View Full Version : alternative to religious observance in schools?
Would you choose an alternative non-religious educational subject (in which the children and teacher would talk about ethics) as an alternative for RO (religious observance & chaplain visits & church visits) for your children at school, if it would be available?
Just to be clear, I am not talking about the subject RE or RME (religious and moral education), as in general I feel that learning about religions is beneficial to kids, and the curriculum of excellence's guidelines for this subject are ok (of course all depends on the teacher). However, I do not think it is appropriate for children who do not practise Christianity at home to be asked to 'talk to god' on a regular basis at school. Although I do not feel it would 'harm' them, I also feel that, as we are all paying for our children's education (!), I personally would like an alternative that has more educational value for my child.
I was raised and educated without practising religion myself and strongly feel that non-religious people (or those not practising religion) can have equally strong moral ideas and values.
I was very surprised to find that my daughter cannot get any alternative to religious education at school here. Although everyone is entitled to take their child out of these classes, there is no alternative (though the law says these children are entitled to an alternative educational activity!).
So my question is, if there would be an alternative, would you take it? Would you like to see an alternative at the schools?
In no way am I against religion, and I do understand that christians like their children to have some christian education at schools. However I also feel that it is not necessary beneficial to the christian community or anyone else to have many of the children yawning at RO, as they do not practise christianity at home and are not interested. So in a way, providing an alternative may be beneficial to the religious observance as well.
Where I grew up we did have a wonderful alternative subject, called 'moral philosophy', it was very interesting, and mainly encouraged children to think about all kinds of subject, every opinion was respected (religious opinions as well!) and thus we were encouraged to speak our mind, make our own opinion, think about values, and listen to and value other opinions. We discussed many ethical subjects (e.g. poverty in the world, human rights, animal rights, death penalty, pollution, euthanasia, different cultures, genetic modification...). Of course for primary school this could be more simply about helping others, friendship, being honest, impact of your actions...
I know that many of these subjects are talked about at school already, but still I feel it would be appropriate to have a similar subject as an alternative to religious observance.
I am not talking of a school subject 'for atheists' (!), I am talking of a school subject that is suitable for people of any belief.
I would like to know if there are more people who feel this way, as I find it very strange that so many non-religious people find it perfectly normal for their children to be asked to talk to god at school on a regular base.
I would appreciate it to get as many people answering the poll as possible. And if you are not a christian yourself (or don't practise religion), but would NOT choose an alternative to religious observance for your children if it would be available, please could you explain why so I can understand the situation better?
I know that right now there is only a tiny minority who take their children out of RO, which I find a bit strange as I do know that many people do not practise religion at home.
Bobinovich
18-Mar-12, 11:05
Great post Buzzard, and a sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with. I have long felt that religion has no place in Primary education excepting the general introduction of the many different types. Your idea of a 'moral masterclass' is far better and, in my opinion, would go a lot further to promoting tolerance, understanding, respect & acceptance among children. I'd go as far as to say it should be continued on into High School discussing such ethical issues as you've outlined above instead of RE - I'm sure it would be far more beneficial to our youngsters, and would give them an interest in current world events.
I'd fervently hope that having open discussions on these kinds of subjects might reduce bullying from a young age, thus making it less prevalent as children get older, but as a lot of the bullying mentality is due to attitudes in the home environment we'd probably need a few generations of such teaching before it it filtered through at all levels.
As far as I'm aware there is no compulsory religious observance in schools so long as you request it. What alternative is required? Compulsory atheism? The idea appalls me to the core as much as compulsory religious observance.
As far as I'm aware there is no compulsory religious observance in schools so long as you request it.
That's the problem, as far as I know... There is no choice given, you have to actively request it, something a lot of parents are either unaware of or have little interest in what happens at school other than that their children attend....
When the child starts school the parent should be given the option to opt in rather than the current system where there is an option to opt out but only if they pro-actively request it....
