View Full Version : Scottish Independence?
The campaign starts today but there's 2 years to go before the referendum. Have you made up your mind already? How certain are you now?
The campaign starts today but there's 2 years to go before the referendum. Have made up your mind already? How certain are you now?
As sure as I have ever been Rheg, made up my mind a long time ago, and am not changing now.
Voted and signed up already, unlike Golach I am not a Dinosaur!!!
C3....................;)
Yes, er no, the world has enough little countries with their hands out.
Who was that idiot actor gadgey going on about the social maturity or some such. We have the most disfuntional society in the so called civilised world. Racism and sectarianism rife. Unemployed unemployables by the bucket load, housing the worst in europe, hopeless junkies and alcaholics, and the poorest attitude to health and fitness. And a tram system in the capital after 4 years is just a damn great hole in the ground. That guy needs to look out the window. :eek:
Yes, er no, the world has enough little countries with their hands out.
Who was that idiot actor gadgey going on about the social maturity or some such. We have the most disfuntional society in the so called civilised world. Racism and sectarianism rife. Unemployed unemployables by the bucket load, housing the worst in europe, hopeless junkies and alcaholics, and the poorest attitude to health and fitness. And a tram system in the capital after 4 years is just a damn great hole in the ground. That guy needs to look out the window. :eek:
It can't be all that bad Duke or you would have run back "Home" ages ago!!
It amazes me the amount of Incomers that do nothing but moan about Scotland but still stay here.....Why??????? I just cant see the point in staying if it's as bad as you paint it!
(and I make no apologies for using the word Incomers)!!!....:roll:
C3..........;)
i can't vote here as the first option has 'vote right now' and i believe 2014 is the right time but am 100% in favour of yes vote
Voted and signed up already, unlike Golach I am not a Dinosaur!!!C3....................
Should I be worried that Corrie has to have a dig at me in many of his posts, or should I be flattered? Has he fallen in love with me? Or is he just a cyber bully, I think the later. Typical Nats policies!!
Should I be worried that Corrie has to have a dig at me in many of his posts, or should I be flattered? Has he fallen in love with me? Or is he just a cyber bully, I think the later. Typical Nats policies!!
Sounds like panic is setting in Golach, is it all getting too much for you?
C3...........:roll:;)
equusdriving
25-May-12, 20:23
It can't be all that bad Duke or you would have run back "Home" ages ago!!
It amazes me the amount of Incomers that do nothing but moan about Scotland but still stay here.....Why??????? I just cant see the point in staying if it's as bad as you paint it!
(and I make no apologies for using the word Incomers)!!!....:roll:
C3..........;)
Please name and shame all these "Incomers that do nothing but moan about Scotland but still stay here " or is it
Corrie3 as usual you are talking SH## .You think that anyone who moves here isnt entitled to an opinion on local matters as much as you are. Does your vision of ethnic cleansing include provisions to bring all the "outgoers back"
The national census estimates that there are 660k Scots living in England, and 3OOk English in Scotland
you are talking SH## .
Is it not against House rules to mask a swearword?
C3...........:roll::roll:
equusdriving
25-May-12, 20:32
Sounds like panic is setting in
C3...........:roll:;)
Says he who has finally realised he is living in fantasy land and is desperately touting for support for Independence :lol:
I say give independance a try. Why not? Have previous governing bodies treated Scotland "equally"?
The way I see it is if you don't like it you can change it back. It is a democracy after all.
And if you're vote is against Salmond then you're not looking at the big picture.
Once Scotland gains its independance then the true changes it wants can be made by the people for the people and that means changing anything including who and how the county is run.
Its a no brainer if you ask me, time to tread new waters, get inventive and move ahead for the sake of future generations.
equusdriving
25-May-12, 20:34
Is it not against House rules to mask a swearword?
C3...........:roll::roll:
That's it Corrie 3 Divert from the question as usual....................like a book
equusdriving
25-May-12, 20:43
The campaign starts today but there's 2 years to go before the referendum. Have you made up your mind already? How certain are you now?
I am open minded at the minute and want to hear all the pros and cons and policies before I decide , and then if I believe the country will be better of going alone that's what I will support ,if not I wont.
equusdriving
25-May-12, 20:47
Its not a masked swearword its "incomers" dialect :lol: by the way what's the difference between your house and a hedgehog Corrie3?
John Little
25-May-12, 20:51
@ F.OS.
Why and how do you think you could change it back?
It can't be all that bad Duke or you would have run back "Home" ages ago!!
It amazes me the amount of Incomers that do nothing but moan about Scotland but still stay here.....Why??????? I just cant see the point in staying if it's as bad as you paint it!
(and I make no apologies for using the word Incomers)!!!....:roll:
C3..........;)
Just pointing out the lies that are being told, and delusions some are susceptible to.
Oh! and I've said before, my home is the United Kingdom....anywhere I like.
I try to avoid voting in polls, the problem is most of them are self selecting and very rarely accurate. I'm pretty sure I'll vote Yes, but we'll see. I fully understand why they want to take a couple of years to present the arguments though, it's the only reasonable thing to do and it forces Westminster to pretend they care about Scotland and grant the odd concession they hope to later use to their own advantage. I'm pretty sure if the No campaign wins, Scotland will be forgotten about again or worse.
It'll be interesting to see where the No campaign spends its marketing and advertising money; Will they give projects and commissions to Scottish companies and that sort of thing.
Given the fact that the No2AV campaign was so dodgy and full of dirty tricks and lies and that the Electoral Commission is a biased and partisan. I'm preparing for more of the same from the No side.
I don't do polls as a rule. The options never seem to suit me. This one is no exception, therefore I've not voted in this poll.
The campaign starts today, welcome to the Corrie & golach show. How certain are you now?
The way I see it is if you don't like it you can change it back. It is a democracy after all.Democracy!!!! FOS, yer here ferra laugh.
The UK is the most twisted membership club you couldn't dream up in yer worst nightmares.
Once/if Scotland is out just watch the black balls fall.
Yes, er no, the world has enough little countries with their hands out. Who was that idiot actor gadgey going on about the social maturity or some such. We have the most disfuntional society in the so called civilised world. Racism and sectarianism rife. Unemployed unemployables by the bucket load, housing the worst in europe, hopeless junkies and alcaholics, and the poorest attitude to health and fitness. And a tram system in the capital after 4 years is just a damn great hole in the ground. That guy needs to look out the window. :eek:
I dont agree with your view of life in Scotland Ducati but, if that is what you see out of your window, then why would you want to perpetuate the status quo? Why would you want more of the same stuff that has brought us to this dreadful place, this disfunctional scotland with its bigots and racists, its useless, unemployable population? Why do you not want change? A better Scotland where society is more equal, fairer, healthier, more responsible? None of those speakers today were advocating that the Scotland you describe is the Scotland they hope for under independence. They want better for the people of Scotland. If you see the Scotland you describe from your window why would you not dream of a better Scotland and, if you have that dream of a better Scotland why would you not want the chance for change that voting yes to Independence might give you?
piratelassie
26-May-12, 01:41
100% yes to independence.
Mystical Potato Head
26-May-12, 02:49
Should I be worried that Corrie has to have a dig at me in many of his posts, or should I be flattered? Has he fallen in love with me? Or is he just a cyber bully, I think the later. Typical Nats policies!!
Well if Cyberbullying has been defined as when the Internet is used to hurt,embarrass or ridicule another person and or their beliefs
haven't you been doing exactly that, constantly ridiculing Eck,the SNP and those on this forum who support the SNP and their policies?
John Little
26-May-12, 08:15
I dont agree with your view of life in Scotland Ducati but, if that is what you see out of your window, then why would you want to perpetuate the status quo? Why would you want more of the same stuff that has brought us to this dreadful place, this disfunctional scotland with its bigots and racists, its useless, unemployable population? Why do you not want change? A better Scotland where society is more equal, fairer, healthier, more responsible? None of those speakers today were advocating that the Scotland you describe is the Scotland they hope for under independence. They want better for the people of Scotland. If you see the Scotland you describe from your window why would you not dream of a better Scotland and, if you have that dream of a better Scotland why would you not want the chance for change that voting yes to Independence might give you?
It's an interesting exercise to substitute the word 'England' in every place where you have put 'Scotland' for what you describe applies to vast swathes of England, aye and Wales too. The problems are not peculiar to Scotland, nor are they down to perfidious Whitehall, but more to do with globalism, a consensus in Politics and among politicians that economy comes before people, and unequal distribution of wealth.
Will independence change all that too?
