View Full Version : Legal Age to buy Cigarettes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6172750.stm
What do Orgers think about this new suggested legislation from the Scottish Executive.
IMO I would raise the age to 21, as an ex-smoker who suffers from Asthma as a result of starting smoking at an early age.
footie chick
23-Nov-06, 11:37
I'm a non smoker and think 21 is a good age but how are they going to enforce it? At the current age of 16 there are still younger people smoking if they want to smoke they will get the fags from what every means possible.
Lavenderblue2
23-Nov-06, 11:43
I’m with you there golach – if I had my way they’d ban it altogether – and I was once a smoker.
The thing is footie chick, if they can deter the majority of youngsters then that’ll be a good thing – some folk will always finds a way around any law.
This is an interesting topic in terms of how old we are to have freedom of choice and when we have personal responsibility for ourselves. If you are going to raise the age limit for smoking then raise it for a whole host of things from, age of sexual consent(straight or gay), military service, alcohol consumption etc etc etc
I do not know the answer but if it makes sense to raise the 'tobacco buying age' then there should be a knock on effect for other debates.
must go to bed now, I'm shattered...:~(
Stargazer
23-Nov-06, 11:46
Enforcing the existing laws would be better.
I agree with rheghead, It is already weird enough in my mind that you can be responsible enough to marry, have children, drive a car, join the army (and other stuff I can't think of right now) but you are not responsible enough to make a decision on your own health by having a pint or a fag yet before 18 you are responsible for other people's health and welfare when you give birth, start a car learn to handle a gun in the army.
Regardless of whether you agree that raising the 'legal' age for smoking is a good thing, such legislation would be pretty ineffectual. We already have under-age smoking, under-age drinking, and under-age sex. There is a blatant inability to 'police' current legislation so simply changing it won't tackle the real problem.
The point of raising the legal age is not the issue, the issue of taking away peoples rights is. If a 16 year old is going out earning a wage and paying taxes, he or she must have the right to spend it any way they wish.
The shops and traders should be the ones held responsible for selling the tobacco to people who are underage. The laws for selling people alcohol are very strict, why not tobacco.
It would be excellent if everyone would stop smoking or even get educated not to start, but that's a different thread. This is about an individuals choice if they wish to smoke.
The Pepsi Challenge
23-Nov-06, 14:56
My next door neighbour is a heavy smoker - he goes through two lighters a day.
Buttercup
23-Nov-06, 14:57
In my opinion I would say the most logical age is 18 as that's the age that you can buy alcohol. The only problem is that if someone is going to smoke/drink they will smoke/drink no matter what the legal age is. But I do think that it's about time that the "kids" that attempt to buy these under age are penalised - at the moment it's seems to be an accepted form of fraud to be passing yourself off as something your not. It is very difficult for a shop assistant to know ages and if you dare ask their age/proof of age it's quite common to get verbal abuse thrown at you (been there, had that done ). [mad] Even those who are of age can be abusive if you ask for proof as the majority of people don't carry any around with them. I suppose it's another reason why Identity Cards should be brought in - if you've nothing to hide why object to them. Oh you get the shouts about Human Rights etc, but being realistic nearly every detail of our lives is on a computer somewhere anyway!:roll:
Kaishowing
23-Nov-06, 15:59
In my opinion I would say the most logical age is 18 as that's the age that you can buy alcohol.
Not 100% sure, but I've never heard of a legal age limit for something ever being raised! Over the years age limits for various things have been lowered under the heading of 'progress'. Alot of times correctly, but not always (IMO).
It is very difficult for a shop assistant to know ages and if you dare ask their age/proof of age it's quite common to get verbal abuse thrown at you (been there, had that done ). [mad]
Was in Sommerfields the other week when a young bloke was 'carded'.....He couldn't (or wouldn't) produce any proof of age, so had to leave his half-dozen bottles of cider at the till.
The fact that he had just taken a call on his mobile telling whomever was on the other end to 'calm down, he was getting 'it' now' made it seem like he deserved to be asked for ID.
After his refusal to give ID he was left walking out of the shop with a slightly bewildered look on a very scarlet face!
Oh you get the shouts about Human Rights etc, but being realistic nearly every detail of our lives is on a computer somewhere anyway!:roll:
Surely then it's all the more reason to protect what little privacy that we have left?
