View Full Version : Aurora Shooting
I'm not going to ask what your thoughts are on the shooting as with such a horrific event I'd like to think it's fairly obvious people's disgust at such an incident. What I am going to ask though is this;
Should America tighten their laws on their gun culture?
billmoseley
22-Jul-12, 20:32
i suspect that no matter how tight the laws if you want to do something like this then you would find a way
i suspect that no matter how tight the laws if you want to do something like this then you would find a way
Now billmoseley, don't get off topic here. We can't presume that this would've happened whether he had a gun or a blade or a crossbow. Maybe the guns gave him a form of control he wouldn't have got with another weapon.
The fact of the matter is this; he bought four guns, legally, & he purchased 6500 rounds, legally. & look what has happened because of it. The only time he broke the law was when he fired the weapons towards these people.
I fail to see how Bill's post was off topic?
Tragic and horrific as this incident was, I think that if someone decides that they want to commit mass murder then they will find a way. It could be as in this case, with legally purchased guns or in a different manner again with items obtained legally or illegally.
In the short to medium time frame, I think the USA should make semi-automatic and automatic loading weapons ownership illegal. There is no defensive reason (the whole premise for the right to bear arms) why a person should have these on their person.
I fail to see how Bill's post was off topic?
Tragic and horrific as this incident was, I think that if someone decides that they want to commit mass murder then they will find a way. It could be as in this case, with legally purchased guns or in a different manner again with items obtained legally or illegally.
If you are failing to see why the post was off-topic, then you aren't looking hard enough.
"I think that if someone decides that they want to commit mass murder then they will find a way."
We do not know what this guy was thinking, so it's ignorant for us to presume anything else other than what happened.
Should America tighten their laws on their gun culture? This is the question on the table.
If the "if they want to commit mass murder they'll find a way" applies, then why have any gun controls at all. Let's make it easier for them!
Angel...
If the "if they want to commit mass murder they'll find a way" applies, then why have any gun controls at all. Let's make it easier for them!
Angel...
It's plain & simple for me;
America needs to tighten their laws on firearms.
I can't say anymore as I feel this is enough said.
I'm opening this up here as I'm on an American forum where I brought this up also. They feel that everything is fine & that their laws shouldn't be changed. They feel that Joe Blogg's & Mr. X have the right from 1791 to own & use a firearm.
Personally, I find that rather frightening that people think like this.
cptdodger
22-Jul-12, 23:25
You find it frightening that people think like that because you were not raised in a country that thinks it is their god given right to own a gun. It's more than tightening their laws on gun control that's needed, it is a question of their Constitution, that has to change. And how does America try to prevent future shootings in Schools ? They allow students to carry concealed weapons - fighting fire with fire? I do not understand the reasoning behind that, at all. However, that is the mentality you are dealing with.
You find it frightening that people think like that because you were not raised in a country that thinks it is their god given right to own a gun. It's more than tightening their laws on gun control that's needed, it is a question of their Constitution, that has to change. And how does America try to prevent future shootings in Schools ? They allow students to carry concealed weapons - fighting fire with fire? I do not understand the reasoning behind that, at all. However, that is the mentality you are dealing with.
I realise from the mentality of the other forum that their thinking on the subject is most definitely different than our thinking.
I want to know what orgers think the USA should do to stop this from happening again. Should America tighten their laws on their gun culture?
I want to know what orgers think the USA should do to stop this from happening again. Should America tighten their laws on their gun culture?
Whatever other orgers think is irrelevant.
The government of the USA will do what their people demand, and their people currently demand the right to bear arms.
Their country, and whatever doens't affect anyone else, is their choice.
Whatever other orgers think is irrelevant.
Everybody's opinion is relevant, theone.
Should America tighten their laws on their gun culture?
You are asking the wrong question, it should be.
What would the difference be, if any, if The United States Tightened up the Laws on Buying and Selling Hand Guns, Rifles, Semi-Automatic and Automatic Weapons.
As far as I can see the only Difference would be that the Weapon Sellers would put their prices up and make more profit.
You would still get the odd Dipstick going out and gunning down as many people as they can just for the fun of it.
You are asking the wrong question, it should be.
What would the difference be, if any, if The United States Tightened up the Laws on Buying and Selling Hand Guns, Rifles, Semi-Automatic and Automatic Weapons.
