View Full Version : Women for Independence
I have been involved in this group from its beginning and I am delighted to let you all know that it has gone live today. Media Coverage has been reasonably positive and there is to be a formal launch in Stirling on 30th September
http://womenforindependence.org/
Here is an article written by one of the original members
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/08/13/indy-women/
Enjoy!!!
Absolutely brilliant Squidge, I must applaud whoever thought of this idea and also the women who take part. I just wish there was a similar thing for men because this womens site seem to be looking into Independence far deeper than any other group. Mind you, women do tend to look deeper and further into things than men do, they want to know if they are doing the right thing or not. They will dissect the problem, sort out the for's and against's and then decide whether Independence is for them.
I think far too many people get one thing into their head that put's them off and then they stick to that come what may. Instances are........I dont like Alex Salmond, I dont like the SNP, they will take my British passport off me, I wont get as much pension or benefits, when the oil runs out we are finished.etc, etc, etc. I think this site for women asks and answers more questions than I have ever seen on one website.
Well done the Ladies, I for one are very well impressed!
C3...................:)
equusdriving
13-Aug-12, 23:18
I think far too many people get one thing into their head that put's them off and then they stick to that come what may. Instances are........I dont like Alex Salmond, I dont like the SNP, they will take my British passport off me, I wont get as much pension or benefits, when the oil runs out we are finished.etc, etc
C3...................:)
this coming from the man who made up his mind 40 years ago and says nothing will change it HYPOCRITE
A scene from Macbeth springs to mind....
Yon Chiel
13-Aug-12, 23:36
http://womenforindependence.org/
Here is an article written by one of the original members
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/08/13/indy-women/
What a lot of vapid twaddle.
What the devil does 'Scottish' mean in any case ? An arbitrary line is drawn from east to west on a land mass, purely for administrative purposes, and for some reason one group of people on one side of it are supposed to be so different to those on the other. Ill-informed jingoism at its worst.
I feel no more association with someone from Whitburn than I do with someone from Whitby. I have as little in common with a native of St Andrews as a native of St Helens.
oldmarine
13-Aug-12, 23:44
I enjoyed it!!!
oldmarine
13-Aug-12, 23:46
My wife is one of the finest women I have ever met.
John Little
14-Aug-12, 00:06
[QUOTE=Yon Chiel;969803]What a lot of vapid twaddle. What the devil does 'Scottish' mean in any case ? An arbitrary line is drawn from east to west on a land mass, purely for administrative purposes, and for some reason one group of people on one side of it are supposed to be so different to those on the other. Ill-informed jingoism at its worst.
I agree. Especially on the vapid twaddle bit.It reads just like some of the pie in the sky stuff that the old Greater London Council used to pump out when Red Ken ran it back in the 80s.
I'm all for independent women have been promoting it for years.
Why do some women feel the need to separate themselves to specialist groups - are we not capable of debate with in a male forum? Are we that stupid we need special groups to help us along .I find it insulting every time I see one of these
I wonder if men formed a 'Men for Independence' group they would be accused of being misogynists, chauvinists and a whole lot worse?
As it is this debate continues to divide the cause, loosen cohesion, create schisms and I fear it will ultimately cause failure.
No we are not stupid spurtle but women are under represented in the world of politics and many women feel disassociated with the debates that are going on just now. It is interesting to have a space to listen to women and see what their views and what prevents them from being involved. I think its a good thing and as there are all sorts of groups who are discussing how independence affects them and what they want to see in an Independent Scotland then it seems logical for women to do so as well. I feel that I have a voice but many many women across all walks of life are saying they do not feel that way. They feel ignored and powerless - the aims of the group are to improve that.
Gronnuck you are wrong - this is not about exclusion - the idea is to engage with women who are not engaged just now and that will only increase inclusion in the debate rather than be about excluding people. There are many groups taking the debate to all sorts of people who have felt disconnected from it. This is another one.
Women do have a voice and we need to stop whinging about not being heard and be more pro-active
Women do have a voice and we need to stop whinging about not being heard and be more pro-active
I ABSOLUTELY Agree and that is precisely what we are doing with Women for Independence - being proactive and ensuring that the views and opinions of women are heard!
Yes, with in a women only forum, WHY????
The forum is a space for women to discuss and debate.
The group does however have a facebook page which is open to anyone to comment regardless of sex.
Interestingly there has been more of an issue with anti women spamming than with Anti-independence spamming. Bizarre!!!!
We need to represent ourselves as individual people not as "women" as if all women want the same things we are as different as men are to each other. I am me and am not defined by my gender and as soon as you start this sort of thing it encourages the view that women are different
Yes, with in a women only forum, WHY????
Why not? Doesn't just about every group which can be formed around a specific demographic, currently have a a pro-independence FB page/website..why should women be excluded? As long as they take part in the wider debate as well in more generalised situations, what is the problem?
If we are all individuals and not defined through our gender then why is that women are still paid less than men, that women are under represented in politics, the media and other areas? Why is it that women still outnumber men as victims of domestic abuse? Why is it that women work more part time than men do and why is it that women still bear the majority of the responsibility for household chores and child rearing?
We are all different but as individuals we may need to support others who are not able to voice their opinions or their concerns. We choose how to do that - either by joining a trade union and representing our members, standing up for people with disabilities, people with mental health problems or other groups. This group is there to listen to what women specifically have to say about independence and to try to ensure that any issues which arise that women feel are not being discussed or taken seriously are brought to the fore and discussed within the wider debate and within policy making circles. This is done specifically because research and studies have shown that women are not engaging with politics and with the independence debate. That evidence is there and so those individuals amongst us who are engaging are trying to encourage others to do so.
It is however a personal choice Spurtle and if you dont feel that women have anything different to say or you dont want to identify yourself with a group of women or contribute to their debate then thats fine. I feel differently and Im putting my money where my mouth is - Im trying to ensure that as many people and women in particular get a chance to have their voices heard in this debate. Thats all.
Many women fought and some died to gain equil rights. Now that there is legislation in place to insure that women and men are treated with the same dignity and respect, it is a shame that some women feel the need to isolate themselves by joining these types of groups.
Women earn less then men because there is a higher proportion of women in part time work. They work part time because either that is all they want to, or because they are bringing up children and need the extra time to look after them or lack the experaince for a full time position because they were rainsing children. They look after the children because the mother is better at being the mother than the father is. Women to most of the household chores, because in my experiance, when I do them I get told "You're doing it wrong" and then my wife does them again - so I don't bother in the first place. If women feel that they are being under represented in politics then get off your bum and go and stand for election - there is nothing stopping you! By saying that women are under represented you are indirectly saying that the electorate is sexist - as we vote for who gets in!
Just remember it was only recently that retirement age was made the same - infact some women can still retire at 60 - dispite women living longer than men
oldmarine
14-Aug-12, 20:00
No we are not stupid spurtle but women are under represented in the world of politics and many women feel disassociated with the debates that are going on just now. It is interesting to have a space to listen to women and see what their views and what prevents them from being involved. I think its a good thing and as there are all sorts of groups who are discussing how independence affects them and what they want to see in an Independent Scotland then it seems logical for women to do so as well. I feel that I have a voice but many many women across all walks of life are saying they do not feel that way. They feel ignored and powerless - the aims of the group are to improve that.
Gronnuck you are wrong - this is not about exclusion - the idea is to engage with women who are not engaged just now and that will only increase inclusion in the debate rather than be about excluding people. There are many groups taking the debate to all sorts of people who have felt disconnected from it. This is another one.
squidge: Again I agree with you. Women in the USA were denied voting rights for too many years before the women's sufferage act turned it around. I am all for women having equal rights with men. I have been blessed with a wonderful wife and she helps me to see a woman's view on matters that I might overlook.
There was an interesting piece on Scotland tonight last night about this subject http://player.stv.tv/programmes/scotland-tonight/2012-08-14-2230/
rob murray
15-Aug-12, 16:36
The cynic in me see's this as the creation ( aided and abetted by party support ) of a focus group, shows how ahead of the game the nats are re propoganda.
whitechina
15-Aug-12, 21:12
I have been involved in this group from its beginning and I am delighted to let you all know that it has gone live today. Media Coverage has been reasonably positive and there is to be a formal launch in Stirling on 30th September
http://womenforindependence.org/
Here is an article written by one of the original members
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/08/13/indy-women/
Enjoy!!!
ENJOY??? Hahaha! It's just another front for the S.N.P.Another bunch of misty-eyed, tartan clad,shortbread munching,haggis hunting nationalists whose strings are being pulled by the Dear Leader Soapy Salmond. I can't wait to see how many more such groups the SNP creates in the run-up to the Indy referendum.
The cynic in me see's this as the creation ( aided and abetted by party support ) of a focus group, shows how ahead of the game the nats are re propoganda.
Well, from what I can see, the Nats are very proactive, but preaching to the converted and the Union supporters are not very active in the propaganda field but don't need any convincing. So I can't really see where any swing, either way, is likely to come from.