To be honest though, my main objectin is the cost.....over £100 to get each card (last time I heard it talked about), but standing to be heavily fined if you don't have one? Thats legal theft!
As been stated before here, raising the age limit for smoking is meaningless as even the existing legislation isn't correctly enforced.
Make fines for both those who sell and buy tobacco outside the law harsher.
Make the law actually mean something!
As an ex-smoker also, I can see the sense in raising the limit to 21, but it'll never happen.
It won't change a thing. People will still smoke regardless of the age to buy cigarettes.
Billy Boy
23-Nov-06, 16:37
It won't change a thing. People will still smoke regardless of the age to buy cigarettes.
very true lol,why not just put them up to £20 a packet,i bet that would make a few think about stopping:)
Metalattakk
23-Nov-06, 18:31
This new proposal will make it easier for the tobacconist to correctly gauge a prospective purchaser's age, and if this law is properly implemented and aggresively policed (as has been suggested), then in the long run under 16s will find it harder to buy cigarettes.
I for one think this cannot be a bad idea.
It's a brilliant idea. I can't think of a better way of creating an illegal Black Market in Cigarettes. Eventually the easiest source of supply for youngsters will be the Drug Dealers and I can't think of a better way to introduce them to illegal drugs.
The Drug Dealers will think it's the best move ever from their point of view, all those new customers being driven in their direction. What a boost to turnover.
There is already the first moves for putting more and more restrictions on Alcohol.
Certain foods are being Demonised with the long term intention of convincing people to accept restrictions on them.
Did we learn absolutely nothing from Prohibition in America? How successful was that?
Well, it succeeded in causing a lot of otherwise decent, law-abiding people to frequent illegal Speak-Easies which put them in the company of those "nice people" who ran them. The Mob couldn’t have asked for a better PR move.
Introduce more youngsters to illegal substances and get them involved with Dealers and Dealing!
On the whole, a very well thought out idea!
Buttercup
23-Nov-06, 20:02
Totally agree with you Jaws, but the "black market" already exists. More people than ever here appear to be buying "cheap" tobacco & cigs that are coming in from Europe.:(
That's not a Black Market, that's just Good Business! Why should the South East of England hog that sort of benefit and not us? :lol:
Cedric Farthsbottom III
23-Nov-06, 21:48
The wee Glasgow lassie who got interviewed on Radio 1 News today totally put it in perspective."So I can get married to ma man,have as much sex as I want,but a might no be able to buy a packet o' fags....wits that aw aboot!!!!"......exactly.
cuddlepop
23-Nov-06, 22:08
As said previously,it makes no difference what the legal age is if kids want to smoke they will.I know 12 year olds that smoke and one 15 year old that goes through a packet a day and she's asthmatic:confused
Education is the way forward not raising age limits.
Enforcing the existing laws would be better.
Stargazer is right, this could be one of these laws where they decorate the whole house to match the curtains. If they, as stargazer says "Enforce the law" it would save a awful lot of trouble.
Treat the sales of tobacco the same as the sales of alcohol. If a shop or supermarket is caught selling to people under the legal age, take away the sellers rights to supply tobacco.
The law for selling alcohol is straight forward and sellers are very wary of what age buyers are because they know they will lose the right to sell. Treat the sale of tobacco in the same way.
Gogglebox
23-Nov-06, 22:25
Thing i see is its not illegal to buy fags at any age, its just illegal to sell them
In the same way its not illegal to buy drink, its just illegal to sell it.
THe emphasis needs to be switched from the seller to the buyer
The man in the shop selling fags is in a bit of a strange position, an error can easily be made and they are in trouble(yes there is some who profiteer from selling to under agers) because the seller does not know for sure but the buyer knows their own age.
We do not prosecute burgarlary victims for putting their house in the way of a burgalar , and that seems to be the logic with prosecuting the seller.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6172750.stm
What do Orgers think about this new suggested legislation from the Scottish Executive.
IMO I would raise the age to 21, as an ex-smoker who suffers from Asthma as a result of starting smoking at an early age.
Good idea to educate schoolchildren better on the more severe and very real consequences of smoking.
All raising the age will do is raise the percentage of underage smokers in other words, it wont make a blind bit of difference.
The point of raising the legal age is not the issue, the issue of taking away peoples rights is. If a 16 year old is going out earning a wage and paying taxes, he or she must have the right to spend it any way they wish.