I dont know John but this debate is not about England, nor even about Britain. Despite the british politician's use of the word 'separatism'. It appears to me this debate is about how we try, TRY to make a better Scotland. Ducati pai ts a bleak picture of Scotland as a land of despair and poverty, poor health and low achievement. And yet Ducati and others actively promote the status quo as the best way of dealing with all the issues which he mentions in his post. Scotland has its social problems. It has areas where drugs and alcohol blight the lives of its people. It has health issues which have led it to be dubbed 'the sick man of Europe'; it has racism and sectarianism and poverty and crime and poor housing. It is no different in that respect from England, wales and Northern Ireland. But Ducati's post suggests thats ALL Scotland has....that the way he describes Scottish Society is our lot. If Scottish society is so bad then is it not the politics of the 20th century that brought Scotland to this? Is it not the politics of the 21st century which have failed to improve things? If Ducati really thinks things are so terrible then I do not understand why he would not be at the forefront of the campaign to do things differently? To try to builda better society? To strive to change the lives of those people who are struggling with all the issues he mentions. Independence could be the biggest opportunity for changing the things that he mentions in his post that we have had for years. If things are so bleak why would Ducati not grasp that chance with his whole heart.
I dont know John but this debate is not about England, nor even about Britain. Despite the british politician's use of the word 'separatism'. It appears to me this debate is about how we try, TRY to make a better Scotland. Ducati pai ts a bleak picture of Scotland as a land of despair and poverty, poor health and low achievement. And yet Ducati and others actively promote the status quo as the best way of dealing with all the issues which he mentions in his post. Scotland has its social problems. It has areas where drugs and alcohol blight the lives of its people. It has health issues which have led it to be dubbed 'the sick man of Europe'; it has racism and sectarianism and poverty and crime and poor housing. It is no different in that respect from England, wales and Northern Ireland. But Ducati's post suggests thats ALL Scotland has....that the way he describes Scottish Society is our lot. If Scottish society is so bad then is it not the politics of the 20th century that brought Scotland to this? Is it not the politics of the 21st century which have failed to improve things? If Ducati really thinks things are so terrible then I do not understand why he would not be at the forefront of the campaign to do things differently? To try to builda better society? To strive to change the lives of those people who are struggling with all the issues he mentions. Independence could be the biggest opportunity for changing the things that he mentions in his post that we have had for years. If things are so bleak why would Ducati not grasp that chance with his whole heart.
Ha Ha I didn't know which post to reply to. First it is not 'my view' of Scotland nor the view from my window, that's very nice thanks. I was taking issue with the papering over the cracks on an industrial scale that is being perpitrated.
How anyone thinks, after you then agreed with my sum up of Scots society, that attacking the problems with less money, less resources and less expertise is going to suddenly help, I don't know. If the Scots want to try then great, but I won't be contributing to the folly by voting for it. Eyes open and embrace the brave new world. But if anyone thinks it will be a bed of roses and all he problems will suddenly go away..........
What will you do, on the morning after the yes vote is anounced, to make things better?
Lol lol I know I cntradicted myself but what I mean tis that Scotland has social problems like the whole of the UK - I have spouted about them on here often enough but they are not ALL that Scotland has.
Is anyone papering over the cracks? I have heard plenty Independence supporters acknowledge the problems - the difference is that they argue for change. I can accept that its money that makes the difference in your view Ducati - Are you saying then that if the Economics could be shown to be possible then you would vote for independence?
As I see it the vote for Independence is just the beginning - not the end in itself - it would be a vote for change and then it is up to us - the people of Scotland - make those changes happen.
What would I do to make Scotland better? Personally? Well the babies will be at school by then and I will have two big lads at university I think (and hope) so I would have more time on my hands. I already volunteer for a couple of organisations which try to support people when life is hard for them so maybe I would do more for those organisations. I wouldnt mind working for a lobby group or a charity and work with the government - whoever that will be because remember there will have to be an election for a government to take an Independent Scotland forward. Perhaps I will put my money where my mouth is and stand for election. Perhaps I will be a famous writer lol....
I dont know what I will be doing but I do know what I wont be doing - that's sitting on the sidelines moaning about the state of society today but failing to get off my bum to do anything about it.
John Little
26-May-12, 09:25
Squidge- with respect, you are wrong. You say this is not about England or even Britain.
But it is - and it's about Wales and Ulster too.
The other components of the UK may have to stand on one side and wait while the Scottish people decide what they wish to do, but make no mistake - we live in these isles too and it is very much about us.
To break up a stable polity of over 300 years standing and achievement is no light matter but to tell the rest of us that it is not about us seems a trifle ... insular?
My point is that Scotland's problems are not unique to Scotland - in which you concur.
The problems are those besetting the UK and your dream of something better and fairer could equally apply to Britain.
I also do not wholly blame the politics for bringing the situation about. There's an awful impetus to global capitalism that says that a Chinese worker can build ships for a wage that a Clydeside worker would not get out of bed for- which is why ship-building died on the Clyde. I do think that Thatcher did a great crime in gutting our manufacturing industries instead of reforming them as the Germans did. But Germany had an advantage in that they started from scratch in 1946.
The Nationalist dream is aspirational, vivid and attractive. I for one do not doubt that Scotland can make it on her own.
But as a Brit my dream would be that the UK could solve these problems and my dream is older than Scotland. Watching Michael Wood last night he quoted the opening lines of Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English. He described Britain as a whole geographical entity, going on to describe how it was divided into areas and peoples speaking 5 languages.
'Britain, an island in the Atlantic, formerly called Albion, lies to the north-west, facing, though at a considerable distance, the coasts of Germany, France, and Spain, which form the greatest part of Europe. It extends 800 miles in length towards the north, and is 200 miles in breadth, except where several promontories extend further in breadth, by which its compass is made to be 4,875 miles. To the south lies Belgic Gaul. To its nearest shore there is an easy passage from the city of Rutubi Portus, by the English now corrupted into Reptacaestir. The distance from here across the sea to Gessoriacum, the nearest shore in the territory of the Morini, is fifty miles, or as some writers say, 450 furlongs. On the other side of the island, where it opens upon the boundless ocean, it has the islands called Orcades. Britain is rich in grain and trees, and is well adapted for feeding cattle and beasts of burden...'
We have come a long way since the division of Britain into small kingdoms and done big things. A sneaking part of me thinks that to break up the UK is not going forward but backward. And that one day the oil will run out.
I'll let you in on a little secret thought in my mind too, and in the minds of quite a few. Being honest, I'm a tad resentful about the prospect of being abandoned now that times are hard.
It's a bit like the rich folks building themselves a nice estate with security gates.
So aye - Scotland may go it alone.
Yet by the oldest definitions we all live in Britain, only 800 miles long.
Should we not, on this small island, no bigger than Cuba, be able to tackle our problems as whole?
Is anyone papering over the cracks? I have heard plenty Independence supporters acknowledge the problems - the difference is that they argue for change. I can accept that its money that makes the difference in your view Ducati - Are you saying then that if the Economics could be shown to be possible then you would vote for independence?
Interesting question. The economics as I see it don't work. There is just too small a pool of revenue generating people and businesses, but if the SNP can magic some more up that I havent thought of........However I am a citizen of the UK and the opportunities that represents are too important.
I dont agree John - you assume that the drive for Independence is a drive to break up Britain, about separatism, about wanting to be apart - to drive a wedge between Scotland and the rest of the UK. That is not solely the case. Breaking up the union is a necessary result of Independence for Scotland but it isnt the main aim. If that was the aim then there would be happy talk of a union between northern Ireland and Scotland, or Wales and Scotland, there would be no discussions about what is best for Scotland just about how dreadful the Union is.
The Independence debate is about Independence for Scotland. Which is why the question is likely to be " Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country" If the YES campaign cannot convince people that Independence will be best for Scotland then they will fail and Scotland will continue to be part of the UK. It is Scotland's issues and Scotland's economics, and Scotland's hopes and fears that will decide the outcome - not what will happen to the Union if there is a YES vote.
How it affects the rest of the Uk is to be discussed of course it is but that is not an issue for the referendum - THAT is an issue for the UK. On the issue of Independence, Scots need to vote on what is best for Scotland and thats it. It is a Scottish issue for the people of Scotland and whether they vote yes or no is their perogative - its not an issue for the UK.
Interesting question. The economics as I see it don't work. There is just too small a pool of revenue generating people and businesses, but if the SNP can magic some more up that I havent thought of........However I am a citizen of the UK and the opportunities that represents are too important.
Economics will be examined, focused on, argued over and they will not come to an agreement. The YES campaign will argue that it works, the NO campaign will argue that it doesnt. You just have to stick a pin in and decide who you beleive. It will be no more scientific than that. Close your eyes and guess.
I didnt expect to be sitting here arguing the nationalist case this morning. I would swear I haven't decided. I know myself well enough to know that I love the flag waving, I have a dream stuff that yesterdays launch was about. I always like to see a vision, but I truly do not know whether I will vote for indpendence or not. I havent signed up to the YES campaign, Im not a member of any political party but I am a socialist and I want a fairer, more equal society. Those are the things that are pushing my buttons just now and thats the YES campaign focus. If they can show this will be the focus of an Independent Scotland then they may just get my vote.
