More than any other country in Europe, Scotland's coastline is blessed with abundant, if unharnessed, marine energy"...blah blah blah...source The Guardian 2011,this phrase has been used many mnay times over the past two years by AS to promote the myth that renewable energy ( wave / tidal ) can re build Scotlands lost manufacturing base, yes the facts far from stack up a point I have made on this forum on many occasions, yet this arguement is key to future SNP economic claims that an independent Scotland will flourish on this the new oil.
weezer 316
31-Aug-12, 21:58
IM no an engineer and wont pretend I understand a great deal about energy transmission becuase I dont, but what exactly is stopping England building lots and lots of its own windfarms, to go on top of its nuclear power and then harnessing wales renewables potential and making themselves self sufficent whilst we sit up here and produce several times the energy we use?
I am sure electricity harnessed here too, espcially this far north, is mostly going to go to waste before hitting even the central belt, never mind England...assuming they buy it.
secrets in symmetry
01-Sep-12, 00:17
I do not know who first coined the phrase that Scotland was the Saudi Arabia of renewable energy but each time I hear it I suddenly cringe. The facts don't add up for a start to support the analogy.You cringe because it's a lie. The wee fat ugly one is an expert in nonsense and lies. In that sense he's no different from any other odd loon or quine.
One of the schemes that Salmond has in mind is an interconnector between Scotland and Norway. He has tried to get funding from Westminster for it but no success yet. He is acutely aware that cooperation is likely to be less over the push for renewables in scotland after independence. So he needs options to export that energy. He needs to store the energy in the hydroelectric plants in Norway. Denmark already does this but at a huge cost.Yes, indeed.
I have no idea how (or if) the energy storage problem for renewables will ever be solved in Scotland. Peter Dow has shown us on this forum how big a problem it is, but I doubt the wee fat ugly one would ever admit how much needs to be done - assuming he understands the scale of the problem in the first place.
(Interested now - Squidge asks) What needs to be done then? how could Scotland - in or out of the union, independent or devo max or not - make renewables work for Scotland? All the things that you guys say are not possible as it stands - how do we make them possible? There is a report today by the IPPR which says that the idea that wind power is inefficient and unreliable is wrong and that Britain can find huge benefit in Wind power. It calls for a pragmatic debate and here is a crazy idea - we could have one here.
Also the energy companies recieve massive subsidies and yet make massive amounts of money which they pay to their shareholders - are we actually paying subsidies to make private companies simply more profitable? Why do they need subsidies at all? Is wind power loss making just because it is or because the technology is rubbish or what? If the British government said they would be working towards only be buying energy from those companies that produce electricity from renewable energy wouldnt we see them striving to improve and develop this form of energy as a matter of course? Do companies not fund their own development and research - is it all funded by subsidies? What impact does EU targets have on this? How come we cant encourage these massively wealthy companies to move to renewables WITHOUT subsidies? Sweden seem to be way ahead of everyone in the use of renewables - what are they doing that we arent or cant? Are they subsidising their energy suppliers too?
SSE is expected to report profits of £1.44 billion and yet will recieve a subsidy of £53 million .....
Where does hydro schemes fit in with the energy picture?
(Interested now - Squidge asks) What needs to be done then? how could Scotland - in or out of the union, independent or devo max or not - make renewables work for Scotland? All the things that you guys say are not possible as it stands - how do we make them possible? There is a report today by the IPPR which says that the idea that wind power is inefficient and unreliable is wrong and that Britain can find huge benefit in Wind power. It calls for a pragmatic debate and here is a crazy idea - we could have one here.
Also the energy companies recieve massive subsidies and yet make massive amounts of money which they pay to their shareholders - are we actually paying subsidies to make private companies simply more profitable? Why do they need subsidies at all? Is wind power loss making just because it is or because the technology is rubbish or what? If the British government said they would be working towards only be buying energy from those companies that produce electricity from renewable energy wouldnt we see them striving to improve and develop this form of energy as a matter of course? Do companies not fund their own development and research - is it all funded by subsidies? What impact does EU targets have on this? How come we cant encourage these massively wealthy companies to move to renewables WITHOUT subsidies? Sweden seem to be way ahead of everyone in the use of renewables - what are they doing that we arent or cant? Are they subsidising their energy suppliers too?
SSE is expected to report profits of £1.44 billion and yet will recieve a subsidy of £53 million .....
Where does hydro schemes fit in with the energy picture?
For the developers and the energy companies, renewable energy projects are just a vehicle to deliver subsidies to them. No subsidies, no renewable energy. We see this in wind energy projects and now emerging tidal and wave projects.
I have nothing useful to add to this discussion. Only that the title got a chuckle out of me it kind of reminded me of something you'd joke the Daily Mail would say. Does anyone know how independence will affect cancer rates? On a side note practically every company considering investment in Scotland has said that independence will have no impact on that, some even say a lower corporate tax rate might even encourage them.
Then again it's just another excuse for people to insult the SNP and a politician on physical appearence instead of policies and a proven track record.
For the developers and the energy companies, renewable energy projects are just a vehicle to deliver subsidies to them. No subsidies, no renewable energy. We see this in wind energy projects and now emerging tidal and wave projects.
Of course the real scandal of this is the lions share of the subsidies is being spent on foreign kit so it isn't even being redistributed or creating jobs in the UK.
I have nothing useful to add to this discussion. Only that the title got a chuckle out of me it kind of reminded me of something you'd joke the Daily Mail would say. Does anyone know how independence will affect cancer rates? On a side note practically every company considering investment in Scotland has said that independence will have no impact on that, some even say a lower corporate tax rate might even encourage them.
Then again it's just another excuse for people to insult the SNP and a politician on physical appearence instead of policies and a proven track record.
It's a good question though isn't it? Particularly as no one can answer it.
It's a good question though isn't it? Particularly as no one can answer it.
Thats because no one has a crystal ball Duke....You might as well ask .."How will 5 years of Tory rule affect property prices"...and no one could answer that either.
C3........;)
Thats because no one has a crystal ball Duke....You might as well ask .."How will 5 years of Tory rule affect property prices"...and no one could answer that either.
C3........;)
Yes but at least you know tory policy is to keep property prices up or they'll lose the vote of the middle classes.
piratelassie
05-Sep-12, 20:54
Are you a Daily Mail reader by any chance?
In Caithness. Anyone any insights into how they will be/ are affected before the vote, after the vote yes (as if) and after the vote no. Presumably someone has studied the issue
I'm only asking because I'm thinking of putting a major investment on hold.:~( Well, bailing out altogether actually.
Are you a Daily Mail reader by any chance?
No. I don't read newspapers, why do you ask?
Ducati,
I think, as others have said, the rundown of Dounreay will have a much larger effect on demand for housing in Caithness and therefore house prices than the independence vote.
The lack of any real investment in the area is a worry, and the loss of skilled work will lower the average income and therefore house prices also.
For all the talk of renewables, I think we all know it will not bring the number of jobs or income into the area that will be lost from Dounreay.
If you're thinking about investing for investments sake, I would think Caithness probably isn't your best bet. If you're planning an investment that you can use, for example a new house, the saving on rent might make it financially rewarding.
Ducati,
I think, as others have said, the rundown of Dounreay will have a much larger effect on demand for housing in Caithness and therefore house prices than the independence vote.
The lack of any real investment in the area is a worry, and the loss of skilled work will lower the average income and therefore house prices also.
For all the talk of renewables, I think we all know it will not bring the number of jobs or income into the area that will be lost from Dounreay.
If you're thinking about investing for investments sake, I would think Caithness probably isn't your best bet. If you're planning an investment that you can use, for example a new house, the saving on rent might make it financially rewarding.
I don't know how significant Dounreay is. I only know a couple of people that work there but I know lots of people that own houses and property. The question really is; is the vote an extra factor? My feeling is it probably is and not just in Caithness. The investment I'm talking about is a renovation to live in, partly funded by the sale of our existing house (the coonsil will be furious [lol]) It will be a significant capital outlay and I'm worried we won't see a reasonable return or may even lose value over time.