Even if they are earning money would their taxes be enough to cover everything including medical expenses for the treatment of cancers caused by smoking?
In my opinion I would say the most logical age is 18 as that's the age that you can buy alcohol. The only problem is that if someone is going to smoke/drink they will smoke/drink no matter what the legal age is. But I do think that it's about time that the "kids" that attempt to buy these under age are penalised - at the moment it's seems to be an accepted form of fraud to be passing yourself off as something your not. It is very difficult for a shop assistant to know ages and if you dare ask their age/proof of age it's quite common to get verbal abuse thrown at you (been there, had that done ). Even those who are of age can be abusive if you ask for proof as the majority of people don't carry any around with them. I suppose it's another reason why Identity Cards should be brought in - if you've nothing to hide why object to them. Oh you get the shouts about Human Rights etc, but being realistic nearly every detail of our lives is on a computer somewhere anyway!
People shouldn't have to have their lives monitored by some identity card scheme, you talk about human rights as if it is a bad thing, it's part of what certain generations of our families fought two world wars for but that's a different thread.
very true lol,why not just put them up to £20 a packet,i bet that would make a few think about stopping:)
Taxes on tobacco products is too much of a cash cow for the government to price it out of everybody's range, also they would only succeed in creating a blackmarket.
More like them to take the taxes they make from cigarette companies and spend it on the healthcare of the smoker and release the burden on the n.h.s.
Totally agree with you Jaws, but the "black market" already exists. More people than ever here appear to be buying "cheap" tobacco & cigs that are coming in from Europe.:(
The government are reaping what they sow, heavy taxing creates a blackmarket for those without enough money to buy it legaly.
Thing i see is its not illegal to buy fags at any age, its just illegal to sell them
In the same way its not illegal to buy drink, its just illegal to sell it.
THe emphasis needs to be switched from the seller to the buyer
The man in the shop selling fags is in a bit of a strange position, an error can easily be made and they are in trouble(yes there is some who profiteer from selling to under agers) because the seller does not know for sure but the buyer knows their own age.
Quite agree, the buyer if caught should be penalised if the shopkeeper is found to have sold them in good faith
We do not prosecute burgarlary victims for putting their house in the way of a burgalar , and that seems to be the logic with prosecuting the seller.
I think some burglary victims would disagree with you there.
Quite agree, the buyer if caught should be penalised if the shopkeeper is found to have sold them in good faith
If the buyer is caught, how old would the buyer be? How can you penalise a 13 - 14 - 15 year old for buying cigarettes? If a 13 year old looks 18, ask for proof of age. If a 18 year old looks like a 13 year old, ask for proof of age. If no proof is forthcoming, dont sell!
The shopkeeper cannot put the innocent look on and say " I didnt know!" - The law states that tobacco shouldnt be sold to anyone under the legal age. If the shopkeeper hasn't any measures in place to check for proof of age, they should.
The law should apply to the supply of tobacco to people not of legal age the same way it applies to the selling of alcohol, the shopkeeper would soon be less negligent in there duty to check proof of age.
Niall Fernie
24-Nov-06, 12:17
Having stood on the sellers side of the counter and been faced with this problem many times I can understand both sides of the argument.
I do think that a legal age to smoke should be introduced. Suggesting that you cannot prosecute those under 16 seems to be suggesting that anyone under that age can get away with any crime they like without fear of getting into trouble.
I've been close to the wind on this one before and luckily had the advice of another customer to help out. A "guy" came into the shop where I worked, he was about 6ft, had what looked to be about 2 days stubble and a deeper voice than me. As I was about to serve him his ciggs (he looked about 25) a small voice in the queue piped up "he's only 15" so I carded him, no joy, no sale. I could so easily have been duped had he been in the shop at a different time. So who would really have been to blame?
Fraud is surely still fraud even if you are under 16.
And just to show it works both ways, I had a guy come back after being carded (and failed) with his mother to point out that he was 23 and getting refused cigs and drink was starting to become embarasing.
Colin Manson
24-Nov-06, 12:32
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6172750.stm
What do Orgers think about this new suggested legislation from the Scottish Executive.
IMO I would raise the age to 21, as an ex-smoker who suffers from Asthma as a result of starting smoking at an early age.