I have been involved in this group from its beginning and I am delighted to let you all know that it has gone live today. Media Coverage has been reasonably positive and there is to be a formal launch in Stirling on 30th September
http://womenforindependence.org/
Here is an article written by one of the original members
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/08/13/indy-women/
Enjoy!!!
So! Instead of the initial impression that you willing to give us that you were a person who just seems to think that independence may be a good thing, you do seem to be quite the convert and political activist.
So! Instead of the initial impression that you willing to give us that you were a person who just seems to think that independence may be a good thing, you do seem to be quite the convert and political activist.
No Rheghead..... . I announced my decision right here so there was no doubt and so that people would not be misled http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?181102-Decisions...-decisions..... Did you forget or did you just want a dig? What you see is what you get with me Rheg....
I blog too and have made no secret of that either......
No Rheghead..... . I announced my decision right here so there was no doubt and so that people would not be misled http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?181102-Decisions...-decisions..... Did you forget?
I blog too and have made no secret of that either......
It is one thing thinking that independence is a good thing and voting Yes, but it is a whole different animal by being so politically active for a cause, especially when you weren't completely up front with us and even having doubts about it.
Here just for you
http://forum.caithness.org/groups/img/head_blue50.jpg
Sue Lyons (you) (http://forum.caithness.org/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=K5mrzhQAAACpDBTRwp32m74A9u2aWVoBOPANdqfI6 prRsqjc7uCt1A)
Member - joined May 31
How is it different to lend your support to a group which offers a space for something you are interested in? This group interested me as it was about and for women. Being part of this group is one of the places that have allowed debate and encouraged expressions of doubt and uncertainty and some of these helped me to make my mind up. Incidentally, I also asked around to find if there were any women's groups as part of the "NO to Independence" side and was told there werent. I have explored joined and unjoined many groups, forums and pages in an effort to make an informed decision and as soon as I was ready to commit my support I informed anyone who might be interested.
Im going on the march on the 22nd of September and have a few leaflets left after delivering some - want to complain about that?
.
Here just for you
http://forum.caithness.org/groups/img/head_blue50.jpg
Sue Lyons (you) (http://forum.caithness.org/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=K5mrzhQAAACpDBTRwp32m74A9u2aWVoBOPANdqfI6 prRsqjc7uCt1A)
Member - joined May 31
How is it different to lend your support to a group which offers a space for something you are interested in? This group interested me as it was about and for women. Being part of this group is one of the places that have allowed debate and encouraged expressions of doubt and uncertainty and some of these helped me to make my mind up. Incidentally, I also asked around to find if there were any women's groups as part of the "NO to Independence" side and was told there werent. I have explored joined and unjoined many groups, forums and pages in an effort to make an informed decision and as soon as I was ready to commit my support I informed anyone who might be interested.
Im going on the march on the 22nd of September and have a few leaflets left after delivering some - want to complain about that?
.
Hardly an exercise in objectivity. The Yes/No campaigns have hardly started and there are 2 years to go before the vote. You inquired if there was a No to Independence group, so instead of forming one yourself, you promptly embark on forming/being involved in a group for Yes to independence.
you don't have to join groups etc to make one's mind up for goodness sake.
I was actually invited to this group precisely because I was undecided and wrote about it. I joined other NO groups and forums but ..... why am I even bothering to explain this to you. You found what you think is duplicity so go ahead and exploit it - I dont need to care what you think - im not standing for election - I have been open and upfront with this board as to my political leanings which is more than many people. If you are insulted or feel injured then you must feel I am more important than I think I am.
but ...... just for you
I am pro independence If there was a referendum tomorrow I will vote YES....... I am not a member of ANY political party but i have been a labour voter most of my life and an SNP voter for the last few years. I think I am a socialist actually probably more than anything. I will try to contribute to the debate by giving the best answers i can to questions from my own point of view using as much independent and objective information as I can find - I will join whatever group and whatever pages I like to enable me to explore and evaluate the issues affecting Scotland and particularly women within Scotland because that is my interest and I will be joining the march for Independence....If I find evidence which is compelling and will show me the things I want to achieve can be found within the union then I may change my mind.
Is that clear enough for you?
Oh.... Im also 48 and three quarters and take a size 6 shoe......
Well if you are undecided then you don't just jump on the nearest bandwagon for the Yes vote get swept along with their propaganda. If you are serious about making an informed viewpoint then you would wait until all the information is in and vote as your concsience takes you about 5 minutes before you enter the voting booth. That is real objectivity, instead you are now just a source of propaganda for one side of the debate.
I have been thinking, talking debating, exploring and considering this since before I started voting SNP and in more detail since the SNP won a majority government and I knew there would be a referendum. In fact I have been considering this question since I voted for a devolved parliament and cheered as Donald Dewar took his place as first minister. I have been interested in politics for many years and in womens issues since I was a wee girl - i have been a feminist all my life. Do you really think that I have only decided this from what I have read in the last six months?
Dont judge everyone by the way you behave yourself.
I have been thinking, talking debating, exploring and considering this since before I started voting SNP and in more detail since the SNP won a majority government and I knew there would be a referendum. In fact I have been considering this question since I voted for a devolved parliament and cheered as Donald Dewar took his place as first minister. I have been interested in politics for many years and in womens issues since I was a wee girl - i have been a feminist all my life. Do you really think that I have only decided this from what I have read in the last six months?
Dont judge everyone by the way you behave yourself.
But it is not me that is just in the Yes camp - for now. Don't you owe it to your fellow nationalists that you are comitted to the cause? Don't you think you would be more convincing for Yes to independence if it was that good then you didn't need to do all this group therapy for a Yes vote? You don't come across as a convincing politician.
At least with Oddquine, you know what you are gonna get.
I dont know what you mean.... group therapy? Are you talking about the women's group?
I am not a poltician Rheghead - I am a voter.
I dont know what you mean.... group therapy? Are you talking about the women's group?
I am not a poltician Rheghead - I am a voter.
No you are a politician, a political activist.
I tell you what and I don't mean to be in the remotest bit insulting but I think you have got caught up in the romance of the free and independent Scotland thing. All your eggs are all the one basket now so I can see why you come across so evangelical about the Yes vote. The converts always are.
If you took away the romantic aspect of how Scottish you feel and how you see your life right now and let your logical mind kick in then you wouldn't be so pro-independence. But then independence is that isn't it, it is a dream or a utopia. In every Scot there is a bit that wants an independent nation.
I am carried away with the romance and display the blind evangalism of the converted and yet in another post not committed enough????
I am not a nationalist of the heart.I dont think that the English oppress the Scots. I am evangelical you are right but it is about fairness and equality within society and if you bother to check back you will find that this has remained constant throughout my entire time of posting on this forum. I am not scottish although I do feel I belong here, it is my home - I am one of Scotlands people but I am english and I both sound and feel like a northerner. I dont yearn for freedom - I am free. I love Scotland and I am happy here but I am not happy with the society we live in - I do not believe we live in a fair and equal society. I think we can do better but I dont beleive there is the poltical will or impetus to change things for the better within the union either now or in the forseeable future.
After careful consideration and after exploring the potential for change within the Union over many years, I am of the opinion that an Independent Scotland offers us the best chance of changing things and the best chance of developing a society which is better and fairer than what we have now. It is the opportunity for that which excites me and as with anything I have done all my life I will strive to do MY best to contribute to a society that ensures people get the best chance of achieving their potential. I have been a member of many voluntary groups, charities, campaigning groups over the years to try to address inequality, both in my personal and working life and this is part of the same thing. The women's group actually has as its aims to listen to women and their opinions about independence to inform the debate and to assist with designing the kind of democracy, the kind of parliament and the kind of society we would like to see in an Independent Scotland. It says
We are an open and diverse network of women who support independence for Scotland and will work with others for a Yes vote in the referendum.
We will ensure that there will be a space for women’s voices and interests in the campaign.
Independence will create opportunities for women to engage in developing a fully democratic vision for Scotland’s future. Women should play a central role in achieving independence.
If that makes me an activist then so I am - I am an activist for a better society and I have been all my life - Im proud of that. You say I am nothing but a bedazzled dreamer.
Is it a dream? Do I dream of Independence? No - MY dreams are about the eradication of child poverty, fairer taxation system, better care for the elderly for looked after children and for each other, a society which encourages everyone to achieve their own potential and a million other things. Grandiose they may be but they are precisely why I can stand firm for Independence and yet say that I may change my mind if I am no longer convinced that Independence offers the opportunity for change that I hope for. That is precisely why I am not a romantic nationalist - i would not have independence at any cost. I want a better society and that's what I am striving for - in fact what I have striven for all my life. I think Independence offers us the opportuntity to have that better society and it is THAT which drives me not some silly idea of a Brigadoon.