Incidentally, most of the higher earners I know work from home via phones and computers.
I don't know how significant Dounreay is. I only know a couple of people that work there but I know lots of people that own houses and property.
There's nearly two thousand people employed directly at Dounreay and the best part of 250 or so at Vulcan.
That's hugely significant in a population sized that of Caithness.
What's the next biggest employer? BT? I'm sure they only employ a fraction of that, at a significantly lower average wage.
You may well be right, independance might influence house prices, especially if Scottish banks and lenders have a lower credit rating, but I thing local economic matters will have a larger effect.
....The investment I'm talking about is a renovation to live in....
If it's to live in then why all the worry about house prices?
Does it really matter if it goes down in value if you have no intention to sell?
If you ever do decide to sell to buy another house then remember that that would have gone down in value also so you wouldn't be losing out.
If it's to live in then why all the worry about house prices?
Does it really matter if it goes down in value if you have no intention to sell?
If you ever do decide to sell to buy another house then remember that that would have gone down in value also so you wouldn't be losing out.
Of course it does. Any investment has to give a return or it is not worthwhile. I have always believed this and with pensions etc. performing so badly it is more important now than ever.
Anyway, as there does not seem to be an answer there is not much point in going on with this thread so I'll lock it.
Oh, I can't.....so on yer go
Of course it does. Any investment has to give a return or it is not worthwhile....
The return is a nice & cosy rent free house to live in.
The return is a nice & cosy rent free house to live in.
A home, for years or for life, doesn't count nowadays unless you can see a profit coming from it, sooner or later.....that's why so many folk were bitten in the bum with the drop in property prices. Thatcher's children rule the UK now, so everything has a price.
A home, for years or for life, doesn't count nowadays unless you can see a profit coming from it, sooner or later.....that's why so many folk were bitten in the bum with the drop in property prices. Thatcher's children rule the UK now, so everything has a price.
Do me a favour! Everyone that ever bought a house is looking for it to increase in value. That's how you move up the property ladder. Predates Thatcher by decades. You either don't own a property or you have a very odd outlook.
Do me a favour! Everyone that ever bought a house is looking for it to increase in value. That's how you move up the property ladder. Predates Thatcher by decades. You either don't own a property or you have a very odd outlook.
Why would you want to move up the property ladder if you already have an satisfactory home? I can see the merit in downsizing from a family home to a smaller one, or upsizing to accommodate a growing family.........or maybe moving from a bad area to a more salubrious one....but not in moving up the property ladder for the sake of it in an effort to increase return on resale. Moving up the property ladder for no reason bar because you can is pointless unless you are out to make profit at each step.
In my younger days, we bought homes, not properties, and tended to live in them for life unless they became inadequate for our needs (or egos)...and the profits on resale were generally inherited by our children.....but we didn't tend to look on owning a home as a monetary investment to be realised in the short/medium term..so there wasn't a competitive "property ladder" as exists today. That arrived with the sale of council housing at a discount, which increased home ownership in Scotland alone by 30% by 1981. Buying your council house with the discounts available gave a decent profit on money invested after a very few years, even if there was no increase in market value, and encouraged "climbing the property ladder" The property ladder concept, eventually resulted in the property bubble which gave the bankers the sub-prime mortgages which have trashed the world economies.
I have owned a property and no longer do....but I guarantee that my reasoning behind the sale price of my property, which was at less than market price, would fall within your "very odd outlook" description.
Why would you want to move up the property ladder if you already have an satisfactory home? I can see the merit in downsizing from a family home to a smaller one, or upsizing to accommodate a growing family.........or maybe moving from a bad area to a more salubrious one....but not in moving up the property ladder for the sake of it in an effort to increase return on resale. Moving up the property ladder for no reason bar because you can is pointless unless you are out to make profit at each step.
In my younger days, we bought homes, not properties, and tended to live in them for life unless they became inadequate for our needs (or egos)...and the profits on resale were generally inherited by our children.....but we didn't tend to look on owning a home as a monetary investment to be realised in the short/medium term..so there wasn't a competitive "property ladder" as exists today. That arrived with the sale of council housing at a discount, which increased home ownership in Scotland alone by 30% by 1981. Buying your council house with the discounts available gave a decent profit on money invested after a very few years, even if there was no increase in market value, and encouraged "climbing the property ladder" The property ladder concept, eventually resulted in the property bubble which gave the bankers the sub-prime mortgages which have trashed the world economies.
I have owned a property and no longer do....but I guarantee that my reasoning behind the sale price of my property, which was at less than market price, would fall within your "very odd outlook" description.
Yes indeed to the odd bit.
Housing has been a terrific investment if you take the long term view. Like any investment there are times when it will do less well and if you are in a position that you need to move at the wrong time you can get caught out. But as I say in the long run it gives a very good return.
Maybe Scotland has or had a different view on housing to the rest of the UK. I came to Scotland only about 20 years ago, but the property ladder was alive and kicking when my parents bought their first house in the '50s
The return is a nice & cosy rent free house to live in.
The return is...................You slog your guts out until you are 65 to pay off the mortgage, you then snuff it and your kids get the spoils of your hard work !!
C3..............;)[lol]
Do me a favour! Everyone that ever bought a house is looking for it to increase in value. That's how you move up the property ladder.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that.
If house prices go up 20%, then a £100,000 house costs £120,000.
But, assuming you're upsizing, the £200,000 house you were going to buy now costs £240,000.
Rising house prices help those who are downsizing, and those inheriting, but not necessarily those on the housing ladder.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that.
If house prices go up 20%, then a £100,000 house costs £120,000.
But, assuming you're upsizing, the £200,000 house you were going to buy now costs £240,000.
Rising house prices help those who are downsizing, and those inheriting, but not necessarily those on the housing ladder.
But if those selling make profits...who cares about the problems faced by those buying? It's certainly not those who who are going to be quids in....is it? And the lack of social housing, combined with rising prices = homelessness...or, at the very least, lack of mobility to access employment opportunities.
But if those selling make profits...who cares about the problems faced by those buying? It's certainly not those who who are going to be quids in....is it?
That depends. If you're talking builders and developers, fair enough. But the normal homebuyer, selling a house for profit to buy a bigger house (that's risen even more in price) will be out of pocket.
And the lack of social housing, combined with rising prices = homelessness...or, at the very least, lack of mobility to access employment opportunities.
Prices will only rise as long as people are willing and able to pay.
Social housing I would say is a different matter altogether.
The return is...................You slog your guts out until you are 65 to pay off the mortgage, you then snuff it and your kids get the spoils of your hard work !!
C3..............;)[lol]
Is that what happened to you? :eek:
I remember you telling us about a visit to Portgower!
How did this turn into a mad tirade against home owners by raving leftys?:Razz
How did this turn into a mad tirade against home owners by raving leftys?:Razz
Nothing wrong with home owners just this unbridled obsession with the value of ones house, even when there is no intention to sell.
Nothing wrong with home owners just this unbridled obsession with the value of ones house, even when there is no intention to sell.
It is important. If you buy a house with a 90% mortgage for instance. The more the value increases the more equity and ultimately capital you build up. That way, as you go through life you mortgage percentage shrinks in relation to the value. Its not an obsession it is perfectly rational. What is an obsession is people completely irrationally reacting against the market. It makes no sense.
It is important. If you buy a house with a 90% mortgage for instance. The more the value increases the more equity and ultimately capital you build up. That way, as you go through life you mortgage percentage shrinks in relation to the value. Its not an obsession it is perfectly rational. What is an obsession is people completely irrationally reacting against the market. It makes no sense.
Why is that important? Really? If you can manage the mortgage and keep a roof over your head.......what does profit at some time in the future have to do with anything..........and what obligation does any government have to ensure that the "market" favours those aiming for profit and not those aiming to get out of homelessness and acquire their own roof?