I'd suggest that they do something about the illegal drugs problem first before trying to sort out the legal ones. [evil]
It's just another case of the politicians side stepping the real issues and trying to look good by tackling an easier issue.
Well said colin, they always take the easy option just to look good, the CSA springs to mind.
Age restricted products & age limits
Product only to be sold to those
Alcohol 18 & Over
Cigarettes & tobacco products 16 & Over
Videos/DVDs/Computer games Class 12 12 & Over
Videos/DVDs/Computer games Class 15 15 & Over
Videos/DVDs/Computer games Class 18 18 & Over
Knives 16 & Over
Fireworks 18 & Over
Party Poppers 16 & Over
Lottery tickets & instant win cards 16 & Over
Liqueur Chocolates 16 & Over
Paracetomol 16 & Over
this is not an offence but is an industry standard that most large stores agree to follow
Lighter refills containing butane 18 & Over
when I worked in both Sainsburys and Wal-Mart Asda this were the rules we HAD to follow on pain of instant dismissal.
We had to use the acronym ASK think 21
A - Age restricted if buying an age resticted product. do they look under 21
S - See proof of age ask please can I see some proof of age identification
K - Keep a record if a customer is unable to provide ID call a supervisor who will
refuse the sale and keep a record of the refusal
At least if they put the legal age of smoking up, it might just stop 12/13 year olds from smoking until they are a little older.
A lot about smoking is the peer pressure from their mates. If they were better supervised at break time and Lunch time at school, it may reduce the amount of smokers.
I drove passed the High School the other day and a young lad of about 13 or 14 was smoking away while in the School grounds. I know a lot of people used to do this but this would be one thing that would have to be changed.
I am sure since I was at High School, the 'smoker's corners' are probably at the same places so teachers should be on the watch for this!
I know they need a break too, but a nice refreshing walk around the school would do them good!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6172750.stm
What do Orgers think about this new suggested legislation from the Scottish Executive.
IMO I would raise the age to 21, as an ex-smoker who suffers from Asthma as a result of starting smoking at an early age.
As long as the voting age is 18, there will not be any proposal to raise the age to 21 as the government would lose votes from those aged 18-21 (although few people that age actually vote).
I agree with raising the age to 18. most people have proper ID by the time they are this age. The only ID some 16 year olds have is a passport. the rest rely on looking older than they actually are.
young_fishin_neep
24-Nov-06, 15:01
the teachers do go round but they have started stopping telling us go back into the school if we are at the back gate, they simply tell the non smokers to go back to school and the smokers to move down past the bridge over the train line, yea they take your name once in a blue moon and send a letter home but you then have to take letter back to school once your parent or gaurdian has signed to say wether you are aloud off the school premises at break or not, so all in all the school isnt realy doing much to stop the smokeing.
kaz xxxx
I am sure since I was at High School, the 'smoker's corners' are probably at the same places so teachers should be on the watch for this!
I know they need a break too, but a nice refreshing walk around the school would do them good!
When I was in school, there was usually only 1 person (Mr Bruce) on the lookout for smokers. When he was at one 'smoking corner' pupils would use their mobiles to warn mates which corner he was going to next, meaning that no-one ever got caught.
When I was in school, there was usually only 1 person (Mr Bruce) on the lookout for smokers. When he was at one 'smoking corner' pupils would use their mobiles to warn mates which corner he was going to next, meaning that no-one ever got caught.
I must be getting old now because when I was at school I didn't even know what a mobile was - let alone own one.
We did have smoking corner though but in those days (without mobiles) someone just had to stand on duty as the 'look out'. It was normally the prefects that used to try and catch us smoking, not the teachers.
danc1ngwitch
24-Nov-06, 15:13
My next door neighbour is a heavy smoker - he goes through two lighters a day.
[lol] yea he usin the lighter ta heat his toes .. ( jokin )
danc1ngwitch
24-Nov-06, 15:19
I used to also smoke many moons ago ( rolls eyes to the skies ).
