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acameron
28-Nov-06, 01:15
Today Tescos opened tomorrow Dounreay closes and what does future hold for Caithness?
I often think of past times and the saying pops in my head “I remember when this was all fields” and how Thurso has grown since I was a bairn. The population has grown; there are more houses being built, and more shops being opened. It’s all good for the Thurso and Caithness consumers and the local economy.
All of Dounreays decommissioning management are patting each others back and congratulation themselves on a job well done. More people are relocating to Caithness; more jobs are being generated to finish the decommissioning of Dounreay. More houses, supermarkets and shops are being built to accommodate the need for supplying the increasing population of Caithness, which in turn generates more jobs.
But one day it will be finished, and unless some significant investment is found there is only one way Caithness will go.
I see the current picture as very good, but if nothing substantial is forthcoming to Caithness within the next 10 to 15 years there could be a lot of hardship on the horizon.

Rheghead
28-Nov-06, 01:25
I think we have to look at what natural resources we have and what skills we have and try and put them together to supply what the country needs. That said, it doesn't take a Victor Kiam to work out what I'm on about...:roll:

the nomad
28-Nov-06, 09:40
I left Caithness for exactly the concerns you raised acameron. I really don't think anyone has fully understood that Dounreay is going and in a verey quick time frame. Employment peaks at 2008 and then its all down hill 2012 a huge chunk of the workforce go. So what is coming along for the younger generation? That was my worry for my family and I was one of a great many that left UKAEA.

I believe that our council should have capitalised on the Dounreay site as they did with Sulom Voe in Shetland. [evil] It's too late now the boat has left the harbour and it angers me that such apathy my sound the death nel for the County.

Yes all these new retail units are fantastic and long overdue, we have been ripped of for years by a local trader attitude of take it or leave it, and they wonder why people went to Inverness to shop....wake up and smell the coffee. [evil] This is a general statement as we did have some very good retailers, unfortunately the were heavily out numbered.

So were from here? I wish I knew!!!!

Dounreay has losted numerous good employees of late who are all heading south, that's also a hell of a lot of expert knowledge.

Don't start me on ASDA.... the local planning should have flown this through, the county needs employment. I also wonder why the proposed site is still being called a green field area its boxed in on all sides by domestic and commercial units....DOH!!!

DrSzin
28-Nov-06, 10:54
I don't know the answer to acameron's question but I thought this article (http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/1115/Tidal_power_can_bring_jobs_boom.html) in last week's Courier showed some rare (and very welcome) evidence of joined-up thinking.

Or perhaps the answer is Rheghead's electric shaver factory. Will you build it on the Dounreay site? :D

JAWS
28-Nov-06, 11:36
There definitely seems to be a Mr. Micawber attitude that "Something will turn up!"
To my mind that is no different to somebody not bothering about their future income because they might have a big win on the lottery.

I would suspect that the article Dr.S points to is correct in it's suggestion that linking up with Orkney to look for areas of mutual interest could well be a start.
Both our areas are losing population and, without checking the details, I would suspect that most of those we are losing are young, intelligent, energetic go-getters.

One thing is certain, if the problem is ignored for long enough then it will go away because there just won't be anybody left here to find jobs for!

golach
28-Nov-06, 12:26
IMO this is not a purely Caithness problem, but a Scottish disease, we have had the same situation all over our little nation for centuries now.
Our young entrepreneurs for years now have had to go abroad even it it was only down south to as far as central Scotland, many went even further.
I do not have an answer to this, I always have held the opinion that Dounreay was just a transfusion to Kaitness not the cure. Dounreay has helped many of our bright youngsters to get a foothold on the ladder to adventure and success.
We must not stick with melancholy and apathy, but get on with it.
Our youngsters may not all get degrees in Physics or Nuclear Enregy, but Kaitness will need "shelf stackers, dustmen refuse collection agents, bar staff, to mention a few of the unsung jobs that no matter what still have to be done.
On the Dark Side Kaitness lost DrSzin to the bright lights and Real Ale of Auld Reekie, but hey you got Jaws and Rheghead in return.
Stop knocking yourselves, your Kaithnessians, many would like to be you:)

Rheghead
28-Nov-06, 13:07
Or perhaps the answer is Rheghead's electric shaver factory. Will you build it on the Dounreay site? :D

It wasn't what I was on about, btw, I don't think Caithnessians are up to a cut-throat industry like that.

dozy
28-Nov-06, 18:46
Its a slippery slope that Caithness is on , the people employed to create the jobs and drive the investment are happy to sit back take the wages and sod the rest ..
MAYBE THE BEST FROM OF JOB CREATION IS TO SACK THAT USELESS BUNCH.
The county is full of folk with brains and talent but they never get the chance to shine .The folk with the power and funds make should they dont..SAD ...