Your dismissal of my views as romantic are the forum equivalent of patting me on the head.. It shows that you pigeon hole me as foolish and therefore dismiss what I have to say as nothing. Thats fine Rheghead - you do that, however it is patronising and disrespectful and i have seen better from you. You have obviously made your mind up about me despite never having met or had a private conversation with me. If it pleases you then carry on and think that I am some empty headed woman with nothing to do but dream of Walter Scott stories and tales of Scottish history, mist laden hills and a free wild Scottish hero to carry me away from all of this oppression.
Please yourself Im off to bed.... to sleep perchance to dream maybe.... i hope so!!!!
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 10:11
I was actually invited to this group precisely because I was undecided and wrote about it. I joined other NO groups and forums but ..... why am I even bothering to explain this to you. You found what you think is duplicity so go ahead and exploit it - I dont need to care what you think - im not standing for election - I have been open and upfront with this board as to my political leanings which is more than many people. If you are insulted or feel injured then you must feel I am more important than I think I am.
but ...... just for you
I am pro independence If there was a referendum tomorrow I will vote YES....... I am not a member of ANY political party but i have been a labour voter most of my life and an SNP voter for the last few years. I think I am a socialist actually probably more than anything. I will try to contribute to the debate by giving the best answers i can to questions from my own point of view using as much independent and objective information as I can find - I will join whatever group and whatever pages I like to enable me to explore and evaluate the issues affecting Scotland and particularly women within Scotland because that is my interest and I will be joining the march for Independence....If I find evidence which is compelling and will show me the things I want to achieve can be found within the union then I may change my mind.
Is that clear enough for you?
Perhaps you should really focus and research the central theme of SNP economics, the role that renewable energy ( wave and tidal ) will allegedly play in re creating Scotlands lost industrial heart land ( substitute renewables for "Clyde" build ) "The Saudia Arabia of Renewables", see my previous postings but to repeat
1 How much actual money has been "given" for renewable developments
2 How many actual wave / tidal working devices are currently being used ( in Scottish Waters )
3 WHo owns the IPR rights to devices / how many direct scottish based companies are involved in renewables
4 How many manufacturing jobs right now are visible
5 How many supposed wave / tidal devices are actually at the stage of production, the "majority" are still at prototype stage
6 Given the predicted zero / slow world wide growth who is going to finance the move from prototype to actual manufacturing
7 Look in Caithness, where are the new electricty sub stations to handle supposed power from tidal renewables
recent press statments alluded to the comming booming northern economy with full employment, manufacturing jobs, new hotels, marinas etc etc all off the back of wave and tidal devices in the pentland firth.....fed by SNIP propoganda, so its a stark choice, do you believe that this will happen ( and its said it may take 30 years ) or dont you, if you dont you cannot support seperatism, if you do then seperate. Ive seen enough now at first hand to know the lies being peddled and the obvious compete economic catastrophe facing Caithness in 10 years time when UKAEA seriously down sizes : Wake up you are being conned by a first class con man / high stakes gambler
Wake up you are being conned by a first class con man / high stakes gambler
A perfect way of describing Cameron, Clegg, Brown or Blair !!!
Time to give someone else a chance methinks !!
C3...........:roll:;)
John Little
16-Aug-12, 10:31
A perfect way of describing Cameron, Clegg, Brown or Blair !!!Time to give someone else a chance methinks !!C3...........:roll:;)A certain irony here. Two Scots, one first generation Scot and a numpty.
And the solution - to break the Union.
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 10:37
A perfect way of describing Cameron, Clegg, Brown or Blair !!!
Time to give someone else a chance methinks !!
C3...........:roll:;)
Game set and match eh! None of the aforementioned have trumpeted the renewables case based on out and out lies and sheer exaggerations conning the population on what has to be the big con of the 21st century. Or are you arguing on gthe grounds of meet the new boss same as the old boss...we wont get foled again.
Your dismissal of my views as romantic are the forum equivalent of patting me on the head.. It shows that you pigeon hole me as foolish and therefore dismiss what I have to say as nothing. Thats fine Rheghead - you do that, however it is patronising and disrespectful and i have seen better from you.
It is obvious to me that your love for the rabid Scottish Nationist otherwise known as the Bruce has unduly affected your better judgement. Me on the otherhand is also married to a rabid Nat but I have maintained my intellectual independence without succumbing to the constant propaganda.
I can hold up my English head without shame.
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 10:50
Uk wise, the coalition is fragmenting, tories way behind in the polls, LD's totally marginalised with abject poll ratings, labour making steady ground with reasoned alternative economic contingencies. If the LD's vote against boundary changes ( basically being rigged against Labour ) then as things stand, unless there is an economic miracle Labour may win the next general election. So Ive no experience of Labour, as is now, the Cameron, Clegg, Brown or Blair arguement doesnt apply. I am a Devolutionist , devolve agreed economic power in terms of taxtation / revenue management to a devolved "parliament" which remain in the UK. The ecomony is run on the basis of whats good for the London metropolis is good for the UK, its not and never was. However in Scotland we need proprer regional representation as the needs of the Highlands differ vastly than that of Strathclyde, so devoled economic powers based on regionalistion but contained within the UK works....seperatism.... no not in a million years.....
Game set and match eh! None of the aforementioned have trumpeted the renewables case based on out and out lies and sheer exaggerations conning the population on what has to be the big con of the 21st century. Or are you arguing on gthe grounds of meet the new boss same as the old boss...we wont get foled again.
So what do you suggest for the people of Scotland Rob?
I have spent my entire (long) life being ruled by either Labour and then Tory and then back to Labour. I am absolutely sick of it as one blames the other and then punishes the ordinary man in the street.
The results of the last Scottish elections prove that I am not alone in this thinking so if as you say we should give the SNP a wide berth then who should I vote for?
C3............:eek:
John Little
16-Aug-12, 10:57
Uk wise, the coalition is fragmenting, tories way behind in the polls, LD's totally marginalised with abject poll ratings, labour making steady ground with reasoned alternative economic contingencies. If the LD's vote against boundary changes ( basically being rigged against Labour ) then as things stand, unless there is an economic miracle Labour may win the next general election. So Ive no experience of Labour, as is now, the Cameron, Clegg, Brown or Blair arguement doesnt apply. I am a Devolutionist , devolve agreed economic power in terms of taxtation / revenue management to a devolved "parliament" which remain in the UK. The ecomony is run on the basis of whats good for the London metropolis is good for the UK, its not and never was. However in Scotland we need proprer regional representation as the needs of the Highlands differ vastly than that of Strathclyde, so devoled economic powers based on regionalistion but contained within the UK works....seperatism.... no not in a million years.....
Sane, measured, logical and democratic: preserves the best, minimises the worst and has bright promise for all regions of the UK.
The SNP has enough of a head of steam to achieve this for all, and if they did, then they would benefit the whole Union.
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 11:01
So what do you suggest for the people of Scotland Rob?
I have spent my entire (long) life being ruled by either Labour and then Tory and then back to Labour. I am absolutely sick of it as one blames the other and then punishes the ordinary man in the street.
The results of the last Scottish elections prove that I am not alone in this thinking so if as you say we should give the SNP a wide berth then who should I vote for?
C3............:eek:
Ok you get independence then what you still have is a party system, say the SNP are found out big time, then who will people vote for...Scottish Labour if you go by the polls. Then we could be faced in an independant Scotland with SNP / Labour / SNP labour. I know its been since 1945 labour / tory / labour / tory / labour etc but that proves we really have a two party system under current election criteria, real change could come from proportional representation. The last Scottish election was a water shed no doubt about that, and why....the number 2 party Labour fought an election on the past...SNP presented a bright brave new alternative which people bought into big time, but dont assume that that was a confidence vote to pursue seperatism...more a large protest vote against Labour / LD. Time will out the SNP's brave new world, its built on sand, thats really why we are the Saudi Arabia of Renewables. The number one rational of the SNP is independence then what....we would revert to a two party system !!!
I have spent my entire (long) life being ruled by either Labour and then Tory and then back to Labour. I am absolutely sick of it as one blames the other and then punishes the ordinary man in the street.
The results of the last Scottish elections prove that I am not alone in this thinking so if as you say we should give the SNP a wide berth then who should I vote for?
C3............:eek:
I too share your frustration of British politics regarding the tooing and froing characteristic of the nation's choice. But I've come to the conclusion that we actually need this sort of swing from the left to the right. I like to use the analogy of a footballer who dribbles a ball from one length of the field to the other. The ball is the British economy/society, the footballer is the British people, the right and left boot are the main political parties or left/right wing aspects of politics. If we need to kick the ball in a straight line then we need to kick with both feet and both feet need to kick with the same strength to cancel eachother out.
The problem is that Labour and the tories are both moving to the right
It is obvious to me that your love for the rabid Scottish Nationist otherwise known as the Bruce has unduly affected your better judgement. Me on the otherhand is also married to a rabid Nat but I have maintained my intellectual independence without succumbing to the constant propaganda.
I can hold up my English head without shame.
So rheghead thus far you have accused me of being deceitful, underhand, confused, half-hearted, over committed and romantic...
You have yet offered me no serious arguments, you simply make personal and judgemental comments about me and here we have yet another dismissal of me as a stupid woman blinded by love and unable to make my own mind up.
