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RecQuery
02-Apr-12, 08:45
According to Peter Cruddas, the former party treasurer (cash for access guy)


Conservatives 'faking opposition to position themselves for a post-independence deal'

Conservatives must be 'seen to be fighting to keep the Union together,' says former party treasurer, 'even if we don’t agree with it.'

The Prime Minister has been urged to explain claims by his disgraced former treasurer that the Conservatives are campaigning against independence to secure a good deal for England should the UK be broken up.

Peter Cruddas, who resigned last weekend after being filmed selling secret meetings with David Cameron, said the party should even be prepared to fake its opposition to Scottish independence to get a better break-up deal for England.

The Sunday Times has released footage in which Cruddas says the Tories must give the impression they support the union - even if they don’t - as this would ensure England gets the best possible deal from the break up of Britain if Scots vote for independence in the 2014 referendum.

Speaking to an undercover reporter, Mr Cruddas said: "He (David Cameron) told me that he wants to fight to keep the union ... he told me that was, those were his true feelings, however, even if they’re not, we as a party have to be seen to be fighting to keep the Union together. Even if we don’t agree with it, because at the end of it all, if the Scots say we’re out of here and they want to go independent, we can turn around and say it’s not what we wanted, it’s not what we campaigned for, you can’t have this, you can’t have that, and you can get on with it."

The SNP described the footage as a “bombshell” for the Tories and claimed they are obviously resigned to losing the referendum.

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said: “This is another bombshell for the Scottish Tories, who are isolated and irrelevant in the games being played by their London bosses.

“It shows that senior Tories in London are cynically faking their opposition to independence to position themselves for a post-independence deal.

“The Cruddas revelations show that they believe in nothing except protecting Westminster interests. Their claims about winning the referendum are exposed as mere bravado. In fact they are already preparing for losing.

“After a rich man's budget, a petrol panic and now the exposure of their true feelings towards Scotland, the last Tory would be as well turning in their membership card now.”

A spokesperson for the First Minister said: “This transcript directly contradicts the Prime Minister's spokesperson's account of his conversations with Peter Cruddas. His appointee as Tory treasurer is on tape displaying his contempt for Scotland and our parliament and directly implicates the Prime Minister in that attitude.

“The First Minister believes that Prime Minister owes Scotland a full and detailed explanation of the Cruddas revelations. He will demand one."

A Scottish Conservative Party spokesman said: "The Prime Minister has always been very clear that he wants to keep the Union together. Indeed the transcript shows that the Prime Minister privately told Peter Cruddas that his true feelings are to support and to fight for the union. One of our fundamental beliefs as a Party is that the United Kingdom is better off together."

The footage filmed by reporters posing as potential donors also shows Cruddas claiming that he and Cameron both referred to Salmond as “the mad Scotsman” - and talking in derogatory terms about the Scottish parliament.
http://news.stv.tv/politics/302147-conservatives-are-faking-their-opposition-to-independence-to-position-themselves-for-a-post-independence-deal/

ducati
02-Apr-12, 09:29
According to Peter Cruddas, the former party treasurer (cash for access guy)


http://news.stv.tv/politics/302147-conservatives-are-faking-their-opposition-to-independence-to-position-themselves-for-a-post-independence-deal/

That article says that David Cameron believes in the Union.

All the rest is the opinion of a pillock and some SNP bods desperately jumping on a non existent non believing in the union.

Didn't you read it before posting?

RecQuery
02-Apr-12, 09:58
That article says that David Cameron believes in the Union.

All the rest is the opinion of a pillock and some SNP bods desperately jumping on a non existent non believing in the union.

Didn't you read it before posting?

Notice how it said Tories, and not Cameron. A political party is not its leader, the Prime Minister is not a president or a dictator. Besides parts of the Conservative party are upset with the 'modernising leadership' [1 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/9176237/Even-Im-starting-to-wonder-what-do-this-lot-know-about-anything.html), 2 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9179933/The-Conservatives-should-prepare-for-life-after-Cameron.html)]

Those claims came from the recorded conversations reporters had with him, there's apparently more to follow.

ducati
02-Apr-12, 10:00
I'm sure some Torys believe in fairies or space aliens so what?

RecQuery
02-Apr-12, 10:15
I'm sure some Torys believe in fairies or space aliens so what?

Well I would have imagined that in order to the become the Conversation Party Treasurer that you would have to be a fairly savvy individual in one aspect or another - even if it's not identifying a journalist sting - and that you can tell the difference between the crazy fringes and a significant bloc within your own party. You're not the sort of person to repeat any old crap you hear to a potential large donor unless it was a significant opinion.

I suspect David Cameron might have different opinions on independence if he wasn't the Prime Minister; no one wants to be the Prime Minister that presided over the breakup of the UK.

Corrie 3
02-Apr-12, 10:19
I think the Tories are doing a brilliant job in helping the case for Independence.
Screwing the poor and disabled, robbing Scotland of it's funding, using Scottish funding for the London games, being made a laughing stock by the Unions only last week.....the list is endless and anyone who wants to be ruled by these idiots any longer must be as daft as they are!!

C3................:roll:

RecQuery
02-Apr-12, 10:56
I think the Tories are doing a brilliant job in helping the case for Independence.
Screwing the poor and disabled, robbing Scotland of it's funding, using Scottish funding for the London games, being made a laughing stock by the Unions only last week.....the list is endless and anyone who wants to be ruled by these idiots any longer must be as daft as they are!!