Ducati, How will the opportunities within the UK not still be open to you personally? What opportunities that are open to the UK as it stands now will be closed to an independent Scotland?
equusdriving
26-May-12, 10:26
It makes me laugh when people say they have made there mind up already 100% either way, this can only be based on preconceptions at best , etc, as surely if it was purely for the benefit of the country, they would want to know all the important details like what currency we will use, armed forces ,will the Scottish bank's bailout money have to be paid back etc etc etc before making a decision on such an important issue
It makes me laugh when people say they have made there mind up already 100% either way, this can only be based on preconceptions at best , etc, as surely if it was purely for the benefit of the country, they would want to know all the important details like what currency we will use, armed forces ,will the Scottish bank's bailout money have to be paid back etc etc etc before making a decision on such an important issue
But for the hardcore on both sides of the debate, being better off is not a major issue.
Ducati, How will the opportunities within the UK not still be open to you personally? What opportunities that are open to the UK as it stands now will be closed to an independent Scotland?
Who knows? but it isn't what I signed up for. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I don't believe there are significant numbers (who are interested) that haven't made up their minds already. I just have a very good feeling that I am better off with the Union.
Just wondering if the pro-independence voters are more certain then a delay to Autumn 2014 will lead to campaign fatigue/impatience and turn voters off thus being better for unionists. I know a vote in the 700th anniversary of bannockburn would be better for independence but a 2 year campaign is a high risk strategy for the SNP et al.
Just wondering if the pro-independence voters are more certain then a delay to Autumn 2014 will lead to campaign fatigue/impatience and turn voters off thus being better for unionists. I know a vote in the 700th anniversary of bannockburn would be better for independence but a 2 year campaign is a high risk strategy for the SNP et al.
I guess they figure that after another 2 years of the ConDems the outcome will almost certainly be a Yes.
Squidge- with respect, you are wrong. You say this is not about England or even Britain.
But it is - and it's about Wales and Ulster too.
The other components of the UK may have to stand on one side and wait while the Scottish people decide what they wish to do, but make no mistake - we live in these isles too and it is very much about us.
To break up a stable polity of over 300 years standing and achievement is no light matter but to tell the rest of us that it is not about us seems a trifle ... insular?
My point is that Scotland's problems are not unique to Scotland - in which you concur.
The problems are those besetting the UK and your dream of something better and fairer could equally apply to Britain.
I also do not wholly blame the politics for bringing the situation about. There's an awful impetus to global capitalism that says that a Chinese worker can build ships for a wage that a Clydeside worker would not get out of bed for- which is why ship-building died on the Clyde. I do think that Thatcher did a great crime in gutting our manufacturing industries instead of reforming them as the Germans did. But Germany had an advantage in that they started from scratch in 1946.
The Nationalist dream is aspirational, vivid and attractive. I for one do not doubt that Scotland can make it on her own.
But as a Brit my dream would be that the UK could solve these problems and my dream is older than Scotland. Watching Michael Wood last night he quoted the opening lines of Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English. He described Britain as a whole geographical entity, going on to describe how it was divided into areas and peoples speaking 5 languages.
'Britain, an island in the Atlantic, formerly called Albion, lies to the north-west, facing, though at a considerable distance, the coasts of Germany, France, and Spain, which form the greatest part of Europe. It extends 800 miles in length towards the north, and is 200 miles in breadth, except where several promontories extend further in breadth, by which its compass is made to be 4,875 miles. To the south lies Belgic Gaul. To its nearest shore there is an easy passage from the city of Rutubi Portus, by the English now corrupted into Reptacaestir. The distance from here across the sea to Gessoriacum, the nearest shore in the territory of the Morini, is fifty miles, or as some writers say, 450 furlongs. On the other side of the island, where it opens upon the boundless ocean, it has the islands called Orcades. Britain is rich in grain and trees, and is well adapted for feeding cattle and beasts of burden...'
We have come a long way since the division of Britain into small kingdoms and done big things. A sneaking part of me thinks that to break up the UK is not going forward but backward. And that one day the oil will run out.
I'll let you in on a little secret thought in my mind too, and in the minds of quite a few. Being honest, I'm a tad resentful about the prospect of being abandoned now that times are hard.
It's a bit like the rich folks building themselves a nice estate with security gates.
So aye - Scotland may go it alone.
Yet by the oldest definitions we all live in Britain, only 800 miles long.
Should we not, on this small island, no bigger than Cuba, be able to tackle our problems as whole?
I believe I have mentioned this before, but the fundamental problem is that the rest of the UK can be overruled by England, If all the MPs in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland wanted to do something all the MPs in England could out vote them. Exacerbated by the fact that the country is steadily becoming more centralised - I'm pretty sure they'll rename the entire South of England London at some point - Combine that with the fact that Scotland has always had a different political agenda to the rest of the UK. You say we're united by we're not, the country divisions, the class divisions have always been there and Scotland is quite frankly tired of it.
It doesn't helped that Scotland is constantly treated as parochial, full of savages and subsidy junkies that need to be told what's good for them. Even now we've only getting slightly more concessions and consideration as a band aid. As I've said I'm pretty sure if the Yes campaign fails we'll go right back to being ignored, exploited and insulted or even worse.
Scotland can no longer be the left wing of the UK, the UK or whatever it will become has to redefine itself from now on.
Just wondering if the pro-independence voters are more certain then a delay to Autumn 2014 will lead to campaign fatigue/impatience and turn voters off thus being better for unionists. I know a vote in the 700th anniversary of bannockburn would be better for independence but a 2 year campaign is a high risk strategy for the SNP et al.
I'm annoyed with this, every bit of literature and every statement made before, during and after the election has said they were going to hold the election in the second half of the parliament. Even David Cameron has said it's no longer an issue, it doesn't matter when it's held so why must everyone constantly go on about it.
Dundee UK
26-May-12, 17:07
I try to avoid voting in polls, the problem is most of them are self selecting and very rarely accurate. I'm pretty sure I'll vote Yes, but we'll see. I fully understand why they want to take a couple of years to present the arguments though, it's the only reasonable thing to do and it forces Westminster to pretend they care about Scotland and grant the odd concession they hope to later use to their own advantage. I'm pretty sure if the No campaign wins, Scotland will be forgotten about again or worse.It'll be interesting to see where the No campaign spends its marketing and advertising money; Will they give projects and commissions to Scottish companies and that sort of thing.Given the fact that the No2AV campaign was so dodgy and full of dirty tricks and lies and that the Electoral Commission is a biased and partisan. I'm preparing for more of the same from the No side.God help us! This is the usual Scottish 'Small Dog' mentality, first of all you say that you are pretty certain you will vote yes but you are going to wait until you hear the arguments which are yet to be presented, if they have not provided any policies yet how can you be so certain that you will vote yes? Then you bang on about Scotland being the downtrodden country which receives 'concessions' from Westminster every now and again before being forgotten and pushed back into their corner until another issue arises. Tell me one, yes just one advantage an average person living in let's say Bristol has or enjoys over a fellow British citizen who lives in let's say Aberdeen or Swansea or Belfast? Have guys like you actually thought this through? did you actually take note of the rag-tag bunch who were on the stage with Salmond yesterday?...... Brian Cox?......Alan Cumming?.........is that the best they can muster?........a couple of B listers that don't even live in Scotland!...........Come on, we are bigger than this!.........United we stand, Divided we all lose
God help us! This is the usual Scottish 'Small Dog' mentality, first of all you say that you are pretty certain you will vote yes but you are going to wait until you hear the arguments which are yet to be presented, if they have not provided any policies yet how can you be so certain that you will vote yes? Then you bang on about Scotland being the downtrodden country which receives 'concessions' from Westminster every now and again before being forgotten and pushed back into their corner until another issue arises. Tell me one, yes just one advantage an average person living in let's say Bristol has or enjoys over a fellow British citizen who lives in let's say Aberdeen or Swansea or Belfast? Have guys like you actually thought this through? did you actually take note of the rag-tag bunch who were on the stage with Salmond yesterday?...... Brian Cox?......Alan Cumming?.........is that the best they can muster?........a couple of B listers that don't even live in Scotland!...........Come on, we are bigger than this!.........United we stand, Divided we all lose
Please go astroturf some where else.
Dundee UK
26-May-12, 17:20
Please go astroturf some where else.No objective response then?
Yoda the flump
26-May-12, 17:52
And as long as we keep the GBP we will be ruled from London, and if we go for the euro we will be ruled from Berlin.
Sort that Eck!