Rob I will decide on Independence on what is important to ME - you make your mind up on what is important to you.... If that is renewables then that is up to you. To suggest that I am being conned is also insulting and patronising.
It is really interesting that I - presenting a nationalist viewpoint has been subjected to such personal attacks when I try really hard not to indulge in that sort of behaviour within the arguments. why is that I wonder - neither of you have tried to influence me with reasoned arguments although rob's list bears a further look - my earlier research on the subject suggests its a one side says one thing and one another but I will get round to it. Instead you have rubbished my integrity and my intellect and yet both of you are intelligent men well able to present a case for the union - seems like insulting me and painting me a love sick gullible empty headed woman is more appetising to you.
If anyone needed any evidence of why there is a need for a Woman's group on Independence you have it right here. Shame on you
So rheghead thus far you have accused me of being deceitful, underhand, confused, half-hearted, over committed and romantic...
You have yet offered me no serious arguments, you simply make personal and judgemental comments about me and here we have yet another dismissal of me as a stupid woman blinded by love and unable to make my own mind up.
Rob I will decide on Independence on what is important to ME - you make your mind up on what is important to you.... If that is renewables then that is up to you. To suggest that I am being conned is also insulting and patronising.
It is really interesting that I - presenting a nationalist viewpoint has been subjected to such personal attacks when I try really hard not to indulge in that sort of behaviour within the arguments. why is that I wonder - neither of you have tried to influence me with reasoned arguments although rob's list bears a further look - my earlier research on the subject suggests its a one side says one thing and one another but I will get round to it. Instead you have rubbished my integrity and my intellect and yet both of you are intelligent men well able to present a case for the union - seems like insulting me and painting me a love sick gullible empty headed woman is more appetising to you.
If anyone needed any evidence of why there is a need for a Woman's group on Independence you have it right here. Shame on you
no I have just accused you of not using your logical, unemotional objectivity.
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 11:45
So rheghead thus far you have accused me of being deceitful, underhand, confused, half-hearted, over committed and romantic...
You have yet offered me no serious arguments, you simply make personal and judgemental comments about me and here we have yet another dismissal of me as a stupid woman blinded by love and unable to make my own mind up.
Rob I will decide on Independence on what is important to ME - you make your mind up on what is important to you.... If that is renewables then that is up to you. To suggest that I am being conned is also insulting and patronising.
It is really interesting that I - presenting a nationalist viewpoint has been subjected to such personal attacks when I try really hard not to indulge in that sort of behaviour within the arguments. why is that I wonder - neither of you have tried to influence me with reasoned arguments although rob's list bears a further look - my earlier research on the subject suggests its a one side says one thing and one another but I will get round to it. Instead you have rubbished my integrity and my intellect and yet both of you are intelligent men well able to present a case for the union - seems like insulting me and painting me a love sick gullible empty headed woman is more appetising to you.
If anyone needed any evidence of why there is a need for a Woman's group on Independence you have it right here. Shame on you
"Rob I will decide on Independence on what is important to ME - you make your mind up on what is important to you.... If that is renewables then that is up to you. To suggest that I am being conned is also insulting and patronising"
You live in a democracy right...free speech...then why the crap about being insulted...just because you dont see / believe the points I made as is your free right...or have you made any attempt to think them through, then counter debate eh !!!...fine you have a right to believe in the so called brave new world...I and many others have the right to disagree...I would like to say that I am arguing on facts..and as far as I can see you havent mentioned / articulated in any way why Scotland should indulge in seperatism. Argue your case then, Im no cyber bully, lets hear why you think we should seperate ???
"lets hear why you think we should seperate ???
What again????
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 12:03
What again????
Ive re read your postings and what I can see is that you express "dreams are about the eradication of child poverty, fairer taxation system, better care for the elderly for looked after children and for each other, a society which encourages everyone to achieve their own potential and a million other things" a pretty broad statement, if you are sure that this will be delivered by a seperate Scotland then fair play to you, me everything comes down to economics and ability to pay, the SNP have delivered some of your social wishes...but thats within a UK setting, my well documented fears are that Scotland and the stated ecomonic future economic direction cannot and will not deliver. Anyone can wish for anything and any politician can make wishful statements of intent, but the key question is how are things financed...from earned revenues..and like it or not Salmon has made great play on how Sctoland ( yet again and Im now sick of qouting him ) will be the Saudia Arabla of Rebewable Energy. Its not happening, but vplease correct me if you so wish, where will the revenues come from ????
So rheghead thus far you have accused me of being deceitful, underhand, confused, half-hearted, over committed and romantic...
You have yet offered me no serious arguments, you simply make personal and judgemental comments about me and here we have yet another dismissal of me as a stupid woman blinded by love and unable to make my own mind up.
Rob I will decide on Independence on what is important to ME - you make your mind up on what is important to you.... If that is renewables then that is up to you. To suggest that I am being conned is also insulting and patronising.
It is really interesting that I - presenting a nationalist viewpoint has been subjected to such personal attacks when I try really hard not to indulge in that sort of behaviour within the arguments. why is that I wonder - neither of you have tried to influence me with reasoned arguments although rob's list bears a further look - my earlier research on the subject suggests its a one side says one thing and one another but I will get round to it. Instead you have rubbished my integrity and my intellect and yet both of you are intelligent men well able to present a case for the union - seems like insulting me and painting me a love sick gullible empty headed woman is more appetising to you.
If anyone needed any evidence of why there is a need for a Woman's group on Independence you have it right here. Shame on you
Squidge,
I hate to say this but you are wasting your time and energy, over and over again you have written why you are backing Independence and time and time again the naysayers are testing you to the limit. Only Rob has given us a half hearted attempt at persuading us why we should stay in the Union, as you say, the rest are just Trolling and giving out personal attacks.
At the end of the day, we vote as we choose. I respect anyones wishes to vote to stay in the Union and I expect those people to respect my wish to leave.
In two years time I dont expect anyone's mind on this Forum to have changed so as far as I am concerned we are all wasting our time and energy on something that we dont really have control over.
C3...........:roll:;)
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 13:09
Squidge,
I hate to say this but you are wasting your time and energy, over and over again you have written why you are backing Independence and time and time again the naysayers are testing you to the limit. Only Rob has given us a half hearted attempt at persuading us why we should stay in the Union, as you say, the rest are just Trolling and giving out personal attacks.
At the end of the day, we vote as we choose. I respect anyones wishes to vote to stay in the Union and I expect those people to respect my wish to leave.
In two years time I dont expect anyone's mind on this Forum to have changed so as far as I am concerned we are all wasting our time and energy on something that we dont really have control over.
C3...........:roll:;)
A half hearted attempt, come on lol, Im 100% committed to staying in the UK albeit with more devolved economic powers and a stronger regional involvement. My own views, thats the way I see it, and hopefully others may well wish to dig a bit deeper into the economic arguements being forwarded. We do have control though...we have a vote and the issue is to get people to make informed choices, thats the thrust of the matter, dont belive what your are told, find out your self, the vote ( however worded ) will be the most significant political event ever, so folks dont take things at face value from anyone, dig deep !!!!
equusdriving
16-Aug-12, 14:37
At the end of the day, we vote as we choose. I respect anyones wishes to vote to stay in the Union and I expect those people to respect my wish to leave.
In two years time I dont expect anyone's mind on this Forum to have changed so as far as I am concerned we are all wasting our time and energy on something that we dont really have control over.
C3...........:roll:;)
this again from the man who has started more and turned more threads onto Voting for Independence than anyone else. HYPOCRITE
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 14:53
this again from the man who has started more and turned more threads onto Voting for Independence than anyone else. HYPOCRITE
We're both part of the same hypocrisy, senator, but never think it applies to my family. Michael Corleone Godfather 2
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 15:08
We're both part of the same hypocrisy, senator, but never think it applies to my family. Michael Corleone Godfather 2
This is the business we've chosen; I didn't ask who gave the order, because it had nothing to do with business! Hyman Roth lol lol
this again from the man who has started more and turned more threads onto Voting for Independence than anyone else. HYPOCRITE
Not just that but one of the flagship policy areas of the SNP is renewable energy but C3 has been consistently anti-renewables throughout.
I am the first to admit that I dont understand the economic argument - in fact i say it here again and again. There is argument and counter argument about what is and isnt possible in an economic Scotland. However there is one truth amongst all the flannery and flummery and that is that when you get down to it, in an Independent Scotland the money raised in Scotland will be spent in Scotland on priorities decided by the Scottish people through using their vote.
We vote for a government based on what is in their manifesto and we decide. Currently within the Union The Scottish electorate votes for a westminster government which allocates money to Scotland based on their own priorities. These may include NHS reforms, welfare reforms. Increasing tuition fees, A replacement for Trident, a new rail link to Birmingham, elite sportsmen and women amongst other things.
