PDA

View Full Version : Turmoil In Local Labour Ranks



frank ward
31-Oct-06, 13:04
I would urge all tenants to Reject Housing stock Transfer.

Go to http://www.hast2006.org.uk/

for more information on worthless rent 'guarantees', higher rents, fat cat salaries and more.

cuddlepop
31-Oct-06, 14:23
we have a divided house here so perhapse you can enlighten me.
Do you think the Scottish Executive will legislate to make it compulsory for the housing stock to transfer regardless of how we vote.?
In principal I wont be black mailed but in reality I'm told it will happen anyway.:confused

frank ward
31-Oct-06, 14:33
I doubt if this government will make transfer compulsory, there are legal impediments to this route.

Nothing is written in stone. To date 110 areas have transferred, but 100 have voted no, and most of Scotland's councils are not even opting for a ballot.
The privatisers try to make out that transfer is the only choicee, but they lie.
Midlothian council is building 1000 new homes at some of the lowest rents in the UK. The government recognises that transfer is not succeeding and has been making concilliatory noises about funding council houses again, so don't be blackmailed in to thinking there's no hope.

I was never particularly interested in housing until I was asked to do some research on behalf of HAST, and since then I have become furious at transfer scandal. It sums up all that is rotten with New Labour and the corporate takeover of Britain.

kitty
31-Oct-06, 17:45
I had a woman from the council visit me and tell me what a good idea it was to vote for the transfer, you'd think that they should be looking after the best interests of the tennants. But after having a quick look at that site it makes you realise what is actually going on. [mad]

martin macdonald
31-Oct-06, 17:57
i will be saying no to the transfer. i know of rent increases of up to double. one place had no increase for five years then they doubled the rents[evil] a con pure and simple....

frank ward
01-Nov-06, 09:38
On this weeks The Politics Show (Sunday 29 October) the tenant’s chair of
the Glasgow Housing Association admitted that at the time tenants went to
ballot over stock transfer they had been kept in the dark over the costs of
second stage transfer.
Even more astonishingly it was admitted that at the
time of transfer neither the council nor the new private landlord had even
bothered to work out the costs that would be involved in second stage
transfer.
It is only now over 3 years after transfer that reports have been
prepared. The amount of money calculated to be needed is over half a billion pounds (yes £507,300,000). Given the enormous sums involved would it not have been sensible to calculate this before transfer?

So what is the response from the GHA to this incompetence? The Chief
executive Michael Lennon was awarded a 26% pay rise to over £200,000! Even Malcolm Chisholm could not bring himself to utter a word of support for
this.

Another sorry episode shows that pre-transfer promises are not worth the
paper they are written on.

Woolie
01-Nov-06, 12:20
When we lived down south we transfered yes at first it was good by the time we left 5 yrs ago our rent was nearly £100 per wk so be careful

frank ward
01-Nov-06, 17:55
I note that the Ballot Paper does not state the correct name of the proposed new landlord.
Throughout this campaign the company AND the council have refrained from admitting that the landlord is a private company, HHA Ltd.

In previous transfers the full legal title of the company has been printed on the ballot papers.

But Highland Housing Association Limited has not been printed on the ballot papers.

How sly can you get?



www.hast2006.org.uk

frank ward
01-Nov-06, 18:08
I had a woman from the council visit me and tell me what a good idea it was to vote for the transfer, you'd think that they should be looking after the best interests of the tennants. But after having a quick look at that site it makes you realise what is actually going on. [mad]

Kitty, the woman employee was acting illegally. We were assured that staff would only be advising tenants of the forthcoming ballot, but of course we heard that some [most likely senior] staff were advising a yes vote.

You should make a formal complaint, the council have details of those staff who covered each house. She was probably also spinning lies to dozens of other tenants.

Any tenants who said they were unsure or against transfer had their name and address noted by staff and we believe many were later targeted a second or even third time.
This is also true of those who posted questionnaires back - the council asked for name and address even though this was irrelevant.

Altogether a sinister and malevolent exercise, an intense marketing campaign all paid for by the taxpayer.

kitty
02-Nov-06, 17:00
Kitty, the woman employee was acting illegally. We were assured that staff would only be advising tenants of the forthcoming ballot, but of course we heard that some [most likely senior] staff were advising a yes vote.

You should make a formal complaint, the council have details of those staff who covered each house. She was probably also spinning lies to dozens of other tenants.

Any tenants who said they were unsure or against transfer had their name and address noted by staff and we believe many were later targeted a second or even third time.
This is also true of those who posted questionnaires back - the council asked for name and address even though this was irrelevant.

Altogether a sinister and malevolent exercise, an intense marketing campaign all paid for by the taxpayer.


Thank you for letting me know, i will look into it further now :)

dozy
02-Nov-06, 17:58
Why is there only 1 housing association ..Sorry.. Company on the ballot .Is it that there is only 1 group for like minded people that have come together or was it that they have been hand picked for the job (QUANGO).Has in the past ..
QUESTION:
Why is there not dozens off new small local associations on the ballot ......
Why is it a take all or nothing show ......

Answers please ?????

frank ward
02-Nov-06, 23:18
There is only one buyer because that's the way the government want it. A 'preferred bidder' [ie monopoly buyer] ensures a new monopoly landlord.

The Glasgow transfer was supposed to be quickly followed by second-stage transfer to dozens of smaller, local groups. Needless to say, it hasn't happened and never will happen [unless someone produces £500million]

The same empty promise is being believed [or repeated] by gullible local politicians who dream that Caithness housing will eventually be run by a Caithness housing body.

It just won't happen. It hasn't happened in Glasgow and there are in fact no plans whatsoever for it to happen at any time in the Borders or Dumfries & Galloway.

As the website says, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with housing associations, it's just the appalling post-transfer record of the big companies that has led to a massive backlash against stock transfer.