As far as I can see the only Difference would be that the Weapon Sellers would put their prices up and make more profit.
You would still get the odd Dipstick going out and gunning down as many people as they can just for the fun of it.
No.
The question is this;
Should America tighten their laws on their gun culture?
You're question is about profit, going towards the seller.
Imagine if me, you, anyone else here just randomly walking into a store & buying a firearm.
In America, it seems, it's the norm. & more so, it's accepted.
Then they wonder why this type of thing happens...
Everybody's opinion is relevant, theone.
No, everyone's opinion might be worthy, just, or well intentioned, but relevance is a completely different matter.
I could provide my opinion, but, as a Scotsman living in Caithness, I have no influence over changing the constitution of the USA.
Therefore, my opinion is irrelevant.
Therefore, my opinion is irrelevant.
Naw.
A major event has happened here. & to think that our opinion is irrelevant is against human nature.
I think, therefore I am.
I think, in my opinion, that the USA needs to restrict their gun laws to hunters, cops & army personnel, ex-cop & ex-army personnel also. & If you wish to hold a firearm, go get the INTENSIVEtraining to allow you to do so. Then you get legally certified to do so hold a firearm.
If you think I'm off here, tell me.
The answer to your question from me is no!
There is no point because they are too far down the line where guns are concerned, their attitudes wont change and it would just drive the guns underground just as they are in Britain. We have a strict gun law but it doesn't stop the teenage gangs in London, Manchester and Liverpool from shooting each other does it? Where do these gangs get their guns from? They dont get them from a gun shop, they go underground and Americans would do the same.
And even with our tough gun laws we still have the oddballs who shoot children in school dont we?
So lets sort out our own gun problems as we sure as Hell wont sort out America's.
C3...................:(
If you think I'm off here, tell me.
I don't necessarily think you're off, I just don't think you have any say in the matter.
I think, in my opinion, that the USA needs to restrict their gun laws to hunters, cops & army personnel, .
And therin lies your problem. What makes "America"? For many (if not most) Americans, it is their constitution. It is a single document written by a bunch of immigrants that unified them as a nation.
A fundamental part of that constitution is the right to bear arms.
Americans don't want to see that gone.
And who are we to tell them otherwise?
I don't necessarily think you're off, I just don't think you have any say in the matter.
Whilst I'm breathing, I've a right to say whatever I do so wish. As do you.
The answer to your question from me is no!
There is no point because they are too far down the line where guns are concerned, their attitudes wont change and it would just drive the guns underground just as they are in Britain. We have a strict gun law but it doesn't stop the teenage gangs in London, Manchester and Liverpool from shooting each other does it? Where do these gangs get their guns from? They dont get them from a gun shop, they go underground and Americans would do the same.
And even with our tough gun laws we still have the oddballs who shoot children in school dont we?
So lets sort out our own gun problems as we sure as Hell wont sort out America's.
C3...................:(
If you can find favouring reviews for gun crime in America towards gun crime in the UK, then maybe my views will change.
I can't find anything, nor do I know of anything, so maybe I'm missing something?
& why London, Manchester, Liverpool? What about Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle? Heck what about Dundee if we're throwing cities on the table.
Whilst I'm breathing, I've a right to say whatever I do so wish. As do you.
Yes, of course, you can say whatever you want, but it's wasted.
As long as you're breathing, if you wish to change any laws, I'd suggest you try to do it in your own country.
The reaction you recieved from your other forum tells me our American friends don't take kindly with Brits telling them what to do with their constitution. Let's remember, they gained the right to that constitution through fighting and beating the British.
They earned the right to make their own laws. Let them.
...They earned the right to make their own laws. Let them.
& of course the US would never dream of telling another country what to do.... Would they?
...The government of the USA will do what their people demand...
I think you'll find they'll do what their corporate overlords tell them to or run the risk of not getting an lobbying or election money.
If you can find favouring reviews for gun crime in America towards gun crime in the UK, then maybe my views will change.
I can't find anything, nor do I know of anything, so maybe I'm missing something?
& why London, Manchester, Liverpool? What about Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle? Heck what about Dundee if we're throwing cities on the table.