Scottish prioities may not include any or all of those. In addition, areas where the Scottish government - and I am talking future scottish governements not necessarily the SNP - may wish to prioritise a Scottish National Health service, Dualling the A9, tax reforms, Innovation in welfare, growth and job creation, free higher education and a revamp of the social care system. Because the current set up allows Westminster to base the amount on their own priorities, it ties the hands of any Scottish government to address its own priorities as fully as it could do if it was the government of an Independent Scotland. for me the important thing about the Economics of an independent Scotland is that we will have full control of our budgets, our priorities and our policies.
Now to oil and renewables, Politicians and the media tell us all the time that oil will run out and I am sure that it will but industry and technology do not stand still. the industrial landscape is not static it changes and grows. Even left to its own devices it does that with a programme of scientific development and industrial growth - better lending and support of new innovative businesses then we can change and grow so that by the time the oil runs out Scotland no longer needs oil. Now that maybe renewables or it maybe other things. I dont beleive we can be the Saudi Arabia of renewables but neither do I beleive that the oil will run out the day after Scotland gains Independence.
As for welfare, millions and millions of pounds are being wasted on the welfare reforms which the government is driving through just now. There is no innovation, there is no desire to support or assist the unemployed, the sick or the disabled. The UK government fiddles around the edges and ends up paying over £100 million to ATOS to deliver fitness to work interviews and because they make such a hash of it they then have to pay £48 million for the appeals procedures. Not satisfied with this they then give the SAME company another contract to deliver welfare reductions. As for help for unemployed people this and previous governments put the responsibilty for help to private companies whose main aim is to make a profit. the chief Executive of one of these companies recently gave herself a £9 million bonus, whilst some of her companies were being investigated for fraud. £9 million pounds from the profits made off placing unemployed people into work - £9 million!!!! and the government spends all its time and energy persuading us that those on welfare are the scoundrels, the skivers and the dishonest ones. So much so that in a recent survey, 70% of people thought that the vast majority of people on benefits were getting more than they were entitled to through either fraud or lying about their situation or illness. They thought that 55% of claimants were doing this when in actual fact the figure is 3%.
Child poverty - this government commissioned Frank Field to complete a report on Poverty and life chances which he did and which makes interesting reading. They then completely ignored its recommendations and have done nothing to tackle the poverty which is strangling the aspirations of many children.
What I see when I look at the Westminster style of politics, of governance is a government which cares little for "society" as a whole. Accross both parties - Labour and tory and as for the Lib Dems they have lost all credibillity. I see absolutely no impetus to change society to make it better - how can there be impetus, those in the positions of power have utterly no idea of the degradation and difficulties people on benefits for example, might feel. IT is like a book in a foreign language to them. They can look and have an attempt at uttering the right words but they have no idea what those words really mean.
So what will a YES vote in the referendum mean for me.... Well it will mean that we have the opportunity to begin a process which will hopefully lead to a better society and some of the issues and dreams I and many others have being addressed.
Did you read that - The opportunity to begin..... The referendum is about democracy.... it is about having the democratic right to vote for an Independent Scotland and FROM then to have the right to vote for a Scottish Government that implements policies which will benefit Scotland. The polices themselves will be for the election in 2016.
I belevie from the research that I have done that there will be a change in the political landscape of Scotland if a YES vote is secured. The parties will have to change or become irrelevant... Tory and Labour parties will have to develop policies for an Independent Scotland - something they are refusing to do just now and who can blame them. Scottish MPs in Westminster will lose their seats ( might account for the behaviour of the scottish Affairs committee a little if you remember that all those Mps on that committee will be out of a job if there is a YES vote.) and some of them may head north to seek to influence society in an Independent Scotland by standing for other parties - I would welcome that. The SNP themselves would, according to many commentators, splinter and new parties like the Scottish Democratic Alliance will emerge with their policies and priorities to add to the debate.
This creates massive opportunity to be a force for good - not for the SNP - I have no idea who will lead a Government in and Independent Scotland. Alex salmond it may be but it may just as easily not be the SNP. This possibility to redefine Scotland and its government is a huge opportunity not to be missed. That is why I will vote YES. not because i love my husband:roll:; not because I hate english people; not because I am some stupid wee girl being conned by Alex salmond and his charms(?!) but because I beleive that an Independent Scotland gives us possibilities not available to us as part of the union. i have yet to see an argument that the same or better opportunity for change is available within the union.
Rob, you may not agree, You may shake your head and complain that i am a dreamer and vapid and lacking in intellect but i have put as much effort into making my decision over the last many years as you have in making yours. Over the next 2 years I will campaign for Independence.... not for the SNP as much as many unionist supprters would have us beleive its the same thing - it isnt. I will do that because I BELIEVE in the power of the Scottish Electorate to elect a parliament which is about people and their lives. Improvements and changes wont happen at once, they wont be implemented immediately and we might have to tighten our belts and pay a bit more in tax but actually I dont mind that.... Its beginning the process that is important ... creating the opportunity and working in whatever small way I can to create the opportunity for change and help people live better lives in a society that actually wants the best for all its citizens
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 15:35
I am the first to admit that I dont understand the economic argument - in fact i say it here again and again. There is argument and counter argument about what is and isnt possible in an economic Scotland. However there is one truth amongst all the flannery and flummery and that is that when you get down to it, in an Independent Scotland the money raised in Scotland will be spent in Scotland on priorities decided by the Scottish people through using their vote.
We vote for a government based on what is in their manifesto and we decide. Currently within the Union The Scottish electorate votes for a westminster government which allocates money to Scotland based on their own priorities. These may include NHS reforms, welfare reforms. Increasing tuition fees, A replacement for Trident, a new rail link to Birmingham, elite sportsmen and women amongst other things.
Scottish prioities may not include any or all of those. In addition, areas where the Scottish government - and I am talking future scottish governements not necessarily the SNP - may wish to prioritise a Scottish National Health service, Dualling the A9, tax reforms, Innovation in welfare, growth and job creation, free higher education and a revamp of the social care system. Because the current set up allows Westminster to base the amount on their own priorities, it ties the hands of any Scottish government to address its own priorities as fully as it could do if it was the government of an Independent Scotland. for me the important thing about the Economics of an independent Scotland is that we will have full control of our budgets, our priorities and our policies.
Now to oil and renewables, Politicians and the media tell us all the time that oil will run out and I am sure that it will but industry and technology do not stand still. the industrial landscape is not static it changes and grows. Even left to its own devices it does that with a programme of scientific development and industrial growth - better lending and support of new innovative businesses then we can change and grow so that by the time the oil runs out Scotland no longer needs oil. Now that maybe renewables or it maybe other things. I dont beleive we can be the Saudi Arabia of renewables but neither do I beleive that the oil will run out the day after Scotland gains Independence.
As for welfare, millions and millions of pounds are being wasted on the welfare reforms which the government is driving through just now. There is no innovation, there is no desire to support or assist the unemployed, the sick or the disabled. The UK government fiddles around the edges and ends up paying over £100 million to ATOS to deliver fitness to work interviews and because they make such a hash of it they then have to pay £48 million for the appeals procedures. Not satisfied with this they then give the SAME company another contract to deliver welfare reductions. As for help for unemployed people this and previous governments put the responsibilty for help to private companies whose main aim is to make a profit. the chief Executive of one of these companies recently gave herself a £9 million bonus, whilst some of her companies were being investigated for fraud. £9 million pounds from the profits made off placing unemployed people into work - £9 million!!!! and the government spends all its time and energy persuading us that those on welfare are the scoundrels, the skivers and the dishonest ones. So much so that in a recent survey, 70% of people thought that the vast majority of people on benefits were getting more than they were entitled to through either fraud or lying about their situation or illness. They thought that 55% of claimants were doing this when in actual fact the figure is 3%.
Child poverty - this government commissioned Frank Field to complete a report on Poverty and life chances which he did and which makes interesting reading. They then completely ignored its recommendations and have done nothing to tackle the poverty which is strangling the aspirations of many children.
What I see when I look at the Westminster style of politics, of governance is a government which cares little for "society" as a whole. Accross both parties - Labour and tory and as for the Lib Dems they have lost all credibillity. I see absolutely no impetus to change society to make it better - how can there be impetus, those in the positions of power have utterly no idea of the degradation and difficulties people on benefits for example, might feel. IT is like a book in a foreign language to them. They can look and have an attempt at uttering the right words but they have no idea what those words really mean.
So what will a YES vote in the referendum mean for me.... Well it will mean that we have the opportunity to begin a process which will hopefully lead to a better society and some of the issues and dreams I and many others have being addressed.
Did you read that - The opportunity to begin..... The referendum is about democracy.... it is about having the democratic right to vote for an Independent Scotland and FROM then to have the right to vote for a Scottish Government that implements policies which will benefit Scotland. The polices themselves will be for the election in 2016.
