Well well well!

[Aaldtimer]

This should answer a lot of questions... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-17515935 :)

[Yon Chiel]

At its peak in the 1880s 8.8% could speak Gaelic (which included 'migrant' workers in the herring industry I would presume).

On that precedent there is definitely a case in modern times to have all signs in the county written in Polish as well as English.

[gleeber]

Had I been born in Caithnes around 200 years ago and had an inclination to protect the heritage of my birth I may well have fought to preserve the Gaelic language as an integral part of Caithness heritage. However 200 years later Gaelic plays no part in my heritage although I have a respect for other cultures and a respect for the Gaelic language but those of you who insist Gaelic is as much a part of my heritage as Norse or English disrespect me by insisting I must now accept Gaelic.
I think its wrong that a modern Gaelic movement consisting of various nationalities whose only connection to the past in caithness is... well I dont know what that connection is although Aaldtimers trying to make one. Whats your connection Aaldtimer? Are you a native Gaelic speaker born anywhere in scotland whose love of its heritage insists that those who defend theirs must also follow yours?

[RecQuery]

I'm sure a high percentage of people in parts of Scotland can speak different languages now (Polish, Urdu, Hindi etc) that isn't indicative of a history though. Merely that there are people who can speak those languages.

The article is too vague, I wouldn't put it past people whether local or in government at that time to reclassify some particularly strong accents, dialects, or patois as Gaelic. Also the author and I seem to disagree on the definition of some of the words he's using; they don't mean what he thinks they mean. The word predominant for example.

EDIT: Finally how many people speak Gaelic here now? I'm sure that lots of people in England spoke Latin, Old English and French at various points yet it would be stupid to erect signs or use those languages in official documents.

[Aaldtimer]

Gleeber, I disrespect no-one, I insist on nothing, I look for no "followers"!

I merely posted a link to an article of interest to a lot of people on this forum.

I do, however, find your antipathy towards Gaelic curious. Surely it must play some part, however small, in the mix of Caithness heritage.

I'm not a Gaelic speaker, but born and bred in Scotland, my only connections with
Caithness is having lived here for 33 years, and having raised two children here.
:)

[golach]

Ochone Ochone Ochone, gleeber will not admit that Gaelic was ever spoken in Caithness, thank you Auldtimer for that link. Not sure why he is so against the Gaels.

[gleeber]

I'm not anti-Gaelic. I'm an opponent of the Gaelic language (Scotland) Act 2005. Big Difference.
Those of you who support the Gaelicisation of Caithness have little regard for the heritage I grew up in. I find that disrespectful and Anti-Caithness. [disgust]

[Aaldtimer]

Gleeber, I don't want to get into the political argument, but I'm not being disrespectful of your position or Anti-Caithness.

The way I see it is that heritage includes the whole of the past, not some pick&mix of what you prefer.

Gaelic is demonstrably part of Caithness history...live with it!:confused

[gleeber]

Most people who come to live in caithness love the place warts and all. I have a lots of warts but none of it is down to the inanimate prescence of Caithness herself. She stands there as a symbol of perseverence and dogged human endeavor. Her topography has been formed over millions of years and until as recently as 8000 years ago it was all natural. Once man came on the scene he shaped her to his own delight and future generations then played their parts in doing what needed to be done.
By the time I came on the scene she was pretty much as she is today. Caithness has always been an open door to people who wanted to settle here and although Im aware of the incomer term I have little sympathy with those who use it in a derogatory fashion. I do however stand firm against people who come here either to stay or with an act of parliament in their hand to change overnight whats taken thousands of years to make Caithness what is is.
I can live with Gaelic because I have to. Its the law but dont be arrogant enough to tell me its a part of my heritage. It may well be a part of other peoples romantic vision of their heritage but in caithness its an artificial injection of someone elses heritage and in this case yours Aaldtimer.

[crayola]

Some of the claims in the owld timer's link are misleading. The large Gaelic speaking population of Latheron in 1881 and 1891 were born in Caithness but they were the children of Cattachs from the clearances more than half a century previously.

[golach]

Some of the claims in the owls timer's like are misleading. The large Gaelic speaking population of Latheron in 1881 and 1891 were born in Caithness but they were the children of Cattachs from the clearances more than half a century previously.

Regardless of where they came from they lived in Caithness. Where did the Norse come from? Did they just appear from nowhere, I think not. So why is Norse acceptable and not Gaelic?

[Yon Chiel]

If I was a member of the Gaelic Jihad then I think I would have buried that report rather than promote it as it doesn't really support their argument. If it had said 88% rather than 8.8% they might have had a point to make. But if anything this just confirms what everyone else had said - at best it was a minority language.

[Alan16]

I'm sure a high percentage of people in parts of Scotland can speak different languages now (Polish, Urdu, Hindi etc) that isn't indicative of a history though. Merely that there are people who can speak those languages.


Regardless of where they came from they lived in Caithness. Where did the Norse come from? Did they just appear from nowhere, I think not. So why is Norse acceptable and not Gaelic?

Golach, if we agree to the idea that we should erect signs in Gaelic now, can we all agree that we should include Polish or Urdu or Hindi signs a hundred or less years from now as well? As RecQuery says I'm sure there is a relatively high percentage of speakers of those language in Scotland currently. Those language will have came to Scotland and been continued in Scotland via family traditions the same way Gaelic was or Norse.

[Aaldtimer]

I can live with Gaelic because I have to. Its the law but dont be arrogant enough to tell me its a part of my heritage. It may well be a part of other peoples romantic vision of their heritage but in caithness its an artificial injection of someone elses heritage and in this case yours Aaldtimer.

Gleeber, take a look at an Ordinance Survey map of Caithness.

Mostly, admittedly, in the western part of the county, and see the amount of Gaelic name places there are.

