View Full Version : The English language
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 15:53
Being a newbie to the Forum I read through quite a few threads to see what's happening, read people's opinions and check what's for sale etc. Unfortunately, I am really annoyed with those that cannot differentiate between THEIR, THERE AND THEY'RE. I ask myself why and the only answer I can come up with is unfortunately poor education (poor teachers?). What do you think?
Tugmistress
27-Apr-12, 15:58
I have to agree somewhat, my youngest daughter is approaching 21 and when checking her homework for spelling i picked her up on it more than once, the retort was that 'if the teachers understand what you mean it doesn't matter about spelling' i feel sure that these kids will have a hard time in the future. It was not just up here either, friends down in englandshire also had the same problem with their kids and teachers and spelling.
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 16:06
My son is the same - as long as teacher understands then so what! Oh boy - the English language is going to deteriorate and we will all be writing SMS - C U L8er etc
Opund up an kan off wurmes hear... bee preperd four sum abyuos bak... lul
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 16:14
Got most of what you wrote - didn't mean to open up a can of worms - just a general discussion. What is abyuos bak?
What is abyuos bak?
Abuse back... lol
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 16:28
Oh...abuse back ... laugh out loud.
It is though a pity that some people think spelling is not that important.
Bobinovich
27-Apr-12, 16:30
I frequently explain this to my kids - it doesn't matter what their teacher says, I want to see them using the correct language wherever possible, & the same goes for words such as 'jamp' ugh! Whether right or wrong, most of the posters on my ignore list are those whos posts I find difficult to read - either due to their continued incorrect use of language or lack of punctuation.
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 16:33
YAY! Someone agrees with me...maybe I have opened up a can of worms Alrock!
It's no good blaming it all on the Teachers, you are responsible for your child's upbringing and in upbringing I include English, Math's, Geography and all the things they need to know about daily life. If you don't bother then they won't either!!!
Some of the writing on here is unreadable and then they wonder why they can't get a job!!
Never mind, the Country is going downhill in all aspects of life so the English language may as well go downhill as well, I just give up on this country!!
C3...................:eek::roll::roll:
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 17:39
I am not blaming it all on the teacher. I read to my son, I help him with his homework, I correct his errors, I do everything possible to help him pave his future...but if a teacher (who is meant to be held in high regard and know more English than I do) accepts that a spelling or grammatical error is OK well...should I rest my case?
Ruler across the knuckles for every spelling mistake in primary school for me....
Not advocating it (still need spellchecker at times), just stating a fact.
Tilly Teckel
27-Apr-12, 17:57
Ruler across the knuckles for every spelling mistake in primary school for me....
We didn't get a ruler at my primary school but I remember lining up to leave the cloakroom to go home at the end of the school day and the teacher giving each child a word to spell. If you got it right you got to leave, if you got it wrong you went to the back of the queue and had to try again with a new word. These days I'm guessing there would be some kids who'd never get to go home!
I agree that there's a combined problem of parents not correcting their children's mistakes and teachers not being strict enough about the importance of spelling, grammar, punctuation etc. Maybe younger parents today weren't taught these things in school themselves so aren't able to correct their children? Or maybe they simply don't see what all the fuss is about? Personally, as a proofreader, I see some shocking examples of the misuse of the English language made by people who really don't seem to care...
Being a newbie to the Forum I read through quite a few threads to see what's happening, read people's opinions and check what's for sale etc. Unfortunately, I am really annoyed with those that cannot differentiate between THEIR, THERE AND THEY'RE. I ask myself why and the only answer I can come up with is unfortunately poor education (poor teachers?). What do you think?
They're, their, there, never mind! :Razz
Kevin Milkins
27-Apr-12, 18:43
I have problems with there and their, sorry for the inconvenience.
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 18:48
They're, their, there, never mind! :Razz
Funny Rheghead! I wanted to start a debate and I did it!
John Little
27-Apr-12, 19:09
It is not fair to blame people for their spelling, grammar or use of language - and it is not fair to blame the teachers either.
30 years ago there was a bunch of know-alls decided that the formal teaching of language was not necessary; people could learn all they needed through 'osmosis'.
So they made a set of recommendations to the government who wanted to bring in a 'National Curriculum'.
They laid down what should be taught and the formal teaching of Language more or less ground to a halt. These days English teaching in schools would more accurately be described as 'appreciation of literature' - only it's hardly that either.
Personally I feel that they should be shot for crimes against humanity, but we live with the results, so it just ain't right to blame people for what they were not taught, and for how their teachers were not allowed to teach them.
Since Scotland now has its own government they are now free to put this right.
Will they?
billmoseley
27-Apr-12, 19:45
as long as you understand what is meant does it really matter
as long as you understand what is meant does it really matter
But sometimes you can't, sometimes you need a second opinion & half hour discussion to decipher some things...
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 21:19
Now what about YOUR and YOU'RE???