I belevie from the research that I have done that there will be a change in the political landscape of Scotland if a YES vote is secured. The parties will have to change or become irrelevant... Tory and Labour parties will have to develop policies for an Independent Scotland - something they are refusing to do just now and who can blame them. Scottish MPs in Westminster will lose their seats ( might account for the behaviour of the scottish Affairs committee a little if you remember that all those Mps on that committee will be out of a job if there is a YES vote.) and some of them may head north to seek to influence society in an Independent Scotland by standing for other parties - I would welcome that. The SNP themselves would, according to many commentators, splinter and new parties like the Scottish Democratic Alliance will emerge with their policies and priorities to add to the debate.
This creates massive opportunity to be a force for good - not for the SNP - I have no idea who will lead a Government in and Independent Scotland. Alex salmond it may be but it may just as easily not be the SNP. This possibility to redefine Scotland and its government is a huge opportunity not to be missed. That is why I will vote YES. not because i love my husband:roll:; not because I hate english people; not because I am some stupid wee girl being conned by Alex salmond and his charms(?!) but because I beleive that an Independent Scotland gives us possibilities not available to us as part of the union.
Rob, you may not agree, You may shake your head and complain that i am a dreamer and vapid and lacking in intellect but i have put as much effort into making my decision over the last many years as you have in making yours. Over the next 2 years I will campaign for Independence.... not for the SNP as much as many unionist supprters would have us beleive its the same thing - it isnt. I will do that because I BELIEVE in the power of the Scottish Electorate to elect a parliament which is about people and their lives. Improvements and changes wont happen at once, they wont be implemented immediately and we might have to tighten our belts and pay a bit more in tax but actually I dont mind that.... Its beginning the process that is important ... creating the opportunity and working in whatever small way I can to create the opportunity for change and help people live better lives in a society that actually gives a .
Seriously I am not shaking, my head and you are not a dreamer, I equally share your hopes for a more kinder / benevolent society, but I dont believe that the seperatists have got the economics right, oil is a finite resource it will run out, and lets say in 50 years time oil in scotlands waters dries up..two impacts 1 Jobs 2 Energy, by absolutely no stretch of the imagination is renewable energy going to replace the jobs lost. At best we are being asked to believe a big gamble, remember the twaddle peddled about the Dounreay run down and how renewables would replace the jobs....nothing of any significance is happening. If we had devolved powers within a regional context ( you will agree with me that the Highlands and Islands have differing needs than central scotland ? ) fairly representing the unique needs of differing regions in Scotland, but still stay in UK / EU, then we have a better hedged bet than blindly leaping into the dark surely ? We both have the same aspirations for society, we only differ in the means on how they are to be achieved.
Seriously I am not shaking, my head and you are not a dreamer, I equally share your hopes for a more kinder / benevolent society, but I dont believe that the seperatists have got the economics right, oil is a finite resource it will run out, and lets say in 50 years time oil in scotlands waters dries up..two impacts 1 Jobs 2 Energy, by absolutely no stretch of the imagination is renewable energy going to replace the jobs lost. At best we are being asked to believe a big gamble, remember the twaddle peddled about the Dounreay run down and how renewables would replace the jobs....nothing of any significance is happening. If we had devolved powers within a regional context ( you will agree with me that the Highlands and Islands have differing needs than central scotland ? ) fairly representing the unique needs of differing regions in Scotland, but still stay in UK / EU, then we have a better hedged bet than blindly leaping into the dark surely ? We both have the same aspirations for society, we only differ in the means on how they are to be achieved.
I too dont beleive that renewables alone would replace oil but I will not be voting for any party to govern Scotland the first election after the referendum whose ONLY hope for Scotland's economy is renewables. There needs to be diversity in Industry and in business and to do that we have to have the power to create opportunities and jobs and innovation and investment and we also need borrowing powers and control of our own finances. There is no sign of that happening within a UK economy. I want to see what the green party has to offer, the new parties after the referendum and the SNP before I decide who I will vote for - youa re against ONE party's vision but that isnt all there is.
Absolutely the Highlands and Islands has different needs to the Central Belt and there is nothing to stop an Independent Scotland organising its democracy - its government in whatever way better suits the diverse economies and geography within Scotland. The current Scottish Government is what we were given - it isnt what an Independent Scotland has to have. The electoral Reform Society have already held meetings to discuss the type of democracy that people - ordinary people like you and me - would like to se if there was an Independent Scotland and I believe more are planned. As for the EU - I would be happy to remain part of the EU and I think they will allow us to do so - at least there is no evidence that the EU wont allow an Independent Scotland to be part of it. Independent but outward looking and part of the european community and the workd community as an independent nation seems like a good plan.
As for leaping into the dark???? Well we are in the dark about what the UK will look like in two three twenty thirty years.... Crikey five years ago no-one had even thought about the banking crisis. Also I do not believe that a UK government would offer anything like the devolved powers that we need - crikey they dont even want us to vote on THAT. I have found absolutely NO evidence that there is aspiration for change within the Westminster government - none. Without that aspiration there will be NO change. Like Frank fields report it will sit languishing on a shelf and whenever its raised the powers that be will say - you voted to stay in the union and thats that.
Currently within the Union The Scottish electorate votes for a westminster government which allocates money to Scotland based on their own priorities. These may include NHS reforms, welfare reforms. Increasing tuition fees, A replacement for Trident, a new rail link to Birmingham, elite sportsmen and women amongst other things.
I don't agree with this. Scotland enjoys more expenditure per head based than the rest of the UK, calculated through the Barnett formula and based upon maintaining the unique characteristics of Scottish geography and infrastructure.
John Little
16-Aug-12, 16:07
Also the arguments put forward about the failings of th UK government could equally apply to any region of the Uk. It ain't only Scotland who's unhappy with the government. Most people did not vote for Tory policies in the last election.
The problem is not the Union per se but the way it is set up.Very well.Change the setup - but do we really have to throw baby out with the bath water?
I want exactly the same goodies as you do - but I ain't gonna join an English National Party to get them- because I am British. To me, England is a region of the country I live in, no more, no less.
Not just that but one of the flagship policy areas of the SNP is renewable energy but C3 has been consistently anti-renewables throughout.
Very true Rheg, I dont like wind power at all but it wont stop me voting SNP. Tell me, whichever party you voted for were you 100% behind all their policies? If you have found a party that is perfect to your requirements then you are very lucky indeed!
Even with it's policy of wind power it is still by far the best party to vote for Scotland, the others come nowhere near!!
C3............:roll::roll:
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 16:20
I too dont beleive that renewables alone would replace oil but I will not be voting for any party to govern Scotland the first election after the referendum whose ONLY hope for Scotland's economy is renewables. There needs to be diversity in Industry and in business and to do that we have to have the power to create opportunities and jobs and innovation and investment and we also need borrowing powers and control of our own finances. There is no sign of that happening within a UK economy. I want to see what the green party has to offer, the new parties after the referendum and the SNP before I decide who I will vote for - youa re against ONE party's vision but that isnt all there is.
Absolutely the Highlands and Islands has different needs to the Central Belt and there is nothing to stop an Independent Scotland organising its democracy - its government in whatever way better suits the diverse economies and geography within Scotland. The current Scottish Government is what we were given - it isnt what an Independent Scotland has to have. The electoral Reform Society have already held meetings to discuss the type of democracy that people - ordinary people like you and me - would like to se if there was an Independent Scotland and I believe more are planned. As for the EU - I would be happy to remain part of the EU and I think they will allow us to do so - at least there is no evidence that the EU wont allow an Independent Scotland to be part of it. Independent but outward looking and part of the european community and the workd community as an independent nation seems like a good plan.
As for leaping into the dark???? Well we are in the dark about what the UK will look like in two three twenty thirty years.... Crikey five years ago no-one had even thought about the banking crisis. Also I do not believe that a UK government would offer anything like the devolved powers that we need - crikey they dont even want us to vote on THAT. I have found absolutely NO evidence that there is aspiration for change within the Westminster government - none. Without that aspiration there will be NO change. Like Frank fields report it will sit languishing on a shelf and whenever its raised the powers that be will say - you voted to stay in the union and thats that.
1There is only one majority party who wishes seperatism...the SNP, they hold absolute majority power dont they and have a clear agenda / vision...the greens are a minority pary and will always be so, if we vote for seperatism its still the SNIPs who hold power and its their economic policies that I dont agree with not now and certainly not if they by definition become the majority party in a seperate scotland
2 If we get devolved revenue powers then how these powers are used will be upto the majority party...SNP at the moment, and SNP after a yes vote
3 SInce gaining power the SNP have seperated the functions of Skills Development from HIE / SE, creating a new agency SDS, based in glasgow where all Skills Development issues nationally are taken, and all the evidence points to a central scotland /politically led agenda. Ditto the reform of HIE which stripped the regions economic agency of all real powers, Scottish Enterprise ( Central based ) has the real economic powers and all the behest of the SNP as they made the changes not UK government, so much for regional differences eh !!
