The Changing Face of Christmas [Archive]

WeeBurd

30-Nov-06, 21:26

There have been one or two threads about Christmas/ Christmas Lights/ Christmas Decorations this on the Org, and they have got me thinking...

There are several groups of people - those who hate Christmas (Golach ;) ) and would rather all the gaudy decor was left in the loft for good; those who adore the Christmas spirit, getting tree's decorated, sharing presents, and spending time with the family; and those who remind us what it's all about, the true religious sentiment behind Christmas.

Is there room for all these people? Does Christmas have to be restricted by traditional rules and writings, should it remain ONLY for those who wish to celebrate it as a significant date on the religious calendar?

Or is it time we acknowledged RESPECTFULLY that a large percentage of the population celebrate Christmas as a non-religious festival? A time for being with family, sharing gifts with those you love, sending cards to remind those far away that we still think of them, having a feast fit for a king and not being fit to move afterwards, singing jolly songs that make us laugh and smile, lighting up the dark winter nights with beautiful colour and light on our houses.

Bobinovich

01-Dec-06, 03:38

I'm with you on the last paragraph WeeBurd. No religious overtones in the Bob's household - just fun and seeing the kids faces light up. A nice family meal and some great memories to treasure.

sassylass

01-Dec-06, 06:08

Definitely, there is room for everyone to celebrate (or not) in whichever way best suits them. In our family, it's all about being with loved ones, and giving of oneself.

Ricco

01-Dec-06, 08:53

There are several groups of people - those who hate Christmas (Golach ;) ) and would rather all the gaudy decor was left in the loft for good; those who adore the Christmas spirit, getting tree's decorated, sharing presents, and spending time with the family; and those who remind us what it's all about, the true religious sentiment behind Christmas.

I am sure Golach doesn't hate Christmas - just all the commercial hype that goes into it these days. No doubt he enjoys his wee dram and the presents as much as anyone else. (PM me, Golach and yours will be in the post)

I'm with you on the last paragraph WeeBurd. No religious overtones in the Bob's household - just fun and seeing the kids faces light up. A nice family meal and some great memories to treasure.

I think it is a great shame that we have abandoned our faith in this country. Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not a regular churchy or bible reader but I do worry about the way we get so heated and anti-faith. Other cultures have a more pragmatic and comfortable relationship with their faiths.

Definitely, there is room for everyone to celebrate (or not) in whichever way best suits them. In our family, it's all about being with loved ones, and giving of oneself.

I like Sassy's outlook. What suits you best; Christmas should be enjoyable, time with the family, lots of good-natured cheer. If we drop the relgious aspect we can't rightly call it CHRIST-mas any more. It'll become "Merry Xmas everybody" - yuk!

golach

01-Dec-06, 10:44

I am sure Golach doesn't hate Christmas - just all the commercial hype that goes into it these days. No doubt he enjoys his wee dram and the presents as much as anyone else. (PM me, Golach and yours will be in the post)
Ricco, how well you know me I do not hate Xmas, just the commercial hype and nonsense, back in the 1960's I was a young Postman and I saw the amount of money wasted on badly wrapped packages and badly addressed cards that would never get to their desinations,also the moaning minnies ( "Postie you have lost one of my important cards from Auntie Euphamia who lives in Outer Mongolia").
That was also when I was a young father and yes one of the delights of being a parent is the eyes of my bairns growing larger and larger as the paper came off their presents on Xmas morning.
I am not a religious person but I do not condem anyone for being one, IMO Christmas is a deeply religious festival and should be treated so. Not as it is now too commercialised just look at the adverts on TV and its all geared to get you to buy, buy, buy and for the kids to shout I want, want, want.
I do enjoy opening a present or two and having a dram in the company of my family, I like cooking the Xmas dinner I do it all Mrs G does the washing up.
I just do not like all the hoo hah to the lead up to the 25th of Dec, in my household we (Mrs G and I) have more arguments heated discussions about this time of year.
Contact me on the 4th of Jan 2007, when its all over [lol]

WeeBurd

01-Dec-06, 13:25

Apologies, may I just clarify, I'm not anti-religious by any stretch, however many people nowadays do not treat Christmas as a religious time, but they do treat it as an important family time. Are they wrong?