DrSzin
28-Nov-06, 18:59
I think we have to look at what natural resources we have and what skills we have and try and put them together to supply what the country needs. That said, it doesn't take a Victor Kiam to work out what I'm on about...:roll:Well, I'm clearly no Victor Kiam. Could you enlighten us Rheggers?

Are you suggesting a "neo-Dounreay", a bunch of new windfarms, a wave-energy project, or even a tidal-energy project similar to the one I alluded to previously? Or perhaps you're on about something entirely different. Oil perhaps?

I would guess you're not suggesting that power from peat or locally-grown wood-chips could replace Dounreay as a major employer?

Kenn
28-Nov-06, 19:43
I too have concerns for the future of Caithness when the major employer shuts down , what will become of the skilled workers, will they relocate taking families and economic spending power away from the county?
I am equally surprised as a frequent visitor that there is very little in the way of small enterprise which is unusual amongst a rural community.
I have often thought about the problem and have discused it many times with our friends there.
Recently I was amazed to find that fleeces are being virtually thrown away as farmers cannot get a decent price for them.I enquired about a Jacb's fleece and was told that I could take it rather than it be thrown out. This set me to thinking, I have a small designer knitwear business and to buy such a fleece would cost me £45 here, then I would have to find a spinner,pay for that to be done and the yarn washed or left natural.If I was to buy the yarn ready for knitting it would cost me in excess of £10.00 per ball if I could even purchase it locally, meaning the yarn to knit a standard sweater would be well above £100.
Now I know there are spinners up there and knitters who produce wonderful garments and it struck me that there should be an enormous market down south. Perhaps some one would like to work out the economics and see if some thing is feasable. I for 1 would be prepared to purchase.
Another thing that has struck me is the lack of tourists facilities and that most people that I talk to have no idea where the county is and what it has to offer.
Yes, you have the organisation at "Groats" that does the wild life trips and the ferry to Orkney in summer but I can't get a trip out from either Wick or Thurso just to go see the natural world and the wonderful coastal sceenery.
You have some of the most accessable ,from the viewing point, of bird colonies on the north coast but where is that publicised? The seals don't like to be disturbed but again they can be easily viewed from many places without having to set foot on the beaches. What about the visiting cetaceans?
People pay vast amounts of money to go to Iceland to whale watch, there is an organised programme on The Western Isles, makes one pause and think.
Obviously this site has attracted a few people but I feel that you are seriously under rating what you have on your doorsteps and now with the expansion of Inverness airport the oppurtunities for tourism should be expanding at an equal rate.
I could go on but I won't as being merely an interested outsider maybe it is not my place to put these ideas forward and I should mind my own business!

acameron
28-Nov-06, 20:13
If the only way forward is to be the supplier of wave or wind power, it isn't going to take the same amount of manpower it takes to run Dounreay. Also who builds the wind and wave turbines? Not Caithness I bet. Why not Caithness? If we had the factories that could build our own wave and wind farms, use and show them off to the rest of the world, get the world buy from us instead of the other way round. Caithness's future could be secure.
But that's too simple of a solution!!
I am not that naive to think that if wind and wave power is to be used it will be the lowest bid that wins, and it will be some other country who benefits, they will take there own people in to run the show blah blah blah .......Caithness no further forward!

Bobbyian
28-Nov-06, 22:03
Just a little remark. after all the compaints I have seen about call centers in other countries on this forum surely Caithness is ideally situated to do this kind of service ...a relatively large and ready to train Englishspeaking Work force electronic infrastructure and most of it could be done from the croft it just needs a little organising ????

Bobinovich
28-Nov-06, 23:19
I quite agree but we do already have call centres in both Thurso and Wick. The problem is that the foreign call centres are cheaper to run - wages, less strict government red tape, you name it - they are cheaper.

The actual cost of communications from those distant lands is almost negligible now with modern technology so you can understand, from a financial point of view, why these companies are leaving the UK in their droves.

Customer service seems to be a dead art thesedays - many companies are just not interested.

Put simply, the sales team (who 'make' the money) are English spoken and bend over backwards to get the sale, while the after-sales (who cost money) might as well be speaking double dutch - so long as they're cheap.

