View Full Version : Lazybones - all of us!!!!
Apparently several tory MPs have said that British workers are the laziest in the world. Despite working some of the longest hours in Europe the productivity of British workers isnt keeping up with China, South Korea and Hong Kong.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051
It is interesting that the authors of the book in which these assertations appear is written by five Conservative MPs Elizabeth Truss and Dominic Raab,Priti Patel, Chris Skidmore and Kwasi Kwarteng.... the BBC describes them as influential. They are clearly highly intelligent, four out of the five went to Oxford and they are professional people. This makes me wonder why they have said such a stupid and insulting thing. I wonder if they have had to work three jobs to keep food on the table or work alternate shifts to their husband or wife just to pay the mortgage? I am sure that they would say they have had to work very hard in their lives so why do they think others are not doing the same? Surely they cant be suggesting that Britain should have the kind of sweatshops or industrial environments of China?
Productivity actually rose significantly up to 2007 and whilst it is lagging behind some of the G7 nations, the people that understand these things suggest this is down to lack of growth and economic investment not the lazy british worker.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article13445.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8776319/UK-worker-productivity-lags-worlds-wealthiest-nations.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16082186
John Little
18-Aug-12, 10:04
It's a joke so stupid that it's almost obscene.
Back in the 80s the Tories, or more accurately, their right wing, decided that they did not need to bother dealing with people any more than they had to. People were inconvenient as a method of generating cash - they went on strike and wanted better lives - which meant that they wanted a bigger slice of pie.
That, of course, is what being in a Social Democracy is about. The government, of the People, by the People and for the People is supposed to oversee a regime where there are sufficient jobs and a reasonable return for labour.
But the herd was getting restless in the 80s, using their withdrawal of labour to cause trouble and profits to go down.
Manufacturing industry was over-manned, incredibly under-invested, inefficient and not very competitive.
So instead of reforming it, they decided to get rid of it.
The revolting herd would be dependent on the state so would stop bellowing and stampeding.
So instead of investing in Britain, these monetarists decided to invest abroad instead and use the money market to generate the national income. At the same time they deregulated the markets to make the flow of capital easier - and it worked for a while.
Didn't it?
Now it's discredited but they still keep at their anti-people policies, like Haig at the Somme, and drumming the message all the time that it's our fault because we do not work hard enough.
Our national debt, including the loss making banks is £2311.6 billion
British companies at this time have £1048.7 Billion invested abroad.
The UK government owns $421.6 billion of US national debt.
And, of course, our tax system has made for a rather unequal balance of wealth within the UK with 10% of the population owning 50% of income.
All produced by Tory policies, blindly replicated by Tony Blair, the man who took Labour to the right.
I would suggest what these bright young Tories can do with their book - but it would not be polite.
Bill Fernie
18-Aug-12, 10:25
Without having read their book it is difficult to comment on the details.
However the item on the BBC web site would appear to me to be a very superficial approach to the subject of work. To be clear in what you are writing about and what to focus on can make al the difference to whether you are going to come up with some ideas of substance or merely reiterate with literary skill the prejudices that are easy to promulgate but hard to substantiate. Bare comparisons with other countries with different social set ups, political circumstances, history and economic realities need to be treated with caution.
If the authors truly considered the subject then we can go through their ideas and I would think refute many if they are based on the sole premise that workers are idle. All workers usually want incentives whether they ear a high or low amount and depending on working conditions to achieve a good standard of living. However for now I will not pursue that side of the argument. I think if we want to look at this subject and I wish the authors of this book had looked at wider reasons for why people work and how it affects their lives and wider society.