Being a newbie to the Forum I read through quite a few threads to see what's happening, read people's opinions and check what's for sale etc. Unfortunately, I am really annoyed with those that cannot differentiate between THEIR, THERE AND THEY'RE. I ask myself why and the only answer I can come up with is unfortunately poor education (poor teachers?). What do you think?
Being a newbie, I would have thought that you may have done a little more research. That may have led you to the conclusion that not everyone contributing to these forums is as perfect as you.
If it annoys you so much the answer is simple, don't read it.
I think you're a troll.
I've broken my reply down into simple paragraphs. What do you think?
Ballymore
27-Apr-12, 21:58
I am so sorry you think I am a troll - trolls live in the Scandinavian forest and have cheeky habits and like to trick people. I just wanted a simple discussion and I am definitely not perfect. I found all the input here interesting and some of it quite funny. I just feel it is unfortunate that the English language is becoming lazy and that is from a person whose first language is not English! You, Moira, will be happy to know that this will be my last comment on this thread.
I can’t understand the reasoning behind the idea that, “if the teachers understand what you mean it doesn't matter about spelling,” or “as long as teacher understands then so what!” These youngsters surely have to understand that if they want to make their way in the world they have to be able to present themselves in the most positive way. At some point when they apply for a job they will have to complete a CV and/or write a letter of application. This is the first contact their prospective employer will have with them and if they are slapdash with their presentation they’re just not going to get an interview.
People will make mistakes, we're not all perfect but I would have thought that if people want to make themselves understood it would be in their interest to spell and write properly.
John Little
27-Apr-12, 22:59
"Professor Brian Cox chaired the National English Curriculum Working Group in 1988. Cox said it was ‘dangerous to tell a five-year-old boy or girl that his or her mother uses language incorrectly’. (Cox on Cox, 1991, p32) ‘Non-standard English’ was just as good as standard, said Cox."
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10254/
Mrs Kodiak tells me that I am Perfect.
Every day she says, "You are a Perfect Nuisance" :Razz
"Professor Brian Cox chaired the National English Curriculum Working Group in 1988. Cox said it was ‘dangerous to tell a five-year-old boy or girl that his or her mother uses language incorrectly’. (Cox on Cox, 1991, p32) ‘Non-standard English’ was just as good as standard, said Cox."
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10254/
Nothing wrong with 'Non-standard English', as long as it is spelt correctly & is correct grammatically.
Language is not a chore, a trap, a puzzle, an insurmountable chasm or fiendish conundrum: it is neither beast nor devil, but a transport of delight, a lambent treasure house, a construction kit of dreams, whereby the great passions might be stirred in words of love and hate, heroism and cowardice, of comedy and tragedy, of life and death. It cleaves us one to the other in community, in humanity, in greatness, yet can be used by Everyman to fit him well as part of the human family. It is the enduring music of our lives, and is immortalised in words preserved through the centuries, and provides us all with our greatest legacy.
So I think, really, it's a question of good manners to spell and construct it as accurately as possible, not treat it as a shabby afterthought.
I too get riled by bad spelling, grammatical mistakes and the use of words in the wrong context.
I am dismayed that standards have dropped so low and frequently chastise The BBC for their misuse of words.
The most annoying to me are the words awful..it does not mean bad,horrid,terrible it means full of awe, and bubye, the word is goodbye.
I am quite happy with dialect words however.
I too get riled by bad spelling, grammatical mistakes and the use of words in the wrong context.
I am dismayed that standards have dropped so low and frequently chastise The BBC for their misuse of words.
The most annoying to me are the words awful..it does not mean bad,horrid,terrible it means full of awe, and bubye, the word is goodbye.
I am quite happy with dialect words however.
WOW!!!!! What an awful post.... :cool:
John Little
28-Apr-12, 08:04
Language is not a chore, a trap, a puzzle, an insurmountable chasm or fiendish conundrum: it is neither beast nor devil, but a transport of delight, a lambent treasure house, a construction kit of dreams, whereby the great passions might be stirred in words of love and hate, heroism and cowardice, of comedy and tragedy, of life and death. It cleaves us one to the other in community, in humanity, in greatness, yet can be used by Everyman to fit him well as part of the human family. It is the enduring music of our lives, and is immortalised in words preserved through the centuries, and provides us all with our greatest legacy.
So I think, really, it's a question of good manners to spell and construct it as accurately as possible, not treat it as a shabby afterthought.
On the other hand, this one is lyric prose and a joy to read.
There really is nothing worser than bad English.
John Little
28-Apr-12, 10:52
Bad Scots can be pretty vicious too-
but they do win wars when put together with Bad English, Bad Welsh and Bad Irish....
Do Bad Scots speak bad scots?
No such thing as Bad Scots, Scots are like whiskies......some are better than others
John Little
28-Apr-12, 11:31
Now we really need a thread on Bad Scots, bad scots and bad Scotch!
I find discussions like these particularly funny as English grammar is a construct artificially forced upon the language to make it more 'civilised'. To make matters worse it's the grammar of Latin/Romance languages kludged upon what is essentially a Germanic language.