God help us! This is the usual Scottish 'Small Dog' mentality, first of all you say that you are pretty certain you will vote yes but you are going to wait until you hear the arguments which are yet to be presented, if they have not provided any policies yet how can you be so certain that you will vote yes? Then you bang on about Scotland being the downtrodden country which receives 'concessions' from Westminster every now and again before being forgotten and pushed back into their corner until another issue arises. Tell me one, yes just one advantage an average person living in let's say Bristol has or enjoys over a fellow British citizen who lives in let's say Aberdeen or Swansea or Belfast? Have guys like you actually thought this through? did you actually take note of the rag-tag bunch who were on the stage with Salmond yesterday?...... Brian Cox?......Alan Cumming?.........is that the best they can muster?........a couple of B listers that don't even live in Scotland!...........Come on, we are bigger than this!.........United we stand, Divided we all lose
The advantage that someone living in Bristol has over someone living in Aberdeen is that they have a government that reflects the votes of the people of the country they live in. In fact Bristol itself actually has a conservative MP and a Lib dem MP too.
piratelassie
27-May-12, 00:45
And as long as we keep the GBP we will be ruled from London, and if we go for the euro we will be ruled from Berlin.
Sort that Eck!
We will at least control our own purse strings
Dundee UK
27-May-12, 08:36
The advantage that someone living in Bristol has over someone living in Aberdeen is that they have a government that reflects the votes of the people of the country they live in. In fact Bristol itself actually has a conservative MP and a Lib dem MP too. And that makes a difference to the housing they live in? The taxes they pay? The education they receive? The health care they enjoy? the basic rights and laws they live under? the transport systems they us? the holiday periods they are entitled to? The defence which protects them? the prices they pay for purchases?............. open your eyes mate!
Actually it does, they have to pay for prescriptions in Bristol, we dont in Scotland, they have to pay for personal care for the elderly in Bristol, we dont in Scotland. A student in Bristol has to university fees, a student in Scotland does not have to pay university fees, in fact a student in Bristol could have to pay as much as £9000 where Scottish students dont have to. They have had a rise in Council tax for the last ten years although I think it was frozen last year - we havent here in Scotland, Their education is different because Scottish and English education systems are different, the laws and rights they live under are different because the Scottish Legal sytems are different. Now several of these policies have been implemented by the devolved Scottish Government... if Scotland can do these things with none of its own borrowing capability and no ability to raise taxes by its own volition then maybe, just maybe it can chage things much more radically if Scotland is truly indepedent. Maybe it cant - fortunately we have two years to find out what they offer and hear the details.
My eyes are open DundeeUK - All I am saying is that there is an opportunity for the YES campaign to show us that there is an alternative, an opportunity for a YES vote to be a catalyst for social change in Scotland. We are lucky already - we live here so the YES campaign has to show us that we can develop a better Scotland and therefore a better society than the UK government is trying to do - or not. If the campaign can offer that why would anyone choose the status quo which has the problems that Ducati already described so eloquently and which the UK government seems to have no desire to change.
Yoda the flump
27-May-12, 09:56
We will at least control our own purse strings
As I am sure the Greeks will agree with.
Whoever controls the currency will ultimately control the country
Dundee UK
27-May-12, 10:06
Actually it does, they have to pay for prescriptions in Bristol, we dont in Scotland, they have to pay for personal care for the elderly in Bristol, we dont in Scotland. A student in Bristol has to university fees, a student in Scotland does not have to pay university fees, in fact a student in Bristol could have to pay as much as £9000 where Scottish students dont have to. They have had a rise in Council tax for the last ten years although I think it was frozen last year - we havent here in Scotland, Their education is different because Scottish and English education systems are different, the laws and rights they live under are different because the Scottish Legal sytems are different. Now several of these policies have been implemented by the devolved Scottish Government... if Scotland can do these things with none of its own borrowing capability and no ability to raise taxes by its own volition then maybe, just maybe it can chage things much more radically if Scotland is truly indepedent. Maybe it cant - fortunately we have two years to find out what they offer and hear the details. My eyes are open DundeeUK - All I am saying is that there is an opportunity for the YES campaign to show us that there is an alternative, an opportunity for a YES vote to be a catalyst for social change in Scotland. We are lucky already - we live here so the YES campaign has to show us that we can develop a better Scotland and therefore a better society than the UK government is trying to do - or not. If the campaign can offer that why would anyone choose the status quo which has the problems that Ducati already described so eloquently and which the UK government seems to have no desire to change. me...... me..........me!
me...... me..........me!
What about you....you......you?
(Methinks you....you ......you...could be a Troll...and not a very good one at that)!!!
C3..................[disgust][disgust]
No you are wrong Dundee - us, us, us. We in Scotland have a chance to change things for the country we live in if that is what the people of this country want. Not me, not you but us. All of us. WE have the chance to choose. If we choose YES then Scotland will hopefully look at changing the society we live in all of us. If we vote NO then we will continue to try to change the society within the UK.
This is about US. Scotland is a clear and unambiguous country in its own right.... or do you think that Scotland is just North Britain? Scotland has its own society and its own priorities. We in Scotland have the right to decide whether we are independent or not. Whichever way you decide to vote - whether thats nationalist or unionist are you not voting for whats you beleive is best for SCOTLAND as a whole, for the SOCIETY you live in? for what you beleive is best for SCOTLAND'S people, all of them?
The me, me, me comment is just wrong.
The me, me, me comment is just wrong.
Sadly Squidge, that is how A Salmond comes across to many who disagree with your thinking.
The YES campaign will have to work on moving the focus away from A Salmond over the next two years because this referendum is about more than A Salmond - it is about Scotland. A Salmond will not necessarily lead Scotland into independence because there will be an election which will select the government that will do that. There is nothing to say that will be A Salmond although i cant really see Johan Lamont being the flag bearer.
Sadly Squidge, that is how A Salmond comes across to many who disagree with your thinking.
It's such a shame Golach that your hatred of one Man is causing you not to think straight about the future of our great country.
I find that really sad for our future generations whose fate could be determined by your hatred.
C3...............:roll::roll:
It's such a shame Golach that your hatred of one Man is causing you not to think straight about the future of our great country. I find that really sad for our future generations whose fate could be determined by your hatred.
C3...............
I do not hate anyone, that includes you C3, I dislike and do not trust Eck, and a few in his party, that is no hatred. Thats my right in a democracy.
Donald Dewar brought Devolution to Scotland, and I think he was a Labour politician, not Eck.
equusdriving
27-May-12, 19:42
It's such a shame Golach that your hatred of one Man is causing you not to think straight about the future of our great country.
I find that really sad for our future generations whose fate could be determined by your hatred.
C3...............:roll::roll:
Could Exactly the same not be said about your hatred for all other politicians?
Dundee UK
27-May-12, 20:19
What about you....you......you?(Methinks you....you ......you...could be a Troll...and not a very good one at that)!!!C3..................[disgust][disgust] I can assure you that I am no troll and take downright offense at your petty comment!
I can assure you that I am no troll and take downright offense at your petty comment!
Oh, you mean the bit about you not being a very good one? Never mind, I am sure you will get over it and move on with your life!
C3...............:roll::roll:
People love the Scots....we are always welcomed with open arms. I mean....what's not to like about us?
Dundee UK
28-May-12, 16:34
People love the Scots....we are always welcomed with open arms. I mean....what's not to like about us?There we go again..... yap yap..........the wee dog barking again........ 'everyone likes us'...........for heavens sake!!!!!
Dundee UK
28-May-12, 16:42
Oh, you mean the bit about you not being a very good one? Never mind, I am sure you will get over it and move on with your life!C3...............:roll::roll:Considering the enormous amount of posts you have made........ do you ever say anything that's worth listening to?.......god, you must lead a really shallow existence!........ I say independence for Caithness or wherever the hell your croft is, fence it off and let the rest of our Queens citizens go forward to the modern world
I dont really understand the wee dog thing DundeeUK. are you saying that Scotland as a country is like an annoying wee dog barking at the heels of the British Bulldog? Or is it just your way of dismissing the comments you dont care for
weezer 316
28-May-12, 17:56
I have asked repeatedly for an argument from the yes lot over why i sould vite yes. we have a common culture, language and history with the rest of the UK and it has been nothing but incredibly successful. we also have shared risk and security with the rest of the UK. Now you have to come up with something that triumphs over that and the best answer between you that you have come up with is that the tories arent popular in Scotland.
They even stopped bleatin on about the oil, that's how thin the arguments are on the ground for independence.
Combine that with the ludicrously contradictory position taken by the nationalists on some things, like opposing defence cuts within scotland, then admitting they would close 2 of the air bases upon independence!!! Then you have the madness of what curreny to use, which I am looking very much forward to seeing what they say as Alex seems to think you can be indepdent and have your fiscal policy set in a foreign capital.........its utterly bonkers
And that before we even hit the several billion a year hole in his budget!
Weezer!!!! Where have YOU been? I have asked repeatedly for an argument from the NO lot over why i should vote no. The best answer they can come up with is that its worked for the last 300 years. Seems to me there is a long way to go on BOTH sides. Thank goodness we have two years to examine the issues.
I have asked repeatedly for an argument from the NO lot over why i should vote no.