MagicalTrevor
29-Nov-06, 15:11
It's clear the population of Caithness is expanding. Whats also clear are the increase of services such as new pubs, Tesco and ASDA etc, which is expected with the growing community. However once Dounreay goes (and the workforce arguably with it) who will buy the products from our extravagant array of supermarkets. If theres a mass exodus down south this could be the catalyst to supermarkets closing, and the knock-on effect will be more closures and ultimately a major slide.

However thats all scaremongering/worst case scenario.

A more realistic future will be the government investing more in promoting Caithness as a prime place for investment. We already have a huge skilled workforce (from the legacy of Dounreay), we have an outstanding natural environment, and the perfect accent for call centres. The opportunity is there for investment but we need to count on our council to promote us good and properly.

Also with our growing population comes great opportunity for new enterprises. Dempster Street, Wick is a good example. Again the council needs to take responsibility and make it easier for new startups. New enterprises are likely to be a major factor in slowing decline in the area.

Ultimately I'm wanting more investment in the area from larger companies, and more new starts. That would be nice thanks


Oh yeah and that call-centre malarky. Sure its cheaper to run it in India but recently theres been a larger emphasis put on the quality of the call rather than quantity. No offence to the asians but half the time you cant understand them at all and the whole conversation turns infuriating. Instead companies are looking to add *fluent* english speakers, which should be viewed as a caithness opportunity.

peter macdonald
29-Nov-06, 15:53
I too have concerns for the future of Caithness when the major employer shuts down , what will become of the skilled workers, will they relocate taking families and economic spending power away from the county?

Spot on Lizz we need to keep this pool of labour but we also have a lot of young kids who would benifet greatly from an apprenticeship at Dounreay It would be a decent legacy to leave

I am equally surprised as a frequent visitor that there is very little in the way of small enterprise which is unusual amongst a rural community.
I have often thought about the problem and have discused it many times with our friends there.

As you say Lizz It is sadly lacking IMHO a lot of the money controlled by CASE has not been spent wisely (alledgedly!!!)

Recently I was amazed to find that fleeces are being virtually thrown away as farmers cannot get a decent price for them.I enquired about a Jacb's fleece and was told that I could take it rather than it be thrown out. This set me to thinking, I have a small designer knitwear business and to buy such a fleece would cost me £45 here, then I would have to find a spinner,pay for that to be done and the yarn washed or left natural.If I was to buy the yarn ready for knitting it would cost me in excess of £10.00 per ball if I could even purchase it locally, meaning the yarn to knit a standard sweater would be well above £100.
Now I know there are spinners up there and knitters who produce wonderful garments and it struck me that there should be an enormous market down south. Perhaps some one would like to work out the economics and see if some thing is feasable. I for 1 would be prepared to purchase.

Another thing that has struck me is the lack of tourists facilities and that most people that I talk to have no idea where the county is and what it has to offer.
Down to a lack of local control On this forum it has often been discussed Caithness basically has been ignored by the tourist authorities for years even to the extent (I have reliably been informed )that staff in Inverness were telling folks not to bother going north )
Yes, you have the organisation at "Groats" that does the wild life trips and the ferry to Orkney in summer but I can't get a trip out from either Wick or Thurso

Lizz there is chap who does this in Wick ..who funny enough went to CASE for help when he was starting out in business (they offered him £50)

just to go see the natural world and the wonderful coastal sceenery.
You have some of the most accessable ,from the viewing point, of bird colonies on the north coast but where is that publicised?

I dont know if read the thread about Whaligoe and where it was ,but the local
councillor has tried to get information signs put there and at Sarclet so people could read about the history wildlife etc
He has tried this on numerous occessions and the council wont do it Their view is "if we put signs there then we are liable "

The seals don't like to be disturbed but again they can be easily viewed from many places without having to set foot on the beaches. What about the visiting cetaceans?

Lizz spot on you can see whales seals dolphins etc all along the coast from car parks and right of ways but again no sign posts or publicity

People pay vast amounts of money to go to Iceland to whale watch, there is an organised programme on The Western Isles, makes one pause and think.
Obviously this site has attracted a few people but I feel that you are seriously under rating what you have on your doorsteps and now with the expansion of Inverness airport the oppurtunities for tourism should be expanding at an equal rate.

Very true and if you add in the Archeology History Photography and Birdwatching etc its a good package It just hasnt been marketed properly
We have a lot to to learn from the Irish ,Norwegians and much near to home the Orcadians about how make tourism work but most of all it needs to be much more locally controlled


I could go on but I won't as being merely an interested outsider maybe it is not my place to put these ideas forward and I should mind my own business!
Lizz IMHO you make a heck of a lot of sense to me

Bobbyian
29-Nov-06, 19:02
I too have concerns for the future of Caithness when the major employer shuts down , what will become of the skilled workers, will they relocate taking families and economic spending power away from the county?