Gogglebox
03-Nov-06, 10:29
Kitty, the woman employee was acting illegally. We were assured that staff would only be advising tenants of the forthcoming ballot, but of course we heard that some [most likely senior] staff were advising a yes vote.

You should make a formal complaint, the council have details of those staff who covered each house. She was probably also spinning lies to dozens of other tenants.

Any tenants who said they were unsure or against transfer had their name and address noted by staff and we believe many were later targeted a second or even third time.
This is also true of those who posted questionnaires back - the council asked for name and address even though this was irrelevant.

Altogether a sinister and malevolent exercise, an intense marketing campaign all paid for by the taxpayer.



Are we only allowed to hear the side you want us to hear!

All the Council information quite clearly states they want us to vote for it
Why would the propose a motion they didnt support
Why would they put people out who werent in favour of ther proposal

frank ward
03-Nov-06, 11:26
The Highland Housing Association has been delivering brochures featuring a full page endorsement from Margaret Davidson, the chair of the housing committee.
What these endorsements do NOT say is that the lovely Margaret is also being paid £10,000 by Communities Scotland, the agency pushing stock transfer.

Although the councillor now declares this interest when it comes to a council vote [as she is legally required to do] there is no such declaration in the glossy leaflets put out by the company.

Gogglebox
04-Nov-06, 16:47
Here’s a daft example of bureaucracy from our Highland Council….
I have refurbished my kitchen and need to get rid of some old kitchen units. They’re a bit big for a car trip to the skip.
So I phone to find out when the next bulk refuse collection is. Eventually I am routed through to a receptionist. I have to give my postcode, then house number. Fair enough so far.
Then I’m asked, what am I throwing out?
Old kitchen units. Sorry, not acceptable. Eh? Why not?
Yes you can throw out a washing machine, or 3-piece suite, that’s household goods, but not units, they’re part of the house.
So I ask if I smash the units up into bits, is that OK? Yes, that’s acceptable. And if I chop up a good door, will that be taken away? Yes, but not the door.
Then I’m asked for more personal details, which I refuse, what more do they need than my address?
they still won’t tell me the next date of bulk uplift. I must tell them what I’m throwing out.
I say that If I knew the date of uplift I could gather some stuff. I get shirty, I’m asked to hang on, then after a while and consultation with a supervisor, I’m finally told the date - over five weeks away.
All this is apparently because of ‘competitive tendering’ for waste services. Little wonder there‘s so much fly-tipping!


Just curious Pussycat are you a Highland council tenant

Just you seem to be getting a better deal than most of us if you have had your kitchen replaced - -I wouldnt mind that mine are falling apart

And if your not a Highland council tenant why so passionate about something that wont affect your day to day living ??

Gogglebox
06-Nov-06, 00:40
Just curious Pussycat are you a Highland council tenant

Just you seem to be getting a better deal than most of us if you have had your kitchen replaced - -I wouldnt mind that mine are falling apart

And if your not a Highland council tenant why so passionate about something that wont affect your day to day living ??

Here Puss Puss!! Come back

Bill Fernie
06-Nov-06, 01:01
There seems to be always from Hast 2006 and others a persistence in using the word privatisation in connection with the Housing Stock Transfer and now using "Ltd" at the end as if this were true.

It was stated a long time ago that the Highland Housing Association was to become an Industrial and Provident Society that has long been a way of ensuring that organisations use their funds and or profits for the benefit of its members and target group. See http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2005/November/housing-assoc.htm

For an explanation of an Industrial and Provident Society see http://www.fsa.gov.uk/Pages/Doing/small_firms/MSR/Societies/index.shtml

There was some discussion that the new association could be company limited by guarantee but this again is not a Limited Company in the sense of having shareholders who recieve a share of the profits. A company limited by guarantee is usually a charity and this set up is to give some protection not least to the volunteers who agree to become directors. But that is not the preferred route.

Despite the continual use of the word privatisation this is not what the Housing Stock Transfer is.

frank ward
06-Nov-06, 11:31
Can anyone out there explain to me how there is apparently a whopping £1million to be deducted from this year's Housing Revenue Account [ie tenants rent payments]to pay for the 'community ownership programme'??

I thought this stock transfer con was being 'entirely funded' by the Scottish Executive, yet it appears that the tenants themselves are having money taken from the repairs budget in order to fund the privatisation of their own homes!!

I'm not much of an accountant or mathematician so perhaps someone can explain this. Have I missed something here? Is this confined to the current budget or have other years been similarly affected?

[I'm asking on this website because if I ask the council I will be referred to the Freedom Of Information department and get no reply for a month].

frank ward
06-Nov-06, 13:49
We are told that the new company wanting to take over Highland Council housing will be 'not for profit'

In England, Housing Associations have hoarded profits [surpluses] worth more than the entire £3.9 billion national affordable housing programme for 2006/08.

Non of this money is earmarked for repairs, improvements, new housing or indeed anything else. It is estimated that around 1,700 associations could do more to reinvest their assets.

The “non-profit” housing association sector makes a surplus, even after tax, of just under half a billion pounds a year, and has non-earmarked surpluses of over £4 billion.

That’s one heck of a non-profit.

frank ward
06-Nov-06, 14:21
Bill enough of your humbug. Only the most obstinate or naive of pro-transfer hacks are still insisting “its not privatisation”
Even the Scottish Executive says that "housing stock transfer is a major disposal of public assets”

The Council is presenting this new landlord as a cosy group of volunteers working for little or no money. The reality will be very different - this is big business with fat cats running the show.
This business is masquerading as a democratic public body when it is nothing of the sort.