"Facts are cheils that winna ding" comes to mind!

I don't think this is a modern invention.:lol:

P.S. Gaelic is not in my heritage. Unless I want to go way back into my Irish antecedents!

[gleeber]

Will you stop trying to tell me that there was Gaelic in caithness. Im aware that parts of caithness may have been native Gaelic speaking over a thousand years ago and you with no Gaelic heritage now insist we must bring it back. Whats that about? I fail to understand why an English speaking non Gael insists that the Gaelic language must be given equal authority to English in his adopted county. Why?
As a counter measure to your claims of place name evidence to support your right of the Gaelic language to merrily walk into caithness where its more than obviously unwelcome by a large majority of the local people I have evidence too to suppoprt the claim that Gaelic may never ever have been the language of caithness, even pre-Norse when it may have been that the local Picts did not speak a celtic language. Its unlikely you or Golach will make any attempt to understand the deeper aspects of this debate but if you want to check it out theres a scholarly essay included in the book, Caithness a Cultural Crossroads and entitled Scandinavians and celts in Caithness: The Place Names Evidence and written by W.F.H. Nicolaisen. I know theres a copy in the reference section of Thurso library but I have a copy here if anyones interested I could scan it to them.
If you still insist on Caithness being Gaelicised at least try to understand why some of us are gainst it. caithness along with the Northern Isles are a special case and should have been excluded from the forces of the Gaelic Act which has been more than welcome in the kingdom of Inverness and although some of our councillors have been blowing hot air about it for a long time I feel thay have let caithness down in their lack of effort to defend the special position of Caithness in its history and heritage.
Im resigned to the Gaelicisation of Caithness. In spite of the road signs not appearing the process is well on its way. Most people are not bothered. They have more to worry about than a bunch of romancers defending a movement whose finger must have been well and truly in the pie when scotlands parliament reformed in 1997. Fair play to them but I welcome them as neighbours to Caithness, not masters.

[Aaldtimer]

Who said anytjing about road signs?
Who said anything about bringing it back?
Not I!:confused

[golach]

Who said anytjing about road signs?
Who said anything about bringing it back?
Not I!:confused

I go fully along with this post, Auldtimer never mentioned road signs or imposing Gaelic on the residents of Caithness, in fact neither did I so Alan16, so pull your neck in [disgust]

[ducati]

aye long wee eck will insist we all speak garlic an incomers will be force fed neeps n tatties n haggis till they cry uncle n go hame

or our arteris fur up n we die

[Dog-eared]

Ah think e rod signs in wur coonty shood be in Weeker. Cos Thurso is threequartur Eanglish . Week gets e vote on numburs. E only time ave herd e garlic wis when a went intil a pub in Kyleakin. An at wis only for fore secunds afore they all stared at me in silence.

[Partan]

This should answer a lot of questions... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-17515935 :)

Aaldtimer - thanks for posting this.

I have read the BBC Alba article by Donald Morrison interpreting the academic research.

I still do not understand your statement - what questions and what answers?

Partan

[Aaldtimer]

Partan, the questions that are usually raised when the subject of Gaelic in Caithness appears.
See lots of previous threads... just put "Gaelic" in the search box at the top of the page.

The link is for new research which I thought might be of interest to some.:)

[Partan]

Partan, the questions that are usually raised when the subject of Gaelic in Caithness appears.
See lots of previous threads... just put "Gaelic" in the search box at the top of the page.

The link is for new research which I thought might be of interest to some.:)

Aaldtimer

There are many questions out there - only you can tell us which are answered.

You took the time to post the link and claimed that it would answer lots of questions.

The responsibility is with you to define the questions answered.

Partan

[gleeber]

I suspect Partan that you know as well as I do what the intent was behind Aaldtimers thread. It was a kind of victory thread. Well well well, what do you know, caithness is Gaelic after all. His further posts on the subject show the depth of his knowledge about the debate and that is reinforced by the fact that Golach agrees with him.
:eek:
Welcome back to the org btw.

[Aaldtimer]

I suspect Partan that you know as well as I do what the intent was behind Aaldtimers thread.

Aye, you're right , trolling...a new species, a crustacean troll! That's why I didn't reply to his second post.

It was a kind of victory thread. Well well well, what do you know, caithness is Gaelic after all.

Sorry Gleeber, there was no such intent at all. Just an interesting link to add to the debate.

His further posts on the subject show the depth of his knowledge about the debate...
Such condescencion is unworthy of you Gleeber, I may not be such an expert on the history of Caithness as yourself, but I have followed the various threads about the subject...always willing to learn.
As me old Dad used to say, "The more you know, the more you don't know."

Actually, I'd forgotten to say, I'm interested in your offer to scan that info on place names etc...can I PM you my e-addy?

[gleeber]

Aye aye. Ill believe you thousands wouldnt.
Pm me your address.

[Partan]

[QUOTE=Aaldtimer;940601]I suspect Partan that you know as well as I do what the intent was behind Aaldtimers thread.

Aye, you're right , trolling...a new species, a crustacean troll! That's why I didn't reply to his second post.

[COLOR=#0000ff]

Not being an inveterate poster I was unsure what a “troll” was. I checked the dictionary definition and, although I “trolled” for mackerel in my youth, I do not think that that was what Aaldtimer intended. I suppose I should be offended but, hey, I have made intemperate remarks in the past which I immediately regretted. Perhaps Aaldtimer may also regret the comment.

Crustaceans are known for their persistence so I will try again to get Aaldtimer to tell us what questions were answered by his link.

Gleebers post clarified Aaldtimers position vis-à-vis Gaelic and Caithness so I must assume that the latter must have felt that the link provided support for his/her viewpoint. The journalist from BBC Alba (a non-neutral perhaps?) claimed that academic research, based on census returns, showed a very strong presence of Gaelic in Caithness at the time of the censuses.

