should we apologise for slavery [Archive]

Kaishowing

27-Nov-06, 10:58

......be ashamed it happened.....

Sorry, but I don't feel ashamed in the slightest.
Not that I don't think it was an evil, sick and barbaric thing, but I feel no connection or responsibility for slavery at all.
I'll be damned if I apologise for something so far in the past that my direct decendants may or may not have had a part of.
The concept of 'Sins Of the Father' certainly doesn't apply here...or it would be 'Sins Of the Father's Father's Father's Father's Father' and sounding like a Monty Python sketch.
What I think is just as disgusting though, is the way some people in traditionaly discriminated against groups who try and use racial guilt as parodied by Lenny Henry ('It's coz I'm black innit?')
Each and every person should be judged on their own merits, regardless of race creed and colour....There should be no allowances made other than on an individual basis.
I can't abide racism in ANY form aginst ANY colour or creed.
So, while I would agree that slavery was a terrible and evil thing, I feel no responsibility or guilt for it! For anyone who says they feel guilt, IMO is laughable.

MadPict

27-Nov-06, 11:47

brandy

27-Nov-06, 11:53

i think its ridiculous as well..
and actually the black slavery.. there is a lot more to it than white slavers going and capturing and enslaving africans.
if i remember my history right.. the warring tribes quite often would capture each other and sell their enemies to the whites..
so share a little blame maybe?
also were not the scots.. enslaved a long time before the blacks by the norse?
im pretty sure when they went aviking.. that they pillaged..killed and enslaved..
should then any one of decent from slavery here not deserve an appology from the nordic peoples?
slavery has been ongoing from the get go.. and is still practiced today.
does not mean we have to like it or condone it.
we can better ourselves.. and try and realise that we are all people.. and deserve equality. but its a long process.. that will take a long long time.. and saying .. oh sorry for what idiots did hundreds of years ago.. how can we make repiration? isnt going to help.

brandy

27-Nov-06, 12:00

just to prove how far flung slavery is *grins*
it is a basic part of civilization (in effect has been a part since the beginging)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#History_of_slavery

_Ju_

27-Nov-06, 12:16

I can relate, we have had aboriginals demanding apologies for how their people were treated by the whites for the last 200 years. I am sorry they were treated badly, but I didn't do it and won't be emotionally blackmailed into apologising for it.

There is a slight difference: there are aborinals alive today that suffered atrocities at the hands of the whites. This is not mere historical fact.

Rheghead

27-Nov-06, 12:36

Quite the contrary, I think Tony Blair should get Britain to be applauded by civil rights groups for being one of the most progressive nations to abolish slavery and being one to harrass American slave ships in the 19th century.

pennys

27-Nov-06, 12:55

I agree with you. We can't help what happened 200 years ago

porshiepoo

27-Nov-06, 14:13

Would it make an ounce of difference to us if the IRA apologised for the atrocities they carried out????? Not a bit.
The best we can do is honour all those deceased innocent people that were enslaved by learning from the ignorance and fear of that time and moving forward with the hope that it never happens again - in any form.
Unfortunately slavery is still abundant in the world today.

squidge

27-Nov-06, 15:15

Given that his comments are made in the face of the 200th anniversary of the abolition of slavery I think Blair has got the balance right. He said

I believe the bicentenary offers us a chance not just to say how profoundly shameful the slave trade was - how we condemn its existence utterly and praise those who fought for its abolition - but also to express our deep sorrow that it could ever have happened and rejoice at the better times we live in today.

I dont think that is gushing or over the top. I think most people, faced with a 200th anniversary would make the same sentiments. Its not ridiculous to acknowledge that as a country we did something wrong - something appalling and as Rheghead said it is important to note that Britains role was vital in abolishing the slave trade. Thats something we shoudl be proud of and something which i understand is being commemorated in the 200th anniversary.

peter macdonald

27-Nov-06, 15:46

A good link to show that perhaps Mr Blair is a little early in his apology as slavery was not abolished in the British Empire until 1834 The need for "very cheap" labour had not deminished and in India (part of the British Empire at the time ) the indenture system came in to being ...and Im not sure there was too much difference than what went before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_indenture_system

"The best we can do is honour all those deceased innocent people that were enslaved by learning from the ignorance and fear of that time and moving forward with the hope that it never happens again - in any form.

Too right

"Unfortunately slavery is still abundant in the world today."

http://www.antislavery.org/archive/press/pressRelease2003-UNworkinggroup.htm

Unfortunately your right on this one as well

danc1ngwitch

27-Nov-06, 18:31

how many of us may have slave blood running through our veins... how does this make u feel ... ashamed ... denial ... history is US ... fellow human beings being treated so differently used and abused and sexually assulted and why all because US whites thought we were better... wow we sure fooled oursels... none of US are in control and none of US are better than the other and if u think ur better than me well know this I'd never bow ta u ... not ever... ma teeth are white scratch's ma chin ( where did they come from ) lol...[lol]

percy toboggan

27-Nov-06, 19:53

The day someone apologises for forcing children up chimneys , or to crawl around on mill floors amoingst cotton waste for an absolute pittance then maybe I might consider the case for the descendants of 'slaves'.

The truth is many African tribal elders and chiefs were complicit in selling their own up, and down the the river. Many of them were enslaved anyway. Trophies of local conflict and tribal warfare.

How many of these latter day 'descendants' are now much better off for the abduction of their forebears?
Black people - the positive go-ahead ones anyway - are making steady progress on the socio-economic ladder on this side of the Atlantic, and in America.

British politicians were largely instrumental in ending human trafficking for slavery - this was enough. Debt paid , so get over it.

To keep dredging up old grievances does nobody any good. This was a blot on humanity well over two centuries ago. Move on.
It's rich for a man like Blair who turns a blind eye to even in the 21st.century to the exploitation of immigrant labour. Those Chinese cockle pickers would still be shivering out in the windswept darkness of Morecambe sands if not for their tragedy, make no mistake.
I heard a term today on the radio 'post slavery traumatic syndrome'. Garbage!