The Highland Housing Association Ltd will be a private company in law and in practice.
It must charge VAT, even if it achieves charitable status. It must register and file annual accounts. Tenants may theoretically own 100% of the company, but the ‘weighted voting’ set-up of an Industrial & Provident Society company ensures that tenants can never have control. Neither can the local council. Neither can the elected government. The chairman can dismiss any board member at any time. Not even a vote at the AGM is binding on the board.

The new company can go bust, merge or be taken over. It can de-register from being a social landlord, it can create subsidiary companies.
The constitution/articles of incorporation of HHA Ltd have still not been made public - even its supporters raise their eyebrows at this.

This New Labour government, as did the Tories before them, are seeking to move low-cost housing from the public sector to the private sector. This is to (a) reduce the Public Sector Borrowing Requirement [PSBR] and (b) increase its VAT intake.

The word ‘Limited’ has been left off the company’s name on the ballot paper, another example of the Council’s cynical attempts to mislead the tenants.
Everybody knows this is daylight robbery of a billion-pound public asset and hopefully Highland tenants will vote No and stop it.

Gogglebox
07-Nov-06, 20:33
Just curious Pussycat are you a Highland council tenant

Just you seem to be getting a better deal than most of us if you have had your kitchen replaced - -I wouldnt mind that mine are falling apart

And if your not a Highland council tenant why so passionate about something that wont affect your day to day living ??


You never did answer Pussycat???

Dare say it wouldnt look so good if you werent a council tenant and you were so passionately anti housing transfer - - especially if you had more political reasons than personal reasons to be anti transfer

I have no problem with you being anti transfer but to be doing so by misrepresenting yourself and the arguement on these boards by politicking is terrible - this is peoples lives you and your alter ego are playing around with.

"Lets be Frank" It would look terrible if somebody heavily aligned with the anti campaign was found to have been creating arguements on these boards to reinforce his own and possibly a political parties position!! - -Would not look good in the press and really would imply that they had no arguement except with themselves!!




In the interests of being even handed can i direct anyone who is in doubt to look at the Audit Scotland report which will highlight the key points that really need to be considered.

As far as i can see they state that although there is work still needs to be done that there has been significants benefits to the tenants that voted for Stock Transfer

Ive taken some of the highlights from the key point - -a lot is relative to the Glasgow Housing Transfer which is slightly different as it is the only one that has a second stage transfer which has not yet been completed - - -There is no second stage transfer in the Highland Stock Transfer proposal

http://www.accounts-commission.gov.uk/publications/pdf/2005/05pf17ags.rtf

The new landlords are delivering higher investment and rent increases within the guaranteed limits and tenants consider service is better

20. From our review of seven completed transfers, we identified planned investment levels of some £3.2 billion over 30 years to improve the quality and condition of homes transferred to new landlords. In most
cases this is significantly more than councils previously spent. For example, the GHA's plans will nearly double investment compared to the council’s in the last seven years before transfer.

21. For at least five years after each transfer, annual rent increases are guaranteed at no more than one per cent in real terms. This is markedly less than the average rate of increase by all councils (average increases of three per cent a year in real terms between 1996 and 2004).

22. Councils are not monitoring improvements in tenant service systematically. However, our survey
of tenant groups suggests improvement. Sixty-four per cent of the tenant groups responding to our survey believed the quality of repairs and maintenance had improved after transfer.

Transfers have promoted greater tenant control, though there is more still to be achieved

24. Every transfer landlord now has tenants making up at least a third of its governing body, with additional places held by other community representatives. Sub-committees of the governing body or delegation of powers to other tenant-led organisations give tenants a further direct role in decision-making.


26. Our work suggests tenant participation has increased after transfer in most cases. Fifty-seven per cent of tenant groups with experience of transfer felt it had brought a big improvement. However, 26 per cent
considered transfer had made no difference in this respect while ten per cent thought it was worse. There
remains scope to spread best practice more effectively, to ensure the greatest degree of tenant control.

Better, clearer measures are needed to assess impact and value for money

29. Competition has not been used for whole housing transfers. In each case transfer plans have been subject to significant scrutiny. While the evaluation reflected the practice at the time, the Executive has now introduced better evaluation rules, learning from the experience of the early transfers.

30. Without assurance from competition and in the absence of targets or outcome measures in some areas it is difficult to be sure that terms for the initial housing transfers provide the best possible value for money. For example, although the GHA's plans provide for its management cost to fall steadily over its first ten years of operations, its forecast average management cost over 30 years will be £834 per house, per year, in real terms. This appears well above other landlords’ costs. But comparisons have to be treated with caution because there is no guarantee that different landlords account for management costs consistently.

31. Communities Scotland, individual councils, the Executive and private funders monitor the performance of new landlords after transfer. The early indications are that transfer is delivering additional investment and other benefits to tenants. But there is currently no national framework to monitor improvements with regard to the wider objectives of the programme.

frank ward
07-Nov-06, 23:23
We are told that the new company wanting to take over Highland Council housing will be 'not for profit'
HHA Ltd says all profits [surpluses] must be spent on housing. This is simply not true. Housing Associations are allowed to 'diversify' into many fields – some have built up huge portfolios of stocks and shares, many others have invested in private companies and speculative developments.
Many have simply not spent their profits at all, by hording them:
In England, Housing Associations have horded profits [surpluses] worth more than the entire £3.9 billion national affordable housing programme for 2006/08.
NONE of this money is earmarked for repairs, improvements, new housing or indeed anything else.

The “non-profit” housing association sector makes a surplus, even after tax, of just under half a billion pounds a year, and has non-earmarked surpluses of over £4 BILLION.
That’s one heck of a non-profit!

Housing Associations are also lobbying the government to have regulations removed, to allow them more 'freedom to invest' in more non-housing areas. They are using their huge pot of cash as a bargaining tool, threatening to withhold from further housing.
These companies justify retaining these huge surpluses by saying 'what's good for the company is good for the tenants.'
Meanwhile big companies are taking over and merging with smaller associations to create ever-larger business empires as the interests of tenants vanish into the distance. Tenants will take all the risks but see none of the rewards.