Should Christmas remain the sole pleasure of those who are of a strong religious faith? Can we accept that Christmas means different things to different people?

Bobinovich

01-Dec-06, 14:58

I make no bones about my lack of faith - I was dragged to church too young to understand what it was all supposed to be about. I resented my mother for making me go but as a single parent she did what she had to do. I am now an athiest living what I consider to be an fruitful and honest (!) life without the need for religion.

Even now with my own kids, I hate the fact that through school and Beavers, etc. the Christian faith is being pushed into their lives.

Feel free to rename Christmas! It'll make no difference to me as it's simply a holiday and a time for me to spend with my family.

roblovesplastic

01-Dec-06, 17:52

changilass

01-Dec-06, 18:17

In our house it is a family get together, not rightly bothered if its name is changed to december holidays or any other name as our house is non religious.

Happy holidays to all believers and non believers alike:D

willowbankbear

01-Dec-06, 18:20

Ok heres a biggy, but what has December and the celebration of the 25th of December turned into?

Is it a celebration of the birth of anything?:)
is it a holiday like new year?
is is a family get together?

answers on a forum, merry xmas abody.

Who`s birthday is it like? Saint xmas or Saint Santa?
No, Im working
Aye for some

forum answers there Rob Lp hope its sufficient for ye;)

unicorn

01-Dec-06, 18:49

Who`s birthday is it like? Saint xmas or Saint Santa?

It's my Dad's birthday :)

willowbankbear

01-Dec-06, 20:17

I forgot, its Shortie Plowman fae Papigoe`s as well[lol]

oldmarine

03-Dec-06, 01:53

sweetpea

03-Dec-06, 01:59

I think of this time of year as space to gather your thoughts and reflect on what has passed

Fran

03-Dec-06, 02:39

My Christmas will be extra special for me this year as I will be spending it with my family, the first time in many years, just sad that my son wont be here. It will be a wonderful time for me, happier than the previous ones, and it will be great to see my grandson open his presents for the first time. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_1_129.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZN) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_81.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZN)

scorrie

03-Dec-06, 15:02

Christmas has next to nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ these days. Christ often does not get his name included anymore. It is often referred to as Xmas and that X-Factor is usually represented by spending money.

People are free to make of Christmas what they wish and have done so for all of my lifetime. The further it is divorced from religion, the happier the stores are because they can expect an avalanche of spending as people celebrate by "Decking the Tills with Boughs of Lolly"

I vote for renaming Christmas as £mas

Merry Quidmas!!

WeeBurd

03-Dec-06, 15:09

I vote for both: religious time and family time. They can be celebrated together and can be equally important.

They can be indeed, however my query is can they be separate? Are we as a society ready to accept that for many people Christmas is only one of the above? I think, from some of the responses on here, we're not quite at that point yet, although a good few individuals are...

On the board we've had grumps of people putting up decorations too early; putting up too many decorations; wasting energy with outdoor lights; spending too much on presents; losing faith in religion... what happened to "each to one's own"? You celebrate Christmas as a religious festival. I'll celebrate it as my family time, I'll make my house look pretty, I'll buy my family some gifts to let them know I'm thinking of them etc.

I think the only valid grump out there is the one regarding excessive energy consumption with outdoor lighting, but that's just my opinion mind!

DrSzin

03-Dec-06, 15:35

Christmas has next to nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ these days. Christ often does not get his name included anymore. It is often referred to as Xmas and that X-Factor is usually represented by spending money.The first sentence is undoubtedly true. But the origin of the X in Xmas seems to to be Christian:

The abbreviation of "Xmas" for Christmas, long reviled by many conservative and Low Church Christians, is not nearly as blasphemous as many contend. Rather than a sacrilegious removal of "Christ" from Christmas and replacing him with an unknown, as some claim, the "Xmas" abbreviation has a long history in the church. In Greek, the language in which the New Testament was first written, "chi" (c or C), which is almost identical to the Roman alphabet "X," is the first letter of the word "Christ" (cristoV, or as it would be written in older manuscripts, CRISTOS). In fact, the symbol of the fish in the early church came from using the first letter of several titles used for Jesus (Jesus Christ Son of God Savior) that when combined spelled the Greek word for fish (icquV, ichthus).