I would like a decent answer to why I should not vote NO and follow your tartan wearing, flag waving lot, Squidge [disgust]
Dundee UK
28-May-12, 18:47
I dont really understand the wee dog thing DundeeUK. are you saying that Scotland as a country is like an annoying wee dog barking at the heels of the British Bulldog? Or is it just your way of dismissing the comments you dont care forIt's a reference to the constant display of incessant inferiority complex displayed by some Scots..... everybody likes us??.....who says for instance a Spanish person would 'like' a Scot anymore than he or she would 'like' an Italian or a Turk or any one else in the world?........ what would you think of any individual who would go around saying 'everybody likes me' ...... and be honest!..............this is the mentality we are suffering presently by the kilted flag waving mob banging on about becoming the next Latvia
I would like a decent answer to why I should not vote NO and follow your tartan wearing, flag waving lot, Squidge [disgust]
Because we will always be the tail and never the dog Golach!! I am fed up of Westminster having us on a lead, this is our chance to make it on our own. Our one and only chance to make a great country for our children and their children. We have always been a proud and brave nation, where is your pride and bravery?
C3.............;)
I watched the debate on BBC Scotland last night. There is nothing of substance on either side.
This poll bears out that most have made up their minds already and the official polls show about a 30/70 in favour of remaining in the UK, so I see the whole exercise as a waste of time and a distraction from the business of digging the UK out of the financial hole we are in. Those who wish for a better future for our children and future generations, better hope the coalition get it right because there is no other game in town.
equusdriving
28-May-12, 19:17
Because we will always be the tail and never the dog Golach!! I am fed up of Westminster having us on a lead, this is our chance to make it on our own. Our one and only chance to make a great country for our children and their children. We have always been a proud and brave nation, where is your pride and bravery?
C3.............;)
I have always believed that Scotland is a great country regardless of whether its independent or part of the union and you know what they say about pride........... it often comes before a fall!
Dundee UK
28-May-12, 19:27
Because we will always be the tail and never the dog Golach!! I am fed up of Westminster having us on a lead, this is our chance to make it on our own. Our one and only chance to make a great country for our children and their children. We have always been a proud and brave nation, where is your pride and bravery?C3.............;) You been away watching Braveheart again then?
There we go again..... yap yap..........the wee dog barking again........ 'everyone likes us'...........for heavens sake!!!!! Woof! Woof!
Dundee UK, Ever heard of irony?
Seriously though, everybody hates us. Their pure jelus 'n' nat know? Cos wur brainy n we inventud lotsa stuff okay?
You been away watching Braveheart again then?
Not only a Troll but a Joker and dog ventriloquist as well, my my, didn't the boy do well !!!
C3.............:roll::roll:
Not only a Troll but a Joker and dog ventriloquist as well, my my, didn't the boy do well !!!
C3.............:roll::roll:What makes you think I'm a boy?
Corrie 3? Can't say I've seen that episode. Going back a bit that one!
What makes you think I'm a boy?
Who mentioned you were a boy? Not me!!!!
C3.............:eek::eek::eek:
Dundee UK
28-May-12, 20:26
Who mentioned you were a boy? Not me!!!!C3.............:eek::eek::eek: You two crackers are getting all mixed up over a few emails, and you want independence?......ha ha ha........ may the lord be with you!
You two crackers are getting all mixed up over a few emails, and you want independence?......ha ha ha........ may the lord be with you!I believe it's "May the FORCE be with you" Obiwan!:cool:
Dundee UK
28-May-12, 20:33
I believe it's "May the FORCE be with you" Obiwan!:cool:F.O.S........I wonder what that stands for?...........let me guess.........is it.......full of ?
We have always been a proud and brave nation, where is your pride and bravery?C3.............
LMAO, are you for real C3? Pride and bravery? What has that got do with anything, your begining to sound like Mel Gibson now. Who is writting your script?
I would like a decent answer to why I should not vote NO and follow your tartan wearing, flag waving lot, Squidge [disgust] You try to parcel me as a nationalist if you like Golach. Im not. Im a socialist. I have not decided about the referendum yet. My questioning is about trying to get a coherent view of both sides and my post to illustrate that neither side have yet to offer anything concrete. And as for tartan wearing and flag waving... Whatever is wrong with that? Im sure both sides enjoy these things.
LMAO, are you for real C3? Pride and bravery? What has that got do with anything, your begining to sound like Mel Gibson now. Who is writting your script?
You need to be brave to vote to leave the security of the UK Golach......And you need to be proud of your country to make it work. It's a bit like leaving home when you have got married, remember that day Golach??
C3........;)
You need to be brave to vote to leave the security of the UK Golach......And you need to be proud of your country to make it work. It's a bit like leaving home when you have got married, remember that day Golach??
C3........
I left home aged 16 and travelled the World long before I got married, leaving home and getting married have nothing to to do with me feeling proud.
Can you see now why David Cameron is NOT making noises about the date of the Independence referendum? Just see what the quality of debate is at this stage. Imagine two and a half years of this going round and round in accusatory, self-deluding circles, with points which were scored last year being displayed yet again like polished turds. Imagine the inevitable pundits crawling over the entrails of each detail, with umbrage given and taken over every tiny perceived slight from one side to the other. Imagine leaders of each faction standing on top of their parochial and limiting dunghills, crowing their triumphalist empty messages of power and glory to an uncaring and short-sighted electorate whose only probable interest is personal short term gain.
Yes, two and a half years to rehearse and rehearse and repeat and repeat these inanities. Can you see a point in the future when, bored out of our brains, we turn on those who suggested this madness in the first place?
And who will pay the bill? Who will have to go without to underwrite this great folly? Who except the winning politicians on the date of decision will benefit? And, by that time, who will care for anything save the fact that this exercise in congenital playground taunting is at last over?
Can you see now why David Cameron is NOT making noises about the date of the Independence referendum? Just see what the quality of debate is at this stage. Imagine two and a half years of this going round and round in accusatory, self-deluding circles, with points which were scored last year being displayed yet again like polished turds. Imagine the inevitable pundits crawling over the entrails of each detail, with umbrage given and taken over every tiny perceived slight from one side to the other. Imagine leaders of each faction standing on top of their parochial and limiting dunghills, crowing their triumphalist empty messages of power and glory to an uncaring and short-sighted electorate whose only probable interest is personal short term gain.
Yes, two and a half years to rehearse and rehearse and repeat and repeat these inanities. Can you see a point in the future when, bored out of our brains, we turn on those who suggested this madness in the first place?
And who will pay the bill? Who will have to go without to underwrite this great folly? Who except the winning politicians on the date of decision will benefit? And, by that time, who will care for anything save the fact that this exercise in congenital playground taunting is at last over?
This is why I usually try to avoid these posts. The quality of discourse in a forum is not indicative of all the discourse or even the average.
Also I really hate when people come up with the cost argument, the cost of a referendum is negligible compared to the usual government spending. They tried that one before with No2AV (http://i.imgur.com/zKmR7.jpg) and it turned out to be a pack of lies.
F.O.S........I wonder what that stands for?...........let me guess.........is it.......full of ? Wrong! Keep guessing though you're getting close![lol]
This is why I usually try to avoid these posts. The quality of discourse in a forum is not indicative of all the discourse or even the average.
Also I really hate when people come up with the cost argument, the cost of a referendum is negligible compared to the usual government spending. They tried that one before with No2AV (http://i.imgur.com/zKmR7.jpg) and it turned out to be a pack of lies.
I think there is lots of things people may not think about when it comes to independence. The one thing that I can think of would add cost to every one living in Scotland would be goods items etc. I had to send item few months ago now to Ireland the one thing I notice was funny no post code why because it was in South of Ireland not UK I had to pay air mail. So just think every one that orders item from the south what the cost would be.
John Little
30-May-12, 20:12
A most intelligent article.
http://www.johnkay.com/2011/05/31/scotland-would-gain-few-benefits-from-going-it-alone-that-it-cannot-already-get-as-part-of-the-united-kingdom
A most intelligent article.
http://www.johnkay.com/2011/05/31/scotland-would-gain-few-benefits-from-going-it-alone-that-it-cannot-already-get-as-part-of-the-united-kingdom
I agree with a lot of this. What it doesn't address is the "I'm Scots and I don't want any English basards running my life" mindset.
secrets in symmetry
30-May-12, 21:24
A most intelligent article.
http://www.johnkay.com/2011/05/31/scotland-would-gain-few-benefits-from-going-it-alone-that-it-cannot-already-get-as-part-of-the-united-kingdomYes. :cool:
I admire John Kay for his straight to the point no-nonsense approach to economic (and social) issues.
I agree with a lot of this. What it doesn't address is the "I'm Scots and I don't want any English basards running my life" mindset.
Its a good article right enough but it doesnt address the mind set problem. How do you address that anyway and what is you have to address?
I'm still suspicious of nationalism but Im sure theres a good side to it and I like Alex Salmond. :)
I agree with a lot of this. What it doesn't address is the "I'm Scots and I don't want any English basards running my life" mindset.