Nobody would disagree that the south and western parishes of the county (Latheron, Halkirk and Reay) would have a soild Gaelic speaking presence at that time. However Caithness had/has other parishes (Wick, Keiss, Canisbay, Bower, Watten, Thurso and Dunnet) and no figures were quoted for those.

So again Aaldtimer what questions have been answered?

Ma ould faither used to say that "it takes one to know one" so perhaps you should remove the mote from your own eye.

Partan

[squidge]

So were they speaking Scots at this time in the places where they were not speaking gaelic ?

[gleeber]

According to Nicolaisens research Caithness was never bi-lingual and never Celtic. Even the Pictish tribes who lived in the land of the Cat before the Norse arrived were not celtic. Modern Gaels like to point to various gaelic place names around the county but often those names are English/Gaelic derivations of earlier Norse names. There's no evidence that Gaelic was ever the predominant language in Caithness. In fact the opposite is the case. The Caithness dialect evolved from Norse which over hundreds of years mixed with scots and English and no doubt a hint of Irish Gaelic has become what it is today.
Dogeared is right though. The Thurso side of the county is not as strongly caithness as the Weekers. Thurso dialects become more refined since Dounreay arrived.
Gaelic has as much relationship to a modern caithness as it had to an ancient one so why should the law insist Caithness is Gaelicised?

[peter macdonald]

aye long wee eck will insist we all speak garlic an incomers will be force fed neeps n tatties n haggis till they cry uncle n go hame

or our arteris fur up n we die

The Gaelic Act 2005 was passed by the Labour government of Jack MacConnell ..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_Language_%28Scotland%29_Act_2005 ..The minister involved was Peter Peacock from Fort William.. Its a fact certain Labour candidates in the north try to forget when they were spouting in the Northern Times a few years ago PM

[sids]

Of course there were Gaelic speakers in Caithness. Our lot killed them all.

What's this- do they fancy another go?

[gleeber]

What I like about academic material is it helps me think outside my own prejudices. It made me think about the first boats to appear in Thurso bay and what happened when they came ashore. Its about 1200 years ago but who knows where the lot who were already here came from? 1200 years and surrounded by Gaels and they kept their own identity and their language wisna Gaelic but they got on as best they could with one another. Thats good going and then 1200 years later the Highland council votes to Gaelicise Caithness. Boy boy.

[Aaldtimer]

Gleeber, thanks for the e-ms, will get round to d/ling and reading them as soon as I can. Much appreciated.

[gleeber]

Not many people seem interested in this issue. Theres one or two letters hit the Groat now and again and sometimes our local councilors flash their concerns but on the whole the Gaelic Act is taking effect in caithness. Road signs will come at a later date when all the antis are gone, me included. Its just a matter of time. Aaldtimer and his mate Golach will be happy though. Good luck to them. Nothing personal but I hope they dont live to see it.
Ye still havnt answered Partans question Aaldtimer. :lol:

[Aaldtimer]

To be perfectly honest about it Gleeber, it's a matter of supreme indifference to whether the county gets Gaelic road signs or not.
I've had a quick read of the stuff you sent and find it very interesting, if a bit turgid.
Might have to read it again to get it into the memory banks though.
I still don't understand your antipathy though, especially with a surname which is derived from the Language of Eden!;)

And just for Crabbie....The when? The where? The how many?...clear enough for you now?:roll:

[gleeber]

I still don't understand your antipathy though, especially with a surname which is derived from the Language of Eden!;)


Ahhh the mother tongue. :lol:
Ive told you before I have no antipathy towards the Gaelic language, but the Gaelic Language Act.
That you found the research turgid says more about you than it does about the article. Its scholarly, well written and authoritive and says someting about Caithness history that shouldnt be ignored. For that reason it's not supremely indifferent to the heritage of Caithness.
You still havnt answered Partans question. :roll:

[Aaldtimer]

Gleeber..."Its scholarly, well written and authoritive"...no question, absolutely so, but then I'm just a simple fellow not used to reading scholarly thesis. And, ultimately, that's all it is, one man's theory, however well reasoned. I certainly won't ignore it.

As for Crabbie, that's the only answer he'll get from me, he can work out the rest for himself.

[gleeber]

As for Crabbie, that's the only answer he'll get from me, he can work out the rest for himself.
Och min. We already worked it out. Just trying to show you youv'e been rumbled. Wer'e not all 'Heelan' in Caithness. ;)

[Partan]

Will you stop trying to tell me that there was Gaelic in caithness. Im aware that parts of caithness may have been native Gaelic speaking over a thousand years ago and you with no Gaelic heritage now insist we must bring it back. Whats that about? I fail to understand why an English speaking non Gael insists that the Gaelic language must be given equal authority to English in his adopted county. Why?
As a counter measure to your claims of place name evidence to support your right of the Gaelic language to merrily walk into caithness where its more than obviously unwelcome by a large majority of the local people I have evidence too to suppoprt the claim that Gaelic may never ever have been the language of caithness, even pre-Norse when it may have been that the local Picts did not speak a celtic language. Its unlikely you or Golach will make any attempt to understand the deeper aspects of this debate but if you want to check it out theres a scholarly essay included in the book, Caithness a Cultural Crossroads and entitled Scandinavians and celts in Caithness: The Place Names Evidence and written by W.F.H. Nicolaisen. I know theres a copy in the reference section of Thurso library but I have a copy here if anyones interested I could scan it to them.
If you still insist on Caithness being Gaelicised at least try to understand why some of us are gainst it. caithness along with the Northern Isles are a special case and should have been excluded from the forces of the Gaelic Act which has been more than welcome in the kingdom of Inverness and although some of our councillors have been blowing hot air about it for a long time I feel thay have let caithness down in their lack of effort to defend the special position of Caithness in its history and heritage.
Im resigned to the Gaelicisation of Caithness. In spite of the road signs not appearing the process is well on its way. Most people are not bothered. They have more to worry about than a bunch of romancers defending a movement whose finger must have been well and truly in the pie when scotlands parliament reformed in 1997. Fair play to them but I welcome them as neighbours to Caithness, not masters.