In the early days of printing when typesetting was done by hand and was very tedious and expensive, abbreviations were common. The church began to use the abbreviation "X" for the word "Christ" in religious publications. From there, the abbreviation moved into general use in newspapers and other publications, and "Xmas" became an accepted way of printing "Christmas."

The above quote is from here (http://www.cresourcei.org/cyxmas.html), there's a longer explanation here (http://www.cresourcei.org/symbols/xmasorigin.html), and a quick Google leads to a whole host of articles which say the same thing so I would guess there's something in the claim.

I hadn't posted in this thread previously because I think it's a non-issue. My answers to WeeBurd's original questions are obviously "yes", "no" and "yes" respectively.

canuck

03-Dec-06, 19:02

DrSzin you have addressed the issue of the origin of the X in Xmas. Chi is often used to represent Christ. And sometimes Chi Rho or XR. Years ago as a student, I developed my own shorthand for religious and Biblical terms using the first letter of the Greek form of the word. It sometimes makes it difficult for people to read my stuff. Theo in Chi is what we Delta in the Epsilon.

It's kind of like roblovesplastic's text speak which reminds me of his questions.

Ok heres a biggy, but what has December and the celebration of the 25th of December turned into?

Is it a celebration of the birth of anything?:)
is it a holiday like new year?
is is a family get together?

answers on a forum, merry xmas abody.

1) In my household we celebrated 3 birthdays the week before Christmas so by the 25th we were well into the mode. And 21 years ago I spent December in a very, very pregnant state myself with an early January delivery.
2) There is a New Year aspect to Christmas in that it represents the new year, the days growing in light. But I think what rob is asking, does it have any other meaning than an excuse to have a party.
3) Family get togethers are great for they affirm our need to have relationships and the power and creativity that are in those relationships.

For me the primary focus of Christmas is the religious aspect of it. I abhor the market place extravagance and cultural nightmare that it has become. But I don't resent the world for wanting to share the celebration with the church even if many modern $mas revelers have no religious belief.

mums angels

03-Dec-06, 19:36

DrSzin

03-Dec-06, 19:54

Christmas IS a christian holiday so therefore we should all remember the reason behind it. It is nice that familys and freinds come together at this time though. I do wonder why those non-religious people bother with it if they do not celebrate the meaning behind it ..but each to there own. I wouldn't celebrate Diwali , honakah or thanksgiving which are all times for different religions to get together.WeeBurd, it seems I was wrong. This post indicates that it's an issue for at least one Orger. Are there any more?

It sometimes makes it difficult for people to read my stuff. Theo in Chi is what we Delta in the Epsilon. Aye, it's difficult all right. :confused:

Edit: Ok, I understand what "Theo in Chi" means, but I'm still working on "Delta in the Epsilon". It sounds like Analysis (a branch of mathematics) to me:

For every epsilon > 0, there exists a delta > 0 ...

Hey, that sounds a bit like a sermon! :)

scorrie

03-Dec-06, 20:59

The first sentence is undoubtedly true. But the origin of the X in Xmas seems to to be Christian:

The abbreviation of "Xmas" for Christmas, long reviled by many conservative and Low Church Christians, is not nearly as blasphemous as many contend. Rather than a sacrilegious removal of "Christ" from Christmas and replacing him with an unknown, as some claim, the "Xmas" abbreviation has a long history in the church. In Greek, the language in which the New Testament was first written, "chi" (c or C), which is almost identical to the Roman alphabet "X," is the first letter of the word "Christ" (cristoV, or as it would be written in older manuscripts, CRISTOS). In fact, the symbol of the fish in the early church came from using the first letter of several titles used for Jesus (Jesus Christ Son of God Savior) that when combined spelled the Greek word for fish (icquV, ichthus).

