View Full Version : New licensing laws.
How will the new Euro style licensing laws for pubs and clubs affect us?
~~Tides~~
26-Jan-05, 18:09
I don't know why they keep doing things like this, We are not Europe!.
One minute they are tryin to have smaller opening hours then they increase them. I am so confused. :confused
I don't know why they keep doing things like this, We are not Europe!.
One minute they are tryin to have smaller opening hours then they increase them. I am so confused. :confused
Can you name one instance of recommendations to have pub opening hours reduced?
~~Tides~~
26-Jan-05, 18:51
I ment they were taking about reducing the hours in the Parliament and then out of the blue the decide to increase them.
I ment they were taking about reducing the hours in the Parliament and then out of the blue the decide to increase them.
Again, can you give any specifics like which MPs and when the proposals to reduce the hours were made?
As far as I understand, the last reduction of hours put before parliament was in 1916.
Mr P Cannop
26-Jan-05, 19:03
does any one watch the house of commons ??
does any one watch the house of commons ??
I think they have some policemen outside to make sure nobody nicks it.
Mr P Cannop
26-Jan-05, 19:52
does any one watch the house of commons ??
i mean on tv or 508 on sky tv ??
[quote="~~Tides~~"]I don't know why they keep doing things like this, We are not Europe!.
Are we not part of the E.E.C ?
People never seem to be happy on here .
Not enough shops, then they moan when some want to come to the town .
Now they want to open pubs longer and people moan .
What harm will it be to you if the pubs open later or all night ooo what a shock to your life .
~~Tides~~
26-Jan-05, 22:50
Are we not part of the E.E.C ?
Yes, ecconomicaly. But we are a different culture.
I thought they wanted to reduce it there was a disscussion on News Night on something and I was vaguely listening to it. Sorry for not being perfect.
Sorry not really aimed at you Tides .
Just would be nice to look on the messageboard once and find some one happy about something new.
How nice would it be to come on and find
New shops coming to wick
Comments : Wow thats great what we need it will bring jobs and much neaded products and range to the area .
Yes that is good how nice it will be .
New licencing laws
That will be good less binge drinking and rushing about getting out on time.
And so on
My mini rant over :)
I don't think it will make much differance, The Grove Lounge opens at 8am and after hours goes on anyway, but these people tend to be largely well behaved drunks that the licensees can trust. All the riff raff just don't get an option to have a drink ats.
I think we should have the same opening hours as europe, however I also think people who are over the eight should not be served. And it is a good idea that all pubs that do chose to open 24/7 should pay for extra policing - though if they follow the rule not to serve drink to those already well drunk, the extra police should not be needed. Installing cameras and banning drinking on the street except for street parties would also help.
Also any landlord who allows drugs to be used or dealt in his or her premises should be heavily fined and even loose his or her licence.
gravedigga
27-Jan-05, 17:23
Also any landlord who allows drugs to be used or dealt in his or her premises should be heavily fined and even loose his or her licence.
Well that's not very fair as people who are on drugs can be mistaken for being drunk and if a landlord doesn't know they're under the influence of drugs how can they stop them?? It wouldn't be fair on a landlord to lose his/her license if they don't know.
And anyway i know people who are far nicer when on drugs than drink, so each to their own as long as they're not bothering me.
It is worth mentioning that it is illegal whilst on licensed premises to be drunk, quarrelsome, lewd, disorderly, riotous and asleep.
So a licensee does not necessarily have to be an expert in drunkeness or drugs to have a reason to refuse to serve anyone.
gravedigga
27-Jan-05, 17:33
I didn't know it was illegal for someone to be asleep on licensed premises, oh well learn something new everyday. :eek:
Dare say half the clientele of Hagars couldo been up on charges for that though, lol
thebigman
27-Jan-05, 20:02
Changes will make little or no difference as it'll still be up to the Licensing Board who opens when.
The Big Man
What's the point in the new laws then?
Mr P Cannop
27-Jan-05, 22:16
lets have some votes ??
You mean a poll? What will be the question and options?
Mr P Cannop
27-Jan-05, 23:09
thats up to you or the users on the forum ??
i would rather be a european than an American.
some people would have become the 51st state.
Licensing law is not the problem, it's the people who cannot contol their drinking habits.
Lets not beat about the bush, and i don't mean GW
Some people have prejudices about europe going back to the war.
Lets join the rest of the world which lives in the twentieth century and move on from these dated perseptions of people who share the same blood as us.
Does anyone know where in Caithness the new laws will apply?
Yes, ecconomicaly. But we are a different culture.