Ricco

27-Nov-06, 20:57

No, I don't think we should. Slavery is not new; in fact, many of those countries that are asking for an apology have themselves been very racist and kept slaves themselves. Many African tribes have been slavers for decades before the British arrived. Haven't heard them apologising to one another. For that matter, I don't hear cries of "I'm sorry for all the murders and genocide I have caused" emanating from Nigeria, the Congo, Sudan, Ethiopia, et al. We hear about the Tutsi massacring hundreds of the whatsits and visa versa - haven't heard any of them apologising, have you?

Nope - don't think we should.

Whitewater

27-Nov-06, 23:59

Slavery is wrong, but I do not think that we should apologise for it, it was not our responsibility. What happened in the past was at that time accepted by the people and everybody made profit from it i.e the slavetraders and the slavedrivers. It was an accepted way of life, not correct but at the time acceptable.

We are becoming too politically corrrect now, we bow down to everything, and persecute our own people for doing what the have done all their lives eg the BA woman who was told to cover up a cross she was wearing round her neck, while Seiks and Muslims are being allowed to wear what they want, no thought is given about them offending us.

JAWS

28-Nov-06, 02:49

If somebody can find a 200 year old Slave Trader and a 200 year old slave than an apology is due.

What puzzles me is the fact that long after slavery was abolished in 1834 in the British Empire Africa was still known as the "Dark Continent" because almost the whole of the interior was unknown to Europeans. Even in the late 1800s David Livingstone was wandering round the interior of Africa where no other European had ever ventured. There was a very good reason why it was called “The White Man’s Grave”.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that there had been an awful lot of Africans trekking to the coasts to volunteer as slaves or somebody, other than Europeans, was enslaving them, forcing them to go there and selling them.

How many other Countries in Europe, Africa, the Middle East and South America are fretting about their involvement in the Slave Trade?

How about insisting the Scandinavians apologise for all the slaves who were taken from these Islands by the Vikings? Lets all run round to find some nationality who ought to be apologising to us.

Expressing shame or sorrow for something you had absolutely no control over and were not engaged in is nothing more than playing to the gallery or grovelling for the sake of being seen do so. It serves no useful purpose and solves absolutely nothing

The whole concept is so pathetic that I can't even raise a smirk about it!
And that goes for all the other comedians who want apologies for centuries old occurrences whatever their excuse.

Oh, and I think next March is the anniversary of the abolition of British Ships being involved in the trans-Atlantic Slaves Trade.

j4bberw0ck

28-Nov-06, 11:17

I don't hear cries of "I'm sorry for all the murders and genocide I have caused" emanating from Nigeria, the Congo, Sudan, Ethiopia, et al. We hear about the Tutsi massacring hundreds of the whatsits and visa versa - haven't heard any of them apologising, have you?

It's fair to say that the Brits, Belgians, French and Germans have some responsibility for these massacres because they split the country up into geopolitical areas without regard for tribal enmities; then the imperial powers withdrew and the massacres started.

Not that I advocate apologising for it, you understand; but I do agree with squidge that Blair's "apology" isn't really an apology but a measured political statement.

I can't remember who it was, but a few years ago when African Americans were up in arms about their slave forebears and how they wanted compensation / recognition, a political commentator said that he would have thought all those African Americans should be grateful to the slave trade since they now have the advantage of life in the US, as compared with scratching a living in Africa. It was also suggested that if they all felt so badly about the effect on Africa of the slavers' activities, then they should surely consider expressing their gratitude by going back to help the continent recover......

Substitute some politically-ambitious people in this country and some might think the same could apply ;)

rich

28-Nov-06, 18:06

I think we should be apopogising for Tony Blair

Dreadnought

28-Nov-06, 19:59

I'll apologise when I have received an apology.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1604

Boozeburglar

29-Nov-06, 13:34

I'll apologise when I have received an apology.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1604

Should the people involved in committing atrocities in the camps during WW2 suggest no apology was needed as some of the Allies had engaged in genocide?

What gives you more in common with the handful of unfortunates snatched from this land than the thousands taken from Africa?

No one is asking you to apologise.

As a nation we should remind and remember all the good and all the bad, and continue to learn.

People are still subject to attack in our streets purely on the basis of their skin colour. This is partly the legacy of slavery.

Tony Blair, as our representative , should make it very clear that there is no quarter here for the inequality and prejudice being constantly stirred up by the few.

Part of that would be an unreserved acknowledgement of how regretful our part in slavery was.

It takes a better man to lay down his ego and offer his hand.

A courageous man.

JAWS

29-Nov-06, 14:45

I don't recall anybody suggesting that the Slave Trade should be forgotten and swept under the carpet.

When it comes to dragging some of the horrors which occurred during WW2 into the discussion then there is a slight difference.

The question you ask, Boozeburglar, is not to compare like with like. You ask if those who were involved in the atrocities could say they should not be expected to apologise because other peoples had also committed atrocities.

The question which should be asked is, "Would I expect a teenage German to apologise for something his grandfather may or may not have been involved in during WW2?"
The answer to that would be no definitely not, and should he even try to offer an apology I would say, "No, you must not apologise. The blame is not yours and neither is the shame!"

That such things are taught and accepted as having happened is necessary for all of us in order to prevent it happening again.
To teach it and use it as a stick to beat all future German generations over the head would be totally unacceptable. Doing that would be something I would find to be a shameful idea and something which would say an awful lot about the intentions of those insisted on doing so.

Do I feel any guilt or shame about the Slave Trade? Not in the least, any more than I feel guilt or shame about anything else which happened long before I was born.
I wish to know about such things and would hope to learn from them. Would I find such behaviour to be acceptable in my lifetime? No I would not.