Why is that important? Really? If you can manage the mortgage and keep a roof over your head.......what does profit at some time in the future have to do with anything..........and what obligation does any government have to ensure that the "market" favours those aiming for profit and not those aiming to get out of homelessness and acquire their own roof?
I'm afraid I have given up with you dude.
Why is it that the depreciation in value of goods you purchase is perfectly acceptable & doesn't stop people buying things, yet when it comes to property some (well... a lot) are never happy unless it is increasing in value?
Why is it that the depreciation in value of goods you purchase is perfectly acceptable & doesn't stop people buying things, yet when it comes to property some (well... a lot) are never happy unless it is increasing in value?
Gordon Bennett! It's just a way for ordinary folk that work for a living to build up a bit of capital. :roll:
Gordon Bennett! It's just a way for ordinary folk that work for a living to build up a bit of capital. :roll:
Isn't it funny that those in favour of independence now seem to come out with pro-communist statements in relation to the property market, is that what they are prepared to accept to make independence justifiable?
Isn't it funny that those in favour of independence now seem to come out with pro-communist statements in relation to the property market, is that what they are prepared to accept to make independence justifiable?
Calling anybody left leaning in their politics a Communist is just as bad as calling someone who is right leaning a Nazi...
Still gives me an excuse to post this picture...
http://thepsychedelicsewingroom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/david-adolf-cameron.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs24/f/2008/021/4/c/devil_laghin_by_Scotsgirl_606.gif
Calling anybody left leaning in their politics a Communist is just as bad as calling someone who is right leaning a Nazi...
Still gives me an excuse to post this picture...
http://thepsychedelicsewingroom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/david-adolf-cameron.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs24/f/2008/021/4/c/devil_laghin_by_Scotsgirl_606.gif
Well you need to get the political moderates on board for independence to be given a chance and it is statements like this that will always kick the independence vote into the long grass.
Just wondering if anyone has any more thoughts on this as the market seems to be reviving slightly?
hedgehogger
26-Jun-13, 12:02
personally i cant see house prices increasing as we have been looking at them over the last few months and its clear now that a lot of owners seem to be desperate to sell. I still see the prices being compared to similar buildings in more populated/affluent areas and there really isn't a comparison as we are in Caithness, not Inverness. There has been several houses on the market lately with an offer price of around 12-15% less than the current market value but maybe its a ploy to make it look like its a big discount as i know one house that was on the market for over a year and was very cheap that changed estate agents and it suddenly shot up 15k in price which was a hugh rise......funnily enough, it's still for sale!. There was even one in Castletown with approx 25% knocked off to sell which sold and has been looking for a tenant ever since. £400 a month in Castletown is a lot to ask for a terraced ex-council house. Rentals are following a similar trend with the greedy landlords asking stupid prices and not getting it into their thick skulls that it isn't getting their houses let but instead of dropping the rent even just a little to an affordable level they seem to be happy to have them sit empty
personally i cant see house prices increasing as we have been looking at them over the last few months and its clear now that a lot of owners seem to be desperate to sell. I still see the prices being compared to similar buildings in more populated/affluent areas and there really isn't a comparison as we are in Caithness, not Inverness. There has been several houses on the market lately with an offer price of around 12-15% less than the current market value but maybe its a ploy to make it look like its a big discount as i know one house that was on the market for over a year and was very cheap that changed estate agents and it suddenly shot up 15k in price which was a hugh rise......funnily enough, it's still for sale!. There was even one in Castletown with approx 25% knocked off to sell which sold and has been looking for a tenant ever since. £400 a month in Castletown is a lot to ask for a terraced ex-council house. Rentals are following a similar trend with the greedy landlords asking stupid prices and not getting it into their thick skulls that it isn't getting their houses let but instead of dropping the rent even just a little to an affordable level they seem to be happy to have them sit empty
And that is what is wrong with the way the world works now.....everything is equated to money, profit and entitlement. I'm not religious..but I think it is said that the love of money is the root of all evil.....or in straitened economic climates, greed for money is the root of derelict properties and land going to rack and ruin.
Once upon a time, in my middle age, a house was bought to be a family home..and a profit, if you ever moved on, was a bonus....but now it seems to be the sole reason for buying a family home...and if they don't achieve the profit the market says they should be making on moving on, then they sit on, if not in the property.
Have to say that I have been looking for a private let nearer my family for a couple of years now, because of so far failing to get anywhere on the council lists...but I refuse to pay a deposit and £350-£400+ monthly for the individual renting me the house to dictate how I live my life. I have to suffer the governments, both UK and Scottish, telling me what I'm allowed to do...so I'm blowed if I'm going to let a punter making profit from me do the same.
And that is what is wrong with the way the world works now......
I like it the way it is.
I'm open to either side of the debate but I do think scaremongering people into voting No because of property prices is pretty low.
I'm open to either side of the debate but I do think scaremongering people into voting No because of property prices is pretty low.
What debate? And I hope you are not accusing me of scaremongering? I asked a question about something that concerns me (still no answer BTW).
What debate? And I hope you are not accusing me of scaremongering? I asked a question about something that concerns me (still no answer BTW).
That would be because nobody knows..not the UK Government or the Scottish Government or any pro-independence supporter. House prices will be what they will be before or after independence..unless you think one or other government should be setting a cap under which they can't drop.
Seems to me that Caithness house prices might do better, especially if, after independence we actually get a Government which gives a toss about all of us not bringing in silly money. After all, think of all the parking garages/sheds etc in London which could be sold for enough to buy a Caithness croft and benefit from a decent socially aware government (and before you go the same sneering anti-Salmond route as gollach...there would only be an SNP Government in an Independent Scotland if we vote one in.)
I came up here hanging to the coat-tails of a Yorkshireman who thought of Scotland as part of England, as opposed to Britain, and who really thought he'd get off without a TV licence and having to get his car licensed...he honestly did...and who paid sweeties for his croft..and sold it on at an inflated price to another Englishman! Now, seems to me if you are getting Englishmen moving up here when we did, under the Lab/Lib waste of space quasi-UK Government....you're going to be fighting off buyers when Scotland is the only decent place to live on the island of Britain. :roll:
I agree, the only decent place to live. I suppose we must wait and see. In the meantime, we decided to go ahead with a different project and are now building for our future. :D
....unless you think one or other government should be setting a cap under which they can't drop...
Cap yes, but not on minimum price but rather on maximum price...
For example... On a new build... Cost of building + a reasonable (but not excessive) profit.
I agree, the only decent place to live. I suppose we must wait and see. In the meantime, we decided to go ahead with a different project and are now building for our future. :D
And so many of us are doing that in one respect or other - whether it be houses or careers, society, families or hopes - we must look to what is important for us and vote in 2014 based on what we believe will offer us the best chance of realising that Future. Whether people vote for or against Independence is immaterial. As long as we cast our vote believing that we are doing the absolute best we can for the future we want for ourselves and our children or grandchildren then we can have nothing to complain about whatever the outcome.
Cap yes, but not on minimum price but rather on maximum price...
For example... On a new build... Cost of building + a reasonable (but not excessive) profit.
The problem with that is if developers don't make a reasonable return they wont develop. You cannot control a free market, that is the point.
I'm open to either side of the debate but I do think scaremongering people into voting No because of property prices is pretty low.
I think eternally scaremongering instead of making a positive case for the Union is pretty low altogether.
What scares me is the increasing extreme left wing views aired by a number of successionists.
The problem with that is if developers don't make a reasonable return they wont develop. You cannot control a free market, that is the point.
Can you not read.... "a reasonable (but not excessive) profit"
What scares me is the increasing extreme left wing views aired by a number of successionists.
And how are they worse than the ranting by extreme Unionists really? There aren't enough people at the extremes of either end of the spectrum in Scotland to have an extreme Government to scare the crap out of anybody come Independence. What do you consider extreme anyway? Me? Alrock? Yourself? Flynn? gollach? SiS? Rheghead? M Swanson? squidge? Imo, the most extreme Government since Thatcher is in power in the UK right now....and to varying degrees that is the kind of government England (and therefore the UK) will always have for the foreseeable future....because you can't get a Rizla paper between their basic policies...and as long as FPTP exists, nothing will change....so that is why we need to change for ourselves.
secrets in symmetry
28-Jun-13, 23:22
Houses in Scotland would be almost worthless after secession. If you think the secessionists have a chance of winning the eckerendum, then sell your house now before it's too late!