Gleeber

The offer contained in your post is a generous gesture to your fellow boarders. All properly researched material is useful in formulating the most likely explanation for any issue which engenders dissent.

What I would caution against, however, is any assumption of Damascene conversions - they tend to be few and far between. The most you can hope for is the eventual realisation that your scenario is the right one.

In many cases even the latter will not happen. The Caithness saying "Pork cannot be educated" is a tenet worthy of remembering.

More power to your elbow.

Partan

[gleeber]

The Caithness saying "Pork cannot be educated" is a tenet worthy of remembering.Partan
LOL Thats the second time this week someone said that to me although the other one was related to a different issue
Your right. It's important to have belief and I believe it. That helps but there's always the lingering doubts and lack of support. The best I can do is stand up for caithness as I see it. Our councillors although some of them blow off a bit about the issue are basically lame when it comes to standing up for Caithness against the Gaelic movement in Inverness. What chance have I got?
At least its entertaining and at times informative.:lol:

[crayola]

Which councillors would they be then gleeber? ;) I suggest we try to tempt back the former councillor that headed south some years ago and now represents her new area. I believe the ould crustacean knows her. :)

[crayola]

So were they speaking Scots at this time in the places where they were not speaking gaelic ? Aye they were that. And a recht guid tongue it wiz tae.

[Partan]

Which councillors would they be then gleeber? ;) I suggest we try to tempt back the former councillor that headed south some years ago and now represents her new area. I believe the ould crustacean knows her. :)

Good try but totally wrong!

Could you be referring to the onetime Deirdre Steven?

I know who she is but I have never met her. I know she was a Caithness councillor and now represents some part of Easter Ross. Reading the Groat keeps me informed.

Partan

[pinotnoir]

The most potentially confusing road sign I ever saw was about thirty five years ago whilst driving from Melness to Lochinver. Just south of what was then the Kylesku Ferry that road intersected the road from Lairg to Lochinver. The road sign directions were, pointing left, 'East', and pointing right, 'West'. Not much direction for a West Berlin tourist at the height of the Cold War.


Roots of my own family tree traced to the beginning of the eighteenth century come from Thurso, Stroma, Farr and Latheron, at least some of them were monoglot Gaels.

I have a real old mixture in my compound of clay, I would never swallow a pill unless it was evidence based.

[Aaldtimer]

Och min. We already worked it out. Just trying to show you youv'e been rumbled. Wer'e not all 'Heelan' in Caithness. ;)

Rumbled eh? Presumably meaning "found out". Not sure of what I'm being accused of here?:confused

Define "Heelan".:confused

[Aaldtimer]

[QUOTE=gleeber;941363]LOL Thats the second time this week someone said that to me although the other one was related to a different issue.

So Partan..."The Caithness saying "Pork cannot be educated" is a tenet worthy of remembering."...You claim that as a Caithness saying?

I first heard in Lincolnshire nearly 40 years ago!

But really, when you revert to personal insults it shows little input to the debate.
[disgust]

Pigs are very intelligent creatures BTW!

Anyway, this grows a little tedious to me, so I shall leave you two to your mutual masturbation session. Enjoy!

I'll leave you with a quote from Mick Aston, Professor of Archaeology, for your consideration, "The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence";)

[gleeber]

The Caithness interpretation is slightly different than the Lincolnshire one. In caithnes we say, ye canna educate pork. I dont know what it would be in Gaelic. Do you Aaldtimer. No, I didnt think so. It was your thread, offered in a very triumphal way and deserved to be challenged. Dont go running away with your tail between your legs and blame ithers for your inability to see it through. [disgust]
I was too hard on the few Caithness councillors who have shown concern about the Gaelic Act. Not all of them say much about it although its obvious some of them have a problem with it. Their hands are tied by Inverness
Caithness will eventually have its Gaelic road signs and street names will be in Gaelic and in one hundred years time the gaelic movement will boast about how they brought Gaelic back to Scotland and even to places it never was an influence on the majority of the people, ever. This is a modern movement with its driving force a collection of Aaldtimers and newcomers with a romantic vision of their own heritage which has little to do with the struggles of the early native Gaelic speakers and more to do with their own egos.
I hope future generations will record that fact.

[gleeber]

Rumbled eh? Presumably meaning "found out". Not sure of what I'm being accused of here?:confused

Define "Heelan".:confused
I missed this one.
Native Gaelic speaker.
Im accusing you of triumphalism. As your not prepared to answer Partans earlier questions I took an educated guess at the intent behind your opening this thread. You were challenged and you dont like it. Get over it.
I met an old Thurso mannie this morning when I was oot on my walk.. I asked him his opinion about the Gaelic Act. He had never heard of it and cared even less as to whether they put gaelic roadsigns up in Caithness or not. It's nonsense he said. Theres no Gaelic in Caithness but if they want it theyll get it. simple as that. Ye canna educate pork. I nearly fell over the cliffs laughing.
Dont take it so personal Aaldtimer. Theres a moral at the heart of it.

[David Banks]

When I lived in Caithness, I was not anti-Gaelic. I just thought that it was pointless for anyone to continue speaking Gaelic. If one was going to get anywhere in the world, it would be necessary to speak English or some other "big" language. If Gaelic "died," it was of no importance - who cared?