If their approach is to solve our competitiveness with countries like Hong Kong, Singapore, China, Japan etc then I think in the long run there are other areas than just attacking idleness that might prove more productive. I will refer to one area that I think has long afflicted our country and has lead to many of the detrimental affects that those authors refer to. Is is Inequality. The authors might well have looked at the subject of lazy workers if they took a different approach and then might have come up with starkly different conclusions and possible just maybe some answers. I would refer them and anyone interested in Inequality and how it affects the economy, health of people etc to a book called "Unhealthy Societies" - The Afflictions of Inequality by Richard G Wilkinson. Richard Wilkinson was a senior research fellow at the Trafford Centre for medical research, University of Sussex and published the book in 1996. For anyone who wants to read it the number is ISBN 0-415-09235-3 for the paperback edition.
The main thrust of the book is on health problems caused by inequalities but it has huge implications for other areas such as work and the economy. The book concentrates on how income distribution affects a variety of health problems across the income brackets in different countries. Among developed countries it is not the richest societies that have the best health, but those with the smallest income differences between rich and poor. The book pursues that theme but touches on many other aspect and I think viewing idleness would come within that. The theory is that smaller income differences increase life expectancy. He proves it with wealth of data. The book provides explanations as to why unequal societies have many problems and how they might be solved.
I suspect equalising incomes and access to the good things in our society would not be top of the list for the authors of this latest attack on the poor in our society. I would suggest that idleness as they refer to it is but one aspect of a greater problem that they need to turn their attention to if they and we are to live in a better country. The contract between the material success and social failure of modern societies marks an imbalance which needs more attention. The relationship between health and equality suggests that important social needs will go unmet without larger measure of social and distributive justice. More equality might bring stronger community life and less of the corrosive effects of inequality.
Inequality is one of the root causes of bad health, increasing crime weakening our social fabric. Idleness I would suggest is strongly implicated in all this but our interpretation will be coloured by our views on inequality in my view.
I would say, as we have absolutely no chance of competing with the far east in manufacturing, so there is no point in trying, we have and should seek alternatives to heavy industry. Very sensible if you ask me. And it is a very old phenomenon, think of the Motorcycle industry, textiles, steal, shipbuilding etc. And yes, not helped at all by the British Worker.
I remember driving past Ford at Halewood every day, past the picket lines,and noticing the workers car parks ull of Datsuns :eek:
Having not read the report it's difficult to tell if this is just media spin and twist on a very small part of the report. There is a productivity issue in the British workplace and the Unions have helped stifle things for years. Also there is this bitter resentment mentality that some Brits have against anybody with more apparent wealth than themselves which manifests itself in a "why should I work any harder" approach. As already pointed out, we cannot compare to the likes of China etc. as the approach is completely different, and they do consider us lazy.
They want to look at their own workforce before criticising others. Aren't MP's the one's that have 5 months holiday per annum, have had their salary doubled in the last 10 years, have an expenses account with a bottomless pit and sit on their backsides and sometimes fall asleep when supposed to be "working".
Having worked most of my life doing 7 days a week, 12 hours a day and hardly seeing my Family I am hurt by this accusation from people who have had a cushy life thanks to a quirk of parenthood!
C3...........[disgust]
John Little
18-Aug-12, 12:57
I would say, as we have absolutely no chance of competing with the far east in manufacturing, so there is no point in trying, we have and should seek alternatives to heavy industry. Very sensible if you ask me. And it is a very old phenomenon, think of the Motorcycle industry, textiles, steal, shipbuilding etc. And yes, not helped at all by the British Worker.
I remember driving past Ford at Halewood every day, past the picket lines,and noticing the workers car parks ull of Datsuns :eek:
The Germans seem to manage it.
Their average working hours are less than ours but their productivity is higher.
But of course they pay better, negotiate with their unions, have much less pay inequality and invest in their own industries instead of China.
And where are all these lazy swine anyway?
I've knocked about a few years now and have worked in a number of places but I do not believe I have ever met one of these tabloid pigs who don't want to do their jobs.
Anyone else ever met anyone like that?
In fact, thinking about it, they must be named and shamed so that we can all go round and burn their houses down for no-good shirkers who let all of us down.
Where's my pitchfork?
Send for Riggerboy!
tonkatojo
18-Aug-12, 13:16
Come on John, you cannot explain what hurts for a tory voter to hear, but I have some spare water contaminated petrol if needed, good ole Riggerboy might come out of retirement (I presume he's retired as he's rarely here LOL).