Any shame or apology offered now would be as useful as somebody being expected to apologise for what their great-great-great-great-grandchild might do a couple of centuries from now.

To put the whole concept of apologising for history into some sort of perspective, I would point to what has happened on these Islands.
Am I going to grovel for Longshanks’ behaviour in Scotland? Not on your life.
Do I expect Scots to apologise for Wallace’s behaviour on raids into England? Don’t be ridiculous, the whole concept is preposterous!
And if anybody seriously suggested any such thing, I would fall about laughing at the very thought.

danc1ngwitch

29-Nov-06, 15:53

build a bridge xxx what has happened has happened

willowbankbear

29-Nov-06, 19:06

No , I dont think anyone should appologise for slavery unless they really want to but do ye think the ones being appologised to will give a monkeys? Or will they humbly accept & tell ye to get on with things & not to make a big deal of it;)

Rheghead

29-Nov-06, 19:12

This whole apology thing for slavery is part of the campaign for greater equality for trade for non-G8 countries, iow, compensation and the cancelling of whole debt etc etc. Since we are still benefitting from the slave trade indirectly then moves are afoot to narrow the inequality. But isn't that benefitting from slavery by a more indirect route?:confused

JAWS

29-Nov-06, 19:38

In other words it is simply a politically motivated attempt to make me feel guilty so I will be more inclined to throw money in their direction.
That has been Africa's problem for far too long. The more "Free" things that is poured in the more it disrupts the local economies and keeps the local population in poverty and reliant on hand outs.

The "We still benefit from the Slave Trade" is just a weak attempt at moral blackmail. It is, in effect no different to the plaintive plea of, "Can you spare a few pence for a cup of tea?" that you constantly get asked for in any city centre. Try suggesting that you will take them and buy them a cup of tea and you will learn several new words which do not appear in the Dictionary.

Sorry, I have no conscience about the "plea" that I am still benefiting from the Slave Trade. They have had 200 years to move on from that and if they haven't by now then they never will.
Other areas have had it just as bad from time to time but they didn't sit round demanding people feel sorry for them, they dusted themselves off and got on with life!

Dreadnought

29-Nov-06, 19:47

I do not feel the slightest little bit guilty about slavery. I have absolutely no regret for slavery. I was not there, I did not do it, and there is no way on Earth I will be made to feel responsible for it.

Are all the Anglo-carribean and Anglo-africans in Britain, who are also living off the legacy of slavery, going to apologise as well?

MadPict

29-Nov-06, 19:48

Read a letter in The Times yesterday -

Sir,
Is any nation going to apologise for eating our missionaries.

[lol]

Samuri

29-Nov-06, 19:50

I think we should definitely apologise for slavery, we could have been a slavedriver in a past life! So in apologising we are clearing our own conscience so to speak! :Razz

johno

02-Dec-06, 18:18

no, i dont think that we should apoligise for slavery at all. all this happened in a world long before our time. Should the usa apoligise for veitnam,or for dropping the bombs on Japan when the war was all but won. then again it did take ww2 to an end saving allied life but costing millions of japanese civilians lives
or germany for hitler. i think that japan has apoligised for their atrocities in ww2 though. lets all just learn by it and try to ensure nothing like this could ever happen again whether its slavery[ which im sure still is going on somewhere in some small way] or cruelty by one nation to another.
best we put it all behind us but still remember in our own private way,s
ps, before you all remind me of iraq. ok .but i reckon this has more to do with america,s greed for oil
[disgust] any way that,s my personal views

peter macdonald

02-Dec-06, 20:24

Are all the Anglo-carribean and Anglo-africans in Britain, who are also living off the legacy of slavery, going to apologise as well?
__________________
Well I hope all these Anglo-carribean and Anglo-africans who have served in the forces and whose parents and grand parents served in both world wars dont apologise They have no need to
(only my opinion)

sids

02-Dec-06, 21:07

"Should we apologise for slavery?"

Note capital and punctuation.

Anyway, Yes.

Very sorry and all that, enchained dudes.

oldmarine

03-Dec-06, 01:42

What's next - paying the descendants reparations for the evils done to their long dead relatives?
Far fetched? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery

Why Blair felt the need to apologise is beyond me. Will he apologise for the Highland Clearances next?

Apologising for slavery is beyond my reach when I was not the cause of such actions. I believe the same could be said for the Highland Clearances. Although both actions were wrong during those times.

Metalattakk

03-Dec-06, 03:54

Anyway, Yes.

Very sorry and all that, enchained dudes.

Sorry. Made me laugh. Couldn't help it.

Off to the bad fire for me then... :(

MadPict

24-Mar-07, 07:15

Well, with this weekend being used to mark the bicentenary of the end of slavery I happened to read this...'

On the eve of the anniversary, Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott said Britain is to hold an annual commemoration day to remember its role in the slave trade, as well as the fight to end it.

He told The Guardian daily that he expected the day would be sometime in June and said it could provide an opportunity for the country to consider how it could help modern day Africa.

Obviously many Orgers have already made their views clear about whether Blair should have apologised so now this loony government wants to make it an annual thing?

“Like the Holocaust, we are learning to talk about the slave trade more openly and more honestly,” Prescott told the daily.

“There is a sense of shock and horror at what went on in our history, and the sheer brutality of it ... We need to get the proper history told, including the good, the bad and the dreadful ... “The legacy of this 200th anniversary should be a permanent date when we ask whether there is more we could do, so that every year, like (the) Holocaust, we remind people of the horrors.”

Prescott? If slavery hadn't been abolished and he hadn't become a "politician" (a word I use very loosely in his case) he would probably have still be on the high seas, possibly as a steward on a slave ship....

I certainly don't intend to observe this weekend's events - I have nothing to be guilty for. I don't life in a fancy house on a huge estate in the UK nor do I own a plantation.