A bit of nit-picking from you on the Cities I mentioned Pumkin, I quoted those three because they have the highest gun crime in the UK but you are right, it could be any city in the UK. You missed my point though and failed to answer my question..."Where do these UK gangs get their guns from?"........If guns were banned in the USA it wouldn't stop the gangs getting them and it wouldn't stop the mass murderers from getting them anymore than it would stop the bank robbers getting them.
The USA citizens have now grown into having guns as a priority to defend themselves, if they were to give them up they would feel very vulnerable against the gangs, the robbers and the mass killers. It's a very similar story as having nuclear weapons, yes, every country could agree to give them up but the last one to have a nuclear bomb would hold the upper hand against the others.
So in answer to your question (again)..I say no, it is too late for the USA. It's not too late for Britain though and we must make sure that our gun laws stay strong or we could end up just the same as the USA.
C3...............:eek:
Yes, of course, you can say whatever you want, but it's wasted.
As long as you're breathing, if you wish to change any laws, I'd suggest you try to do it in your own country.
The reaction you recieved from your other forum tells me our American friends don't take kindly with Brits telling them what to do with their constitution. Let's remember, they gained the right to that constitution through fighting and beating the British.
They earned the right to make their own laws. Let them.
Ironically, from what I understand, the architects of the US constitution directly mirrored the British law on rights to bear arms. The British laws were repealed after the Napoleonic wars due to too many soldiers roaming around Britain and robbing businessmen going about their stuff.
Ironically, from what I understand, the architects of the US constitution directly mirrored the British law on rights to bear arms. The British laws were repealed after the Napoleonic wars due to too many soldiers roaming around Britain and robbing businessmen going about their stuff.
There's defiitely an irony there.
I think you'll find they'll do what their corporate overlords tell them to or run the risk of not getting an lobbying or election money.
Democracy in action.
We do not know what this guy was thinking, so it's ignorant for us to presume anything else other than what happened.
He opened fire on a sequestered crowd, shooting into the crowd, knowing full well that he was shooting people and with an intention to kill. As many as he could (proved by the amount of ammunition and type of weapons chosen). I do not think it is a leap of ignorance to suppose that mass murder was the intention.
As for gun laws in America: the right to bear arms does nothing to reduce the incidence of horrific crimes. To the contrary, in my opinion: it leads to a sense of hopelessness and nothing else to loose. But realistically the right to bear arms will never be effectively challenged. But what could be done to at least reduce the efficacy of these people on rampages is to control the types of weapons that are readily and legally available. Removing automatic and semi- automatic weapons from legal sale will not impinge on the constitutionally given right to bear arms.
Removing automatic and semi- automatic weapons from legal sale will not impinge on the constitutionally given right to bear arms.
Definitely agree with this, if they removed these weapons it would mean that it would be a lot harder (not impossible) to obtain weapons that have the potential of harming a larger number of people.
If he was to charge in there with a pistol, there would be far fewer deaths/injuries.
I do think that the US should tighten their gun laws, however, by doing so they'd need to revisit the constitution which they are reluctant to do.
The sicko that did the shooting had rigged his apartment with chemical weapons/explosives which I assume he could of bought legally as well. I mentioned this on a thread just after the Virginia Tech tragedy I believe, but it's going to be damn near impossible to monitor and restrict items that could potentially harm another person.
Long story short; America should clamp down, but it's doubtful they will. I can see both sides of the argument.
oldmarine
23-Jul-12, 16:03
In the short to medium time frame, I think the USA should make semi-automatic and automatic loading weapons ownership illegal. There is no defensive reason (the whole premise for the right to bear arms) why a person should have these on their person.
I agree with Rheghead's statement. Most people use guns for hunting in the USA. One does not need automatic weapons for hunting. However I believe people should have the right to possess weapons. During WW2 I learned one of the reasons the enemy did not attack our coast was the fact it's citizens were well armed. I have always believed that and accept that as a good reason.
oldmarine
23-Jul-12, 16:11
& of course the US would never dream of telling another country what to do.... Would they?