Can you expalin what you mean by that? Do you consider all "other" members of the EC to have the same "culture"?
lassieinfife
21-Nov-05, 10:08
When the drinking hours were extended in Scotland the last time all the comments were "oh good that will stop the binge drinking" but it has not .... have you seen some of the people coming out of pubs and clubs etc?. There will always be a section of drinkers who will binge drink no matter how long the pubs and clubs are open, it certainly wont be fun for the folk who live near pubs and clubs:rolleyes:
porshiepoo
21-Nov-05, 10:21
This is a toughie!
More opening times shouldn't make a difference to the binge drinking because alchohol is available at places other than pubs if someone needs it that bad, and drinking in a pub doesn't have to mean drinking alchohol.
Each individual person should be responsible enough to know when to stop.
There may be an increase overall in the length of time people spend drinking in pubs, I don't know, but there'll also be an increase of those that go to a pub purely to socialise and have a glass of coke.
I personally don't touch alcohol at all, ever, and I don't really go to pubs very often, maybe 2-3 times a year. When I do go I only drink coke or water (which hubby finds most embarrassing) but I must admit it can be quite hard to be in a pub thats full of people half cut and I'm one of the very very few sober ones.
Is it not only england and wales who are getting the 24 hour drinking laws ?
to be honest, its a bit pointless. as of March 26th 2006 most pubs will be so empty, it wouldn't be worth keeping the place open for the whole day and night.
Having the pub open all night will only encourage home dinkers and alcoholics to drink more. think about it, if you run out of alcohol at 3am, you go to bed, if the pub is open... you could go buy another bottle or go have a drink. its a bad move
also, getting staff to work in a pub at that time of night would be a no go!
i work in a pub and its hard enough dragging in people through the week, nevermind at silly times of the morning!
keep it the way it is. i can't see any business up here taking advantage of it
to be honest, its a bit pointless. as of March 26th 2006 most pubs will be so empty, it wouldn't be worth keeping the place open for the whole day and night. I assume you're talking about the smoking ban here...
Don't be so sure. I was in Dublin for a week in the summer and the pubs were packed to the gunwales. And it's great to get home and not have your clothes stinking of stale fag smoke. Even hangovers are more benign. People will simply get used to it. Roll on the ban.
porshiepoo
21-Nov-05, 14:19
to be honest, its a bit pointless. as of March 26th 2006 most pubs will be so empty, it wouldn't be worth keeping the place open for the whole day and night.
Having the pub open all night will only encourage home dinkers and alcoholics to drink more. think about it, if you run out of alcohol at 3am, you go to bed, if the pub is open... you could go buy another bottle or go have a drink. its a bad move
also, getting staff to work in a pub at that time of night would be a no go!
i work in a pub and its hard enough dragging in people through the week, nevermind at silly times of the morning!
keep it the way it is. i can't see any business up here taking advantage of it
I get the rough idea of what you're saying there Jeid, but you actually contradict yourself!
You say that people will saty away from pubs because of a smoking ban but then you say that if someones runs out of drink, they'll go to the pub!
I personally don't think a smoking ban will affect people too much. If smokers are going to restrict themselves to that extent then soon enough they're going to have nowhere that they can go.
It does seem a bit ironic though doesn't it. Ban smoking but increase drinking!
An alcoholic will get drink no matter what, I dare say theres no hope of them actually running out of drink anyway, whether the pubs are open or not.
And I don't necessarily think it will encourage home drinkers to drink more either, they're called home drinkers for a reason!
The thing is, a pub first and foremost is supposed to be a social place, people don't have to drink more just because they're open more. There is such a thing as non alcoholic beer, or coke lemonade etc. It doesn't have to mean more beer!
Perhaps it's the goverments way of dealing with the increase in car fumes! People are more likely to drink and drive, therefore more likely to get banned therefore decrease in motor fumes
I'm sure the goverment have taken into account the possible increase in innocent fatalities in that scenario, but have convinced themselves thats natures selection. ;)
Naefearjustbeer
21-Nov-05, 14:36
I dont think that Scotland is getting the option for 24 hour drinking I think they are only planning on extending the hours that a pub can ask to open for, So Skinandis might ask for an extra hour but it doesnt mean they will get it. They might not even want it. After all everyone is drunk and I know that my rate of consumtion slows down later on in the evening and into the wee sma hours. Pub owners will look at staffing levels and wages and then look at the takings for the last hour of the night to decide if they wants to try to extend it. I know if I worked behind a bar I wouldna want to have another hour serving before the clean up starts.
It seems like i did, but i was talking in the grand scale of things, which i clearly didn't point out. It doesn't take too much to work out really.