Where do you see this mindset?
equusdriving
30-May-12, 23:08
Where do you see this mindset?
how about corrie3 for a start :(
how about corrie3 for a start :(
I don't like being Governed by anyone in Westminster, whether they are English or Scottish as in Brown or Blair. So please go away and come back when you have your accusations correct!!
C3...............;)
equusdriving
31-May-12, 10:11
I don't like being Governed by anyone in Westminster, whether they are English or Scottish as in Brown or Blair. So please go away and come back when you have your accusations correct!!
C3...............;)
last time I checked my map Westminster was in England! and the parties are English, mind you at least you have tried to answer a post for a change, instead of moving on to a new one like you normally do, but maybe that's because you actually thought you had a valid point this time:lol:
last time I checked my map Westminster was in England! and the parties are English,
Yes, you are correct on both counts!! And I don't like being Governed by them,ok? Next question?
In fact, I have one for you.....You don't seem to be answering anyone's post but mine, are you on a witchhunt? If you are then carry on because you will not stop me posting on this Forum!!
C3...........;)
Where do you see this mindset?
Oh come on!!
Oh come on!!
Don't look at me Duke.....if the Leader of the SNP were English I would have no problem. It's the UK Govt I have a problem with!!
C3...............:roll:
Don't look at me Duke.....if the Leader of the SNP were English I would have no problem. It's the UK Govt I have a problem with!!
C3...............:roll:
I wasn't looking at anybody, but if tha cap fits... I was reffering to conversations I hear every day.
John Little
31-May-12, 15:18
I am working my way through Professor Sir Donald MacKay's book PDF right now. It may well be that others may like a read.
http://www.johnkay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scotlands-Economic-Future.pdf
(http://www.johnkay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scotlands-Economic-Future.pdf)
I am working my way through Professor Sir Donald MacKay's book PDF right now. It may well be that others may like a read.
http://www.johnkay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scotlands-Economic-Future.pdf
Just skimmed it & the final part of the summary stands out to me....
If the Scottish Parliament is responsible
for framing the question(s) then they must be clear as to what terms like
devolution, Home Rule and independence mean and the terms on which
these will be negotiated. If the subsequent vote is decisive then, whatever
it is, it must be put in place on the terms indicated. So all views must be
freely expressed, all options clearly explained and the electorate must know
that whatever alternative they vote for will be negotiated and settled in the
manner this has been put before them. The people are sovereign. So, if there
is a case for Home Rule, then the question has to be put clearly before the
people and they will expect their answer to be binding on all the parliaments
involved. As the Americans say, “go figure”!
Something I fear will never happen...
All we are going to get is bickering over future policy of an independent SNP government even though there is no guarantee that the SNP will be in power post independence.
Lets keep the debate to the constitutional matters of how things are to be divied up (both assets & debts), the relationship, politically, economically & socially, between Scotland & England & whether or not an Independent Scotland is a viable option.
I myself don't like the way we are currently being ruled by a Conservitave government in Westminster & do see Independence as a way of ending that now & preventing it from happening again in the future. It's the cost of that that I want to know, not whether or not we will still have Trident on the Clyde.
There should be no YES/NO camps, just an unbiased debate on the possible outcomes & the electorate left to decide if it is a price worth paying for freedom from Westminster rule.
Or on other words... Leave discussion of post independence policy to after we get independence, if it happens
John Little
31-May-12, 16:04
Some of the stuff that I have read earlier on is very illuminating on the state of the Scottish and UK economies. At the moment, as a result of reading John Kay's stuff, I incline to the view that Scots would get very little if anything from actual independence, which makes the economic argument rather an irrelevance.
Another of the contributors gives the opinion that all the levers and controls for the Scottish government to transform Scotland are already in place but they choose not to use them. In other words, instead of tackling structural weaknesses in Scotland's economy they channel the funds elsewhere, exchanging long term investment for short term populist policies.
MacKay's overall view appears to be that full Home Rule within a federal UK would go a long way towards addressing a lack of national self-confidence, which he sees as a real economic problem, yet retaining the strengths of a Union- and within a written constitution.
Interesting times we live in!
I'm going to put it on my Kindle so I can read it in comfort!
MacKay's overall view appears to be that full Home Rule within a federal UK would go a long way towards addressing a lack of national self-confidence, which he sees as a real economic problem, yet retaining the strengths of a Union- and within a written constitution.
So... Under this federal system, one point of particular interest to me at the moment is who would have control of the welfare system?
&... If Scotland did have control, overall, considering Scotland is traditionally more left leaning (would it stay that way) than England would it be fairer & less punitive?
John Little
31-May-12, 16:52
So... Under this federal system, one point of particular interest to me at the moment is who would have control of the welfare system?
&... If Scotland did have control, overall, considering Scotland is traditionally more left leaning (would it stay that way) than England would it be fairer & less punitive?
The way I read it, it would have to be full Federalism - and that means that Scotland would have control. If the US model were followed then the constitution would have an inbuilt default - that all powers not specifically given to the UK parliament would devolve automatically to the 'state' government.
As to whether it would be fairer or not I cannot say. That would depend on the complexion of the Scottish Government.
equusdriving
31-May-12, 18:19
Yes, you are correct on both counts!! And I don't like being Governed by them,ok? Next question?
In fact, I have one for you.....You don't seem to be answering anyone's post but mine, are you on a witchhunt? If you are then carry on because you will not stop me posting on this Forum!!
C3...........;)
So my earlier post was spot on then? and no you are not the only one I answer, but you are my favourite one by a country mile so my intention is definitely not to stop you posting :lol:
and no you are not the only one I answer, but you are my favourite one by a country mile so my intention is definitely not to stop you posting :lol:
So, you are just plain sick then? I would get some professional help if I were you !!
C3...........:eek:
I wasn't looking at anybody, but if tha cap fits... I was reffering to conversations I hear every day.
Where and what
equusdriving
31-May-12, 19:08
So, you are just plain sick then? I would get some professional help if I were you !!
C3...........:eek:
what because I enjoy showing you up for what you really are?
what because I enjoy showing you up for what you really are? I think it's more like you showing yourself to having a sick, twisted mind!
I think I might have to take a ride out to Groats and tell your Mummy what a naughty boy you are being at the moment, I hope she puts you across her knee!!
equusdriving
31-May-12, 20:06
I think it's more like you showing yourself to having a sick, twisted mind!
I think I might have to take a ride out to Groats and tell your Mummy what a naughty boy you are being at the moment, I hope she puts you across her knee!!
ahh because I stand up against narrow minded draconian racist bigots I am sick......OK :lol: Im sure "Mummy" would make you most welcome and be very interested to hear your tales, as long as you don't let your respectable veil drop :lol:
Where and what
Talk to any real Nationalist (who isn't a politician )
Oh I'm not complaining. It is the only valid argument in favour of independence I have heard. At least it is honest.
Why do you think so many would like to leave the EU? Same thing. :D
secrets in symmetry
01-Jun-12, 00:40
The way I read it, it would have to be full Federalism - and that means that Scotland would have control. If the US model were followed then the constitution would have an inbuilt default - that all powers not specifically given to the UK parliament would devolve automatically to the 'state' government.
As to whether it would be fairer or not I cannot say. That would depend on the complexion of the Scottish Government.I think (full) Federalism would be good for the UK, and probably the best solution all round. Most nationalists don't know what federalism is, and they can't spel it anyway. :cool:
secrets in symmetry
01-Jun-12, 01:03
I am working my way through Professor Sir Donald MacKay's book PDF right now. It may well be that others may like a read.
http://www.johnkay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scotlands-Economic-Future.pdf
(http://www.johnkay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scotlands-Economic-Future.pdf)
You might be interested to know that Reform Scotland (publishers of that book) are run by former Tory politicians/spin-doctors. Despite that, they are an interesting group. They are right wing in that they favour small government, but they are perhaps as liberal as they are libertarian. They have an unholy alliance with the Tartan Tory tendency of the SNP.
I know some of them personally.
John Little
01-Jun-12, 07:21
I did not know that and thank you. I do not favour small government per se, but a one nation Conservative has ideas worth considering. Their articles have the flavour of Command Reports and seem well informed factually. Their proposal is classic Liberalism though.
Talk to any real Nationalist (who isn't a politician )
Oh I'm not complaining. It is the only valid argument in favour of independence I have heard. At least it is honest.