Sell your house, buy a motor home, and head south before they close the border.
secrets in symmetry
28-Jun-13, 23:24
What scares me is the increasing extreme left wing views aired by a number of successionists.The irony is that the majority of those secessionists who claim to be left wing are actually right-wing authoritative bigots.
Cap yes, but not on minimum price but rather on maximum price...
For example... On a new build... Cost of building + a reasonable (but not excessive) profit.
I was being tongue in cheek when I spoke about a cap because ducati was worrying about the effect of Independence on property prices..which surprised me, as they will be market driven.....which is something with which he appears to agree. I think they are extortionate down South so the average house price like the average wage will always be skewed upwards in the UK by the big wage/bonus makers and their £million+ properties , but a cap at either end of the process is not the way to go. Nanny-statism has to stop somewhere..hasn't it?
The irony is that the majority of those secessionists who claim to be left wing are actually right-wing authoritative bigots.
Yes exactly, I am still waiting for a reply from oddperson that can convince me that by voting Yes we can get away from the worst aspects of right wing politics. Nice theory but...I believe that the Scottish tories would make Sarah Palin look like Arthur Scargill and that once the SNP national government breaks up on independence we would see a united tory party incl ex SNP tories in a united front.
secrets in symmetry
28-Jun-13, 23:50
Yes exactly, I am still waiting for a reply from oddperson that can convince me that by voting Yes we can get away from the worst aspects of right wing politics. Nice theory but...I believe that the Scottish tories would make Sarah Palin look like Arthur Scargill and that once the SNP national government breaks up on independence we would see a united tory party incl ex SNP tories in a united front.I know a number of the leading lights of the SDA. They make Norman Tebbit look like a socialist.
The oddquine bloke's posts are more uneducated-working-class-authoritarian than the aforementioned Tebbit would ever have dared utter. It's not a good idea to impose one's own failings upon others....
equusdriving
28-Jun-13, 23:54
I refuse to pay a deposit and £350-£400+ monthly for the individual renting me the house to dictate how I live my life. I have to suffer the governments, both UK and Scottish, telling me what I'm allowed to do...so I'm blowed if I'm going to let a punter making profit from me do the same.
good luck in finding a mug oops I mean Landlord, who is not only willing to fork out a vast amount on the purchase of a property, insurance, maintenance etc, but is happy to risk getting a bad tenant who doesn't pay the rent and or trashes the place and or causes problems with the neighbors etc without a deposit, oh and lets not forget, doesn't expect a reasonable rent return on his investment, you certainly are at best an optimist, or more likely living in cloud cuckoo land :D, but then again we already know that by your posts on Independence:lol:
What scares me is the increasing extreme left wing views aired by a number of successionists.Like what?
I know a number of the leading lights of the SDA. They make Norman Tebbit look like a socialist....How do they do that?
Yes exactly, I am still waiting for a reply from oddperson that can convince me that by voting Yes we can get away from the worst aspects of right wing politics. Nice theory but...I believe that the Scottish tories would make Sarah Palin look like Arthur Scargill and that once the SNP national government breaks up on independence we would see a united tory party incl ex SNP tories in a united front.But surely thats not a BAD thing. Robust and meaningful Opposition is vital in a democracy. It curbs the worst excesses of the government in power, it scrutinises and challenges policy and it creates a parliament where the government is held to account. One of the problems in both Holyrood AND westminster is the poor performances of the opposition. Those voters who are naturally right of centre with their views will likely be better served in an independent Scotland than they are with todays utterly unelectable tory party. That will be healthy for our democracy not bad for it.
Can you not read.... "a reasonable (but not excessive) profit"
Yes I can. Free market, who decides? Margins for builders are not excessive in my opinion. That's why many of them went out of business.
But surely thats not a BAD thing. Robust and meaningful Opposition is vital in a democracy. It curbs the worst excesses of the government in power, it scrutinises and challenges policy and it creates a parliament where the government is held to account.
But we've already got that at Westminster. :roll:
What will dictate property prices here in Caithness as anywhere else is, jobs and opportunities for growth in that area.
As far as I can see here in Caithness, the opposite is happening. Jobs are going there is no growth without investment and no-one seems to be investing here in Caithness. Therefore property prices will remain low unless we can attract new investors to our region.
How can we vote on independence when none off us are in possession of the full (truthful) facts ?
secrets in symmetry
29-Jun-13, 22:01
How can we vote on independence when none off us are in possession of the full (truthful) facts ?You should listen to those of us that understand politics and economics. You would be insane to vote for secession unless you want to live in a failed society.
"It`s not a good idea to impose ones own failings on others."
Secrets, You do not have a clue. You are too busy trying to act the know all when you actually know very little about a very lot.
secrets in symmetry
29-Jun-13, 22:28
"It`s not a good idea to impose ones own failings on others."
Secrets, You do not have a clue. You are too busy trying to act the know all when you actually know very little about a very lot.Sadly, you are wrong. Not only do I have a lot of clues, but I've put so many of them together that I now understand why so many people with failed ambitions support secession.
What have you failed to achieve?
Sadly secrets, I am right. You excel in taking parts of jigsaws and putting them where it suits your deluded ideals and try to impose them on others, and when that fails, you resort to personal attacks on those who disagree with you.
"What have I failed to achieve" ? Nothing that I have set out to do, some-times after many attempts. I do not give up on any task I undertake. I am very happy with my lot.
secrets in symmetry
30-Jun-13, 00:30
Sadly secrets, I am right. You excel in taking parts of jigsaws and putting them where it suits your deluded ideals and try to impose them on others, and when that fails, you resort to personal attacks on those who disagree with you.
"What have I failed to achieve" ? Nothing that I have set out to do, some-times after many attempts. I do not give up on any task I undertake. I am very happy with my lot.Never before has so little been said with so many words. That's a massive fail, which is presumably commensurate with all your other fails....
Will you vote for secession and the inevitable collapse of the Scottish state that would follow?
secrets in symmetry
30-Jun-13, 00:36
good luck in finding a mug oops I mean Landlord, who is not only willing to fork out a vast amount on the purchase of a property, insurance, maintenance etc, but is happy to risk getting a bad tenant who doesn't pay the rent and or trashes the place and or causes problems with the neighbors etc without a deposit, oh and lets not forget, doesn't expect a reasonable rent return on his investment, you certainly are at best an optimist, or more likely living in cloud cuckoo land :D, but then again we already know that by your posts on Independence:lol:Indeed. Imposing one's own failings on all others is a sure fire way of ensuring absolute failure of one's own ambitions.
But we've already got that at Westminster. :roll:No we dont have a robust and meaningful opposition at westminster. Thats why there is so little opportunity for change within the Union.
It would be interesting to know what Secrets thinks that those of us who support independence have failed at. He does not know any or all of us personally, he has no idea about the successes and failures of our lives, he simply spouts his utter rubbish as per usual with nothing at all as evidence for his wild and somewhat unhinged assertions.
How can we vote on independence when none off us are in possession of the full (truthful) facts ?You can go look for the facts you want, you can try to understand that neither road offers certainty or guarantees so you nake sure that you understand you are voting for the type of democracy and the type of parliament you want, you can research and ask questions of both sides and see what each are saying, you can read the manifestos and plans for the parties who support independence to understand what options you will have for the first elections in an Independent Scotland, you can talk to people who have made up their minds and ask them why, you can think about your hopes and aspirations for the future - your own and Scotland's Future and decide what is important to you. Once you have done all these things you look to see which offers you the best chance of achieving your hopes and aspirations and that is where your cross goes. Simple lol;)
The main hope of the yes brigade, that I can see, is that we will be a state dependent society funded by oil.