I have recently finished watching a series of lectures entitled "The History of the English Language, 2nd Edition." Near the end of the series, the prof. leaves the specific topic of English and speaks about linguistics in general.

One interesting tidbit was that the Hopi and Navajo languages of North America do not have words for light based upon the frequency of the light waves as in European languages. For example, the Hopi and Navajo can refer to green and blue with the same word. Their references to colour identify its intensity rather than to the basic colour itself.

In the 20th century, some theorists have said that "the language of a culture in some ways creates the culture." Also that, through language, the individual builds a "house of consciousness."

These ideas gave me a new way to look at languages in general, and Gaelic in particular. I can see that it would be a loss if Gaelic were allowed to 'go extinct.' Some languages may need support, and it is good that the Scottish government has taken steps to provide some of that support.

Aside 1: I don't think we have to worry about the loss of Norse anytime soon.
Aside 2: Lecture series was from The Teaching Company/The Great Courses.
Aside 3: Scottish Gaelic is also spoken in Nova Scotia, and there is a thriving Gaelic college on Cape Breton Island in the north of the province.

[John Little]

I do not think that the question here is whether one is anti-Gaelic or otherwise.

I like the sound of the Gaelic language - it's beautiful and musical and I am glad that it is flourishing.

But I do know that Gleeber is quite correct when he says that most of Caithness has never been Gaelic; there is no historical justification for imposing the use of Gaelic on most of the county.

Politically - ah well that's another question.

But in most parts of the world any attempt to impose a language and culture from outside into an area and into a people, most of whom know nothing of it, and whose ancestors took no part in it would meet with a certain resistance.

I'm slightly bemused by the whole thing for to me it looks like some sort of linguistic/cultural imperialism and the only reason I can see for it happening is because those who are doing it have the power to do so.

Ah well - not my problem really.

[gleeber]

In the 20th century, some theorists have said that "the language of a culture in some ways creates the culture." Also that, through language, the individual builds a "house of consciousness."

I could go along with that. Without consciousness we would all be grunting and groaning so consciousness is a structure around which language can be built. In my case the language that allows me to understand the world is English although on a deeper level I can understand a heavy Caithness dialect without too much trouble. Gaelic on the other hand is a foreign language to me and in historical terms is foreign to scotland. I dont hold that against the Gaelic language but I do hold it up as a defence against those who insist I must now embrace it as a part of my heritage.
A modern movement trading in artificial heritage with the support of outsiders and cultural cowboys have taken over the heritage of Caithness to satisfy the deeper and unexamined aspects of their own consciousness.

[Pollycat]

I had the pleasure of meeting Willie Fraser (which they pronounce Fray-scher) several times while in Nova Scotia. Willie is a gentleman in his 90's who resides in Cape Breton and is considered quite an authority on the Gaelic language, culture, singing and step-dancing which was transported with his family from the Western Isles in the 19th century. He was the subject of a BBC documentary and was often invited over to the Isles for workclasses in his specialities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fqVLMlDOI
http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/Albanuadh/4.2.html
http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=5641

I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fqVLMlDOI) was taken to his home and introduced to him by one of his sons as a "neighbour just come over from Scotland". Willie shook my hand and spoke to me in Gaelic. I replied with an apology and said that I didn't speak the language and that I came from Caithness. Willie just looked at me and smiled and said "Well you wouldn't speak it then, would you?" He never held it against me though Lol!!

[David Banks]

I do not think that the question here is whether one is anti-Gaelic or otherwise.

I like the sound of the Gaelic language - it's beautiful and musical and I am glad that it is flourishing.

But I do know that Gleeber is quite correct when he says that most of Caithness has never been Gaelic; there is no historical justification for imposing the use of Gaelic on most of the county.

Politically - ah well that's another question.

But in most parts of the world any attempt to impose a language and culture from outside into an area and into a people, most of whom know nothing of it, and whose ancestors took no part in it would meet with a certain resistance.

I'm slightly bemused by the whole thing for to me it looks like some sort of linguistic/cultural imperialism and the only reason I can see for it happening is because those who are doing it have the power to do so.

Ah well - not my problem really.

Pierre Trudeau had the power, and in my view he used it wisely when he introduced bilingualism for the Federal government for all of its dealings with citizens. I arrived here not long after the law was introduced.

The French were a minority in Canada, but at 30 to 35%, their numbers were significant. There were a number of people who felt they were having French imposed on them, and their objections included the cost. The attitude of drawing a line around Quebec and telling them to stay inside the line would have been the "tyranny" of the majority. The bigger picture, which was not immediately talked about, was that there were French speaking communities all across the country, even on the prairies, not to forget the Acadians (les Acadie) on the Atlantic side.

Some will always see the law as an imposition of a language and culture, but it was not "from outside," as the French were equal co-founders of present-day Canada. The defeat at The Plains of Abraham did not give English speakers the right to cancel out all previous history.

As I see it, the benefits of bilingualism have been worth it.

French immersion schooling became - and still is - very popular in English-speaking Canada. Besides being good mental exercise for children to have such training - it gives a broadening of the mind. It has (I believe) made Canadians more tolerant and welcoming of people such as immigrants from other countries.

The accommodations made to French here also helped defeat the separatist views of many in Quebec and "saved" the country. If Quebec had separated, the Maritimes would have been effectively cut off from the rest of the country.

And, before anyone asks, bilingualism seems to have done nothing to help the native peoples who were here long before the French or English. Their situation continues to bother me, and the present government has done no better than previous federal governments.

Do you want to draw some sort of line around the north west of Scotland/the Highlands, and restrict gaelic speakers to those areas?