_Ju_

24-Mar-07, 07:59

I can relate, we have had aboriginals demanding apologies for how their people were treated by the whites for the last 200 years. I am sorry they were treated badly, but I didn't do it and won't be emotionally blackmailed into apologising for it.

Untill the sixties aboriginal families were being torn apart. Their children removed to white families or institutionalized to civilize them (Look up the stolen generation). They got the right to vote in the early sixties, but I think that it wasn't untill the early seventies that it was counted into the elections. They live, today, with the consequences of racism and discrimination that only (officially) ended in the sixties. This is 1960 NOT 1860. Governments elected by australians living today did these things, so yes, apologies and much, much more are due.

gleeber

24-Mar-07, 09:26

Sorry, I have no conscience about the "plea" that I am still benefiting from the Slave Trade. They have had 200 years to move on from that and if they haven't by now then they never will.

I dont suppose you would ever consider that perhaps, just perhaps, your attitude may be a part of the problem? No, stupid question.

I certainly don't intend to observe this weekend's events- I have nothing to be guilty for.
I have nothing to feel guilty of either, but I certainly acknowledge that the darker races could have a real gripe with Joe White.
Attitudes like the above do nothing to build bridges between races.
Unless a person has grown up and experienced certain situations in their lives, no amount of education or awareness will allow them to feel the deep and very often unconscious emotions which will control a persons very existance.
Whilst i would agree that any apology would be nothing more than words and is therefore not necessary, an understanding of other peoples needs are.

percy toboggan

24-Mar-07, 10:22

I have re-visited this thread and my original post made me recoil, just a tad. Having listened to all the hullaballoo and hand-wringing in the media from black people (and some whites) I have slightly softened my personal stance a little.
There is no doubt that the effects of slavery are having an impact on our society even today. The de-humanisation of slaves, and the appalling treatment meted out to them is as black a mark (no pun intended) on mankind as the holocaust , the purges in Soviet Russia and any other episode you could mention.

Should we apologise? If it is down to anyone to apologise then it is the duty of H.M. Queen Elizabeth II for it was the institution she now represents and which is still intact that benefitted the most. She must make it clear though that her apology is not made on behalf of the great bulk of the British people, merely the 'upper crust'.

I certainly do not feel it incumbent upon me to apologise for slavery. Perhaps while Liz is at it, she should apologise to me for the poverty endured by my ancestors who were Scottish coal miners and rural English agricultural labourers who toiled for a pittance whilst the likes of Liz prospered to an obscene level. In short, I'm not holding my breath for such an apology, neither should the descendants of slaves because it will not come before at least two generations have passed. Who knows what kind of a touchy-feely/creepy-crawly 'King' William will turn out to be.

What difference would an apology make? Probably no difference whatsoever.
The symbolism of a 'slave remembrance day' is typical of this shallow, gimmick laden government. Perhaps they might even see fit to make it a 'bank holiday for black people' a small crumb of comfort to help assuage any inner turmoil they may be feeling still. Of course their own bourgeouning race industry would preclude such a measure

The subject of 'reparations' came up on a BBC 5 live phone-in yesterday. One man became confused and mis-took the word 'reparation' for 're-patriation' he used the latter three times before the host corrected him. On reflection later I felt this slip of the tongue might hold they key to this. If those who still resent being denied their ancient culture at the behest of some slavedriver then perhaps they might be offered assistance, not encouragement to return to Africa. A constructive suggestion at least, surely.

The others, who want to move on - and so many have - are welcome to stay but really, we must all forget the wrongs of centuries past on get on with sorting out the mess we are facing now. Because from what I hear, slavery has not completely gone away.

The_man_from_del_monte

24-Mar-07, 10:57

Do you own an ipod? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1655023/posts

Slavery is still happening "today"

golach

24-Mar-07, 11:18

I do not feel any remorse because of slavery, it is history, I feel more remorse about the Highland Clearances than Britains part in Slavery.
What about the hundreds that were transported to Australia? The list goes on, its all in the past, move on, look to the future its is looking bleaker.

sweetheart

24-Mar-07, 13:00

A sincere apology is to stop supporting slavery today, but rather people
are attached to their slavery, but they call it a drugs war, and for-profit
prison privatisation:

http://dunwalke.com/

I agree, don't apologize for slavery, find its roots in
attempts to persecute poor, disenfranchised
& minorities *today* and put an end to the cycle.

MadPict

24-Mar-07, 13:33

Gleeber,
I do not dispute that slavery was a dark period in the history of mankind. But we have to realise that without the complicity of other Africans, 'whitey' might not have made such use of black labour.
So, before this nation goes down onto its knees to beg forgiveness from the ancestors of slavery, I think they should look to their fellow Africans for an apology first.

And what of the 'slavery' inflicted on the women and children in this country by the mill owners many years ago? Were the poor of Britain any less of a slave to the rich mill owners? Do the descendants of those who worked 18 hours a day expect a bank holiday for the hardship they went through?

Slavery still exists today in some form or other so lets fight to abolish that rather than dwell on the sins of people who have long since died...

Jeemag_USA

24-Mar-07, 14:24

I say anyone who has kept a slave in their time should apologise to the slave or the slaves immediate family, if you have not ever had a slave then you have nothing to apologise for. I don't think it can be any simpler than that.

Angela

24-Mar-07, 15:07

I don't see the need to apologise for something you're not personally responsible for. :confused

It would surely be better to concentrate our thoughts and energies on opposing the various forms of slavery that still exist today.

We can't undo the past, but we can perhaps do something to make the future better.

johno

24-Mar-07, 15:15

i wont apoligise for anything ,as i feel that this happened far before my time.
any way how can those slaver s [who are long since dead] apoligise ,beats me. best to just forget the whole sordid bissiness and get on with the rest of our lives. black white yellow whats the difference
:confused

scotsboy

24-Mar-07, 15:35

Still plenty slavery going on around the World today.......fair bit in this part of the World.