The Germans seem to manage it.
Their average working hours are less than ours but their productivity is higher.
But of course they pay better, negotiate with their unions, have much less pay inequality and invest in their own industries instead of China.
And where are all these lazy swine anyway?
I've knocked about a few years now and have worked in a number of places but I do not believe I have ever met one of these tabloid pigs who don't want to do their jobs.
Anyone else ever met anyone like that?
In fact, thinking about it, they must be named and shamed so that we can all go round and burn their houses down for no-good shirkers who let all of us down.
Where's my pitchfork?
Send for Riggerboy!
I would say, as we have absolutely no chance of competing with the far east in manufacturing, so there is no point in trying, we have and should seek alternatives to heavy industry. Very sensible if you ask me. And it is a very old [COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]phenomenon, think of the Motorcycle industry, textiles, steal, shipbuilding etc. And yes, not helped at all by the British Worker.
How do you explain the presence of the Triumph motorcycle factory and various car plants? I belive there's even one at Halewood.
Speaking personally, I'd like to see an end to your "steal" industry.
I would say, as we have absolutely no chance of competing with the far east in manufacturing, so there is no point in trying, we have and should seek alternatives to heavy industry. Very sensible if you ask me. And it is a very old phenomenon, think of the Motorcycle industry, textiles, steal, shipbuilding etc. And yes, not helped at all by the British Worker.
I remember driving past Ford at Halewood every day, past the picket lines,and noticing the workers car parks ull of Datsuns :eek:
How dare you criticise the Halewood workers sir! My father worked non stop there in the 70's making beds for the nightshift!
How dare you criticise the Halewood workers sir! My father worked non stop there in the 70's making beds for the nightshift!
[lol][lol][lol]
With the exception of Triumph Motorcycles, which were re-born in a different era, and after several fails, and they make a few thousand bikes a year compared to their Japanese rivals that make a few million. All the car plants are foreign owned after the total failure of any British firm to compete in a global market. It's not just us by the way. All the French car firms are going bust too.
Halewood- yes, very succesful, owned by a certain Indian gentleman that also owns most of what is left of British Steel. That is the sort of joined up manufacturing that was not possible when the Unions ruled the roost
I would say, as we have absolutely no chance of competing with the far east in manufacturing, so there is no point in trying, we have and should seek alternatives to heavy industry. Very sensible if you ask me. And it is a very old phenomenon, think of the Motorcycle industry, textiles, steal, shipbuilding etc. And yes, not helped at all by the British Worker.
I remember driving past Ford at Halewood every day, past the picket lines,and noticing the workers car parks ull of Datsuns :eek:
With the exception of Triumph Motorcycles, which were re-born in a different era, and after several fails, and they make a few thousand bikes a year compared to their Japanese rivals that make a few million. All the car plants are foreign owned after the total failure of any British firm to compete in a global market. It's not just us by the way. All the French car firms are going bust too.
Halewood- yes, very succesful, owned by a certain Indian gentleman that also owns most of what is left of British Steel. That is the sort of joined up manufacturing that was not possible when the Unions ruled the roost
I think you're expressing two different points of view there.
I think you're expressing two different points of view there.
Oh? I thought we were talking about a particular point in time when the Unions made it impossible to continue to manufacture. Now the Unions don't have the power to disrupt as they once had, foreign investment is bringing it back. In a limited way.
I've been luck enough to witness first hand work in heavy industries across the UK and beyond.
What I've seen is that the British worker is not at all lazy. Yes, they demand their tea breaks and such, but, when the job's on, they get on and get it done to a very high standard.
The Germans work hard, with an eye for detail and a pride in achievement, much like in Britain. The difference in Germany is that the pride is supported by "the system", where a craftsman is respected as a professional. A boilersuit is not the sign of failure.
The Norwiegans will not work as hard, or for as long, but again, work to a high standard, but with a lower standard of safety.