Ok, thats interesting Ducati, perhaps you could expand on that a bit to help people who are undecided
Duke, I hope you're not calling time on your extensive estate! :eek: I was quite impressed with your windfarm proposal.
I think to consider the issue, you need to reverse the veiwpoint. With an Indy Scotland sticking with the EU and the possible renegotiation (or even secession) of rUK with the EU the issue is more of the EU policy and position on housing.
The EU is looking at massive subsidising of social housing in a bid to increase availability thus reducing the welfare costs of individual private rents. Balancing a volatile market & prices, removing an imbalance in supply & demand, create eco efficient cheaper to heat housing and to create jobs.
So the possibility is an offloading of private homes, landlord owned tenanted property and old housing stock becoming more expensive to repair / maintain thus less desirable.
So it's more a question of rUK's position over the next few years.
Ok, thats interesting Ducati, perhaps you could expand on that a bit to help people who are undecided
Everytime I here the term "fairer society". I know exactly what is meant.
Never before has so little been said with so many words. That's a massive fail, which is presumably commensurate with all your other fails....
Will you vote for secession and the inevitable collapse of the Scottish state that would follow?
secrets you are an idiot and a total failure and will remain so with your attitude to other peoples opinions.
You only value one opinion, yours.
Which way I vote will be decided, only after consideration of the full facts, from both sides and not from half wit who thinks he knows it all. Namely you.
secrets in symmetry
30-Jun-13, 19:14
The main hope of the yes brigade, that I can see, is that we will be a state dependent society funded by oil.
Everytime I here the term "fairer society". I know exactly what is meant.
Indeed.
It doesn't take long to spot the pattern. The "fairer society" is an extreme-left-wing fantasy in which you and I (and other people like us) subsidise the failures that voted for secession.
Duke, I hope you're not calling time on your extensive estate! :eek: I was quite impressed with your windfarm proposal.
No No..We've just finished burying vast quantities of money under vast quantities of concrete :lol: so we will be reaching for the sky shortly.
Fairer society means exactly that. It means tax laws that apply to all, it means cuts that affect EVERYBODY, it means looking after the weak and the vulnerable by having transparent, understandable rules for people receiving benefits Which ecourage them to achieve their full potential, either by returning to work or training then to work or by helping them to overcome health issues which affect their quality of life. It means applying the rules equally ensuring that people dont get benefits they are not entitled to by limiting fraud and errors. It means that private companies do not make money out of the misery of people like ATOS do and A4e do simply to put profits in shareholders pockets. It means good employment law, good industrial relations, economic growth, job creation, good accessible free education. It means the end of the gravy train which allows elected public servants to rent houses off each other and claim expenses. It means truly being in this together and not issuing tax cuts for millionaires whilst charging people for a spare room. It means equality of opportunity for every citizen regardless of who they are and where they live. Is that what YOU think it means Ducati? The failures we should be worried about are the failures in todays society which means that the above is not happening NOW. THAT should be our shame and our motivation to change things.
No we dont have a robust and meaningful opposition at westminster. Thats why there is so little opportunity for change within the Union.
I disagree, the opposition is effective in Westminster, the track record of power swinging from one party to the other is direct evidence of its effectiveness.
I disagree, the opposition is effective in Westminster, the track record of power swinging from one party to the other is direct evidence of its effectiveness.
But that is not an effective opposition.....the swinging of power from one party to another in a two party system is direct evidence of the party in power having taken their policies, via the whip system, past the level of acceptance by enough voters to dislodge them. That is an effective whine-fest and a five-year effort to set up their stall in preparation for the next election.
An effective opposition is one which opposes bills and manages to ameliorate them or stop their passage altogether. The House of Lords is a more effective opposition for the current government than the NuLabour Party in the House of Commons......heck the Lib-Dems in the Coalition Government are a more effective opposition to the excesses of the Conservative majority in it than all the NuLabour MPS en bloc are to the Coalition brain-farts. The only real opposition majority Governments have are from their own rebels, not the Party sitting on the benches across the House...after all without the rebels from the governing Party, no bills would be defeated or amended. FPTP and the whip system is a democracy deficit which makes Constituency MPs redundant, unless they are rebels not worried enough about their career prospects to become nothing more than Party voting fodder.
Fairer society means exactly that. It means tax laws that apply to all, it means cuts that affect EVERYBODY, it means looking after the weak and the vulnerable by having transparent, understandable rules for people receiving benefits Which ecourage them to achieve their full potential, either by returning to work or training then to work or by helping them to overcome health issues which affect their quality of life. It means applying the rules equally ensuring that people dont get benefits they are not entitled to by limiting fraud and errors. It means that private companies do not make money out of the misery of people like ATOS do and A4e do simply to put profits in shareholders pockets. It means good employment law, good industrial relations, economic growth, job creation, good accessible free education. It means the end of the gravy train which allows elected public servants to rent houses off each other and claim expenses. It means truly being in this together and not issuing tax cuts for millionaires whilst charging people for a spare room. It means equality of opportunity for every citizen regardless of who they are and where they live. Is that what YOU think it means Ducati? The failures we should be worried about are the failures in todays society which means that the above is not happening NOW. THAT should be our shame and our motivation to change things.
Cloud cuckoo again. How can cuts effect all? If you aint claiming anything how can it be cut? Want to pay 45% tax do you?
We do look after the week and vulnerable. Trouble is we also look after the strong and fit.
I am aware it is cloud cuckoo land and I have no expectations of achieving some sort of utopia. I offered simply a vision of a fair and equal society. However we can work towards a fairer society and make an impact on the spiralling inequalities we see in Britain today and have a more supportive society without raising taxes to 45pence in the pound.
In addition it is worth saying that "cuts" may not affect everyone but austerity should .... The Westminster government made a big deal about being in this together and then proceeded to make severe cuts in welfare and to bring in punitive measures for those on benefits, whilst giving tax cuts to millionaires and making plans for a significant pay rise for themselves and the Queen! They prioritise profit over people and so we spend a disgusting amount on the replacement for Trident whilst people are hVing to use foodbanks.
To have a fairer society we must look after the strong and healthy by encouaging economic growth, well paid sustainable jobs, access to education and trainjng for all, we must look after the weak and the vulnerable by doing exactly the same things and by having a fair supportive and well managed welfare system. We DO NOT have that now. The emphasis is on punishment, vilification and shame. Thats easy to change and would vost pennies to do so.
Small steps, Ducati. Things may not happen overnight but we will have the chance to change course and start the journey to a society which values people, its vast and best resource above all else. One path leads that way if we choose to take it. The other leads to more of the same as we have now. We decide at the ballot box.
equusdriving
03-Jul-13, 10:58
I am aware it is cloud cuckoo land , One path leads that way if we choose to take it. The other leads to more of the same as we have now. We decide at the ballot box. yes at last we agree on something:lol: whats that old saying? oh yes that's it "better the devil you know"
MerlinScot
03-Jul-13, 12:20
That's good to know. Does anyone actually have any actual information?Prices were going down, mainly because of the general economical situation in Caithness, don't think it was referendum-related.
We put something on hold too, because things were not appearing good at all and we feared that we could find ourselves stuck with a huge burden without knowing how to get rid of it.
Then we actually decided to leave for real, so for us it was the right choice.
yes at last we agree on something:lol: whats that old saying? oh yes that's it "better the devil you know"
But when the devil you know is completely incompetent, why? Unless you, personally are quids in under their policies?
We know what the devil we know is going to do until after 2015, at least we have the bullet points....and we can be pretty sure that whichever devil we know gets elected in 2015 nothing much is going to change......because they've said so.
And we know that the Scotland Act will be implemented in full, so instead of having the choice to collect a varying element of our Income Tax, a choice no government has ever made for obvious reasons, we are now to be forced to use it..and obliged to pay HMRC for the privilege.