When I was at Primary School I was told that the X in Xmas stood for the cross which Christ was crucified upon. I have never really liked the term for no other reason than it looks a bit naff and is used through laziness (erm, shorthand) as much as anything else.

Looking at the Greek words for Christ, it makes me wonder whether the actual terminology should be "Merry Fishmas"?

canuck

03-Dec-06, 21:23

Edit: Ok, I understand what "Theo in Chi" means, but I'm still working on "Delta in the Epsilon". It sounds like Analysis (a branch of mathematics) to me:

For every epsilon > 0, there exists a delta > 0 ...

Hey, that sounds a bit like a sermon! :)

I never thought that anyone would have tried to figure this out.
And I even made a mistake myself. Theo is god, but I should have written theta. Chi for Christ. Delta is for didake (teach) and epsilon is for ecclesia which means church.

My early sermons did sound like lab reports and I vaguely remember once trying out a simple mathematical proof on some theological point I was trying to make. So, yeah, you have a bit of a sermon going there.

When I was at Primary School I was told that the X in Xmas stood for the cross which Christ was crucified upon. I have never really liked the term for no other reason than it looks a bit naff and is used through laziness (erm, shorthand) as much as anything else.

Looking at the Greek words for Christ, it makes me wonder whether the actual terminology should be "Merry Fishmas"?

The X definitely comes from the Chi in Christos. But ichthus (fish in English)
is Jesus Christ God's Son Saviour. That's more of an Easter theme than a Christmas theme.

scorrie

03-Dec-06, 22:33

And I even made a mistake myself. Theo is god

When I was a lad there was only one Theo and that was Lt Theo Kojak.

Who luvs ya baby ;o)

mums angels

04-Dec-06, 00:05

WeeBurd, it seems I was wrong. This post indicates that it's an issue for at least one Orger. Are there any more?

Aye, it's difficult all right. :confused:

Edit: Ok, I understand what "Theo in Chi" means, but I'm still working on "Delta in the Epsilon". It sounds like Analysis (a branch of mathematics) to me:

For every epsilon > 0, there exists a delta > 0 ...

Hey, that sounds a bit like a sermon! :)

Not an issue at all DrSzin...as i said each to their own...i know several non- religious people who celebrate christmas but only for getting together e.t.c which i have no problem with ..just find it a bit odd...why not celebrate on the other holidays too...i suppose its because xmas is much more commercial

WeeBurd

04-Dec-06, 00:08

Thank you everyone, for your contributions.

Certainly, my interpretation here, is that people who are non-religious are having their own non-religious celebrations at the same time as others are celebrating the religious festival that is Christmas. Surely the December is not soley contracted out to Christians for their use only?

This thread is not a dig at religion or those who chose to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus. I guess I'm just trying to gauge others opinions on Christmas as a non-religious celebration, is it socially acceptable?

There's no religion involved in our Christmas celebrations, but plenty of love, warmth, happiness and joy. Does that make us bad or disrespectful people for choosing not to remember it's religious roots? In my opinion no, but I think some would disagree!

DrSzin

04-Dec-06, 01:15

When I was at Primary School I was told that the X in Xmas stood for the cross which Christ was crucified upon. I have never really liked the term for no other reason than it looks a bit naff and is used through laziness (erm, shorthand) as much as anything else. I think I was told that too, and I was also told that the X replaced Jesus' name with a bland X and should therefore be avoided. It seems they were wrong. Like you, I tend not to use it because I think it looks a bit naff.

I never thought that anyone would have tried to figure this out.

And I even made a mistake myself. Theo is god, but I should have written theta. Chi for Christ. Delta is for didake (teach) and epsilon is for ecclesia which means church.Don't worry, I figured out the first bit, mistake or no mistake. But the second bit was way beyond me.