Anyway, the smoking ban will reduce the custom base that we currently have in the pub. a lot of people have a drink and a smoke. Like people have a cup of coffee or tea and a chat. Its a pairing of things and a habit thats hard to break. Having a pint with no cigarette is gonna be difficult for most people to break.
Look at Ireland for example. Lots of pubs have closed down since the smoking ban was introduced a few years ago. Business is a lot lower than it used to be. The people are coming back... but very slowly. I think the smoking ban has been in place for about 2-3 years over there now. Can a lot of the pubs up here survive if they lose their custom base? I fully doubt it. Unless your offering something that the others ain't, its going to be very difficult.
I read an article in the paper not too long ago. It was about a man down in Nairn i believe. He owned a pub and as an experiment he banned smoking from his pub for a month. Within two months the place was closed down because the custom never came back. The place was empty pretty much always empty during the ban and it failed to recover.
I believe there are about eighteen pubs in Thurso, excluding the nightclub. How many do you expect to still be around in three years time? We'll lose a few i reckon.
I'm not a smoker, but i do see both sides of the arguement. The non-smokers think the pubs will be a lot better without all the smoke etc. What their failing to realise is that half the people they are sitting joking with are smokers and most of them are unlikely to be there when the ban comes into place. The smokers don't think they'll be in the pubs as much as they are now. Fair do's. If I was a smoker, I wouldn't drink in a place where i couldn't smoke.
Pubs should of been issued with a minimum standard of extraction order. Good ventilation makes all the difference. Clean air in, dirty air out.
If anything, we should be banning drinking, not banning smoking in public places.
Back on topic... Alcoholics run out of drink, believe me, i see it often enough.
Home drinkers are the ones that really annoy me. They look down on people who go to the pub as people with 'drinking problems' or 'plonkies', yet they sit in the house with the tv and their slippers on watching some crap tv drinking several bottles of wine a week. Excuse me, but I think its THEM that has the drink problems!! People drink more at home because its cheaper. If your having a party at home and you run out of drink(and this always happens when I go to parties) then the party may as well be over. If the pub is open, if they were open 24hours, then they have an unstoppable supply of drink.
Your right, the pub is a social place, in Caithness, supermarkets are social places!!! People won't go to the pub at three in the morning to drink Diet Pepsi!
I dont think that Scotland is getting the option for 24 hour drinking I think they are only planning on extending the hours that a pub can ask to open for, So Skinandis might ask for an extra hour but it doesnt mean they will get it. They might not even want it. After all everyone is drunk and I know that my rate of consumtion slows down later on in the evening and into the wee sma hours. Pub owners will look at staffing levels and wages and then look at the takings for the last hour of the night to decide if they wants to try to extend it. I know if I worked behind a bar I wouldna want to have another hour serving before the clean up starts.
As far as I know, Skinandi's don't want it. I'm 100% certain the staff wouldn't either.
Clean up starts when people are still in the pub. Lots of people seem to think we wait around for them to leave. When we're shouting to leave, its mainly because we're ready to go home and your drinking time is up!
Naefearjustbeer
21-Nov-05, 15:52
Yeh I know I have been tha last customer in Skinandis on more than one occaision, usually due to verbally abusing frantic at the end of the night. The staff are keen to get away. probally so they can have a quick dram themselves bofore going home to get a kip.
A quick dram? haha.... i never left there until half four the other night. its usually a quick few drams and then a party at someone's house! First time i've been in there in a long time, hasn't changed, its still boring!
Alcoholics run out of drink, believe me, i see it often enough.
I'm sure its money they run out of and not the drink.
dragonfly
21-Nov-05, 16:55
they sit in the house with the tv and their slippers on watching some crap tv drinking several bottles of wine a week
Hey Jeid, you have me to a tee!! except I no longer have bottles, it boxes now :p
Seriously though I don't think the hours need to be extended but would say that a more responsible attitude needs to be taken about selling drink to those already well intoxicated
I personally would welcome a lengthening on the drinking hours, especially for pubs, closing at 1AM is no use, particularly if you've been working until 9 or 10.
And you're right Jeid, who in their right mind is going to go to a pub at 3 AM in the morning and have a soft drink? Get back to reality. We all go to the pub to drink alcohol and socialise and that would be a welcomed move if it was possible to do it up until the likes of 4 AM maximum. There's no need to extend opening hours beyond that time (or even that late) - that does just encourage binge drinking.
On another note, when sitting in the house 'pre-loading' (thats drinking in the house before you go out according to Glasgow City Council) and it gets to 11 PM everyone wants to leave as we know we've only got a few hours in the pub....and that's when the crack is usually good. It would be nice to sit in the house until 1 AM and then go out.