We know that, despite UK Government rhetoric like "Being part of the UK means Scotland will see its capital spending power increase by almost 13% in real terms in 2015-16, in reality Scotland's Capital spending has just been returned to 2010-2011 levels, and into the bargain, a quarter of a million£ of that, the infrastructure "increase", has to be borrowed at uncompetitive rates from the UK Treasury.
So effectively, we hand over all our taxes to the UK, and have to pay the UK from our block grant to collect the 10p they are no longer going to give us from our own money, and we also have limits set to any amount we can borrow, and are obliged, into the bargain, to borrow our own money from the UK Treasury at uncompetitive interest rates, so we get charged for collection, whether we vary the tax rate or not... and we get to pay through the nose to borrow what we are allowed to borrow from our own input to the UK Treasury.....and the cost of all this extra financing of the UK Treasury has to come out of the block grant....thus reducing the amount available for other priorities.
And at the same time, we are also, via our input into the UK Treasury, helping to finance the £57 billion being pumped into London and the South's infrastructure.
Methinks the Union "Better Together" Dividend accrues to London and the South, and not to Scotland, Wales and NI, with everywhere above the Wash simply unimportant regions of Mother England.
equusdriving
03-Jul-13, 19:11
But when the devil you know is completely incompetent, why? Unless you, personally are quids in under their policies?
We know what the devil we know is going to do until after 2015, at least we have the bullet points....and we can be pretty sure that whichever devil we know gets elected in 2015 nothing much is going to change......because they've said so.
And we know that the Scotland Act will be implemented in full, so instead of having the choice to collect a varying element of our Income Tax, a choice no government has ever made for obvious reasons, we are now to be forced to use it..and obliged to pay HMRC for the privilege.
We know that, despite UK Government rhetoric like "Being part of the UK means Scotland will see its capital spending power increase by almost 13% in real terms in 2015-16, in reality Scotland's Capital spending has just been returned to 2010-2011 levels, and into the bargain, a quarter of a million£ of that, the infrastructure "increase", has to be borrowed at uncompetitive rates from the UK Treasury.
So effectively, we hand over all our taxes to the UK, and have to pay the UK from our block grant to collect the 10p they are no longer going to give us from our own money, and we also have limits set to any amount we can borrow, and are obliged, into the bargain, to borrow our own money from the UK Treasury at uncompetitive interest rates, so we get charged for collection, whether we vary the tax rate or not... and we get to pay through the nose to borrow what we are allowed to borrow from our own input to the UK Treasury.....and the cost of all this extra financing of the UK Treasury has to come out of the block grant....thus reducing the amount available for other priorities.
And at the same time, we are also, via our input into the UK Treasury, helping to finance the £57 billion being pumped into London and the South's infrastructure.
Methinks the Union "Better Together" Dividend accrues to London and the South, and not to Scotland, Wales and NI, with everywhere above the Wash simply unimportant regions of Mother England.
and now tell us the one about the three bears[lol] or even just the devil we don't know, oh no I remember now, that's where it goes a bit woolly and the "wait and see blah blah blah" answer gets wheeled out for every question [disgust]
and now tell us the one about the three bears[lol] or even just the devil we don't know, oh no I remember now, that's where it goes a bit woolly and the "wait and see blah blah blah" answer gets wheeled out for every question [disgust]
I couldn't remember why I had put you on ignore, which was why I checked the post to which I responded....and now I do remember..and I'll not be checking anything more you write....which will be easy because not many posters ever think your posts are worth quoting. And by the way, it isn't because you are pro-Union.....it is because you have nothing constructive to say on behalf of the Union and are unable to discuss anything, but you can sure troll for the Union.
Here's a chance to illustrate you actually can do thinking and can string enough sensible words together to equate to a decent post to further a discussion on the subject!
Questions follow.........
Care to tell me the definite policies of successive UK Governments from now into the distant future? Care to tell me how often UK Governments have produced and implemented budgets which actually managed to do what all the expensively remunerated pundits, who write the Government crap which is regurgitated by politicians, forecast they would do? Certainly not at any stage so far since the Coalition Government came into power has any stated target been reached.....so why want to continue with a Government of dullards who know little and care less about any area outside London and the Home Counties?
Why just accept the way the UK works, to benefit the Members of Parliament, the City of London and the South of England, rather than believe that a Scotland which has managed for the last few years to ameliorate the worst excesses of UK Government policies, within their restricted ability, is suddenly going to become more economically incompetent than successive UK Governments?
Vote for the Union because........................................... .er mm er mm.............er.....it might turnout ok
http://forum.caithness.org/clear.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1036710)
equusdriving
03-Jul-13, 23:18
I couldn't remember why I had put you on ignore, which was why I checked the post to which I responded....and now I do remember..and I'll not be checking anything more you write....which will be easy because not many posters ever think your posts are worth quoting. And by the way, it isn't because you are pro-Union.....it is because you have nothing constructive to say on behalf of the Union and are unable to discuss anything, but you can sure troll for the Union.
Here's a chance to illustrate you actually can do thinking and can string enough sensible words together to equate to a decent post to further a discussion on the subject!
Questions follow.........
Care to tell me the definite policies of successive UK Governments from now into the distant future? Care to tell me how often UK Governments have produced and implemented budgets which actually managed to do what all the expensively remunerated pundits, who write the Government crap which is regurgitated by politicians, forecast they would do? Certainly not at any stage so far since the Coalition Government came into power has any stated target been reached.....so why want to continue with a Government of dullards who know little and care less about any area outside London and the Home Counties?
Why just accept the way the UK works, to benefit the Members of Parliament, the City of London and the South of England, rather than believe that a Scotland which has managed for the last few years to ameliorate the worst excesses of UK Government policies, within their restricted ability, is suddenly going to become more economically incompetent than successive UK Governments?
Vote for the Union because........................................... .er mm er mm.............er.....it might turnout ok
http://forum.caithness.org/clear.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1036710)
yet again the people who want change, expecting the people who don't ,to justify not changing, but fail to give any valid reasons to back the change:confused and incidentally they all seem to struggle with how to use the ignore button :lol: or is it just that they are so vain they cant stand the thought of not reading comments possibly written about them, so they have to look
I am aware it is cloud cuckoo land and I have no expectations of achieving some sort of utopia. I offered simply a vision of a fair and equal society. However we can work towards a fairer society and make an impact on the spiralling inequalities we see in Britain today and have a more supportive society without raising taxes to 45pence in the pound.
In addition it is worth saying that "cuts" may not affect everyone but austerity should .... The Westminster government made a big deal about being in this together and then proceeded to make severe cuts in welfare and to bring in punitive measures for those on benefits, whilst giving tax cuts to millionaires and making plans for a significant pay rise for themselves and the Queen! They prioritise profit over people and so we spend a disgusting amount on the replacement for Trident whilst people are hVing to use foodbanks.
To have a fairer society we must look after the strong and healthy by encouaging economic growth, well paid sustainable jobs, access to education and trainjng for all, we must look after the weak and the vulnerable by doing exactly the same things and by having a fair supportive and well managed welfare system. We DO NOT have that now. The emphasis is on punishment, vilification and shame. Thats easy to change and would vost pennies to do so.
Small steps, Ducati. Things may not happen overnight but we will have the chance to change course and start the journey to a society which values people, its vast and best resource above all else. One path leads that way if we choose to take it. The other leads to more of the same as we have now. We decide at the ballot box.
I dont recognise the state you refer to. When did the training of employees suddenly became the governments job? Lots of people have well payed sustainable jobs. They don't just give them out, you have to demonstrate competence.
You talk about a fairer society and also an equal society? I don't get that. An equal society will never work. It would be a sort of ant-like communism, you can keep that, thanks.
If you don't get that the highly motivated and commited people come out ahead in life, then I can't really help. But I can tell you that not enough would change in an independent Scotland to satisfy you.
An ant like communism???? And there it is the broad dismissal. . None of what I say is about creating a society where people dont get rewarded for hard work and dedication. Or where governments provide everything.