The probem is the US is trying to tell too many other countries what to do. They should take care of their own problems.
cptdodger
23-Jul-12, 16:55
"However I believe people should have the right to possess weapons. During WW2 I learned one of the reasons the enemy did not attack our coast was the fact it's citizens were well armed. I have always believed that and accept that as a good reason."[/QUOTE]
That statement is out of date - America could have owned all the guns in the world, and that would not, and did not, prevent the attacks on 9/11. However, it is your prerogative to think that anybody and everybody is entitled to own a firearm, regardless of the consequences. It is your country that has to deal with the ever more frequent massacres.
It is your country that has to deal with the ever more frequent massacres.
Interesting, which begs the question how many massacres need to take place for the USA Government to take action?
If you are failing to see why the post was off-topic, then you aren't looking hard enough.
"I think that if someone decides that they want to commit mass murder then they will find a way."
We do not know what this guy was thinking, so it's ignorant for us to presume anything else other than what happened.
Should America tighten their laws on their gun culture? This is the question on the table.
You asked "should America tighten their laws on their gun culture?" Bill answered this and gave rationale. Therefore he wasn't off-topic.
If you wanted to ask a closed question and avoid people expanding on their answers then you possibly should have done it in the form of a poll rather than as general forum subject topic, which is always going to lead to debate.
To answer the question in the manner you seem to want it answered.........................NO would be my response.
You asked "should America tighten their laws on their gun culture?" Bill answered this and gave rationale. Therefore he wasn't off-topic.
If you wanted to ask a closed question and avoid people expanding on their answers then you possibly should have done it in the form of a poll rather than as general forum subject topic, which is always going to lead to debate.
To answer the question in the manner you seem to want it answered.........................NO would be my response.
Naw, he was off topic. I asked should america tighten their laws on gun culture, & the response I got was that he would've done it anyway.
This, Dialyser is simply off topic.
@C3 - Your point is valid, but it doesn't change the fact that this guy bought 4 guns & 6500 rounds of ammo, LEGALLY.
Something's got to give, because if not, then this type of thing is going to happen again & again.
Naw, he was off topic. I asked should america tighten their laws on gun culture, & the response I got was that he would've done it anyway.
This, Dialyser is simply off topic.
@C3 - Your point is valid, but it doesn't change the fact that this guy bought 4 guns & 6500 rounds of ammo, LEGALLY.
Something's got to give, because if not, then this type of thing is going to happen again & again.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this then. For me he made his views clear and they were directly related to the orginal post. Anyway enough said, as this is going off-topic ;)
We will just have to agree to disagree on this then. For me he made his views clear and they were directly related to the orginal post. Anyway enough said, as this is going off-topic ;)
Is the grass green?
No, the sky is blue...
;)
If all registered firearms were made illegal and removed for the citizen then only the crims would be armed!
If firearms are so popular how come he wasn't shot to bits by the audience!
Just a thought...
Angel...
George Brims
23-Jul-12, 23:47
Here is something I just learned. Of all the weapons and ammunition this guy purchased legally, how much do you think he would have been able to get if he had been on the anti-terrorist no-fly list? ALL OF IT! If that isn't a sign that something needs to be done about gun laws over here, I don't know what is.
billy5000
24-Jul-12, 03:18
Yep they should tighten thier rules and allowing only one gun per house hold for target and self defence at home!(revolver)
only the active military should be allowed more than one per person but restricted to BASE ownership(bar one gun)
And this freak needs to be given to the parents/partners etc and disposed of how THEY see fit and slowly!......
gunshops should be held accountable for paperwork and proper police checks plus users should have a cert from a good gun club that they need to be approved by to be able to take the gun home where it should be kept safe and out of reach from kids(which doesnt seem to happen too often)
This guy is seriously deranged and he should have had proper checks before being able to keep such an array of guns without proper papers or certs.
Im signed off for mental health and ive used many guns in the past with consent and on private approved land (in my youth)but you dont see me wondering round blowing people away!
it takes a real sicko to do what IT did and that says allot about IT!
death penalty seems too quick for my liking!
sorry guys i just couldnt resist airing my views on this THING!(plus that hair really takes the biscuit and deserves a bullet)
If all registered firearms were made illegal and removed for the citizen then only the crims would be armed!
If firearms are so popular how come he wasn't shot to bits by the audience!
Just a thought...
Angel...
And proliferate gun ownership in the USA has diminished violent "crims" and violent criminal acts?
Just a thought...
If firearms are so popular how come he wasn't shot to bits by the audience!