Bob M
07-Nov-06, 23:33
We are told that the new company wanting to take over Highland Council housing will be 'not for profit'
HHA Ltd says all profits [surpluses] must be spent on housing. This is simply not true. Housing Associations are allowed to 'diversify' into many fields – some have built up huge portfolios of stocks and shares, many others have invested in private companies and speculative developments.
Many have simply not spent their profits at all, by hording them:
In England, Housing Associations have horded profits [surpluses] worth more than the entire £3.9 billion national affordable housing programme for 2006/08.
NONE of this money is earmarked for repairs, improvements, new housing or indeed anything else.

The “non-profit” housing association sector makes a surplus, even after tax, of just under half a billion pounds a year, and has non-earmarked surpluses of over £4 BILLION.
That’s one heck of a non-profit!

Housing Associations are also lobbying the government to have regulations removed, to allow them more 'freedom to invest' in more non-housing areas. They are using their huge pot of cash as a bargaining tool, threatening to withhold from further housing.
These companies justify retaining these huge surpluses by saying 'what's good for the company is good for the tenants.'
Meanwhile big companies are taking over and merging with smaller associations to create ever-larger business empires as the interests of tenants vanish into the distance. Tenants will take all the risks but see none of the rewards.

Where did you get this drivel? as a member of a housing association board of management I can with total certainly brand this as out and out rubbish! scottish Homes are basically the controlling body where funds are concerned and just do not allow this kind of mismanagement!

Gogglebox
08-Nov-06, 01:50
Frank good to hear from you again

Did you answer yet if you are a council tennant or not

Just curious I dont mind which but it interests me from the point of view of why your HAST chairman feels it neccesary for the councillors to live in council houses

I think you are probably a house owner by the time you were recently refurbishing your kitchen but atleast answer the questions we ask under whichever identity you choose not just put the answers to the questions you would like us to ask you

Its how democracy works when you stand on the platform you are standing on - - we get to ask you questions and you should answer them straight, I'll try again though

1) Are you a Highland council tenant?

2) What are the sources for the spurious information and figures you quote - -you wil note i referenced mine to Audit Scotland above, Where do you get yours?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope the Pussycat is not away doing auditions for Celebrity Big Brother!
I think another socialist politician in a pink lycra leotard doing the impression of a cat is disturbing!!! lol!

frank ward
08-Nov-06, 10:59
Bob M, you ask where I get my figures, they are from Inside Housing, the industry's leading magazine. Maybe you should read it sometime.

frank ward
08-Nov-06, 11:13
Bill Fernie is ensuring that any further discussion on HST is confined to this thread and his army of moderators is ensuring it becomes more boring each day.
Gogglebox is a tiresome threadjockey introducing irrelevant items but for the benefit of those who care about the facts I will repeat for the umpteenth time the official source of the statistics quoted on the HAST website:

"http://www.communitiesscotland.gov.uk/stellent/groups/public/documents/webpages/cs_011553.hcsp#TopOfPage

I hope the table below appears legible but if not go to the source. Here you will find

Communities Scotland Regulation & Inspection Scottish Registered Social Landlord Statistics 2004/05
Extract from Table A9
RSL name Average weekly rent Average rental increase
2004-05 2003-04 2002-03
Row
190 Dumfries and Galloway Housing Partnership 41.61 3.1 - -
191 Glasgow Housing Association Ltd, The 52.63 3.3 2.1 2.1
192 Scottish Borders Housing Association Ltd 44.05 5.5 3.6 0
Whole stock transfer from LA 4 3.8 3

National 2004-05 3.8 3.8 3

cs_01115431[1]
source: http://www.communitiesscotland.gov.uk/stellent/groups/public/documents/webpages/cs_011553.hcsp#TopOfPage
Click on A9

This table indicates the following:
Rents in Large Scale Voluntary Transfer RSLs were running higher [4%] than the Scottish Average RSL [3.8%] in 2004/5 - latest available statistics
Scottish Borders [SBHA] had highest increase of 5.5% despite promise of inflation plus 1%. This followed rise of 3.6% and a rent freeze at time of transfer.
This has been denied by SBHA in press release attacking these figures quoted on HAST website: http://www.hast2006.org.uk/rent.htm


SBHA was approached early Sept 2006 to verify their rent figures. SBHA did not respond.

This source is quoted on the website but the pro-transfer lobby keep questioning the figures and asking where thery came from.

golach
08-Nov-06, 11:31
Excuse me, I am a Moderator here and I live in Edinburgh and have no interest in your political ranting, but I take exception when you called me part of Bill Fernies army, I have never met Mr Fernie, but from what I have seen on here, IMO I consider him to be a better politician than you will ever be

frank ward
08-Nov-06, 11:44
golach, you have just made my point.

I rest my case

Gogglebox
08-Nov-06, 11:46
Bill Fernie is ensuring that any further discussion on HST is confined to this thread and his army of moderators is ensuring it becomes more boring each day.
Gogglebox is a tiresome threadjockey introducing irrelevant items but for the benefit of those who care about the facts I will repeat for the umpteenth time the official source of the statistics quoted on the HAST website: .



I notice you still didnt answer any questions asked of you!!!

Insted of looking for names to call us all why not answer some questions

Misrepresentating yourself and creating arguements on these boards as Frank Ward and Pussycat to back up you own insecure and fairly unsubstantiated arguement hardly paints you in the light of an honest community minded politician.

I dare say we will have to listen to your nonsense between now and next May when no doubt you will stand to be elected as an MSP and try and hoodwink us into believeing you are the solution to our ills when really all your mob do is massage your egos with the short period of publicity knowing that you will never get elected so will never have to fulfil any of your hollow promises.