Recently I was amazed to find that fleeces are being virtually thrown away as farmers cannot get a decent price for them.I enquired about a Jacb's fleece and was told that I could take it rather than it be thrown out. This set me to thinking, I have a small designer knitwear business and to buy such a fleece would cost me £45 here, then I would have to find a spinner,pay for that to be done and the yarn washed or left natural.If I was to buy the yarn ready for knitting it would cost me in excess of £10.00 per ball if I could even purchase it locally, meaning the yarn to knit a standard sweater would be well above £100.
Now I know there are spinners up there and knitters who produce wonderful garments and it struck me that there should be an enormous market down south. Perhaps some one would like to work out the economics and see if some thing is feasable. I for 1 would be prepared to purchase.



Another thing that has struck me is the lack of tourists facilities and that most people that I talk to have no idea where the county is and what it has to offer.
Down to a lack of local control On this forum it has often been discussed Caithness basically has been ignored by the tourist authorities for years even to the extent (I have reliably been informed )that staff in Inverness were telling folks not to bother going north )
Yes, you have the organisation at "Groats" that does the wild life trips and the ferry to Orkney in summer but I can't get a trip out from either Wick or Thurso




just to go see the natural world and the wonderful coastal sceenery.
You have some of the most accessable ,from the viewing point, of bird colonies on the north coast but where is that publicised?



The seals don't like to be disturbed but again they can be easily viewed from many places without having to set foot on the beaches. What about the visiting cetaceans?

Lizz spot on you can see whales seals dolphins etc all along the coast from car parks and right of ways but again no sign posts or publicity

People pay vast amounts of money to go to Iceland to whale watch, there is an organised programme on The Western Isles, makes one pause and think.

I could go on but I won't as being merely an interested outsider maybe it is not my place to put these ideas forward and I should mind my own business!
Lizz IMHO you make a heck of a lot of sense to me

I apologise again If I seem to be encroaching on your Piece of ground .. asa an ex Northerner... I know that there are loads of Germans that visit the Highlands ( especially The Highlands) to get away from this "Racing along Elbow jagging " community and as I have said before on another thread I am frequently asked where and how they should travel and the reports back when they have been >North are so positive.. I think you should be more aware of what you have as a recuperation and "wellness" area
and if we outsider can do anything to improve things i`m sure we keep the ball rolling

REG
03-Dec-06, 17:02
Nice to see some people are concerned re Caithness’ economic future, or lack of it. Dounreay action Group (DAG) have been seriously concerned about our future economy for 25 years, and are saddened by the lack of support from younger members of the community, who will be hardest hit when the crash comes.
Some pointers to DAG’s reasoning are:
1. In the century to mid 1950s, Caithness population declined from 41,000 to 21,000 and was diving towards 10,000 (or perhaps total collapse), as labour intensive base industries of farming and fishing were being replaced by mechanisation. Dounreay turned this dive around such that numbers increased to 27,000 in the 1970s/1980s, but thereafter tailed off again to today’s 23,000 or so. The future prospect puts the pre-Dounreay outlook back in place again, with a population of 10,000 or less within little more than10 years.
2. Calculations for DAG’s submissions to the European Demonstration Reprocessing Plant (EDRP) inquiry in 1985, showed that an extra 1,717 Caithness jobs, over and above direct employment of 2,300, were directly dependent on Dounreay; it may further be assumed that each job supports, or helps to support, at least three people (family, services, etc.), so more than 10,000 people in the North Highlands enjoyed the benefits of Dounreay at that time. Today, DNE has some 2,600 employees, including contractors, and therefore some 7,800 people are currently financially dependant on Dounreay’s presence.
3. Government Organisations (GO’s), have for decades pumped £millions into Caithness’ economy, and have maintained a varying level of success in creation of jobs which are not dependent on Dounreay. Jobs have been created, some have lasted for a while, others haven’t, but a continuous level of non Dounreay dependent have been available. This level of job creation could conceivably be maintained for a short period, post Dounreay, or may increase marginally, provided the economy does not collapse totally. It is very unlikely that job creation will match the losses when Dounreay finally shuts the gate. Some 60 largish businesses (say average 70 employees each with average wages some 67% of those available at Dounreay) would be required to replace the financial flow currently provided by Dounreay. This number is unlikely to be achieved.
4. Currently the Scottish Executive are pumping £15m per year with a £30m starter for an "Intermediate Technology Institute for Energy", mostly, it seems based at Aberdeen, and UK wide, HMG are boasting an intention to spend upwards of £1 billion on a "National Institute for Energy Technology". These facilities, if located in the North ie at Dounreay, totally or in part, could go far to sustaining the economy, and avoid mass migration, but they must be fought for very much harder and faster than is currently the case. Other than an intention to employ a manager to seek Government interest in a massive tidal flow scheme for the Pentland Firth, we are not yet in the race for these large research, development, construction, and operation projects. Development of a hydrogen economy infrastructure is essential, especially for transport, and Dounreay is ideally placed to lead in the technology; a high temperature PBMR would be used to produce hydrogen by hydrolysis of water. Other UK wide organisations such large energy businesses, universities, and local authorities are already running, and have 1 or 2 years start on us.
5. The world is proposing, designing, building, and operating new advanced nuclear plant. Dounreay was a world leader in nuclear technology, but ill informed politicians have tried desperately to bury it for 2 decades. UK’s expertise gets less each year. We need nuclear power now, and Dounreay is an excellent site to start a UK recovery.
6. DAG and site unions have sought such enterprises for Dounreay for many years, but a much greater effort is required from the whole of the Caithness population, especially those young enough to have the opportunity of long term local employment. As Sir Bernard Ingham put it, if we don’t fight for a slice of the action for Caithness, no one else will do the fighting for us.