Ricco

24-Mar-07, 19:57

Sometimes we just feel compelled, don't we. A couple of years ago I was up visiting the Inverness area and we went out to the museum at Culluden. I couldn't stop myself apologising to the guide that my ancestors (Grants) had joined up with the English. Ah well....:confused

fred

24-Mar-07, 22:24

I have nothing to feel guilty of either, but I certainly acknowledge that the darker races could have a real gripe with Joe White.

Not all slaves were black, there were plenty of Scots who were slaves in Scotland, like the salters and colliers.

Rheghead

25-Mar-07, 00:42

I couldn't stop myself apologising to the guide that my ancestors (Grants) had joined up with the English. Ah well....:confused

You shouldn't have apologised, you should have been proud as your ancestors stopped a country going down the Royal despot and theocracy route. Instead of a wee battle on a bog we would have had a full scale civil war instead at some time.........again.

Kenn

25-Mar-07, 02:18

My ancestors had nothing to do with this trade as they were too busy trying to scrape a living.
Whilst it agree that is was a dark part of our history(no pun intended) attitudes were very different a few centuries back.
We now live in a largely better world but the practice still continues despite all efforts to stop it.
Man's inhumanity to man knows no bounds..when will we ever learn?

JAWS

25-Mar-07, 03:48

To give the subject some perspective it was only in 1842 that women, and more especially children, some under the age of five, were stopped from working underground in coal mines.

In one unnamed coal mine, 58 deaths out of a total of 349 deaths in one year, involved children thirteen years or younger. Life for all those who worked underground was very hard.

In 1842, Parliament published a report about the state of coal mining - the Mines Report - and its contents shocked the nation. The report informed the public that children under five years of age worked underground as trappers for 12 hours a day and for 2 pennies a day; older girls carried baskets of dug coal which were far too heavy for them and caused deformities in these girls.

One girl - Ellison Jack, aged 11 - claimed to the Commission of Enquiry that she had to do twenty journeys a shift pushing a tub which weighed over 200 kilos and if she showed signs of slacking, she would be whipped. Children had to work in water that came up to their thighs while underground; heavily pregnant women worked underground as they needed the money. On unnamed woman claimed that she gave birth on one day and was expected by the mine manager to be back at work that very same day !! Such was the need to work - there was no social security at this time - she did as the manager demanded. Such a shocking report lead to the Mines Act of 1842.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/coal.htm

A check on the site below will give you some idea of what were considered to be vast improvements in Working Conditions in the 1800s. Having read the "improvements" try and imagine what the conditions must have been like before that.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/law.htm

And those conditions were here in Britain.

gleeber

25-Mar-07, 12:03

Not all slaves were black, there were plenty of Scots who were slaves in Scotland, like the salters and colliers.
I think what has become apparent from the content of this thread is the total detachment people I know to be white have from the deeply engrained emotional and cultural development of the black races in recent history.
They try to divert the gaze onto their own hangups and agendas and totally ignore the depth of the effects of transatlantic slavery on black history, and it could be argued, present day tensions between different races and cultures.
I will say it agian, No, I dont need to apologise for the slave trade but as a white person I need to be aware that deep in the psyche of millions of black people there lingers a cultural identity that embraces an injustice commited hundreds of years ago.
If someone has a problem with the highland Clearances or children working in mines, I would hope to be empathic enough to try and understand the source of their pain and if possible help them to discover the real reasons behind their fears.
I would at the very least hope to be open to the idea that mankind carries psychological scars from their ancestors in the same way they inherit their genes.
Is that too much to ask?

percy toboggan

25-Mar-07, 13:45

.........If someone has a problem with the highland Clearances or children working in mines, I would hope to be empathic enough to try and understand the source of their pain and if possible help them to discover the real reasons behind their fears.
I would at the very least hope to be open to the idea that mankind carries psychological scars from their ancestors in the same way they inherit their genes.
Is that too much to ask?

First paragraph: what pretentious nonsense is this? 'the source of my pain'....listen up. I don't feel pain. I feel a certain resentment , only when I think about it but choose not to wallow in the mire of feeling sorry for my ancestors lot. No doubt they were a stoical bunch and thankfully they still still managed to breed.

Scond paragraph: This is nonsense of a genetic kind. One simply cannot inherit guilt, in the same way you might inherit a 'club' foot. What ever are you on?? - I'll have a pint of it.

You're stringing words together to promote an argument you hold dear but they are making little sense gleeber - unusual for you.
I followed Jaws link to the conditions in 19th.century pits and they were truly awful and even worse than I had imagined. The faces emerging from them would be blackened another chance reminder that exploitation, cruelty and de-humanisation is not confined to those who cannot wash it off.

gleeber

25-Mar-07, 16:04

First paragraph: what pretentious nonsense is this? 'the source of my pain'....listen up. I don't feel pain. I feel a certain resentment , only when I think about it but choose not to wallow in the mire of feeling sorry for my ancestors lot. No doubt they were a stoical bunch and thankfully they still still managed to breed.
Knowing your stance on most emotive issues that turn up on the org I can understand how you see the terminology as pretentious nonsense. However it is neither pretentious nor nonsense. It just shows your ignorance to other peoples needs and the processes that drive them.

Scond paragraph: This is nonsense of a genetic kind. One simply cannot inherit guilt, in the same way you might inherit a 'club' foot. What ever are you on?? - I'll have a pint of it.
You clearly know nothing of the psychological processes that shape peoples lives so I will ignore your ignorance.

You're stringing words together to promote an argument you hold dear but they are making little sense gleeber - unusual for you.
I followed Jaws link to the conditions in 19th.century pits and they were truly awful and even worse than I had imagined. The faces emerging from them would be blackened another chance reminder that exploitation, cruelty and de-humanisation is not confined to those who cannot wash it off.
After the above enlightments I wouldnt expect you to understand even the most basic of psychological processes. However it doent surprise me that you would need to draw attention away from black peoples injustice. Bigots need bogeymen .