What proportion of Scots are native gaelic speakers? Is the number large enough to warrant "official bilingualism?" I do not know the answer, but expect such things were properly discussed before action was taken.

If I may be allowed to give some advice from Canada, I recommend that you all give it a try before dismissing it as an unwanted intrusion. It will have little impact on most lives, but will make Gaelic speakers feel more appreciated and more equal.




PS: It cost me 12 bucks to take out citizenship, hence the subject line.

[John Little]

David - I'm glad it has been a positive experience for Canada, and no I do not believe in drawing lines round people. That's rather different to imposing an alien language and culture into an area where it has never been.

This is Wikipedia;

"The 2001 UK Census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_UK_Census) showed that a total of 58,652 (1.2% of the Scottish population aged over three years old)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic#cite_note-Kenneth_MacKinnon_2003-6) in Scotland had some Gaelic ability at that time,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic#cite_note-2001census-1) with the Outer Hebrides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Hebrides)being the main stronghold of the language. The census results indicate a decline of 7,300 Gaelic speakers from 1991. Despite this decline, revival efforts exist and the number of younger speakers of the language has increased.[8



(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic#cite_note-7)There is of course a perfectly good Scots language which is spoken by many of the inhabitants- which could do with a revival too- as epitomised in the poetry of one Robert Burns...

Canada is rather a different case is it not? I'd be a bit surprised if my Council tax forms began to appear in English, Gaelic, Welsh or Cornish as a matter of course; but I'd have no objection whatsoever to people requesting them. I do not know what proportion of other languages are spoken in Scotland but I suspect that some minority languages may have more speakers than Gaelic.

By your reasoning it would appear that there should be roadsigns etc in those languages too...


However I repeat that it is not my problem but one belonging to the folks up in Caithness- they can spend their cash on whatever they like!

[radiohead]

My only comment on the Gaelic debate is in these times of tightening belts there are still bi-lingual signs being erected by councils in the Highlands and Islands. Surely a single language sign system would save costs and give some money back to schemes to teach Gaelic to interested people who want to learn more about their heritage.

[crayola]

Good try but totally wrong!

Could you be referring to the onetime Deirdre Steven?

I know who she is but I have never met her. I know she was a Caithness councillor and now represents some part of Easter Ross. Reading the Groat keeps me informed.

PartanPartan sweetie, I am rarely wrong. I know you know who Deirdre is and I know she knows me. :)

As always, gleeber is right about Gaelic and the Gaelic act. It was introduced by idiots in the Labour Party and it is enforced by language fascists of all parties and none, many of whom are not fluent in the language and many of whom are English. :eek:

We know the Dundeenian's views from threads that are long dead. And long may they remain so.

[Aaldtimer]

We know the Dundeenian's views from threads that are long dead. And long may they remain so.

Really Crayo? Which threads might they be?:confused

It's "Dundonian" by the way!;)

[crayola]

Long dead threads should remain long dead. I thought you were from Dundee, not from Dundo or Dundon. Gaelic is dying and Arthur Peanut brought forward its death. Is he proud of his achievement or did he resign because he realised he expedited its end?

[Aaldtimer]

If you can't understand the English language , there's little hope you have any clue about Gaelic!;)

[John Little]

Really Crayo? Which threads might they be?:confused

It's "Dundonian" by the way!;)

This appears to be a twice fought war...

http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?91489-A-poke-between-the-eyes/page2

[gleeber]

No one needs to look back on historical posts to see where the mans coming from but thanks John for the reminder of my own objections. This thread says it all. Traditional musicians and arty types are drawn to Gaelic language and culture in the same way rockers are attracted to dope. The man was on a high when he discovered there were 2 Gaelic speakers in Caithnes 150 years ago. Give him his moment.

[John Little]

Ah - now I am afraid I have to cast doubt on the Gaelic place-names thang too.

The Ordnance Survey is an historical fact and it was commissioned in the time of George II. We even know the names of the officers who undertook the survey - from the artillery and engineers.

They undertook it in an area they were attempting to subdue- and they did not merely set off into the unknown - that would be foolish and illogical. Local guides would have been used.

It seems a reasonable assumption that if a guide was asked the name of a particular feature, then the answer would depend entirely on whether the reply came from a Gaelic or a Scots speaker.

There's also the question of the displacement of population in the Clearances in the 19th century to consider.

So just because a place name is Gaelic does not mean that it was so before the making of the map.

[crayola]

The good news is that the Garlic language is as good as dead already. Its pseudo-Gael supporters have been rumbled and the hatred of Garlic amongst ordinary people is growing by the day. Arthur Peanut must be turning in the grave of his political life. As usual the Dundeenian can't support his stance as gleeber and the crustacean have already demonstrated.

[John Little]

I could not see that as good news. A diversity of cultures is, imho, a good thing; I just don't think it should be foisted on anyone.

And I'd rather be a cetacean any day...

[pmcd]

M'Dear Little:

Hate to chip in here, but being a Citizen of the United Kingdom has already assured you First Prize in the Lottery of life, and thus I cannot think why for the life of me you would wish to seek solace as a member of the Cetaceans. I am told they are an ill-bred people with amazingly vile habits, and we are exceedingly lucky that not many of them manage to straddle Theresa May's iron-clad borders to set up home in our heartlands. I'm by no means xenophobic, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Cetaceans indulge in orgies, play loud music, are utterly work-shy, and hang around in Plankton Bars, smoking seaweed, and swearing incessantly before returning home to beat up their wives. An utter shower!

[oldmarine]

This should answer a lot of questions... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-17515935 :)

The percentages look quite small for today's Scotland. Are you suggesting that everyone follow your suggestion?

[Aaldtimer]

Oldmarine...what am I suggesting?

All I'm pointing out is that Gaelic is a part, however small, of Caithness history...