Bobinovich
03-Dec-06, 23:32
Well thanks for that REG, unfortunately, whether through ignorance or just the insinuation in the group's title, I was always under the impression that the DAG was simply someting to do with Dounreay. Not being an employee, or a direct dependent of any single employee, I never really took much notice of any media attention DAG received. Maybe there are others who think the same.

Maybe if they were renamed Caithness Future Economy or the Caithness Economic Partnership (oops, taken, sorry!) it might have given me an insight that they were actually actively seeking to look towards the future of the economy of this great county I may have taken an interest. Having been here since I was 8, and now raising my own young family here whilst running a small business, I have a vested interest in ensuring that there is a customer base for me in the future.

Anyway, it would seem to me that we have two separate groups DAG & CEP playing similar sorts of roles, Yes? No? So the question has to be why is there no coherent long term strategy in place yet?

hunter
03-Dec-06, 23:33
Dounreay may well have sustained the economy of Caithness at artificially high levels. The area very quickly became accustomed to its largesse and dependency. So much so that the enterpreneurial activity was stifled - who needed to go seek wealth when you just held out your hand and Dounreay provided? Caithness has the lowest business start-up rate in the country.

So long as Dounreay looked after the economy, the area never needed to sell itself to the outside world either. Dounreay money kept the area going, so why bother spending money selling the area? Now the chickens have come home to roost. The area has a poor reputation externally at a time when it needs a good repuitation to attract the investment. Add to this the low business start-up rate and the size of the task becomes apparent.

The Government already has a body in place that was designed to deal with just this sort of situation. Its name is CASE. But its record does not fill me with confidence that it has the dnyamic approach needed to turn around decades of non-investment in marketing aqnd inward investment in this area.

Bobinovich
03-Dec-06, 23:50
I agree totally Hunter. I personally question the economics of CASE who will give massive sums of public money to those companies solely on the promise to make or retain X number of jobs - especially where that company already makes plenty of money and/or goes bust shortly after (i.e. the CASE of Death), while stifling smaller businesses wishing to expand into new areas who, in the long term, may well add to their employment figures, but need to do it in a more controlled manner over a longer period.

Surely spreading the money amongst lots of smaller businesses would make it go much further, would be less risky than putting their eggs into just a few large baskets (especially where they are already fur lined!), and would encourage true enterprise rather than just employment. After all their name is Caithness & Sutherland ENTERPRISE...

Kenn
04-Dec-06, 01:59
I would suggest that the inhabitants take a good look around themselves. You have a unique county with some spectalcular sceenery, warm welcoming folks and the oppurtunity to market yersels to the world.
I was reading a report on The BBC tonight.HAH they seem to have scant knowledge of the county..now if they can't get their fact right what chance for the future?
Come on folks, promote your difference,maybe there is some one up there that could write "A letter from Caithness," to the national press down south.
Get yourselves on the map, do anything that you can and don't fall into the lethargy that seems to be the normal attitude.
Stand tall,stand proud and stand up for your county.