Bloo

25-Mar-07, 17:02

this post is an odd one but it happened over 200years ago, almost everyone is racist today, which isnt fair but im not for or against it, i just think that either way racism is still going to happen and slavery was racism because black people had to do it mostly which was wrong. If you think im harsh or anything dont reply in the messageboard send me a PM

percy toboggan

25-Mar-07, 17:04

You're very wet gleeber. A well meaning, old time socialist and wet.
Call me a 'bigot' by all means, not the first time you have resorted to personal insult after all, and I'm fairly robust.
It would seem you have few allies in your stance though.

scotsboy

25-Mar-07, 17:11

I'm not sure slavery was racism, it was capilalism, it was exploitation, it was cruel and barbaric - but I am not sure it was racist. Many of those sold into slavery were done so by thier own kind.

I agree to a certain extent with Gleeber, that the slave trade (Africa-USA) has impacted significantly on contemporary social issues, but that is only PART of the slave trade - to ignore slavery which is still occurring to this day is as big a disgrace as what happened all those years ago. The fact that I hear little from the African-American community or others pontificating about slavery about the practice which still occurs today says to me that many have another agenda.

Rheghead

25-Mar-07, 17:38

Well Tony Blair did make an apology for the slave trade so isn't this thread a wee bit old hat?

fred

25-Mar-07, 17:50

I think what has become apparent from the content of this thread is the total detachment people I know to be white have from the deeply engrained emotional and cultural development of the black races in recent history.

I don't think it was a black white issue in this country, I think it was exploitation by the rich. The slave traders, the plantation owners, the mill owners, they are the ones who caused and benefited from the slave trade, it was purely financial, pure greed.

scotsboy

25-Mar-07, 18:01

Not often I say this but - I agree with Fred.

golach

25-Mar-07, 19:49

I don't think it was a black white issue in this country, I think it was exploitation by the rich. The slave traders, the plantation owners, the mill owners, they are the ones who caused and benefited from the slave trade, it was purely financial, pure greed.

Fred, dont forget the "Arab" slavers who captured the natives in the first place to sell to the entrepeneurial merchants.

j4bberw0ck

25-Mar-07, 20:23

I don't think it was a black white issue in this country, I think it was exploitation by the rich

I'd go slightly further and suggest that it was people who saw in it an opportunity to become rich (or richer). Life in a far more brutal world wouldn't give one many sleepless nights, I suspect, if slaves suffered miserably.

JAWS

25-Mar-07, 21:59

Two of the first Europeans ever to start to explore the interior of Africa had not even been born when the Transportation of Slaves was abolished in Britain in 1807, indeed one was only born 20 years later.
If Europeans were not venturing into the interior of Africa prior to 1807 I must assume that either Africans where bringing themselves to the Coast to volunteer to be slaves, and even I find that hard to believe, or somebody other than Europeans were forcing them to travel to the coast to be sold as slaves.
Amongst the first Europeans to explore Africa were David Livingstone and John Speke. It is interesting to note some of the dates of their explorations especially when you consider that Africans were being brought to the coast for sale as early as at least the 1600s.

David Livingstone (1813 - 1873)
He reached the mouth of the Zambezi on the Indian Ocean in May 1856, becoming the first European to cross the width of southern Africa
At home, Livingstone publicised the slave trade, securing private support for another expedition to central Africa, searching for the Nile's source and reporting further on slavery. This expedition lasted from 1866 until Livingstone's death in 1873. Nothing was heard from him for many months and Henry Stanley, an explorer and journalist, set out to find Livingstone. This resulted in their famous meeting near Lake Tanganyika in October 1871.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/livingstone_david.shtml

John Hanning Speke (1827 - 1864)
In July 1862, Speke, unaccompanied by Grant, found the Nile's exit from the lake and named it Ripon Falls.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/speke_john_hanning.shtml

It is also interesting to note some of the details of the Slave Trade on the East Coast of Africa and who was involved.

The East African Slave Trade
In East Africa a slave trade was well established before the Europeans arrived on the scene. It was driven by the sultanates of the Middle East. African slaves ended up as sailors in Persia, pearl divers in the Gulf, soldiers in the Omani army and workers on the salt pans of Mesopotamia (modern Iraq). Many people were domestic slaves, working in rich households. Women were taken as sex slaves.
Arab traders began to settle among the Africans of the coast, resulting in the emergence of a people and culture known as Swahili. In the second half of the 18th century, the slave trade expanded and became more organised.

There were three main reasons why more slaves were required:
1. The clove plantations on Zanzibar and Pemba set up by Sultan Seyyid Said, needed labour.
2. Brazilian traders were finding it difficult to operate in West Africa because the British navy was intercepting slave ships. The Brazilians made the journey round the Cape of Good Hope, taking slaves from the Zambezi valley and Mozambique.
3. The French had started up sugar and coffee plantations in Mauritius and Reunion.

A number of different people -Arabs and Africans - were involved in supplying slaves from the interior,
The most famous trader of all was Tippu Tip, (Hamed bin Mohammed) a Swahili Arab son of a trader, and grandson of an African slave. He and his men operated in an area stretching over a thousand miles from inland to the coast.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/9chapter3.shtml

Yes, it would have been better if the Slave Trade had never happened but should I accept that it was something which I or the rest of Britain should be especially ashamed of and feel they ought to shoulder the burden of blame? I certainly am not inclined to do so any more than I expect anybody else to start apologising for events which were over and done with long before anybody who is alive today was born.
The “You’re British, it was all your fault!” attitude simply does not wash as a reason for anybody to feel especially responsible for long past historical events.
Every Nation and every race can find some period of history where they can claim they were subjected to some historical wrong.
Once people start going down that particular road where does it end and what real purpose does it serve?