Not an issue at all DrSzin...as i said each to their own...i know several non- religious people who celebrate christmas but only for getting together e.t.c which i have no problem with ..just find it a bit odd...why not celebrate on the other holidays too...i suppose its because xmas is much more commercialI too know several (well, several-hundred!) non-religious people who celebrate Christmas. Indeed, that statement applies to almost everyone I know! As scorrie pointed out early in this thread, "Christmas has next to nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ these days." For most people, Christmas is a midwinter festival which gives them a break from work when the weather is inclement and the days are short and dark - something that's perhaps more akin to the ancient celebrations of Yuletide or Winter Solstice. The Christian connection is now coincidental for many (perhaps most) people - only the name remains.

If you're a Christian, do you celebrate the pagan festival that is Hallowe'en? If so, why not celebrate the other pagan festivals too? Perhaps it's because Hallowe'en is more commercial than the others - whatever they are. :D

I guess I'm just trying to gauge others opinions on Christmas as a non-religious celebration, is it socially acceptable?WeeBurd, I'm still not sure why you started this thread. I think you're asking this question circa 50 years too late. Indeed, I suspect some people are beginning to wonder which planet you're living on - of course it's socially acceptable! Not only that, it's surely the norm.

WeeBurd

04-Dec-06, 10:28

WeeBurd, I'm still not sure why you started this thread. I think you're asking this question circa 50 years too late. Indeed, I suspect some people are beginning to wonder which planet you're living on - of course it's socially acceptable! Not only that, it's surely the norm.

Doc, I ask as I'm sick of hearing people say "you must remember the true meaning of Christmas, blah, blah, blah". It's time we accept that Christmas means different things to different people. Simple as that. If you choose not to celebrate it in a religious fashion, thats fine. If you choose to celebrate it as a religious festival, that's fine.

DrSzin

04-Dec-06, 11:09

Absolutely.

Perhaps you should suggest that "people" take off their blinkers and stop pretending that 21st-century Christmas is the religious festival it once was. I do. :)

canuck

04-Dec-06, 14:58

If you're a Christian, do you celebrate the pagan festival that is Hallowe'en? If so, why not celebrate the other pagan festivals too? Perhaps it's because Hallowe'en is more commercial than the others - whatever they are. :D

There aren't many stand alone Christian festivals out there. Most of them come from either pagan or Jewish roots. Christmas itself is a perfect example of an ancient pagan festival of new year and light which became the perfect teaching tool to introduce the concept of new dawn, light etc in the Christian message. This only worked in the Northern Hemisphere, but southern regions adopted it. All Saints Day was once a huge celebration and it quite rightly came the day following Hallowe'en. Easter of course is connected to Jewish Passover. Those roots go back into antiquity. Pentecost and Harvest Thanksgiving were Hebrew harvest festivals, quite obviously with pagan origins because of their economic food producing value.

WeeBurd

04-Dec-06, 16:35

There aren't many stand alone Christian festivals out there. Most of them come from either pagan or Jewish roots. Christmas itself is a perfect example of an ancient pagan festival of new year and light which became the perfect teaching tool to introduce the concept of new dawn, light etc in the Christian message. This only worked in the Northern Hemisphere, but southern regions adopted it. All Saints Day was once a huge celebration and it quite rightly came the day following Hallowe'en. Easter of course is connected to Jewish Passover. Those roots go back into antiquity. Pentecost and Harvest Thanksgiving were Hebrew harvest festivals, quite obviously with pagan origins because of their economic food producing value.

Canuck, I have no clue where all the festivals come from, so thank you muchly for helping out here!:D

So, those who cry "remember what it's all about" are really talking nonsense, as it was a pagan festival which was adapted to suit Christian teachings? I guess it's going full circle, where people are now adapting it to suit their own wishes...

Doc, I'm neither so blunt nor so eloquent as you! [lol]

WeeBurd

04-Dec-06, 16:38

Not an issue at all DrSzin...as i said each to their own...i know several non- religious people who celebrate christmas but only for getting together e.t.c which i have no problem with ..just find it a bit odd...why not celebrate on the other holidays too...i suppose its because xmas is much more commercial

Mums Angels, I think alot of it also comes down to holidays - you generally get a reasonable amount of time off at Christmas, allowing you to plan family gatherings in advance. Most people are luck if they get a long weekend at Easter, and that's about it.