This is the point the Americans were making on the American forum I'm on.
They feel that all American citizens should carry guns, both in public places & in the home. They feel if all, if not most, of the cinema - goers that day carried a firearm that day, then this wouldn't have happened.
While I can see their point of view, I can't help but feel deeply disturbed by their simplistic views on such a deadly tool.
This is the point the Americans were making on the American forum I'm on.
They feel that all American citizens should carry guns, both in public places & in the home. They feel if all, if not most, of the cinema - goers that day carried a firearm that day, then this wouldn't have happened.
While I can see their point of view, I can't help but feel deeply disturbed by their simplistic views on such a deadly tool.
While the perp would probably have been stopped, it boggles the mind how many would have been killed and injured in the hail of bullets.
Keeping in mind that shooting someone while they're firing an assault rifle can have its own problems such as it continuing to fire. Which is basically what members of the local police force said when they were interview on talk shows.
secrets in symmetry
24-Jul-12, 09:49
If all registered firearms were made illegal and removed for the citizen then only the crims would be armed!That's a simple minded NRA slogan which is scarily effective when broadcast frequently during a referendum on gun control....
teddybear1873
24-Jul-12, 14:55
I'm a Green Card holder and I can legally purchase a firearm in South Carolina. That to me is a scary thought as I have only been here nearly 4 years. I have been in a few gun shops and I was gobsmacked and amazed all the different types of firearms on display.
I also see billboards everywhere showing places to shoot semi and full automatic weapons.
This is part of American Culture and it will stick here for a very long time.
George Brims
24-Jul-12, 18:49
Keeping in mind that shooting someone while they're firing an assault rifle can have its own problems such as it continuing to fire. Which is basically what members of the local police force said when they were interview on talk shows.
Bill Bratton, former Deputy Chief in New York and Chief of police in LA for many years, said yesterday that all these armchair warriors who claim if they had been there with their gun they would have stopped the guy are off their rockers. They guy not only had a military assault weapon with a huge magazine, he was covered in body armour. Bratton pointed out that if the guy's rifle had not jammed then the responding police would have been out-gunned.
I listened to a nutter who phoned in to a talk show this morning claiming the people in the theatre were at fault for abrogating their *duty* to arm themselves. The chat show host eventually cut him off, commenting that there was no point trying to reason with the likes of that.
Bill Bratton, former Deputy Chief in New York and Chief of police in LA for many years, said yesterday that all these armchair warriors who claim if they had been there with their gun they would have stopped the guy are off their rockers. They guy not only had a military assault weapon with a huge magazine, he was covered in body armour. Bratton pointed out that if the guy's rifle had not jammed then the responding police would have been out-gunned.
I listened to a nutter who phoned in to a talk show this morning claiming the people in the theatre were at fault for abrogating their *duty* to arm themselves. The chat show host eventually cut him off, commenting that there was no point trying to reason with the likes of that.
Yes I know the feeling. There's more brains in a false face!
This is a fine example;
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/extreme-trauma-first-lawsuit-from-batman-massacre-filed/
Bearing in mind, the weapons & armour this guy had was in the same style as the military & the police! Yet this guy is trying to sue Warner Bros. for showing such a "violent film".
Not only is this guy a pleb, he's a complete pleb.
I listened to a nutter who phoned in to a talk show this morning claiming the people in the theatre were at fault for abrogating their *duty* to arm themselves. The chat show host eventually cut him off, commenting that there was no point trying to reason with the likes of that.
I was just imagining what would happen if there were a dozen or so gun toting theatre goers, who pulled their weapons on the aurora shooter. How on earth, in the confusion and panic, would each gun man figure out who the good guys were, and if there was only a single assailant or a combined attack of various shooters?
George Brims
24-Jul-12, 21:22
Unless someone was very brave and walked right up to the guy (assuming anyone could figure out where he was in the confusion and smoke) or just incredibly lucky, they wouldn't have stopped him. More than likely there would have been more casualties. I've read accounts by trained police officers involved in shooting incidents describing the feelings of raw panic and confusion when the adrenalin starts to flow. One that sticks in my mind is an officer who said he didn't consciously *hear* a single shot that was fired, including his own, even though over 50 rounds were fired in a fairly small space.
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