"New research claims that the Gaelic language was indigenous to many areas of Caithness - surviving into the 20th Century.
Opponents of Highland Council's policy on bi-lingual road signs have often claimed that Caithness heritage is more Norse than Gaelic and that the county was never Gaelic-speaking.
Even where it is conceded that the language was spoken in Caithness, it is often claimed to have been hundreds of years ago.
But a new breakdown of official census figures for the county's parishes suggests otherwise, showing the remnants of an indigenous Gaelic population still speaking the language into the twentieth century.
It was carried out by Hamburg-based researcher Kurt Duwe and published on the Celtic languages research website Linguae-Celticae.
The 1911 census reveals that 1,985 people spoke Gaelic in Caithness - 6.2% of the population.
The language was, however, in a process of decline, which was to see its demise in the county later in the century.
In the 1881 census 3,422, or 8.8%, were Gaelic-speaking, out of a total population of 38,868.
Relatively strong
But a breakdown by Mr Duwe of the census figures for the various parishes of the county is even more revealing.
It shows that Gaelic was spoken by up to a fifth of the population in some civil parishes into the 20th Century.
The language was still relatively strong in the western parishes of Reay, Latheron and Halkirk.
The official census returns show Reay and Latheron parishes were still 18.8% Gaelic-speaking in 1911, just three years before the outbreak of World War I.
In Latheron, 850 people aged three years and over spoke Gaelic, in a total population of 4,520.
Reay showed 173 speakers in a population of 920. Of 2,158 people in Halkirk parish, 177 people spoke Gaelic - 8.2% of the population.
Even in the parish of Thurso, there were 216 speakers (5.4%).
Sutherland clearances
Thirty years previously, the language had been even stronger.
In the first census which measured Gaelic, in 1881, 8.8% of Caithness inhabitants spoke the language.
In Latheron, that amounted to 1,914 people - 28.7% of the population.
There were 477 speakers in Reay (39.8%) and 253 in Halkirk (9.4%).
Even in the more central parish of Watten 167 people (11.9%) spoke Gaelic in 1881, although that had dropped to 4% by 1911.
Mr Duwe's research suggests that the vast majority of these speakers were native-born Caithness Gaels - not refugees from the Sutherland clearances.
Available data from the 1891 census, previously published by Mr Duwe, shows that "speakers enumerated in Caithness were overwhelmingly born and raised in the county".
Of 2,079 speakers in Latheron at that time, 1,813 (87.2%) were native Caithnessians.
The figures seem to support much earlier writings which suggest that in the 18th Century large parts of Caithness - including Wick, Halkirk and Reay - were predominately Gaelic.
In 1707 a presbytery reported to the General Assembly Committee for the Highland Libraries that "there are seven parishes in Caithness, where the Irish (Gaelic) language is used, viz. Thurso, Halkirg, Rhae, Lathrone, Ffar, Week, Duirness."

To deny this seems to me to be idiotic!:confused

[oldmarine]

Aaldtimer: What you request sounds reasonable. I would not deny your request if there are enough people who would be interested in reading that history.

[John Little]

I cannot see that anyone has denied that a certain proportion of the early modern population of Caithness were Gaelic speakers.

In the same way a certain proportion of modern Caithnessians will be Urdu speakers. This however, does not mean that Caithness was ever an 'Urdu area' in the sense that it was ruled by Urdu speakers, had an Urdu culture or an Urdu way of life.

It merely means that some Urdu speakers have, in the same way that much of Caithness's shifting population have done, moved into the area.

Historically, setting aside your early modern migration, I have found no evidence from Ancient, Early Mediaeval or Late Mediaeval periods that Caithness was a "Gaelic area". Admittedly I am confined to the internet for this but what I read tells me the contrary - that it was not a Gaelic area and that the Gaels were prevented from annexing the area by the indigenous population waging war upon them.

I looked at a number of places but I started with this Wiki which I found very interesting, and followed links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dál_Riata



I would be very interested to see your evidence otherwise.

This page also says that the Picts were defeated - but not by the Gaels- but by the Danes; this fits in with what I have always thought.


The Presbytery report means that the Gaelic language is used in those parishes named. It does not say by how many people.

[John Little]

M'Dear Little:

Hate to chip in here, but being a Citizen of the United Kingdom has already assured you First Prize in the Lottery of life, and thus I cannot think why for the life of me you would wish to seek solace as a member of the Cetaceans. I am told they are an ill-bred people with amazingly vile habits, and we are exceedingly lucky that not many of them manage to straddle Theresa May's iron-clad borders to set up home in our heartlands. I'm by no means xenophobic, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Cetaceans indulge in orgies, play loud music, are utterly work-shy, and hang around in Plankton Bars, smoking seaweed, and swearing incessantly before returning home to beat up their wives. An utter shower!

When I stopped laughing I decided that you were confusing me with the inhabitants of Castletown if I am to judge by recent posts on the Org...

[ducati]

The good news is that the Garlic language is as good as dead already. Its pseudo-Gael supporters have been rumbled and the hatred of Garlic amongst ordinary people is growing by the day. Arthur Peanut must be turning in the grave of his political life. As usual the Dundeenian can't support his stance as gleeber and the crustacean have already demonstrated.

Why is that good news and why would people hate Gaelic?

[Humerous Vegetable]

Ah - It seems a reasonable assumption that if a guide was asked the name of a particular feature, then the answer would depend entirely on whether the reply came from a Gaelic or a Scots speaker.

So just because a place name is Gaelic does not mean that it was so before the making of the map.

Yes, locals might have been indulging in a bit of mischief..... http://www.halexandria.org/dward033.htm Maybe what land surveyors were actually being told, when asking for the name of a place in Caithness was "Who cares"? or "Take yourself back off to London, you prat"

[John Little]

I had a wee laugh at that site - but it makes the point well.