MadPict

25-Mar-07, 22:25

Seems the idea of 'slavery' still exists in some Arab states today...

As increasing numbers of “cheap” foreign workers from Asian and African countries have fulfilled the demand for unskilled workers, so the particular kinds of jobs found in the secondary labour markets have become racialized. That is, the dirty, dangerous and difficult jobs become associated with foreign (Asian and African) workers to such a degree that nationals in these countries refuse to undertake them, despite high levels of poverty and unemployment.

Asian female live-in domestic workers in Lebanon live under conditions that have been likened to slavery. The structural arrangements, including the threat of violence, restriction of movement and exploitative employment conditions, have led to significantly widespread abuse of these women, who constitute a particularly vulnerable group.

Migrant Workers and Xenophobia in the Middle East (http://www.unrisd.org/unrisd/website/document.nsf/0/045B62F1548C9C15C1256E970031D80D?OpenDocument)

percy toboggan

26-Mar-07, 17:42

Well Tony Blair did make an apology for the slave trade so isn't this thread a wee bit old hat?

He most certainly did not Rheghead.
Check your facts.

rich

26-Mar-07, 18:28

I am all in favor of slavery.
Trouble is we enslave the wrong people.
Black people certainly didn't deserve to be enslaved. But what about the sick, dangerous people like Bush and Blair?
Society deserves to be protected from these megalomaniacs. And its an excellent idea to let them come face to face with the realities of earning a living. Slavery would save a lot of money wasted on the penal system.
In fact one could argue that the penal system is just slavery by another name.
Another good idea would be to round up our social miscreants such as Brown and Bush and the like and sell them to an emergent African country.
The symetry would be perfect....

Rheghead

26-Mar-07, 18:59

He most certainly did not Rheghead.
Check your facts.

When someone expresses deep sorrow and regret then I take that as an apology. You don't actually need to say 'sorry'.

percy toboggan

26-Mar-07, 19:02

When someone expresses deep sorrow and regret then I take that as an apology. You don't actually need to say 'sorry'.

Then you do not speak the same language or share the same linguistic and ethical parameters as 99% of your fellow islanders.
Mind you, about the same proportion think an apology is not due. So that's allright then.

Jospra

26-Mar-07, 20:14

Absolutely not. I feel no sorrow or regret for events that happened hundreds of years ago. We should instead be insisting on celebrating Britain's lead in the abolition of slavery. We should be demanding thanks from the black nations.

Black nations should start looking to the future and stop living in a long dead past. They need to get over their victim mentality.

Rheghead

26-Mar-07, 21:01

Then you do not speak the same language or share the same linguistic and ethical parameters as 99% of your fellow islanders.
Mind you, about the same proportion think an apology is not due. So that's allright then.

Check your linguistic routes percy, I am sure sorry and sorrow are related linguistically.

oldmarine

27-Mar-07, 00:38

During approximately 700 AD a large movement began and almost suceeded when the Islamics attempted to rule the world. It appears to me that they failed during the early part of WWI when the Ataturks were defeated. Am I wrong when I think I see it happening all over again during our current century and with the current on-going problems around the world? Looking for the thoughts of others on this subject?

oldmarine

27-Mar-07, 00:52

Not all slaves were black, there were plenty of Scots who were slaves in Scotland, like the salters and colliers.

I must agree with this. Remember the Highland clearances? Many Scots were sent to Australia and Canada with many winding up in the USA.

gleeber

27-Mar-07, 07:40

What i find most interesting about this thread is how all the whitemen have supported their lack of guilt surrounding the slave trade with a defence that includes all the injustices served out to their own whitefaced (or could that be bare-faced?) ancestors.
One of the most difficult periods in black history and Joe White hasnt even got the gumptiom to see how much that period in world history had and still does affect the relatiionships between the races.
Once again, I feel absolutely no guilt about the slave trade but I also feel I have a duty to acknowledge that black people may still harbour deep resentments towards Joe Whitey concerning that period in world history.
For those of you who say "thats their problem" it shows a complete lack of understanding of human relationship and does nothing to acknowledge a deep rooted problem that still exists between different races.

fred

27-Mar-07, 10:06

Jospra

27-Mar-07, 10:12

I must agree with this. Remember the Highland clearances? Many Scots were sent to Australia and Canada with many winding up in the USA.

But weren't the clearances carried out by Scots landowners? The people worked the land, but when the landowners wanted to switch from crops to livestock farming they no longer wanted the sharecroppers on their land, so they evicted them.

I don't think forced clearance, repugnant as it is/was, really equates to slavery.

golach

27-Mar-07, 10:16

Once again, I feel absolutely no guilt about the slave trade but I also feel I have a duty to acknowledge that black people may still harbour deep resentments towards Joe Whitey concerning that period in world history.

Is it your point Gleeber, that the only "Slaves" of this world we live on are/were Non Whites? I dont think so, its documented fact that even our Viking ancestors took and had slaves. Even in the modern world of today there are "slaves", "endentured labourers", call them what you may in many of the Middle Eastern & Asian countries.

Rheghead

27-Mar-07, 12:37

I wonder if we can get the French to apologise for 500 years of British serfdom? Hmm, it would be nice to watch to Chirac squirm, but isn't it what this apologising thing is all about? Watching someone squirm with guilt?

Having said all that, I would like to see reparations for the slave trade. How about 3 apology centres in say, Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow which are funded by the Government that document the horrors of slavery past and present? £6 entry fee would serve to mitigate costs and every one will be happy.

I went to a holocaust centre in St Petersburg, Fo 3 years ago and it proved very popular when I was there.

just my 2p.

j4bberw0ck

27-Mar-07, 14:53

It seems that in 2005 a committee cobbled together by a programme on C4 called "The Empire Pays Back" (http://www.diverse.tv/programme.aspx?id=76), calculated the value of reparations due from Britain (note that carefully) to the descendants of slaves.

Are you sitting down?