Language is not a static thing, I wish these Sharpie-carrying, prissy, letters-to-the-editor sort of people would read a linguistics book and understand. Avoid Noam Chomsky he does more Proto-Indo-European/first language stuff but John McWhorter is worth a read. He even does a couple of video/audio lecture series for The Teaching Company if you don't want to read.
I love language and endeavour to use the correct words for what I want to say as I dislike being misunderstood.
My fear with the lack of good grammar and spelling is that serious mistakes can be made. Sentences badly constructed can give the wrong impression of what you want to say and can lead to dangerous interpretation in many places of work or in friendship.
Correct spelling leaves no doubt in the mind of the reader as to what the writer means and the correct use of grammar will get the point across to most people. We all have had to go over a sentence/phrase from time to time to get the gist of what is really being said but without hurting the feelings of the person saying it.
I know there are people who have great difficulty in constructing a sentence but at least nowadays there is help out there when needed. Many people have been wrongly labelled as stupid; starting in primary school and then a stigma follows them all through their young lives. However when you get to know them they are often highly skilled in what they do for a living and are blessed with great insight and understanding and can get their point across as well as the next person.
Let's hope that the education buffs will devise a teaching method which enhances a person's skills, prepares them for succeeding in a still sadly lacking system and learn from their pupils as they learn from their teachers.
We all have something to give to and learn from others in many shapes and forms. We must strive to get it right!
few years back when i was with my last partner and her kids, i thought i'd have a nose at one of the kids' homework to see what they do these days in school. I rewrote part of some of his homework and told him to copy it out as if it was his own, note where the errors are and how i corrected them. Off he went to school and came home late that day looking a wee bit glum. Teacher gave him detention for cheating! said he should do his own schoolwork and not copy off others. I gave him a note regarding this and got a response from his teacher in the way of a photocopy of the work, properly corrected, hyphenated, punctuated etc,etc, and an invite to do detention the following week due to "terrible grammar"......speechless wasn't the word :eek:
[QUOTE=RecQuery;947540] Language is not a static thing
So true RecQuery, you will never see words such as "it's" in the language Shakespeare used; he would have used "it is". Other similar deviations are "would've, couldn't, won't" instead of "would have, could not and will not".
Another example is fashion, with older people liking the fashion of their youth era be it in the forties, fifties or (lord help us) the seventies!
With each generation there are changes to suit the modern talk of the time and all the changes in our way of life. Some changes are good; others not so.
It is called evolution...just take a look in your photograph albums! :)
I am so sorry you think I am a troll - trolls live in the Scandinavian forest and have cheeky habits and like to trick people. I just wanted a simple discussion and I am definitely not perfect. I found all the input here interesting and some of it quite funny. I just feel it is unfortunate that the English language is becoming lazy and that is from a person whose first language is not English! You, Moira, will be happy to know that this will be my last comment on this thread.
Oh dear, I owe you an apology. My (very) dry Caithness humour was lost in the translation.
Threads of this nature usually attract posts containing all of the comments which I made and a few more besides. I'm a staunch supporter of the correct use of the English language. I've even been ridiculed for my long-winded Texts from my mobile phone because I don't use Text-Speak.
So sorry to have upset you. Please do put you're thoughts out their again to assure me youve' not taken the humprage with me. ;)
On the other hand, this one is lyric prose and a joy to read.
I totally agree. :)
Ballymore
28-Apr-12, 23:13
Thanks Moira . . . but I can assure you I wasn't "trolling". Apology accepted, no humbrage taken. There have been some interesting comments on this thread though, hasn't there? Maybe we should get the teachers to ask the kids to spell a word before they go home - I would love to witness that the first time round!
P.S. I can't use predictive text or text abbreviations either!
I have a wee boy coming 2 in a few weeks and i correct him when he says a word. He's so delighted when he can say the word like me and takes great joy in saying it where possible. The latest one is cat. He's only mastered the t sound and loves calling all animals cat ha ha!! If I had not corrected him he may still be calling our cat Ca. He has however just learnt today what a dog is and has stopped insulting the greyhound next door by calling her a cat.
I do not swear but the other day came up with a new word after another driver cut me of at a junction. I caught myself about to swear as had to swerve to avoid the lunatic. Out came Codface! ha ha!!! My partner almost died in the passenger seat from laughing.
Thanks Moira . . . but I can assure you I wasn't "trolling". Apology accepted, no humbrage taken. There have been some interesting comments on this thread though, hasn't there? Maybe we should get the teachers to ask the kids to spell a word before they go home - I would love to witness that the first time round!
P.S. I can't use predictive text or text abbreviations either!
I can't get on with predictive text either. Just frustrates me! Often i don't know what the text abbrevations mean and i'm only 23.
I can't get on with predictive text either. Just frustrates me! Often i don't know what the text abbrevations mean and i'm only 23.
It took me 2 years to work out how to turn the quap..quog..quet...oops! predictive text off on my phone. No mention of it in the 400 page manual at all.
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