Lets see if I can make it a bit clearer..... Fairness... Is about doing what is right. So if we look at a fair tax system we would have a tax system where people like me use PAYE and absolutely unable to dodge that tax. No avoidance possible we have to pay, we cant arrange ourselves a limited company so that we can avoid tax, we just pay what we have to pay with no dodgy deals. In a fair system that would apply to everyone including big corporations too. Tax would be payable and you cant set up convoluted processes to avoid tax.
A fair welfare system would be about assessing people for disability benefits using medical evidence, and real situations, not saying that someone is fit for work when they clearly arent. It would be about working with people on benefits in a real and respectful way to move them into work rather than setting targets for disallowances which are punitive in their intention and implementation. Equality is about making sure everyone has the opportunity to reach their potential... Through education for all, through quality training and apprenticeships and through creating an economic environment where employers can provide sustainable jobs.
If you look at looked after children, they are more likely to end up in jail, pregnant, or dead than children who are not in care. Something like 70% of them leave school with no qualifications. Now that cant be because they are all thick. It is because they need extra support which they are not currently getting. They dont have an equal chance of achieving when compared to other children. If no one has any commitment to you as a child, how do you learn to have commitment? If you never have praise or pride in an achievement how do you learn to achieve? Once again equality is about creating a society where all children can have the chance to achieve their potential. You think nothing would change enough to satisfy me? I would be satisfied with the OPPORTUNITY to change things I will be satisfied withgetting rid of the bedroom tax, closing tax loopholes. I will be happy to control our own finances so that we can begin to address the inequalities in our country. I would be satisfied with a YES vote because that is the beginning and I would be satisfied with the chance to change things. What happens next will be up to us.
equusdriving
05-Jul-13, 00:55
What happens next will be up to us.
No what happens next will be upto whoever is voted in's policies, so firstly, as is the situation now, if the party you vote for doesn't get in you get what government you are given, and even if you get the government you vote for, we all know policies and priorities can change and drift once they are elected, oh silly me I nearly forgot that Scottish politicians never lie, cheat, waste money, are never corrupt, never make bad decisions or mistakes, only do what the electorate want, will do what every voter wants, and always see little old ladies across the road:lol:
You are right its up to the party that is voted in but WE will vote for the party we want.
Today we have a government which Scotland did not vote for, implementing policies which the majority of Scottish MPS have voted against and yet STILL get implemented in Scotland and which the Scottish Electorate will not be able to vote out of office in 2015 unless the rest of the UK vote them out too. If thats your concern equus then you must know that in an Independent Scotland the government elected will be the one that the Scottish Electorate vote for. If they lie cheat, fail to fulfill their promises or otherwise disappoint then the Scottish Electorate will be able to vote them out of office and get a different government.
You suggest that I might not get the government I personally vote for, mistaking what I said to mean that I think I will get what I want. Thats ok though Equus because this is about Scotland getting what Scotland wants.....What the Scottish Electorate chooses. If it isnt what I personally want then I have to campaign or do what I can to change things but I would be satisfied that the people of Scotland... The "we" I spoke about, are influencing and controlling what happens in Government in a way we cannot do today.
That is actually what we are voting for in September 2014. We are voting for the right to choose the government WE ( thats Scotland again Equus) choose, A Scottish government with the needs and priorites of Scotland at its heart, a government that will implement the policies WE vote for and, if that government fails to do what it says WE can vote in a different government. The referendum is about the sort of democracy we want.
equusdriving
05-Jul-13, 08:34
Today we have a government which Scotland did not vote for,
No Some of Scotland have , so does large parts of the rest of the UK, and "tomorrow" (post Independence) so will large parts of Scotland still have, and what about the talk of staying in the EU, does Brussels have Scotland's needs and hopes at the forefront of its decision making,
BTW. I see that an Independent Scotland will probably lose the Royal mail and the subsidized remote deliveries it enjoys now :~(
and also can I ask, is your ignore button broken again? or have you turned it off again [lol]
Your point about the rest of the UK is well made but actually this is about a country, Scotland, not a county or a region. If you do not believe Scotland is a country in its own right then you wont think Scotland has a right to govern itself. And thats ok, you are entitled to that view and I would not dream of trying to change your view. Howver I think Scotland is a country and therefore has a right to its own government. At least in an independent Scotland the government we have will be one voted for by the majority of the Scotish voters, it would represent those voters and be accountable to those Scottish voters.
As for the EU, they will have the priorites of Europe to deal with and Scotland will be part of that. Independent, we will have more Scottish representation in the EU than we do today, and the representation we have, the negotiations we are involved in will be held by Scottish Ministers whos focus is what is best for Scotland. There is research which shows that small countries do well in the EU because they focus on issues which are important to them.
Aye, Equus the Royal Mail will crash and burn in an Independent Scotland. No one will get letters just like no one gets letters in Belgium, or Norway, or France or Denmark .... Oh, wait a minute... They do! We will continue to get letters in Scotland after Independence! The assets and liabilities of the Royal Mail if there are any after its been sold off by the Westminster, belong to Scotland as well and will be negotiated over during the period between the referendum and Independence. You know we might even be able to Improve the postal service.
You arent on ignore Equus your posts are much better lately!
equusdriving
05-Jul-13, 13:03
Aye, Equus the Royal Mail will crash and burn in an Independent Scotland No it wont crash and burn but it wont cover Scotland.
No one will get letters just like no one gets letters in Belgium, or Norway, or France or Denmark .... We will get letters, but we will pay through the nose with no subsidy
You know we might even be able to Improve the postal service. there is that word again[disgust]
your posts are much better lately! unfortunately yours are not!
No it wont crash and burn but it wont cover Scotland.
You are right - the royal mail will not cover Scotland - Scotland will have its own postal service which will cover Scotland. Why would a government introduce a postal service that doesnt cover the whole of the country? One thing that is certain - if the royal mail is privatised as this government want to do then how long do you think we will have postal deliveries in the far north then? You can guarantee that can you? You can be sure and certain can you? No of course you cant! The Government of an Independent Scotland will have a bigger incentive to ensure that rural areas continue to get a regular affordable post. Do you know why that is? Its about scale. In the UK those people living in rural scotland make up less than 10% of the UK electorate. Immaterial actually - a minority who can be largely ignored as not likely to influence the overall result of any election. In an Independent Scotland the population living in Rural Scotland makes up around 25% of the electorate. Far more difficult to write off, Far more important to an election result. Our opinions and priortiies will have to be given greater consideration than they are now.
We will get letters, but we will pay through the nose with no subsidy Again - you KNOW this do you? How? The Scottish Government may choose to subsidise the mail in Scotland and they may not. One things for sure though the private companies running the mail in the UK after privatisation will be wanting profits for their shareholders and wont be remotely interested in what time or what frequency Mrs Mackay in Freswick gets her letters from her sister in London. They will have NO incentive to take any notice at all of what you or I want as far as our postal deliveries are concerned. Their priority will be their profit. Bottom Line.
there is that word again Absolutely there is that word again - MIGHT. Might is used because the Scottish government havent published their plans for Royal Mail but they have said that Scotland will have its own postal service and they will add more detail in the white paper in the Autumn. There will also be other parties who will have a manifesto for an Independent Scotland if there is a YES vote including all the main stream parties. ITs more honest to say that it might be better, it might be a challenge it might be different, it might be subsidised than your post where you say that there will be a postal service which wont NOT cover the whole of Scotland and it will NOT be subsidised and we WILL have to pay through the nose. The fact is that we dont know what will happen to the royal mail if it is privatised and we may very well be better having a Scottish Mail service than a privatised UK service. It has yet to be decided. I dont know all the answers but I do know that if we who live in rural Scotland will have more influence in an Independent Scotland than in the UK. If however the cost of a stamp is what persuades you that staying in the Union is better then so be it. We all have different priorities.
unfortunately yours are not! You cant be nice can you.....? [lol]
OK. Lets try and get this back on track. The major influences in the housing market are availability and cost of mortgages.
After independence who are the lenders and what will the rates be?