Why do you think so many would like to leave the EU? Same thing. :D
thats not true Ducati - Nationalism is not Anti English. Those nationalists ( who arent politicians) are not racist to a man or a woman and its just nonsense to suggest that is the case. They may be anti westminster and it is anti uk but Anti english? Any nationalist? REALLY? It might seem like nit piocking but its actually a massively important point. The suggestion that Nationalism is Anti English implies that it is a racist or bigoted campaign and that is not true. That doesnt mean that there is never going to be a nationalist supporter who is racist or bigoted but there are plenty of unionist supporters who are that too. The Nationalist movement is not a racist movement.
thats not true Ducati - Nationalism is not Anti English. Those nationalists ( who arent politicians) are not racist to a man or a woman and its just nonsense to suggest that is the case. They may be anti westminster and it is anti uk but Anti english? Any nationalist? REALLY? It might seem like nit piocking but its actually a massively important point. The suggestion that Nationalism is Anti English implies that it is a racist or bigoted campaign and that is not true. That doesnt mean that there is never going to be a nationalist supporter who is racist or bigoted but there are plenty of unionist supporters who are that too. The Nationalist movement is not a racist movement.
I'm not suggesting it is a racist movement. But if you think I am wrong you aren't talking to the right Nationalists. Try a pub in Greenock or Paisley or Glasgow or.......; And, I'm afraid you are being a bit err... innocent.
http://i.imgur.com/AdOwN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AdOwN.jpg
I believe I said before that your can find extreme and crazy people in any group or association.
I have friends living and working in the South East/London area who are constantly subjected to insults from people, colleagues even, for being Scottish, it's not the good natured stuff either - at least according to them - that being said I don't base my opinion of all English people on what they've told me. Two of the best people I've known happened to be English.
The thing with Scottish Nationalism also is that's its inclusive. It's not based on ethnicity or race but on culture and where you live.
secrets in symmetry
01-Jun-12, 13:31
Eck and Nicky's brand of nationalism has largely replaced anti-English nationalism with populist "we are the people, and we're so far up our own backsides that we can't even see the rest of the world" nationalism. Not only do I think secession would plunge Scotland into the sea of second rate small nations, but I do not want to be part of it.
On a more personal level, I would be stupid to vote for secession because small countries like Scotland can't fund the sort of world class science that needs expensive equipment. Many top scientists would leave (and are already talking about leaving) Scotland. The research (and teaching) teams left behind would be staffed largely by people that can't get jobs elsewhere, and the country's science base would dwindle. The UK is world class in scientific research, only the USA beats us. In my field, the top dogs are the USA, the UK, Germany, Japan, and perhaps Italy. Small countries can't compete with us, the only small country (by population) that competes in our field is Australia, with Austria and Switzerland piggybacking off some of the others. Going from top dog to piggybacking isn't much fun.
The UK (sort of) competes with the USA in absolute terms, not just per head of population. I recently heard Anne Glover, the (former?) Chief Scientific Adviser for Scotland, claim that we in Scotland punch way above our weight in UK scientific research.
If all you secessionists want to throw away Scotland's rich scientific success and heritage, then go ahead. Given the position of your heads, most of you won't notice. :cool:
secrets in symmetry
01-Jun-12, 13:40
I did not know that and thank you. I do not favour small government per se, but a one nation Conservative has ideas worth considering. Their articles have the flavour of Command Reports and seem well informed factually. Their proposal is classic Liberalism though.I'm glad I recognised classic Liberalism in Reform Scotland's output.
They get a lot of media coverage, in the press and on the radio/TV - possibly because their ideas for the future are so different from they way things are currently.
They claim to be non-party, and they do have senior (ex-)politicians from the other parties, but two of their three "leaders" mentioned on their website are (or were) career Tories.
I'm not suggesting it is a racist movement. But if you think I am wrong you aren't talking to the right Nationalists. Try a pub in Greenock or Paisley or Glasgow or.......; And, I'm afraid you are being a bit err... innocent.
Lol lol lol
You reckon? Im posting this whilst sitting in a pub in East Kilbride right now. Im meeting with a group of women nationalists on Monday and Im spending the weekend with a whole pile of people both Unionists and nationalists and undecided in the south of edinburgh this weekend. i cant find any organised groups to speak to on the NO campaign though.
Do you think I never venture out of my front room Ducati? Do you think that I do nothing only get my opinions from the tv and the papers? do you think that I have a narrow cirle of friends? That I dont travel to research my views and ideas? Well Ducati - you think that if you like. I would appreciate a little less patronising though. I dont do you the disservice of assuming that your universe is only as wide as the view from your window in Caithness so dont assume mine is only as wide as my window here.
Thanks
Lol lol lol
Im spending the weekend with a whole pile of people both Unionists and nationalists and undecided in the south of edinburgh this weekend. i cant find any organised groups to speak to on the NO campaign though .Thanks
Tell me where Squidge!! I thought Edinburgh Council did not permit loonie fringe protests inside the city. [disgust]
secrets in symmetry
01-Jun-12, 15:39
Tell me where Squidge!! I thought Edinburgh Council did not permit loonie fringe protests inside the city. [disgust]They could be here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Edinburgh_Hospital).
Tell me where Squidge!! I thought Edinburgh Council did not permit loonie fringe protests inside the city. [disgust]There is no need to be rude Golach. Its a party...
There is no need to be rude Golach. Its a party...
Never intended to be rude, I thought you were making a political march. Just wanted to attend :(
Lol lol lol
You reckon? Im posting this whilst sitting in a pub in East Kilbride right now. Im meeting with a group of women nationalists on Monday and Im spending the weekend with a whole pile of people both Unionists and nationalists and undecided in the south of edinburgh this weekend. i cant find any organised groups to speak to on the NO campaign though.
Do you think I never venture out of my front room Ducati? Do you think that I do nothing only get my opinions from the tv and the papers? do you think that I have a narrow cirle of friends? That I dont travel to research my views and ideas? Well Ducati - you think that if you like. I would appreciate a little less patronising though. I dont do you the disservice of assuming that your universe is only as wide as the view from your window in Caithness so dont assume mine is only as wide as my window here.
Thanks
Well said Squidge, I think Duke and a few others think we have never ventured further south than Inverness. But I don't blame them, I suppose coming from England they will never understand what Scottish Nationalism is all about. They just think that all Scots hate the English and that is far from the truth!
When I ask my English friends why they chose Scotland to come and live they almost all have the same answers, the peace and quiet, the security, the landscape and surprise, surprise....the people!!!! We are very welcoming to all and sundry but what I cant understand is that most of these people (not all) choose not to breakaway from the very things that made them come here in the first place.
I don't suppose I will ever understand their way of thinking but I think they should not stand in the way of wanting to be a country in our own right and to stand on our own two feet!!
C3....................:confused:confused
Lol lol lol
You reckon? Im posting this whilst sitting in a pub in East Kilbride right now. Im meeting with a group of women nationalists on Monday and Im spending the weekend with a whole pile of people both Unionists and nationalists and undecided in the south of edinburgh this weekend. i cant find any organised groups to speak to on the NO campaign though.
Do you think I never venture out of my front room Ducati? Do you think that I do nothing only get my opinions from the tv and the papers? do you think that I have a narrow cirle of friends? That I dont travel to research my views and ideas? Well Ducati - you think that if you like. I would appreciate a little less patronising though. I dont do you the disservice of assuming that your universe is only as wide as the view from your window in Caithness so dont assume mine is only as wide as my window here.
Thanks
Alright don't get your fundaments in a twist. I am only reporting what I experience nothing more. I can't make it go away because yours is different. But I don't believe you haven't come accross the predominent attitude, you just give people the benefit of the doubt. :)
Well said Squidge, I think Duke and a few others think we have never ventured further south than Inverness. But I don't blame them, I suppose coming from England they will never understand what Scottish Nationalism is all about. They just think that all Scots hate the English and that is far from the truth!
When I ask my English friends why they chose Scotland to come and live they almost all have the same answers, the peace and quiet, the security, the landscape and surprise, surprise....the people!!!! We are very welcoming to all and sundry but what I cant understand is that most of these people (not all) choose not to breakaway from the very things that made them come here in the first place.
I don't suppose I will ever understand their way of thinking but I think they should not stand in the way of wanting to be a country in our own right and to stand on our own two feet!!
C3....................:confused:confused
No one is standing in your way. But why aren't you standing in the way of continuing the union. All you have to do is turn around the 70/30 split in oppinion and away you go.
And there are only about 300,000 English in Scotland so don't you dare try to blame 'em when the Scots vote no!
One thing is certain, Scottish politics pre-1707 was dominated by paranoia of political influence from south of the border and it will be again after a yes vote in the referendum.
Alright don't get your fundaments in a twist. I am only reporting what I experience nothing more. I can't make it go away because yours is different. But I don't believe you haven't come accross the predominent attitude, you just give people the benefit of the doubt. :)Of course I have come accross people with anti english feelings. They were few and far between and actually in situations outside the worlds of politics and reenactment and from right across the political and social spectrum. Scottish Nationalism is an inclusive political campaign. And bigotry and racism is NOT confined to nationalists. As for giving people the benefit of the doubt.... Maybe im just nicer than you lol
Of course I have come accross people with anti english feelings. They were few and far between and actually in situations outside the worlds of politics and reenactment and from right across the political and social spectrum. Scottish Nationalism is an inclusive political campaign. And bigotry and racism is NOT confined to nationalists. As for giving people the benefit of the doubt.... Maybe im just nicer than you lol
I'm nice, I just see it as it is. I don't know why we are arguing, you keep agreeing with me.:lol:
secrets in symmetry
02-Jun-12, 13:09
Ducati, you won't understand their form of inclusiveness until you stick your head up your backside and start to ignore the world outside, whereupon everyone north of the border will seem beautifiul - irrespective of their beliefs, their origins, and whether they have also "assumed the position". Try it - it seems to "do the business" for the little Scotlanders!