4 I am currently being interviewed on a consultancy report by the FSB, acting on behalf of Scotlands SME's and guess what
£Millions are being spent on initiatives to encourage businesses to take on and train young people .However, the FSB suspects that many of these initiatives fail to take account of how small businesses operate ( 95% of Highland businesses employ less than 5 ) , the challenges they face, and the contribution they are already making to the economy. Sorry but this happened and is happening on an SNP watch. They have the powers and have misused them to the detriment of our regions economy. Ok I was being kind when I inferred a leap in the dark...its actually going to be a leap head first into a tightly controlled, central belt driven agenda....dont you know that the world ends at Perth !!! Hence my declared desire for proper regional initiatives first, logically, lets get this in place prior to any damned vote on seperatism...
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 16:30
Ok I admit it, this stuff does my nut in, I can always move come the glorious day or put up with things. But I predict one hell of a mess is comming.....Who will pick up RBS's bill and other due monies from bailed out banks, the UK tax payer or the new Scottish tax payer ? Fair play to split the bills isnt it or do you really think that whats left of the UK, NI England and Wales are going to say see ya, oh and your off the hook we will carry the debts, and of course all existing austerity measures / benefit cuts etc will be waved aside, everything being restored, wipe the slate/s clean .....GET REAL FOR GOODNESS SAKE...
Also the arguments put forward about the failings of th UK government could equally apply to any region of the Uk. It ain't only Scotland who's unhappy with the government. Most people did not vote for Tory policies in the last election.
The problem is not the Union per se but the way it is set up.Very well.Change the setup - but do we really have to throw baby out with the bath water?
I want exactly the same goodies as you do - but I ain't gonna join an English National Party to get them- because I am British. To me, England is a region of the country I live in, no more, no less.
Yes correct and what is feeding independence is political escapism rather than a desire for national independence.
John Little
16-Aug-12, 16:35
Yes correct and what is feeding independence is political escapism rather than a desire for national independence.That is my perception also.
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 16:36
Yes correct and what is feeding independence is political escapism rather than a desire for national independence.
To true escapism and fantasy, denying the complex realities behind the central issues
rob murray
16-Aug-12, 16:53
"If Scots really want independence for political or cultural reasons, they should go for it. National pride is impossible to price. But if they vote for independence they should do so in the knowledge that their country could end up as one of Europe's vulnerable, marginal economies. In the 18th century, Edinburgh's fine architecture and its Enlightenment role earned it the nickname “Athens of the North”. It would be a shame if that name became apt again for less positive reasons"
For full details on unbiased economic realities of independence see http://www.economist.com/node/21552564.
Very true Rheg, I dont like wind power at all but it wont stop me voting SNP. Tell me, whichever party you voted for were you 100% behind all their policies? If you have found a party that is perfect to your requirements then you are very lucky indeed!
Even with it's policy of wind power it is still by far the best party to vote for Scotland, the others come nowhere near!!
C3............:roll::roll:
It is not quite the same is it?
The SNP have created a package of policies for independence, each policy interdependent on the other with a view to show that independence is achievable, there is an ulterior motive, whereas British politics has evolved over a long time Without all that package coming into fruition then it falls down like a pack of cards. This is the fundamental change that Oddquine was talking about, things need to be different for it to happen otherwise Scotland may as well be in the Union, no point in going on as they are.
but it is an SNP vision alone.......and we live in a democracy.....
During independence, there is no going back. Politics will be skewed to the left. We will have to pay more tax and there will be less money to go around for investment to boost the economy, like squidge says, the emphasis will be on renewables to dig us out of recession, noble that may be but all the eggs are in one basket.
So rheghead thus far you have accused me of being deceitful, underhand, confused, half-hearted, over committed and romantic...
You have yet offered me no serious arguments, you simply make personal and judgemental comments about me and here we have yet another dismissal of me as a stupid woman blinded by love and unable to make my own mind up.
Rob I will decide on Independence on what is important to ME - you make your mind up on what is important to you.... If that is renewables then that is up to you. To suggest that I am being conned is also insulting and patronising.
It is really interesting that I - presenting a nationalist viewpoint has been subjected to such personal attacks when I try really hard not to indulge in that sort of behaviour within the arguments. why is that I wonder - neither of you have tried to influence me with reasoned arguments although rob's list bears a further look - my earlier research on the subject suggests its a one side says one thing and one another but I will get round to it. Instead you have rubbished my integrity and my intellect and yet both of you are intelligent men well able to present a case for the union - seems like insulting me and painting me a love sick gullible empty headed woman is more appetising to you.
If anyone needed any evidence of why there is a need for a Woman's group on Independence you have it right here. Shame on you
Or it could just be a reflection of how unpopular your position is?
Or it could just be a reflection of how unpopular your position is?
You are right Ducati and I never ask anyone to agree with me. I do not agree with many of the opinions here but I dont resort to name calling and patronising people. I may openly and vociferously disagree and I do and I do it often.
It could also be a reflection on how unpopular I am personally. That's just tough if it is the case.
The point is that my arguments were dismissed as being vacuous and of no substance and were of the "just you dont bother your silly wee head about it" type. It is not the first time nor the last time that I have been dismissed as such and it remains an issue which prevents women becoming involved in Politics.
The difference between Regions of England and Scotland is that Scotland is not a region of England - it is a country in its own right. Scotland has a monarch - shared with England but thats also true of Canada and Australia and Jamaica. None of the regions in England have been sovereign states in their own right for the last 1000 years! Thats not some idealogical issue by the way - it is what I was taught at School, history shows us that this is the case and it doesnt seem to be in doubt by the political parties. That is what makes it different to English regions. Scotland is a nation in its own right and therefore it shouldnt be surprising that a number of Scots are committed to independence for reasons of nationhood.
I do not agree with Rob that the future of an Independent Scotland is already defined by the SNP. I believe that the future of an Independent Scotland is in our hands - the voters. There is a lot of work going on at the moment for a Scottish Constitution, there is a lot of work going on to challenge the SNP on a variety of policies. I also dont agree that And actually if it was the SNP then it would not be them for ever. Rob rightly points out that the green party are a minority party but will that be the case in 2015? or 2020? or the SDA or a newly reenergised and leftified Scottish labour? Or even a tory party which has redefined itself? It is up to us to stand up and be counted and to press for the policies that we want..... that is what I will be doing over the next five, ten, twenty years. Who knows - I might be minister for women in a new Squidgey party.
squidge, you talk about fairness and equality but how can the break up of the UK be a positive thing for equality or fairness? By definition independence will make life very unfair and unequal to all Scots. It will mean higher taxes and less international prestige for all.
Equality means treating people the same, so why do you want Scots treated differently to the rest of Britain?
and btw, can you refresh my memory where I resorted to calling you a name please?
John Little
16-Aug-12, 20:00
Whoever said that Scotland was a region of England???
You are right Ducati and I never ask anyone to agree with me. I do not agree with many of the opinions here but I dont resort to name calling and patronising people. I may openly and vociferously disagree and I do and I do it often.
It could also be a reflection on how unpopular I am personally. That's just tough if it is the case.
The point is that my arguments were dismissed as being vacuous and of no substance and were of the "just you dont bother your silly wee head about it" type. It is not the first time nor the last time that I have been dismissed as such and it remains an issue which prevents women becoming involved in Politics.
The difference between Regions of England and Scotland is that Scotland is not a region of England - it is a country in its own right. Scotland has a monarch - shared with England but thats also true of Canada and Australia and Jamaica. None of the regions in England have been sovereign states in their own right for the last 1000 years! Thats not some idealogical issue by the way - it is what I was taught at School, history shows us that this is the case and it doesnt seem to be in doubt by the political parties. That is what makes it different to English regions. Scotland is a nation in its own right and therefore it shouldnt be surprising that a number of Scots are committed to independence for reasons of nationhood.
I do not agree with Rob that the future of an Independent Scotland is already defined by the SNP. I believe that the future of an Independent Scotland is in our hands - the voters. There is a lot of work going on at the moment for a Scottish Constitution, there is a lot of work going on to challenge the SNP on a variety of policies. I also dont agree that And actually if it was the SNP then it would not be them for ever. Rob rightly points out that the green party are a minority party but will that be the case in 2015? or 2020? or the SDA or a newly reenergised and leftified Scottish labour? Or even a tory party which has redefined itself? It is up to us to stand up and be counted and to press for the policies that we want..... that is what I will be doing over the next five, ten, twenty years. Who knows - I might be minister for women in a new Squidgey party.
Surely the future of the UK is in the hands of us, the voters. Change can be made to happen if there is a will. I keep questioning the will attached the independence movement. It is seen as a panacea, I just don't see it myself.
rob murray
17-Aug-12, 09:20
You are right Ducati and I never ask anyone to agree with me. I do not agree with many of the opinions here but I dont resort to name calling and patronising people. I may openly and vociferously disagree and I do and I do it often.
It could also be a reflection on how unpopular I am personally. That's just tough if it is the case.
The point is that my arguments were dismissed as being vacuous and of no substance and were of the "just you dont bother your silly wee head about it" type. It is not the first time nor the last time that I have been dismissed as such and it remains an issue which prevents women becoming involved in Politics.