I do hope you are no more succesful this time than last (3.92%) and that Solidarity and SSP are finally wiped from our political landscape and consigned to history as little more than a blip undermined by their own self righteousness, self importance, lies and hypocrisy

dozy
08-Nov-06, 11:51
Where did you get this drivel? as a member of a housing association board of management I can with total certainly brand this as out and out rubbish! scottish Homes are basically the controlling body where funds are concerned and just do not allow this kind of mismanagement!

How many pieces of silver do you get for being a Board Member...

Gogglebox
08-Nov-06, 12:10
How many pieces of silver do you get for being a Board Member...

Whats the relevance of whether the board get paid or not?

Most of these boards get some kind of remuneration even if its expenses or an honorarium

Why would you want a board of well intentioned inexperienced do gooders

The board will have a few million pounds of assets and problems to deal with why would they not get paid.

Do you go to your work and say thanks but no thanks im doing it for the community!!

changilass
08-Nov-06, 13:31
Bill Fernie is ensuring that any further discussion on HST is confined to this thread and his army of moderators is ensuring it becomes more boring each day.


As you have brought this subject up I feel the need to reply:

It was ME, not Bill or any of the other mods who merged the threads. I did it without consulting the other mods and sent you the following pm to explain the reasons.


Hi Frank

A short note to tell you the reasoning behind my merging your posts.

Having read them all I am of the opinion that they are all connected to the same central theme of the possible housing transfer. To allow folks to make up their mind on this issue it is helpful to have all the information in the same place.

Changi

If you disagree with my motives you have the option of either replying to myself or reporting it to admin to see if, following discussions, my actions would be reversed (which has happened in the past).

I certainly don't think you should be blaming Bill or the other mods for something that I have done.

henry20
08-Nov-06, 14:14
I certainly don't think you should be blaming Bill or the other mods for something that I have done.

Well said Changilass. Why is it that when a mod says something, it is automatically seen as a mod/admin opinion rather than the actions/views of the individual.:roll:

I also think it was right that the topics were merged - with or without discussing it. I do not feel that the topic affects me, but I have noticed several threads on the subject and have wondered why the need for so many? Especially as a lot of them seem to have been started by the same person.

I think it is benificial to any orger with any thoughts on the matter to see various opinions from others. Well done for merging them Changilass :D

dozy
09-Nov-06, 12:32
Is it the WORSHIP of money that drives these people to support the transfer .The group pushing the transfer all seem to be getting something from it or are some trying to justify their position by supporting it.Is it all just a CON for monetary gain by a hand picked select few .Well i dont know but it looks that way ..
the questions are :how will benefit from the transfer
:where is the money pushing the transfer coming from.
:are the groups opposing the transfer getting the same
funds
: why is it a TAKE IT or SUFFER offer (thats bullying ain't it )

There must be a breach off regulations somewere....

Bill Fernie
10-Nov-06, 01:27
Now that Frank Ward and Pussycat are apparently outed as one and the same person perhaps a re-read of this thread might also be worthwhile
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=16293

JAWS
10-Nov-06, 03:41
Has anybody come across the other clones, Isaac Blank otherwise known as Ted Grant, Derek Hatton, Peter Taffe, Tony Mulhearn?
You can entertain yourself for hours playing “wait for the back-stabbing” followed by “Assassinate the Leader!”
The most difficult part is when they challenge you to play, “Guess what we calling ourselves today?”

Sometimes it’s difficult to keep track of the constantly changing disguises. The easiest way to spot them, once you have learned the trick, is that they hate anybody having control of anything unless it’s them!

Rubbish, Dozy. The transfer will not make one penny difference to me, unless there some difference which everybody gets.
I have, however, seen the difference in service people have been given in areas where the change has already been made. There certainly doesn't seem to be places where people are pushing to revert back to the old system.

Gogglebox
11-Nov-06, 09:06
Is it the WORSHIP of money that drives these people to support the transfer .....

Maybe its just common sense and a desire to see our houses returned to a satisfactory standard

Gogglebox
11-Nov-06, 09:25
Just to add some gravitas to the HAST arguement and the quality of the people running it
This report below from is taken from the minutes of the Merkinch Community webpage http://www.merkinch.info/htm/newsviews/janfeb2004/janfeb2004.php
This is the calibre of the man who is Chairperson of the HAST campaign -Donnie Kerr

(just unfortunate the previous months meetings dont seem to be available to see exactly what he did)


Defiant member again flouts authority of council chairman

MERKINCH Community Council meeting broke up in disarray on 15th January as members began to walk out over the question of discipline and chairman Ali MacLean was forced to bring the meeting to a close.
At issue was the continuing problem of Mr Donnie Kerr’s refusal to apologise for remarks made to Highland Councillors Peter Corbett and Chrissie Cumming and for breach of Standing Orders regarding the authority of the chairman.

At the December meeting minutes secretary Alec Macleod raised the question of the “outstanding disciplinary matter”. “Unfortunately under our last Community Council a member (Mr Kerr) had to be expelled because he would not desist from abuse,” he said. “We reaffirmed Standing Orders then brought forward a motion of no confidence and it was put to the vote with a crushing result against the person concerned, who came back and questioned the chair’s truthfulness.” At some length and with much drama, Mr Macleod then went on to outline the history of the matter ending by asking chairman Ali Maclean if he stood by the council’s previous ruling.