However, if I worked in Skinandi's, I certainly wouldn't be prepared to work for an additional hour - hour and a half.
porshiepoo
21-Nov-05, 16:59
I'm not a smoker, but i do see both sides of the arguement. The non-smokers think the pubs will be a lot better without all the smoke etc. What their failing to realise is that half the people they are sitting joking with are smokers and most of them are unlikely to be there when the ban comes into place. The smokers don't think they'll be in the pubs as much as they are now. Fair do's. If I was a smoker, I wouldn't drink in a place where i couldn't smoke.
What the answer though? As a non smoker I prefer to be in a place that isn't full of second hand smoke, but as my husband smokes I also know it would be difficult if he couldn't smoke in public places.
The airports are brilliant for this because they have that room that smokers can go in where the room is ventilated all the time, so we non smokers don't get poisoned too.
Pubs should of been issued with a minimum standard of extraction order. Good ventilation makes all the difference. Clean air in, dirty air out.
If anything, we should be banning drinking, not banning smoking in public places.
Why? Unless drinkersget behind a vehicle of a car they're only endangering their own lives. Smokers endanger everyones lives!
Back on topic... Alcoholics run out of drink, believe me, i see it often enough.
The same as druggies run out of drugs. They'll get them somehow, whatever time of day it is.
Home drinkers are the ones that really annoy me. They look down on people who go to the pub as people with 'drinking problems' or 'plonkies', yet they sit in the house with the tv and their slippers on watching some crap tv drinking several bottles of wine a week. Excuse me, but I think its THEM that has the drink problems!! People drink more at home because its cheaper. If your having a party at home and you run out of drink(and this always happens when I go to parties) then the party may as well be over. If the pub is open, if they were open 24hours, then they have an unstoppable supply of drink.
I think it's hard to generalise like that. No matter what the habit of the drinker whether it be at home or in the pub, they all have problems.
Yes alcohol would be more accessible if the hours increased but surely we should be saying that it's the individual persons choice as to whether they use them and what they drink, not down to the fact that a pubs open.
When it comes to smokers, the onus is on the smoker to give up not the manufacturers to stop making them or the shops to stop selling them.
People who need to drink or like to drink will drink no matter what. Increasing the opening hours won't necessarily exaccerbate that.
The families of drinkers are the ones I sympathise with. For those drinkers that generally only drink in pubs, it must be a godsend to families when they know that at certain times of the day there are no pubs open for the drinker to be in. Any increase in opening hours will take that away from the families.
Your right, the pub is a social place, in Caithness, supermarkets are social places!!! People won't go to the pub at three in the morning to drink Diet Pepsi!
[/QUOTE]
I would! :)
Got it! Here's the article I was looking for earlier: Deja vu for smoke-free Ireland (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4385512.stm)
Note that when they refer to "Britain" they aren't including Scotland -- our legislation is pretty similar to Ireland's.
I was in the pub in Dublin every night for a week in the summer (no surprise there?), and the article above summarises what I experienced quite nicely. Believe it or not, most of the smokers I talked to actually supported the ban! People just nip outside for a fag every now and then, and a new culture has grown up outside the pubs. Some people actually seem to prefer standing outside getting the craic, and I'm told many go out just to chat up their fellow smokers. I'm not sure how well that would work in the middle of the Caithness winter, mind!
Having said all that, it's pretty unfair to compare pubs in Wick or Thurso with those in Dublin's Temple Bar. As Jeid points out, the former have a limited and somewhat static client-base, whilst the latter attract people from the whole of Dublin and indeed from all over the world.
Not so long ago, I thought a smoking ban in Scottish pubs would be unworkable, but my last two trips to Ireland have shown that it's not as big an issue as you might think. Personally, I'll be more likely to go to the pub when they're all non-smoking. But it's clear that many smokers here will have very different thoughts.
Well, we'll see what happens in four months' time...
porshiepoo
21-Nov-05, 18:17
I don't think the problem people have is actually to do with not being able to have a fag inside. It's more to do with being told they can't I think.
Many smokers are more than happy to have a fag outside when they visit non smoking friends etc but when people are told you can't smoke in what is classed as a public place, then they feel it's an infringement of their rights and get all uppity.
I bet they wouldn't refuse to go to airports if they banned it completely.
Long haul flights haven't suffered, and you can't smoke on those now. Or short haul. People aren't saying 'Right I refuse to go on holiday'. They'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face if they did.