I do not like the smell of smoke it lingers every where but to up the age well in my book ( and i do have a book ) Would it not be better to up the age for SEX ( oh no that word was mentioned on the org ). Well there are dangerous things being transmitted by that pleasurable act, so hey why not up the age of fags and sex and everything that we love to indulge in after all indulgence is classed as being a bad thing with certain religions but yet it is one of pleasure... ok claps hands my tummy too large for sitting on this computer .. ( have fun ):roll: oh and i know this is a serious subject... took me a lot of will power to give up xxx
It won't change a thing. People will still smoke regardless of the age to buy cigarettes. i agree with you on this issue .but i do think that the age aught to be raised to 21. But regardless of what age is legal, a way will be found to get the cigarettes. ps. and no im not a smoker.
I wish they would just band fags altogether and give smokers like me no choice but to stop smoking ok the crime level might rise to start with but i think in a whole smokers in the long run would be greatfull..
George Brims
06-Dec-06, 00:13
Did we learn absolutely nothing from Prohibition in America? How successful was that?
Actually, counter to popular belief, Prohibition in the US was quite successful in one respect. It did change alcohol from a staple part of people's diet to more of a recreational drug. Prior to Prohibition people routinely washed down their food with considerable quantities of alcohol. This was very similar to the British way of drinking in Victorian times. I remember being surprised to read of a fifteen-year-old David Copperfield washing down a meat pie with a *quart* of strong ale. A good example of the ill effects of relying on booze as a staple is the fate of the Donner Party, a group of pioneers who famously got stuck in the winter of 1846, in the pass through the Sierra Nevada to California. A manifest of what they took with them reveals an astonishing amount of whiskey, which probably didn't improve their judgement any, and contributed to them being stranded in the mountains until they had to resort to murder and cannibalism to survive.
Now as Jaws points out, Prohibition was a licence to print money for those without a conscience, but it wasn't all bad.
Coincidentally, today (Dec 5th) is the anniversary of the repeal of Prohibition. Dewar's are using this as the highlight of their online ads all this week.
willowbankbear
06-Dec-06, 00:15
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6172750.stm
What do Orgers think about this new suggested legislation from the Scottish Executive.
IMO I would raise the age to 21, as an ex-smoker who suffers from Asthma as a result of starting smoking at an early age.
Not often I agree with you Golach, but as an ex smoker tonight I do, we agree.
connieb19
06-Dec-06, 00:20
Not often I agree with you Golach, but as an ex smoker tonight I do, we agree.What ye sookin in for WBB? lol :eek: :lol:
I missed this discussion the first time round. And as you know, I hesitate to comment on UK law. However, I would suggest that the legal age be raised to 100. After 100 you should have a few more rights, maybe tobacco is one of them. I know, the black market will become a nightmare.
So, maybe the real issue is to determine why people smoke, what issues in people's lives are the drugs in the tobacco pacifying? Why with so much evidence of tobacco's negative effects on people's health do those addicted have the persistence to tempt the fates and run the risk of such cruel outcomes not just to themselves, but to the families and friends who care for them? These are rhetorical questions, I don't need answers.
willowbankbear
06-Dec-06, 00:30
What ye sookin in for WBB? lol :lol:
How could ye sook till Golach?? its just not possible or plausible:Razz
xx_chickie
07-Dec-06, 17:28
I personally believe that the government should ban cigarettes altogether - they do so much damage and now science has proven what we previously didn't know. However, I don't think a complete ban is realistic because the money made on the taxes on cigarettes is so high, and is probably seen as a decent source of income for the government.
If the Scottish Executive raise the age of buying cigarettes to 21, I think that it could improve so many people's health, and with the smoking ban, hopefully encourage a healthier country. :D
weezer 316
07-Dec-06, 17:54
Chickie
Prohibition achieves nothing. Heroin, crack, cocaine, pot etc have all been illegal for years with massive sentences for supply hanging over them, but just about everyone of they substances is available in every city, town and village in the UK. Banning them will simply mean an underworld will spring up to supply them as many millions want them, and there is huge profits to be made in them. This doesnt exist at the moment because the legal trade can undercut the fraudsters.
Also, the cigarretes themselves would be even more dangerous than they already are, with likely instantly dangerous chemicals added in for cheapness.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6172750.stm
What do Orgers think about this new suggested legislation from the Scottish Executive.
IMO I would raise the age to 21, as an ex-smoker who suffers from Asthma as a result of starting smoking at an early age.
I think Golach is being soft-hearted again.. and you think he is such a grouch? I would raise the age to 65 - then it doesn't matter what damage they to to the 'addict'. ;)
We would need to weed out the people doing the selling!
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