Councillors were asked for their comments on the matter. These ranged from the conciliatory view of then secretary Anne McCreadie who told Mr Kerr that he was an intelligent person who could be an asset if he didn’t rub people up the wrong way to Councillor Corbett’s remarks that he was a pain who had brought the community council into disrepute and was impossible to work with.
Mr Kerr agreed that he had been expelled but claimed that as this was a new council, following the recent elections, the matter was no longer relevant. “I am surprised so much time is being wasted when this area has so many problems,” he said.
Mr Kerr was then repeatedly pressed for an apology and eventually, and in a dismissive manner, said that he if he had ever done anything to offend anyone in the whole of Inverness he apologised.
“That’s ridiculous,” said Councillor Corbett, who attends as the local Highland Council representative and had previously said the matter was up to Community Council members to decide.

The matter was left to one side as there was pressure to close the meeting. Earlier, office-bearers were elected as follows: Chairman, Ali MacLean; vice-chairman, Alistair Locke; treasurer, Brian Cain. Anne McCreadie agreed to act as secretary until another could be found. Last year she had already intimated her decision to stand down from the post.
Members also agreed that the agenda item Any Other Competent Business should be replaced by Any Other Notified Business with seven days’ notice to allow information on the matter to be gathered.

At the January meeting, however, the matter of Mr Kerr’s recalcitrance was raised once again, when Mr MacLeod pressed for the apology “as minuted” and not the one Mr Kerr had chosen to give in December.
After much discussion, sometimes heated, there was a motion that the authority of the chair be upheld. The three new members on the community council were advised that if they were not familiar with the issues they could abstain. Mr Kerr put up a counter motion that they should get on with the agenda, which proved an appealing argument to some. After the vote was taken it was agreed five to four that an apology must be forthcoming in terms of Standing Order 5.

At this point Mr Kerr said that he had consulted with the Association of Community Councils and that Douglas Murray of that body said the matter of Mr Kerr’s apology was not relevant. He refused to leave the meeting as Mr Murray had advised him not to leave. It was pointed out that this was Merkinch Community Council and not the ACC.
Mr MacLeod accused Mr Kerr of once again defying the authority of the chair, and there was a call for the police to remove Mr Kerr.
He refused to do so and one of the new members started to make personal remarks at which point a number of others rose to their feet and Mr MacLean closed the meeting.

frank ward
11-Nov-06, 10:51
There has been more coverage of the stock transfer debate in the national
press over the last few days.

Firstly if you put this address into your computer you can find an informed
article on where transfer is across Scotland.

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/article.aspx?articleid=1448321

Secondly there is an article in today's (Saturday) Scotsman titled "Walls
tumbling down on house stock transfers?". It starts with "The Scottish
Executive is coming under increasing pressure to reconsider its flagship
housing policy after a series of setbacks called into question the future
transfer of council homes to new social landlords"

frank ward
11-Nov-06, 10:56
The HAST website has been updated, on webpage 'Things you didn't know.'
Here you will see information on:

Staggering sums promised and spent to date on the HST con

Second-stage transfer forgotten

False company claims re VAT

False company claims re previous transfers

£4billion of stashed profits

and more

go to http://www.hast2006.org.uk/things.htm

frank ward
11-Nov-06, 11:00
Jaws says: "The transfer will not make one penny difference to me"

If Jaws is a highland council tax payer and has read the HAST website figures [as provided by the Council itserf] he will see that he will be adversely affected by transfer.

frank ward
13-Nov-06, 15:20
TENANTS: LAST CHANCE TO USE YOUR VOTE

The Solidarity Party has called upon all Highland Council tenants to make sure they use their vote against stock transfer before the deadline expires next week.

It is important that tenants complete their ballot paper and post it off quickly, by Thursday 17th November if possible. Previously, many a housing stock transfer has been approved even though less than half of all eligible tenants voted for it.
At street stalls and on estates, we have detected no enthusiasm for the proposed transfer but we are worried that this apathy will spread to not voting at all.
Only a No vote will prevent tenants slipping into the hands of a new landlord over whom they will have no control. The Council may be far from perfect, but at least tenants can pressure their councillor into doing something for them.
We anticipate that around one third of all tenants may fail to use their vote. We say that if you don’t know, vote No - there will be no way back after transfer.
A resounding No vote will be another nail in the coffin of the government’s useless housing policy, after Edinburgh, Stirling and Renfrew tenants have voted to reject privatisation and remain with their local councils. A No vote will add to the clamour for proper funding, without strings, of our public affordable housing.
The £5million-plus of public money being wasted on creating and selling the new would-be landlord could be providing double glazing for thousands of Highland homes, or hundreds of new kitchens and bathrooms.

Almost every day tenants are discovering things that throw this privatisation into further doubt.
For example, the current housing debt is falling by £7million per year. Without putting a penny on rents the council could re-invest its completed debt premiums and raise an additional £7million or more per year, every year.
This year, it appears instead that a further £1million will be quietly syphoned out of the Highland repairs budget to pay for the ‘community ownership’ programme that is supposed to be financed by the Executive.
A further £14million of reserves for housing are being withheld by the Council to help pay for transfer costs. Spread over the next ten years and added to the existing repairs budget, this would more than exceed the money promised by the new company. If transfer goes ahead, this money will literally be stolen from tenants, along with their homes.

Gogglebox
13-Nov-06, 15:33
Well Frank it will not surprise you to learn that i do not agree with most of the drivel you wrote above but i would agree on one thing

Whatever people do - vote whether its Yes or No

No point moaning about the outcome if you havent voted

Me and my socialist friend above might not agree on anything in this world but atleast we agree you have the power to decide what you want so use it wisely

ps - -I think the "Pussycat "would agree too!!lol

dozy
15-Nov-06, 10:16
For all the supporters of the Transfer " read todays Courier and hang your heads in SHAME ".......

cuddlepop
15-Nov-06, 11:50
Dozy can you give me a link so I can read it on line as we dont get the Courier over here.Thanks.:)

frank ward
15-Nov-06, 12:07
Have you seen today's P&J ?

LEAKED LABOUR PARTY EMAIL MEMOS.