In fact maybe pubs would be even more popular if they banned smoking. I know quite a few people who avoid these places cos it's awful being stuck in a room full of cigarette smoke. Maybe those people would be more inclined to go to pubs etc if the smokers all had to nip outside for a fag.
Same goes for asthmatics. Theres plenty of them that have to avoid pubs for the same reason. Wouldn't it be nice if they could have the enjoyment of going to a pub knowing they'll be able to breath?
For me, I'd say ban smoking in all public places.
Yes, ecconomicaly. But we are a different culture.
.
Boy have I got news for you, Tides. Now I don't want to shock you with this or ruin any homogenized European fanatasy you might entertain, but every single country of the european union, and even within the countries, the cultures are varied. Not only the UK, or Scotland have their own identity.
Look at Ireland for example. Lots of pubs have closed down since the smoking ban was introduced a few years ago. Business is a lot lower than it used to be. The people are coming back... but very slowly. I think the smoking ban has been in place for about 2-3 years over there now. Can a lot of the pubs up here survive if they lose their custom base? I fully doubt it. Unless your offering something that the others ain't, its going to be very difficult.
I read an article in the paper not too long ago. It was about a man down in Nairn i believe. He owned a pub and as an experiment he banned smoking from his pub for a month. Within two months the place was closed down because the custom never came back. The place was empty pretty much always empty during the ban and it failed to recover.
Pubs should of been issued with a minimum standard of extraction order. Good ventilation makes all the difference. Clean air in, dirty air out.
Jeid, I don't seem to be reading the same reports that you have. From what I have read and heard on radio ( just the other day BBC radio 4 had a very interestng report on his matter). In Ireland inicially there was a dip in cutome of pubs, bars, etc. This has recovered practially to pre-ban levels, from what I have read and heard on radio.
I had heard of one bar+restaurant that ran a trail of banning smoking in the restaurant part of the business. They owners of the place decided on the trail after going to Dublin to acess how establishments were doing wth the ban, and were positively impressed. The trail ran for 2 months after which they reverted to allow smoking because they had suffered a 25% loss in custome. I think that we have to be speaking of the same establishment, though from what I know the establishment continues open and has not shut down. I think that his loss is natural when you consider that they were the only place enforcing a ban.If the playng field is level and everyone is obliged to enforce a ban then you will not have the choice of going next door where they allow you to smoke indoors.
All pubs in this country (or at least in England) already do have very stringent extraction orders, especially to protect their employees.
In my opinion, binge drinking has everything to do with he cultural atitude to alcohol and nothing to do with the availibility of alcoholic beverages.
Look at South European countries, where any establishment with a license can sell alcohol during its authorized opening hours. That means supermarkets can sell a bottle of wine on Sunday morning and clubs open to 06:00 am will serve you till that hour. That doesn't mean their people are binge drinking 24 ours a day, nore that they have more problems with cronic or social alcoholics. I have seen many more drunks throwing up on street corners or stumbling home here than I have ever seen in south european countries. They way alcohol is consumed and enjoyed is completely different in these countries. Sometimes it feels like people go out for a drink here (meaning UK),solely for the purpose of getting completely plastered.
You're absolutely right _Ju_.
Er, that's it. I have nothing to add to your analysis -- for once.
But I choose to live in Scotland, partly because I like pubs and because I like drinking too much every now and then without being socially-damned. I can be the anti-binge-drinking politician's worse nightmare when I put my mind to it. Anyone fancy going out on a bender tonight? :D
You're absolutely right _Ju_.
Er, that's it. I have nothing to add to your analysis -- for once.
But I choose to live in Scotland, partly because I like pubs and because I like drinking too much every now and then without being socially-damned. I can be the anti-binge-drinking politician's worse nightmare when I put my mind to it. Anyone fancy going out on a bender tonight? :D
Dr Szin, I also love a drink, especially a good red wine. And in no way am I sugesting we don't also have our fair share of drunken episodes, though generally we don't go out to get plastered.
For example, a typical night on the tiles in Portugal for a 20 to 50 year old would start with a dinner ( home or restaurant) with wine in the late evening ( finishing around 22:00), followed by a coffee and/or apperitive in a cafe, pub or bar and a club from about 12:30 am till 03:00. The drinks will just flow along the night as you feel you want one, for thirst and for savouring. It's just a different wayof drinking, I guess.
By the way, DrSzin, the a Scott with three sheets to the wind can be alot of fun. You (Scots) are very friendly and funny when tipsy, though slightly noisey.
A Saxon (as in England) is not. They tend to make agressive and destructive drunks.
PS: This doesn't mean that every English person who is tipsy is agressive, nore that every Scot is not. It is just a generalization with limitations
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