The Indians work longer, but not as hard.
The Filipeno's work harder, for more hours and to a lower standard. But they smile.
The Kuwaiti's work less, put in less effort and are unsafe. Without a smile.
Total generalisations on my behalf, but nonetheless a true account of what I have witnessed with my own eyes.
On the subject of Britain, our 2 main failure in my opinion have been 20 years of multi-government policy of expanding academic and discouraging vocational study combined with the arrogance and short sightedness of the unions.
On the continent (and beyond) the expression "Engineer" indicates a valued professional who is a vital component of any construction project. He/she is a person of some influence, and enjoys, quite rightly, a high and esteemed place in society.
In the UK the description "engineer" was last used with great respect in the case of Isambard Kingdom Brunel.
I would rather be stuck on a desert island with a qualified engineer than with a media studies graduate.
Why do we continue to get this priority so consistently wrong?
On the continent (and beyond) the expression "Engineer" indicates a valued professional who is a vital component of any construction project. He/she is a person of some influence, and enjoys, quite rightly, a high and esteemed place in society.
...................
Why do we continue to get this priority so consistently wrong?
Indeed.
But in Germany, even a tradesman is valued. A machinist does his 4 or 5 years training, then works his way up through various levels to the status of master craftsman. If he reaches that level, he is very well respected.
In Britain your guidance teacher will encourage you to stay in school through 6th year then go onto "further education" long before considering an apprenticeship.
But we moan that we're not making anything anymore...............
There was an interesting piece about education a few weeks ago on the radio. The discussion was around comprehensive education and how today it is not comprehensive but "one size fits all". The discussion asked whether we should be introducing technical Schools and Grammar Schools. Apparently this is what they do in Germany. The experts reminded us that before comprehensive education we did have Grammar Schools but instead of competing on an equal footing with What were then "Secondary Modern" they were seen as "better" and received more funding and better facilities. This doesnt happen in germany apparently - To be an engineer or be a skilled worker is seen as being as successful as being a professional person.
The question as to whether this could work in the UK was met with the reply that we would struggle to keep "class" out of the system. That The UK would not be able to see both types of education as equal. I do think that Schools seem to lack imagination in dealing with kids who aren't academic. The guidance advice and the lack of apprenticeships is an issue throughout the UK. My eldest son was not interested in school and wasnt given much in the way of help to find what he would do after school. Fortunately I was able to help him and he managed to secure a place on a ( it has to be said) not brilliant pre-apprentice course and then managed to get a job as an apprentice welder/fabricator. He is now out of his time and doing really well but that was almost DESPITE school.
Sadly, the UK state education system has three major problems:
1. The Politicians. They demand total changes to the curriculum once a whim, which removes empirical and comparable targets, aspirations, and standards.
2. The Educrats - education professionals (or professional educators), whose input has been toxic over generations. They speak a language unknown to the real world. And most of them are failures from the third category -
3. The Teachers - who actively believed the socio-political tosh they were taught at training colleges - no competition, unfair society, Mrs Thatcher to blame for everything from milk to hormones, left wing roolz OK, spelling, counting and writting musst take sekond plaice to free ekcspresion, and of course their delightful, spiteful unions. Yes, I know there are some brilliant teachers not tainted by this chronicle of misery, but sadly, the more useless the teacher, the more loud the shrieks when you disturb their comfort zone!
I taught in FE for 5 years, and I can tell you one of the main functions of FE is "picking up the pieces" of what should have happened in schools for the previous 11 years or so of a child's education.
At this point I'm almost convinced the government are trying really hard to anger anyone who makes below 300 grand a year. Ignoring the obvious hypocrisy of people who have never had a 'proper' job complaining about the working habits of others.
British workers are the most loyal and work the 3rd longest hours in Europe - Greece and Austria are the two countries where people work longer BTW. At least according the statistic offices of the both the UK and the EU.
Also some of the posters here seem to be a bit late for Thatcherism, might want to start working on that time machine.
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