A series of leaked internal Labour Party memos reveal
turmoil within Labours Highland ranks, precipitated by
the impending defeat of the Executives flagship policy
of Housing Stock Transfer.

It would appear that Labour Party members are angered
by the Party's dash for privatisation of housing stock
and the part played by its MSPs and the Minister
Malcolm Chisholm.

A disgruntled Labour Party member has supplied leaked
email memos to HAST, Chairperson Donnie Kerr has
written to Highland Council Chief Executive Arthur
McCourt to protest against a possible misuse of public
funding and resources by the councillors concerned.

These indicate desperate last-minute efforts by
worried Communities
Minister Malcolm Chisholm to galvanise his
disillusioned party members into actively campaigning
for a Yes vote. His appeals would appear to have
fallen on deaf ears as it seems few have responded.

The memos show that the Labour Party councillors and
MSPs appear quite willing to use tax-payer-funded
parliamentary resources to pursue party-political
goals, which is not allowed under the rules.

The parties mentioned in the emails have now admitted
that the emails are indeed genuine.

Unfortunately these revelations will have come too
late for most tenants, as the closing date of the
stock transfer ballot is only a week away and many
tenants have already cast their vote.

Three defeats in a row for the flawed
Scottish Executive transfer policy, in Edinburgh,
Stirling and Renfrewshire have inflicted terminal
damage on this bankrupt policy.

A resounding Highlands NO vote will add another nail
to the coffin of
Housing privatisation and help force the government
into providing funding -
without strings attached - for affordable housing.

[For copies of the leaked memos and the letter to Council CEO Arthur McCourt, send me a PM.]

scotsboy
15-Nov-06, 15:02
And I hear the SSP are riding on the crest of a wave!

DrSzin
15-Nov-06, 15:30
Frank's post gave me the impression that the text was lifted from the P&J, but it didn't read like a proper newspaper article so I went a-googling.

The P&J article is here (http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=149664&command=displayContent&sourceNode=149490&contentPK=15956430&folderPk=85696&pNodeId=149221), and it's a little more objective.

frank ward
15-Nov-06, 16:00
Bill, as chair of your local housing committee and [apparently reluctant] advocate of stock transfer, can you please advise me why £1million [and possibly more] has been taken from the Housing Revenue Account for funding the 'community ownership programme' when the council guidelines state clearly that rental income is 'ring-fenced' to protect it from precisely this kind of looting?
Were you aware or did you approve of this £1million being taken from the tenants repairs budget?

Gogglebox
15-Nov-06, 19:10
For all the supporters of the Transfer " read todays Courier and hang your heads in SHAME ".......

Mary McCartney, secretary of Gretna and District Tenants and Residents Association, has urged Highland tenants to back the move to the new landlord.

She said: "Our transfer has been a very good thing. There has been more money for improvements and our tenants are more involved in how our housing association is run. So far 95 per cent of promises made have been delivered.

"I've had a huge amount of work done to my house and was able to say exactly what I wanted every step of the way. If we'd stayed with the council I don't think we'd have got anything done."

She added. "With the new organisation a lot more tenants have wanted to get involved in the management of their homes and in improving their local areas because they know they can now make a real difference."

Tenants who have not yet voted should post their ballots by tomorrow (Thursday) to ensure delivery to the London offices of the ballot company to meet the closing date of November 21

Gogglebox
15-Nov-06, 19:19
Take everyting Frank says with a large shovel of salt
(he's certainly shovelling something our way)

Hes been duplicitous before by creating his own arguements with his alter ego usernames!! (Here puss puss!!)

But then he is a politician - - -and a Solidarity one at that

Hes backed Honest Tommy "Pants On Fire" Sheridan- -how daft may that look after the court of appeal !!

Career takes a further dive and popularity plunges from the heady heights of 3.92%

frank ward
16-Nov-06, 11:10
Dr Szin says "The P&J article is a little more objective."

How would he know? I have the original leaked emails and the letter, Dr Szin does not, neither has he asked me for a copy, as I invited.

So how can he assert that the P&J is 'more objective' without having seen the original material?

In fact the P&J article is, as one would expect, feeble. It fails to question the embarassed responses of the Labour hacks, and asks no supplemerntary questionds.
But that is the nature of the paper: It gets a story from someone, reduces it to one or two tame questions, and publishes the response. The story is then dropped.

The Labour Party has no footsoldiers left. If Roger Saxon needed to distribute leaflets around Thurso, (Ha!) he would have to do it himself. The only 'active' people left in the Labour party are careerist union officials, councillors, and their families. Everyone else is so dissillusioned by Iraq, privatisation, pensions etc they have voted with their feet.

The original leaked Emails will be published shortly on the website below:
www.HAST2006.org.uk

golach
16-Nov-06, 11:36
Would you vote for this man?
http://www.scottishsocialistparty.info/2006/10/colin-fox-at-ssp-conference.html

Not me!!, As much as I am not fond of our First Minister Jackie Boy, there is no way I would vote for this back stabbing so called politician. IMO he is a jumped up left wing shop steward nothing more

JAWS
16-Nov-06, 11:40
Sounds more to me like the panic is in case the transfer does go through. I've usually found that if the objections increase in their regularity and become increasingly strident the closer something gets then the more sensible the idea is.

How many places where the change has already occurred is there a massive outcry from the tenants involved for there to be a change back?
And I mean from ordinary tenants, not from the political ideologues!

For the SSP or whatever name militant is going under at present to claim anybody is in turmoil has to be the joke of the century.

What next, the Captain of the Titanic giving a lecture on Safety at Sea?

frank ward
16-Nov-06, 13:29
The new company 'promises' to spend £13 million per year, and their ten-year business plan will upgrade kitchens at the rate of approx 400 properties per year.
This actually compares unfavourably with the Highland Council's recent record, which has been achieved despite being starved of central funding.