Seven and a half trillion pounds sterling (http://www.blackbritain.co.uk/news/details.aspx?i=1672&c=uk&h=That%E2%80%99s+%C2%A37.5+trillion+for+Britain).

£4 trillion for lost earnings.

£2.5 trillion for unjust enrichment of the British economy from profits of the sugar trade.

And £1 trillion for wrongful imprisonment.

Total: £7.5 trillion (that's 7.5 thousand million pounds) :lol::lol: or about three times the UK's Gross National Product each year.

We've obviously been very, very naughty boys, then. It's a shame to reduce something as grave as slavery to something fit only for a good laugh.

Rheghead

27-Mar-07, 19:01

Interestingly enough, in ancient times in the middle east when they did the headcount of their slaves they had special words for the headcount. One being "many" and the other being "money". Mon being the root meaning man of course. Still makes perfect sense today. Money is merely a representation of human labour, isn't it? Maybe the Bank of England ought to apologise. Afterall, they set the value of our "human resources" (labour). :roll:

Gosh, did you just make that up or are you into mythological etymology of the English language as well?:lol:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=money

Jospra

27-Mar-07, 19:06

Rheghead

27-Mar-07, 19:12

Isn't one thousand million a billion? In Britain at least, in the US a billion is one hundred million. I always thought a trillion was a million million?

Incorrect

In the UK (though not widely used now as it is currently customary to use US terminology) a million million is a billion, in the US, a thousand million is a billion.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=billion&searchmode=none

j4bberw0ck

27-Mar-07, 20:17

Isn't one thousand million a billion? In Britain at least, in the US a billion is one hundred million. I always thought a trillion was a million million

True. Well spotted. I like to refer to these occasional errors as my Louis Pasteur moments......

Thank you for pointing it out. :lol::lol:

It's also interesting that the Corsairs - who went off with several hundred thousand residents of Cornwall and the south-east, taking them off to North Africa as slaves - never get mentioned...... or in fact, the various African tribes which practised wholesale kidnap for slavery for centuries, rarely figure in discussion.

Rheghead

27-Mar-07, 20:40

Let's try that again.

Interestingly enough, in ancient times in the middle east when they did the headcount of their slaves they had special words for the headcount. One being "many" and the other being "money". Mon being the root meaning man of course.

Is 1290c. ancient times on your timescale? Surely, you could source a more indepth etymological dictionary than that?

OK, Lets go through this one again; The origin of 'money' comes from a roman goddess which, correct me if I am wrong, does date from Ancient times hence there is no association with 'many' or 'man' which is germanic in origin and 'money'.:lol: :lol:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=man&searchmode=none

You are giving more misinformation, not for the first time I might add...

Rheghead

28-Mar-07, 12:50

There was a lot of guff in there roy but you still failed (and admit btw) to back up your misinformation that money is derived from counting slaves. Keep trying.

j4bberw0ck

28-Mar-07, 14:15

It would be a sad mistake to think that todays money or coins in Roman times are actually really worth anything. Don't tell me gold either or other precious metals either. They have no natural worth. Only a worth set by somebody or persons in an office somewhere. How much is a roll of £50 notes much less a few numbers on a computer screen to you stuck in bad weather on top of a Scottish munro? I think it's fair to say that real value only lies in your immediate needs. Food, water, shelter, clothing. There is no value in "wants" or any of the material items we spend "money" on today.

Wow. That's the world economy dispensed with in a sentence, then. Several billion deluded people and Roy appears on the top of a munro, light beaming forth, to tell them it's all an illusion. Shurely shome mishtake?

We could probably agree on "mon" being an Anglo-Saxon form of man?

Slavery again! That West Indian patois gets everywhere, Rheggers. The Advertising Standards Authority will have something to say about this - you mark my words..... And as for Lord Rockingham's XI and "Hoots, mon! There's a moose loose in this hoose" - maybe there were just counting their record royalties.....

Then, there are those perfidious French..... how typical that they should confuse money with the singular possessive "mon" - clearly, they regard it all as theirs. :lol:

golach

28-Mar-07, 14:33

Then, there are those perfidious French..... how typical that they should confuse money with the singular possessive "mon" - clearly, they regard it all as theirs. :lol:

Mon Dieu!!!! we learn a lot on here, some good, some utter rubbish. [lol]

Rheghead

28-Mar-07, 15:42

many, manig, monig, moni, monetta? No association? Finnish is a Uralic language and is nowhere closely related to Latin. You can go much further east & south with the connection as well.

Need to look a weeeee bit further back......

......in a big building full of very old books in a small scottish town that starts with an "s" and ends with a "g" furthest shelves to the left of the main entrance... first bookcase 2nd shelf.....

Oh yes, I seem to remember a blob of pink jelly at the centre of the Universe telling me once that 'Reay' originally comes from 'Ra' the Egyptian supreme god. Evidence of this comes from the fact that the Egyptians were masters of moving large blocks of stone and it was Egyptians that built the Rings of Stenness and Brodgar. So it must be true because no one else had the technical know how, by the way, I cannot confirm my conversation with the blob but you are willing to find out yourself!

_Ju_

28-Mar-07, 16:31

Isn't one thousand million a billion? In Britain at least, in the US a billion is one hundred million. I always thought a trillion was a million million?

Interesting how the reparations faction only ever name Britain as owing, what about Portugal, Holland etc. they had enormous slave trades. In fact weren't the first European slavers Portuguese?

Actually the first european slaver would have been greece and/or rome. Followed perhaps (or contemporaneos with) vicking raiders. If you are considering the transatlantic slave trade, then Portugal and Spain were contemporaneos in slave trade.

I would point out that the abolition of slavery in Portugal happened in 1761 (first European country, I believe), more than 45 years before the UK. Not that I am saying that 45 years makes everything alright, but it is an early admition of the unsustainability of the system and unhuman treatment of people.