I don't know about you, but I want nothing to do with their fantasy country.
Ducati, you won't understand their form of inclusiveness until you stick your head up your backside and start to ignore the world outside, whereupon everyone north of the border will seem beautifiul - irrespective of their beliefs, their origins, and whether they have also "assumed the position". Try it - it seems to "do the business" for the little Scotlanders!
I don't know about you, but I want nothing to do with their fantasy country.
Now that is a bit unkind, I understand the yearning to be free I really do. And who wouldn't with a government like this; what with secret policemen turning up in the middle of the night and disapearing your granny and the bread queues every morning. But I think the gamble on the future of Scotland is a bit of a high price to pay to satisfy the fantasies of a minority of malcontents.
secrets in symmetry
02-Jun-12, 15:51
Now that is a bit unkind, I understand the yearning to be free I really do. And who wouldn't with a government like this; what with secret policemen turning up in the middle of the night and disapearing your granny and the bread queues every morning. But I think the gamble on the future of Scotland is a bit of a high price to pay to satisfy the fantasies of a minority of malcontents.Free from what? People with more sense and understanding than they have? People who've achieved more than they have?
Most of them would be more at home in Disney's Fantasyland than in the real world.
I dont have a yearning to be free - i AM free. SiS you know nothing about me really, im just a figment of what you imagine I am. All i want is a better society and i want to contribute to achieving that. I see very little in the future that will offer an opportunity to effect a change .... At the moment that opportunity LOOKS like it may come with the referendum but two years down the line it MAY be staying within the union that gives the best hope of change. Who Knows. I certainly dont. Im busy exploring both sides and challenging assumptions and discussing ideas. You and Ducati and Golach may want to pick me up and hang me on the Nationalist peg, that simply gives you the excuse to dismiss what I say but thats your perogative. You have no idea what I have achieved in my life. I am envious of no one. All i hope is that when the date for the referendum arrives i will have done MY best to explore the issues and make MY vote based on what I think the best option is for Scotland . Not because of some feeling of needing to be free but because Scotland is the country where my children are growing up and I want a good place for them to do that. Thats all.
I don't know about you, but I want nothing to do with their fantasy country.
Good, let us know when you are leaving and I will throw a party and come and help you pack!!!
C3..................[lol][lol]
All i hope is that when the date for the referendum arrives i will have done MY best to explore the issues and make MY vote based on what I think the best option is for Scotland . Not because of some feeling of needing to be free but because Scotland is the country where my children are growing up and I want a good place for them to do that. Thats all.
Squidge thats all I want too, bring on the referendum now. I know already how I am going to vote, why hang on for another 2 years.
Squidge thats all I want, bring on the referendum now. I know already how I am going to vote, why hang on for another 2 years.
Me too but I would add, if you want to make a better Scotland, what is stopping anyone? Why wait another two years?
Me too but I would add, if you want to make a better Scotland, what is stopping anyone? Why wait another two years?
Because unlike you, Golach and myself, not everyone's mind is made up yet!
It's very selfish to want the vote now just because you have made your mind's up.
C3..............:roll:
equusdriving
03-Jun-12, 10:44
It's very selfish to want the vote now just because you have made your mind's up.
C3..............:roll:
what a load of rubbish, if it looked like a referendum now would lead to a win for independence (which clearly isn't the case) are you really saying that you (SNP) would still be holding out for 2 years to try and sway voters? and the anniversary of Bannockburn !
But I think its a good thing to give people time to hear all the answers to important matters and pros and cons, so they can make an informed decision either way, and not let their heart possibly rule their head eh CORRIE3
what a load of rubbish, if it looked like a referendum now would lead to a win for independence (which clearly isn't the case) are you really saying that you (SNP) would still be holding out for 2 years to try and sway voters? and the anniversary of Bannockburn !
But I think its a good thing to give people time to hear all the answers to important matters and pros and cons, so they can make an informed decision either way, and not let their heart possibly rule their head eh CORRIE3
It's not like that same thought process has been used when deciding when to hold a general election... oh wait it has always been used.
The SNP has always said before, during and after the recent Scottish Parliament that it will hold the referendum in the second half of the parliament - unlike the Conservatives who said they would hold a referendum on EU membership and haven't.
It's stupid and dogmatic to hold one now anyway as neither side has had a chance to campaign or put forward their case.
The date of the referendum is one of those Unionist strawman arguments that annoys me. Even David Cameron has said the date doesn't matter, why can't people just let it go?
equusdriving
03-Jun-12, 15:14
It's not like that same thought process has been used when deciding when to hold a general election... oh wait it has always been used.
The SNP has always said before, during and after the recent Scottish Parliament that it will hold the referendum in the second half of the parliament - unlike the Conservatives who said they would hold a referendum on EU membership and haven't.
It's stupid and dogmatic to hold one now anyway as neither side has had a chance to campaign or put forward their case.
The date of the referendum is one of those Unionist strawman arguments that annoys me. Even David Cameron has said the date doesn't matter, why can't people just let it go?
But I think its a good thing to give people time to hear all the answers to important matters and pros and cons, so they can make an informed decision either way, and not let their heart possibly rule their head eh CORRIE3 and REQUERY :lol:
2 years because this is a MASSIVE question. Loads of discussion, loads of clarity needed and time to consider the change and make an informed decision. It gives both sides a chance to campaign and allows for all the arguments to be heard. Both sides keep going on about having the referendum now because you think you will win thats fine but that is not what you are getting. So shut up talking about it and start thinking about the issues. If you have made your mind up great. Those of us who havent will be delighted to hear the arguments. There is more to it than "National claptrap" and "unionist Drivel" - phrases the like of which are uttered on here every day. Grow up, get over yourselves, accept that the referendum is happening in 2014 and give up on the insults and start the conversation.
equusdriving
03-Jun-12, 16:21
2 years because this is a MASSIVE question. Loads of discussion, loads of clarity needed and time to consider the change and make an informed decision. It gives both sides a chance to campaign and allows for all the arguments to be heard. Both sides keep going on about having the referendum now because you think you will win thats fine but that is not what you are getting. So shut up talking about it and start thinking about the issues. If you have made your mind up great. Those of us who havent will be delighted to hear the arguments. There is more to it than "National claptrap" and "unionist Drivel" - phrases the like of which are uttered on here every day. Grow up, get over yourselves, accept that the referendum is happening in 2014 and give up on the insults and start the conversation.
Well said :) This is a far too important decision to let hearts rule heads
But I think its a good thing to give people time to hear all the answers to important matters and pros and cons, so they can make an informed decision either way, and not let their heart possibly rule their head eh CORRIE3 and REQUERY :lol:
Who did what with who now? that makes no sense based on your previous thoughts and line of reasoning. It's almost as if you changed your opinion or dropped your point when it looked unwinable.
equusdriving
03-Jun-12, 19:01
Who did what with who now? that makes no sense based on your previous thoughts and line of reasoning. It's almost as if you changed your opinion or dropped your point when it looked unwinable.
I have always said I need more details before deciding either way. I was pointing out that the delay in the referendum is because the SNP think it will benefit them not for the benefit of the voters as Corrie3 had implied! and that certain people want independence regardless of whether it is for the greater good or not So what point have I dropped?
equusdriving
03-Jun-12, 19:05
[QUOTE=RecQuery;955187. It's almost as if you changed your opinion or dropped your point when it looked unwinable.[/QUOTE]
Would that be like you did with the Hampden thread?
I appreciate that the date is set, I'm just frustrated that it will be an excuse to procrastinate and waste opportunities in the meantime.
I appreciate that the date is set, I'm just frustrated that it will be an excuse to procrastinate and waste opportunities in the meantime.Only if you let it be. Im glad that it will give me us chance to debate, discuss and engage with people who may otherwise not vote at all.
Only if you let it be. Im glad that it will give me us chance to debate, discuss and engage with people who may otherwise not vote at all.
Squidge I agree with ducati, lets have the neverendum NOW,and forget Eck and his procrastinations, Vote Now!!!!
Lol lol lol.... Golach you are like King Canute trying to stop the tide. Its going to happen in 2014 and thats that. Now if you can harness some of your dislike for 'Eck' and some of your persistence, and focus it on issues which really matter because they havent been decided yet , then the NO campaign might just start to say something positive and worth listening to. Stop messing about and start to campaign and you might help people like me to make our minds up!
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.