The difference between Regions of England and Scotland is that Scotland is not a region of England - it is a country in its own right. Scotland has a monarch - shared with England but thats also true of Canada and Australia and Jamaica. None of the regions in England have been sovereign states in their own right for the last 1000 years! Thats not some idealogical issue by the way - it is what I was taught at School, history shows us that this is the case and it doesnt seem to be in doubt by the political parties. That is what makes it different to English regions. Scotland is a nation in its own right and therefore it shouldnt be surprising that a number of Scots are committed to independence for reasons of nationhood.
I do not agree with Rob that the future of an Independent Scotland is already defined by the SNP. I believe that the future of an Independent Scotland is in our hands - the voters. There is a lot of work going on at the moment for a Scottish Constitution, there is a lot of work going on to challenge the SNP on a variety of policies. I also dont agree that And actually if it was the SNP then it would not be them for ever. Rob rightly points out that the green party are a minority party but will that be the case in 2015? or 2020? or the SDA or a newly reenergised and leftified Scottish labour? Or even a tory party which has redefined itself? It is up to us to stand up and be counted and to press for the policies that we want..... that is what I will be doing over the next five, ten, twenty years. Who knows - I might be minister for women in a new Squidgey party.
I agree with latter points, no one has a crystal ball, politics is fluid, so who knows the shape of a future independant scotland should there be one, the irony may well be that the SNIP's get a yes vote through, only to find themselves say after a 5 year period holding the can for all Scotlands ill's, being replaced by a leftish rainbow alliance as I cant see marginalised scots tories being in a power brokerage position for at least a generation
Independence is a 50/50 horserace, you pays your money you takes your chance. Whats the benefits to Scotland? Many of us have a preconceived notion that we will have control of the North Sea oil revenues, I personaly can't see Westminster handing over their golden goose. I also believe that taxation will rise in Scotland, I believe that I pay more than enough tax as it is now. Our education system fails boatloads of children, we read about school leavers leaving school every year who can barely read and write. Our health care is open to abuse and has been for years. The welfare system has been and is still being abused day in and day out, pensioners are having their pensions murdered. We have a public sector employment system that the private sector cannot afford to fund anymore. On paper there are arguments that Scotland could go it alone if we gain Independence, on paper I can draw you a picture of a pig flying or a man carrying an adult Elephant. I get the impression that Westminster secretly want Scotland to have Independence and if they do hand control of the oil over to Scotland, then that tells me that Westminster have something else up their sleeve, most likely the oil found in the Falkland islands area, which explains why Argentina have taken up an interest again. Anyway I think women for Independence is very insulting as most women who I have met are very independent, their message should be more clear Women for an Independent Scotland. As with most groups they have some very good and interesting points and some that are mere folly. I hope that good sense and truth prevail. Goodluck to one and all.
In the words of the late Sid Waddel, "Game On".
rob murray
17-Aug-12, 10:07
Maverick, good conspiracy theories ! as you say game on
Maverick, good conspiracy theories ! as you say game onAs they say Rob, time will tell....
I am the first to admit that I dont understand the economic argument - in fact i say it here again and again. There is argument and counter argument about what is and isnt possible in an economic Scotland. However there is one truth amongst all the flannery and flummery and that is that when you get down to it, in an Independent Scotland the money raised in Scotland will be spent in Scotland on priorities decided by the Scottish people through using their vote.
We vote for a government based on what is in their manifesto and we decide. Currently within the Union The Scottish electorate votes for a westminster government which allocates money to Scotland based on their own priorities. These may include NHS reforms, welfare reforms. Increasing tuition fees, A replacement for Trident, a new rail link to Birmingham, elite sportsmen and women amongst other things.
Scottish prioities may not include any or all of those. In addition, areas where the Scottish government - and I am talking future scottish governements not necessarily the SNP - may wish to prioritise a Scottish National Health service, Dualling the A9, tax reforms, Innovation in welfare, growth and job creation, free higher education and a revamp of the social care system. Because the current set up allows Westminster to base the amount on their own priorities, it ties the hands of any Scottish government to address its own priorities as fully as it could do if it was the government of an Independent Scotland. for me the important thing about the Economics of an independent Scotland is that we will have full control of our budgets, our priorities and our policies.
Now to oil and renewables, Politicians and the media tell us all the time that oil will run out and I am sure that it will but industry and technology do not stand still. the industrial landscape is not static it changes and grows. Even left to its own devices it does that with a programme of scientific development and industrial growth - better lending and support of new innovative businesses then we can change and grow so that by the time the oil runs out Scotland no longer needs oil. Now that maybe renewables or it maybe other things. I dont beleive we can be the Saudi Arabia of renewables but neither do I beleive that the oil will run out the day after Scotland gains Independence.
As for welfare, millions and millions of pounds are being wasted on the welfare reforms which the government is driving through just now. There is no innovation, there is no desire to support or assist the unemployed, the sick or the disabled. The UK government fiddles around the edges and ends up paying over £100 million to ATOS to deliver fitness to work interviews and because they make such a hash of it they then have to pay £48 million for the appeals procedures. Not satisfied with this they then give the SAME company another contract to deliver welfare reductions. As for help for unemployed people this and previous governments put the responsibilty for help to private companies whose main aim is to make a profit. the chief Executive of one of these companies recently gave herself a £9 million bonus, whilst some of her companies were being investigated for fraud. £9 million pounds from the profits made off placing unemployed people into work - £9 million!!!! and the government spends all its time and energy persuading us that those on welfare are the scoundrels, the skivers and the dishonest ones. So much so that in a recent survey, 70% of people thought that the vast majority of people on benefits were getting more than they were entitled to through either fraud or lying about their situation or illness. They thought that 55% of claimants were doing this when in actual fact the figure is 3%.
Child poverty - this government commissioned Frank Field to complete a report on Poverty and life chances which he did and which makes interesting reading. They then completely ignored its recommendations and have done nothing to tackle the poverty which is strangling the aspirations of many children.
What I see when I look at the Westminster style of politics, of governance is a government which cares little for "society" as a whole. Accross both parties - Labour and tory and as for the Lib Dems they have lost all credibillity. I see absolutely no impetus to change society to make it better - how can there be impetus, those in the positions of power have utterly no idea of the degradation and difficulties people on benefits for example, might feel. IT is like a book in a foreign language to them. They can look and have an attempt at uttering the right words but they have no idea what those words really mean.
So what will a YES vote in the referendum mean for me.... Well it will mean that we have the opportunity to begin a process which will hopefully lead to a better society and some of the issues and dreams I and many others have being addressed.
Did you read that - The opportunity to begin..... The referendum is about democracy.... it is about having the democratic right to vote for an Independent Scotland and FROM then to have the right to vote for a Scottish Government that implements policies which will benefit Scotland. The polices themselves will be for the election in 2016.
I belevie from the research that I have done that there will be a change in the political landscape of Scotland if a YES vote is secured. The parties will have to change or become irrelevant... Tory and Labour parties will have to develop policies for an Independent Scotland - something they are refusing to do just now and who can blame them. Scottish MPs in Westminster will lose their seats ( might account for the behaviour of the scottish Affairs committee a little if you remember that all those Mps on that committee will be out of a job if there is a YES vote.) and some of them may head north to seek to influence society in an Independent Scotland by standing for other parties - I would welcome that. The SNP themselves would, according to many commentators, splinter and new parties like the Scottish Democratic Alliance will emerge with their policies and priorities to add to the debate.
This creates massive opportunity to be a force for good - not for the SNP - I have no idea who will lead a Government in and Independent Scotland. Alex salmond it may be but it may just as easily not be the SNP. This possibility to redefine Scotland and its government is a huge opportunity not to be missed. That is why I will vote YES. not because i love my husband:roll:; not because I hate english people; not because I am some stupid wee girl being conned by Alex salmond and his charms(?!) but because I beleive that an Independent Scotland gives us possibilities not available to us as part of the union. i have yet to see an argument that the same or better opportunity for change is available within the union.
Rob, you may not agree, You may shake your head and complain that i am a dreamer and vapid and lacking in intellect but i have put as much effort into making my decision over the last many years as you have in making yours. Over the next 2 years I will campaign for Independence.... not for the SNP as much as many unionist supprters would have us beleive its the same thing - it isnt. I will do that because I BELIEVE in the power of the Scottish Electorate to elect a parliament which is about people and their lives. Improvements and changes wont happen at once, they wont be implemented immediately and we might have to tighten our belts and pay a bit more in tax but actually I dont mind that.... Its beginning the process that is important ... creating the opportunity and working in whatever small way I can to create the opportunity for change and help people live better lives in a society that actually wants the best for all its citizens
Way too much there to reply to but one point shouts to me. Why is it the Government's job to change society?
Surely society evolves, anything else is interference and very, very dangerous. That is why I believe the least interference in peoples lives the better from the government and why I am happy for them to be so far away. :D
:D
I should imagine that some people would not be too happy if a conservative government started fiddling with society to make it 'better' :eek:
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