I'm no speaker of Gaelic or expert on place-names - but how much of an expert do you have to be for things like 'big hill' or 'big loch'?


There's another aspect to consider also.

The historic kingdom of Picts was a Celtic kingdom; or so I thought until I read that there's a lot of debate about it.

Their language may be extinct but it's possible that it was related to Gaelic in the same way that Welsh is related to Cornish or Breton.

How possible is it that place-names that are taken as 'Gaelic' actually derive from the Pictish language?


It seems to be that there is a lot of eagerness to interpret things as 'Gaelic' which may not be Gaelic at all.

[John Little]

I mean there appears to be so much uncertainty about the whole thing that I really fail completely to see any case at all for Caithness being a Gaelic area beyond incomers in the early modern period;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_language

After the Danes defeated the Picts, the Picts and the Gaels appear to have made common cause against the Danes, and eventually merged into the Kingdom of Alba, part Gaelic, part Pictish, but by that time, Caithness was Norse and Scotland evolved its own speech...




I'm putting a little addendum here because I have tracked down Kurt Duwe's article and read it – there’s usually a great gap between the way one party interprets stuff, and this is a case in point. Kurt Duwe wrote an article about Gaelic in Caithness, and on the one part this is taken to support the idea of bi-lingualism in Caithness. On the other hand, if you read his article a different picture emerges.

Mr Duwe’s sources are from the 18th century onwards. He does not look at the mediaeval period but states that Sutherland and Eastern Caithness were predominantly Gaelic speaking – but he does not say how the Gaels got there. But there are a few allusions which give clues.

“The eastern part of Gallaibh (Caithness) has still a very strong Norse tradition and the Gàidhlig lan- guage there had no foothold whatsoever during the past centuries. This was especially the case in the parishes of Bower, Canisbay and Olrig” (page 4)

is interesting – no?

http://www.linguae-celticae.org/dateien/Gaidhlig_Local_Studies_Vol_22_Cataibh_an_Ear_Ed_II .pdf

[John Little]

On the other hand places like Latheron and Wick have a bi-lingual population in the 19th century.

How did this happen? Herring migrants?

Duwe sees Eastern Caithness as being populated by people who speak the general language of Scotland – whom he terms lowlanders, so the non-Gaelic population of Caithness are ‘lowlanders’ to him. Guess some might disagree…

Events at Dunnet give a clue as to where the Gaelic speakers might have come from;

“The co-existence of Lowlanders and Gaels did not work well, however, everywhere all the time. The ac- count concerning Dunaid (Dunnet) makes interesting reading: “... and the great increase of population in
1821, was produced chiefly by about 300 Highlanders from Assynt and Strathnaver, who had been removed from their possessions by the introduction of sheep-farming, and came to this parish. The greater part of them had removed before 1831. Their habits not being adapted to an industrious life, they soon got in arrears with the landlord, and went off, some to the Highlands, others to America ... The English language only is spoken by the original inhabitants. The few Highlanders remaining still partly retain the Gaelic. The children all speak Eng- lish, and that much better than in the southern counties.” (page 6)

So certainly this area was temporarily Gaelic ….

As to the Eastern part;

“Most of the inhabitants of Caithness considered (and still consider) themselves as “Lowland Scots” hav- ing really nothing in common with “Highland” i.e. Gàidhlig speaking tradition. The Gàidhlig language of course has never been (or reportedly has never been) spoken to a considerable extent east of a line drawn from Baile Theòrsa (Thurso) to Inbhir Uige (Wick). But the language frontier divided the county into a Gàidhlig speaking area in the west and a Lowland Scots speaking (formerly Norse speaking) part to the east.”

Mr Duwe’s report is interesting in what it does not say- even more so than what it does. To state that a good percentage of Western Caithness had Gaelic speakers according to 19th century censuses is true. But it begs the question of how those Gaelic speakers – and their ancestors got there. Certainly not by historical conquest.

If it is as a result of forced 18th and 19th century resettlement- does it make Western Caithness a ‘Gaelic’ area?

Or a Scots area with an influx of incomers?

And if settling Gaelic speakers at Dunnet failed, does that mean that Dunnet should be regarded as historically a Gaelic speaking area because hundreds of Gaels once lived there because they were forced to?

And the taking of a census for the UK dates only from 1801.

What would be really impressive would be some research to reveal what the population of Caithness was speaking in the 17th century and before.

Whatever else, the spending of thousands of pounds on bilingual road signs in the east of Caithness would, imho, be better spent on classroom assistants, roadworks or nurses in Wick Hospital.

Furthermore it would be a good thing if Mr Duwe's article were circulated in full to the members of Highland Council so that they may consider again what they did when they outvoted the Caithness members.

They might bear in mind the tyranny of the majority...

[crayola]

Kurt is more biased towards the Gaelic than our own Garlic lovers. He's ok with historical data but his opinions are not worthy of our attention. It's not hard to dig out the information that John has uncovered. You already know more about the history of the Cattachs in Caithness in the 19th century than most Gollachs know. :)

[Humerous Vegetable]

I found this link today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm which I thought was quite apposite to this thread. John, I miss your postings.

[Rheghead]

At its peak in the 1880s 8.8% could speak Gaelic (which included 'migrant' workers in the herring industry I would presume).

On that precedent there is definitely a case in modern times to have all signs in the county written in Polish as well as English.

And what proportion were migrant workers? A dozen? We'd need a proper breakdown of the figures but as it stands 8.8% could speak Gaelic.

[hopper.65]

From the information i have gathered from books on the North of Scotland the Gaelic language stopped around Reay and the rest of Caithness and Eastern Sutherland residents all spoke English!