C3................:roll:

One of those Telegraph articles I linked later, had some good points actually:



...So this gerrymandering with jerry cans, along with the rows about pasties, dinners for donors and granny taxes, sheds light on the present discontent. People detect selfishness.

As modernisers such as Mr Maude rightly never tire of pointing out, voters judge politicians more on motive than on policy. It may sound an odd thing to say on the day after George Galloway got back into Parliament, but what people crave is authenticity. They do not need to like their leaders, or agree with them, but they do want to understand why they are doing what they are doing, whether they care about the country they govern...

...Being myself a southern, public-school, Oxbridge person, I do not feel patronised by this milieu, but even I, as I watched the Budget on television and saw the “Quad” of Messrs Cameron, Clegg, Osborne and Alexander all in a self-congratulatory, Oxford Union row, did get that “What do they know about anything?” feeling which, opinion polls suggest, is doing the Coalition harm...

ducati
02-Apr-12, 11:40
Well I would have imagined that in order to the become the Conversation Party Treasurer that you would have to be a fairly savvy individual in one aspect or another - even if it's not identifying a journalist sting - and that you can tell the difference between the crazy fringes and a significant bloc within your own party. You're not the sort of person to repeat any old crap you hear to a potential large donor unless it was a significant opinion.

I suspect David Cameron might have different opinions on independence if he wasn't the Prime Minister; no one wants to be the Prime Minister that presided over the breakup of the UK.

While I imagine a significant number of Conservative voters would be very happy with Scotland's independence, (as would a significant number of other English voters) it is not overtly or covertly an aim of the party.

The SNP has a good strategy though, do enough whinging and the rest of the British public will be pleased to get shot of 'em. An opinion that the ruling parties will need to take note of.

RecQuery
02-Apr-12, 11:55
While I imagine a significant number of Conservative voters would be very happy with Scotland's independence, (as would a significant number of other English voters) it is not overtly or covertly an aim of the party.

The SNP has a good strategy though, do enough whinging and the rest of the British public will be pleased to get shot of 'em. An opinion that the ruling parties will need to take note of.

I can't help but admire the unionist ability to turn an embarrassment for them into an insult directed at the SNP and yet somehow keep a straight face and remain indignant while doing it.

ducati
02-Apr-12, 12:35
I can't help but admire the unionist ability to turn an embarrassment for them into an insult directed at the SNP and yet somehow keep a straight face and remain indignant while doing it.

I thank you :lol:

weezer 316
03-Apr-12, 18:09
I can't help but admire the unionist ability to turn an embarrassment for them into an insult directed at the SNP and yet somehow keep a straight face and remain indignant while doing it.

Recquery I know who you are and I know your not a fool, so I can only assume your letting patriotism get in the way of thinking. Your making a balnket assumption that becuase some (operative words being some) tories want Scotland out the union that its in our, and your, interests to do so!?! And that makes it some kind of validation of your independence stance also seemingly.

Why cant you lot just make the case? You in particular rightly argue against religions stating the burden of proof is on them, and in this case the burden of proof is on you. Instead we get threads like this.

RecQuery
03-Apr-12, 19:50
Recquery I know who you are and I know your not a fool, so I can only assume your letting patriotism get in the way of thinking. Your making a balnket assumption that becuase some (operative words being some) tories want Scotland out the union that its in our, and your, interests to do so!?! And that makes it some kind of validation of your independence stance also seemingly.

Why cant you lot just make the case? You in particular rightly argue against religions stating the burden of proof is on them, and in this case the burden of proof is on you. Instead we get threads like this.

This thread and the others recently were a test on my part. The amount of stories I see which I could post here are fairly high but I just don't. With these I wanted to see what the reaction to them would be compared to some other soap-boxy threads.

The thing with politics - unlike science engineering or technology - is that the evidence is less definitive, open to interpretation and subject to emotional manipulation - the AV referendum for example there were a ton of lies in that and people believed them - It's where the Civil Service fails in my opinion, they should be an entity with no political bias that either helps implement policy or provides facts and figures. It's not though and so potentially politicised, obfuscated or manipulated papers, reports and figures are produced. Leading to there being credible evidence and complete fabrications on both/all sides depending on some details and what happens in the future, neither side wants to be too reasonable or admit to this though or they'll get jumped on by reactionaries and the media.

People don't want to hear that things are complicated and nuanced and open to chance in some situations, they want to have their biases confirmed, people will downright refuse to acknowledge proof or just shout their argument louder in the face of it. This forces the reasonable people on both/all sides to adopt similar tactics - in the belief that the outcome will be beneficial in the long run - or face being ignored or sidelined.

The truth is that the party with the most money and the most cohesive statement usually wins. Ever notice how politicians and sympathetic media will repeat the same soundbite, word-for-word it may look bloody stupid to you and I but it works and that soundbite makes it into the public consciousness and other people start using it and believing it. I'm guessing you've heard of the Colbert Rally in the US, it was basically the reasonable people on both/all sides getting together and telling the extremists, demagogues and sensationalist media to go away.

Academia, the media and think tanks are just as bad if not worse than the Civil Service. I often think that any organisation that makes a public statement or press release should have to provide a list of funding, affiliations and board members.

The burden of proof thing is usually invoked when someone is being asked to disprove a negative, we don't have a negative in this case we have one side that thinks Scotland will do better on its own or with at least more political powers within the UK and we have another side that thinks that Scotland will do better if it remains a part of the UK. Neither side is running away from a negative they're both running towards positives.