Investment in Council housing is continuing and in 2005/06, £14.3 million was spent on works such as: installing new central heating [542properties]; energy efficiency improvements; modernisation work; new windows and doors; kitchen improvements [762] and rewiring [777].

The 542 central heating sysytem upgrades/installation excludes the Wick district heating scheme.

JAWS
16-Nov-06, 14:58
Jaws says: "The transfer will not make one penny difference to me"

If Jaws is a highland council tax payer and has read the HAST website figures [as provided by the Council itserf] he will see that he will be adversely affected by transfer.Then that will be the same difference as everybody else in the same position. That is a price I am willing to pay for the general good. And don't try to convince me it's not because I've seen the benefits of the change to tennants where it has occurred elsewhere.

I saw the wonderful Council Schemes built in the North-West of England in the 1960s. The good people of Manchester will be paying for them until after 2020. They are also now paying for the cost of them being demolished over 10 years ago. You borrow money over a 60 year period to pay for something that you are then going to have to pay to be demolish after just over 30 years. Now that's what I call magic, pure magic.

Anybody heard of System Building? Blocks of high rise flats. Dead cheap. Put up in no time at all.
Unfortunately they fall down even faster, ask the people of Ronan Point. Those that didn't die in the collapse I mean. I don't think that block lasted more than a handful of years.
Then it cost a fortune to have every similar block in the Country to have the joints checked and strengthened at public expense. I dread to think how much that cost everybody.

Trust politicians with providing houses? I'd rather try living in an igloo in a heat wave.

Frank, I've seen the way Councils manage housing schemes and personally I'd rather trust a Con Man trying to rent me the Eiffel Tower.

Oh yes, and I've just had a glance at the HAST site. It says everybody is going to get rich except the Tenants. Now I'm being told that if I'm not a Tenant I'm going to be worse off. Well, well, what can I say. I've heard that sort of logical economic arguments from the far left before.

Didn't a Council once send a lot of their workers redundancy notices because they had no money? How did they have them delivered? By taxi of course, how else would you do it!
The same council did away with the wasteful trappings of the Lord Mayor by getting rid of the Mayoral Coach and all the horses used to pull it. Then they realised they had a "no redundancies" policy. You now have lots of people looking after a non existent coach and even more looking after empty stables with no horses. All in the interest of economies, of course.

The Deputy Leader of the Council was a typical working class "Man of the People" who believed in equality for everybody and none of this "elitist" nonsense. Just like every other typical working class man who would have nothing to do with elitism he had very sharp expensively tailored suits and a very expensive car with his Personalised Number Plate amongst other expensive gimmicks which he was only too keen to flaunt.
Well, aren’t we all like that?

Can't quite remember where all that happened, but no doubt somebody will be able to enlighten us.

Me? I believe everything they tell me, honest I do.

frank ward
16-Nov-06, 15:53
The vast majority of Highland Council housing is good quality and in sound condition.
Both the council and private associations are forced to use the same monopoly builders [eg Morrisons] for larger projects.

However Housing associations are under even more pressure to show a return on their banks' investments, hence their fondness for high-intensity housing, and homes with smaller rooms etc.
Therse may look nice when they're new but time will be the judge.

I know Jaws [too busy attacking me or my politics, a case of 'shoot the messenger'] has no interest in facts or the interests of tenants or even the interests of council tax payers, but perhaps other readers might like to know them:

http://www.hast2006.org.uk/banks.htm

extract:
"By 2008 the banks will have made over A billion pounds in interest from tenants' rents alone. Money that could have been invested in public housing instead ends up in private hands.
The venal motive of the Banks is taking its toll - Scotland's RSLs expect total interest payments to grow by 48% in the next few years. The last published figures show that, despite low base rates, Scotland's RSLs are paying over 6% interest and they paid out over £84.3 million in interest charges in 2005 alone."

[RSLs: Registered Social Landlords ie Housing Associations]

JAWS
17-Nov-06, 10:07
Facts I am interested in, political posturing I am not. I'm quite happy for the people who live in the properties to make their own minds up about where their interests are best served.

Politically motivated people trying to frighten people because they might escape their control are the things I take no notice of.

Politicians who think they should have control of everything are only interested in one thing and that's power over the people. The louder the screams that people should not take this or that bit of control off them the more they convince me that my suspicions are correct.

I still haven't heard of anywhere which had already made the change where there is a huge outcry to change back. That speaks louder to me than any amount of reports, pressure groups with vested interests or even leaked emails.

If the politically motivated spent less time trying to force people in a direction that they want and spent more time listening to what people want then things would be a lot better. Contrary to certain political dogma, people really are intelligent enough to make their own decisions and don't need someone with a tendency to tell them what to do.

As soon as a politician tells me that something is in my "best interest" I know immediately what I should do and that's head in the oposite direction as fast as I possibly can because "I know it makes sense". I learned that from a man with a pipe, everytime his lips moved.

Bobinovich
17-Nov-06, 11:22
Very well said Jaws. I'd summarise it into once sentence 'Be wary in your trust of politicians - the vast majority are simply self serving, while the ones who are genuinely in it on behalf of their constituents are few and far between.'

frank ward
17-Nov-06, 14:50
Jaws you have yet to make a meaningful contribution to this thread, only irrelevant attacks on my politics.
The disillusion within the Labour party is real and widespread.

Once council houses are transferred they become the assets of a private company, so there can be no return to council ownership or supervision. The company cannot even give them away, except to another company.

The World Trade organisation and the GATS [General Agreement On Trade in Services] agreements allow private companies to apply and bid for public services but do not permit public bodies to do the same for privatised services.

If the tenants of a housing association wanted to unburden themselves of the high overheads and request that they be managed by a local authority, even if the homes remained the propertyof the company, they would not be allowed to by law.