The main three in Scotland are RBS,HBOS and National Australia Group. How will Independence affect the base rate in relation to the UK? And will these lenders be more or less willing to lend? (at the moment they are all extremely risk averse).
equusdriving
05-Jul-13, 18:50
You can guarantee that can you? You can be sure and certain can you? No of course you cant!
for someone who's vision of the future is based on "ifs maybes hopeful's " you have got a nerve asking for guarantees from me[disgust]
Again - you KNOW this do you? How? The Scottish Government may choose to subsidise the mail in Scotland and they may not.
and who do you think will end up paying through the nose either way, by taxes or even higher postal/courier charges?
.
If however the cost of a stamp is what persuades you that staying in the Union is better then so be it. We all have different priorities
surely you are not really that naive, but just in case you are, do you not realize how much even a small increase in postal/courier costs can affect all businesses, the NHS etc etc etc
You cant be nice can you.....? Sure I can, but I don't suffer fools gladly[lol]
Lol Equus, im not asking YOU. For anything at all. I am simply pointing out that you have no guarantees either despite your assertions about the lack of coverage and cost, you can offer no certainties in your version of the future either.
Once again for your benefit the important thing for me is the ability to vote for and have a government which better represents the Scottish electorate and the priorities of an independent Scotland.
Taxes may rise they may not but all your arguments seem to be around the Scotland is too poor, too wee and too stupid to even run a postal system, despite the infrastructure being in place and every other country in europe managing to have... Guess what.... A postal service! Not even the tory party are running with the wee poor and stupid arguments any more.
As for naivety... I know exactly the impact of postal costs, i managed a budget of over a quarter of a million pounds in a past life. What I said was that the cost of a stamp is not what will make me change my mind. If it is your priority then so be it. Its not mine. Thats all.
And finally lol yet another snidey wee dig.. You chase me round the board like a wee snappy dug.... You call me naive, a liar and a fool lol. Im sorry you dont like my posts sweetie but you could always hit the ignore button you know. ;)
OK. Lets try and get this back on track. The major influences in the housing market are availability and cost of mortgages.After independence who are the lenders and what will the rates be?The main three in Scotland are RBS,HBOS and National Australia Group. How will Independence affect the base rate in relation to the UK? And will these lenders be more or less willing to lend? (at the moment they are all extremely risk averse).Well its been a long time since I looked in detail at mortgages, neither having nor wanting one. It appears to be that those supporting a NO vote in the referendum say mortgages will rise in an Independent Scotland but wont in the UK. those supporting a YES vote say that there is no reason to think mortgages will rise. The NO campaign seem to base their assertions on the "fact" that Scotland will not have a AAA credit rating but then the UK doesnt have that now either. If we are part of a sterling loan our interest rates will be pegged to the Bank of Englands base rate and therefore is likely to be similar to what it is now. As for who offers mortgages in an Independent Scotland I would think those who already offer them will continue to offer them. Do you know different Ducati? Id really be interested if you are. The answer to whether banks will be more likely to lend in 2016 or 17 will depend on the economy, jobs and security surely. It appears the CRM think Scotland is a better bet than England - less arrears and less defaults Apparently but we dont know what the economy will be doing in Scotland or the UK in 3 years time.
Well its been a long time since I looked in detail at mortgages, neither having nor wanting one. It appears to be that those supporting a NO vote in the referendum say mortgages will rise in an Independent Scotland but wont in the UK. those supporting a YES vote say that there is no reason to think mortgages will rise. The NO campaign seem to base their assertions on the "fact" that Scotland will not have a AAA credit rating but then the UK doesnt have that now either. If we are part of a sterling loan our interest rates will be pegged to the Bank of Englands base rate and therefore is likely to be similar to what it is now. As for who offers mortgages in an Independent Scotland I would think those who already offer them will continue to offer them. Do you know different Ducati? Id really be interested if you are. The answer to whether banks will be more likely to lend in 2016 or 17 will depend on the economy, jobs and security surely. It appears the CRM think Scotland is a better bet than England - less arrears and less defaults Apparently but we dont know what the economy will be doing in Scotland or the UK in 3 years time.
Well, the mortgage rate and availablity is very important indead to anyone who owns their house whether thay have a mortgage or not. I mention the big 3 lenders because they are not only the main lenders based in Scotland but pretty much the only ones. Many secondary lenders in the UK don't lend in Scotland now, (apparently because of the differences in the legal system) this situation will not reverse under independence will it? New lenders may come to the fore but I imagine that the low population will not make this particularly viable. While an independent Scotland is tied to the UK finance system, the rates will remain the same (unless the Scottish Gov. choose to vary them). After the link is broken eventually, who knows?
So, as the mortgage rate and availability is the most important factor in the prosperity of any family that own their home, I imagine this is a sizable group that will be voting No, like I will.
equusdriving
06-Jul-13, 08:47
Taxes may rise they may not but all your arguments seem to be around the Scotland is too poor, too wee and too stupid
you really do need to make an appointment to have the chip surgically removed from your shoulder
i managed a budget of over a quarter of a million pounds in a past life. I can clearly see why it was in a former life with an attitude like that[lol]
Im sorry you dont like my posts sweetie on the contrary, I love your posts, as they are a great advert for voting NO to Independence, for anyone who is still undecided
but you could always hit the ignore button you know. what, so I too can pick and choose what questions I answer, under the guise of "its not working properly" No thanks! never have and never will
Lol lol equus you are so funny, no chip here, just a representation of your arguments ... Aren't you saying Scotland isnt big enough to have an economic postal service? Arent you saying that Scotland cant afford a postal service and you are ALWAYS saying that our politicians are stupid and useless. Where is the chip on my shoulder Equus?
whats the matter with my attitude. I am positive, hopeful and upbeat. You are always slagging me off for that! I try to be fair and interested in other peoples comments and respond in a polite and interested manner. I rarely call people names and and Im not sure why you are taking exception to my pointing out that I have experience of managing a budget in response to your saying I was being naive.
Im glad you like my posts Equus but once again I am not trying to convince anyone, I simply respond to posts with my opinions and ideas and understanding of the issues being discussed.
Thing is Equus, whenever we have a discussion it ends up with you making personal attacks and mean little digs. Its boring for me and everyone else I am sure. I'll stick you back on ignore if it continues until you raise another sensible point or two. If you really want to slag me off personally, then im up in Caithness in a month or so we can have a coffee and Ill show you im quite a pleasant sort of lassie really, if you could get all that out of the way then we might have some great debates and conversations which wouldnt consist of how stupid and naive you think I am, how you think Im a liar and a fool with a poor attitude! It would be much less boring then!
equusdriving
06-Jul-13, 12:47
Aren't you saying Scotland isnt big enough to have an economic postal service? Arent you saying that Scotland cant afford a postal service and you are ALWAYS saying that our politicians are stupid and useless. please show me where I have said any of these things, [disgust] or are you a complete and total LIAR?
whats the matter with my attitude. I am positive, hopeful and upbeat. You are always slagging me off for that! that has nothing to do with why " I slag you off"
I am not trying to convince anyone yeah right [lol]
I'll stick you back on ignore if it continues until you raise another sensible point or two. please do, although I still don't know how you can tell if a point is sensible or not if you have me on ignore, oh I forgot you have a different version of the ignore button to everyone else [lol]
If you think I am a liar then that is your perogative. I interpreted your comments on this and other threads as I see them. if thats wrong then so be it. If I put you on ignore then I can see when you make a point worth responding to because someone else will quote you. Now, you seem to have a personal dislike of me and a need to personally insult me but at least if you are calling me names you aren t picking on someone who might be upset. I dont care what you think about me other than the fact that it is a bit boring for other posters. Im a bit baffled as to why you have such a go at me personally rather than responding sensibly to my political points but I have offered to meet up and make friends and really I cant do any more. I will not respond to your petty name calling and insults on this thread but I am happy to address your issues by PM. Much to the relief of everyone else I am sure. Have a nice day equus :)
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