Though my personal opinion is that any form of religious indoctrination has no place in school, even indoctrination at home is wrong... Fine make them aware of the various religions out there so that if once they are adults they want to follow a religion that is made through an informed choice & not because they where brainwashed at a vulnerable point in their life where they are most susceptible to brainwashing, ie. Childhood
Rheghead, you clearly did not read my post, I am not suggesting to get rid of RO, just to give those who want it an alternative education while the christians have RO. As I pointed out this education would not have anything to do with atheism or with promoting atheism... Religious observance may not be compulsory at schools but pupils and parents seem te be under some pressure to join in. No alternative education is given if you opt out.
Rheghead, you clearly did not read my post, I am not suggesting to get rid of RO, just to give those who want it an alternative education while the christians have RO. As I pointed out this education would not have anything to do with atheism or with promoting atheism... Religious observance may not be compulsory at schools but pupils and parents seem te be under some pressure to join in. No alternative education is given if you opt out.
Oh, after a lifetime of agonising over this issue, I think I fully understand it.
It is an interesting topic for discussion. As a parish minister acting as chaplain in a Primary School I have read the posts with interest. I cannot speak for the schools in Caithness because I have had only one experience leading religious observance at the end of term assembly. So I do not know what the normal practise is in the county.
However, in the school where I attend assembly about once a month, the religious observance which you assume to be happening really isn't. It is not an hour of unsingable hymns, Bible readings, prayers and sermons. We have multiple faiths in the community and all of those children attend with enthusiasm. The songs are chosen from the regular selection of school songs familiar to all the students. We talk about everything in our conversations within the Assembly. I've never known a child to yawn or be bored. Last year about this time I used the materials prepared by a UK conservation group in the lead up to Earth Hour. The two major Christian festivals of Christmas and Easter are organized by the teaching staff and I participate under their direction.
I'm not trying to suggest that children be denied an alternative to religious observance. Yet, I think that parents should know what it is that they are asking to be alternated from.
Back in 1962, 1st period was Mr. Sutherland..(CHOPS) for latin at thurso high. We stood up, with the desk lids up, and recited the lord's Prayer en masse. It didn't hurt me any, and in some ways was a reminder of things other than the mundane.....Anyone confident in their beliefs, be they agnostic, anti-christian, or deeply religious, should have no qualms with this type of happening, the violently antis have much bigger problems if they quail at that practice...my ex-wife and I used to describe ourselves, jokingly, to friends as 'happy pagans'...yes we were married in church, and both ourkids were christened, we never shoved religion down their throats, nor did we decry it, and both kids are normal, tolerant people, with no axes to grind....lotta bunk all this furore, a storm in a teacup, no less......anyway, that's my two penn'orth, for what its worth.
I dont see the issue with a few prayers or songs or thoughts for other people. Nor do I see a problem with children being taught about Christmas and Easter and other religious festivals. Removing your child from assemblies may set them up for ridicule or make them feel different and cause them more hassle in the long run than explaining why you dont beleive, allowing them to participate and having a sensible discussion around the dinner table about it.
I don't like the idea of RO in schools at all. I see no need for it. End of term assemblies etc can just as easily be carried out with singing/choirs and presentations of a non-religious nature.
And although I would support the replacement of RE with a purely moral education type class, it pains me that whenever there is a debate on moral issues the religious leaders are somehow elevated to positions of "experts".
Would you choose an alternative non-religious educational subject (in which the children and teacher would talk about ethics) as an alternative for RO (religious observance & chaplain visits & church visits) for your children at school, if it would be available?
Just to be clear, I am not talking about the subject RE or RME (religious and moral education), as in general I feel that learning about religions is beneficial to kids, and the curriculum of excellence's guidelines for this subject are ok (of course all depends on the teacher). However, I do not think it is appropriate for children who do not practise Christianity at home to be asked to 'talk to god' on a regular basis at school. Although I do not feel it would 'harm' them, I also feel that, as we are all paying for our children's education (!), I personally would like an alternative that has more educational value for my child.
I was raised and educated without practising religion myself and strongly feel that non-religious people (or those not practising religion) can have equally strong moral ideas and values.
I was very surprised to find that my daughter cannot get any alternative to religious education at school here. Although everyone is entitled to take their child out of these classes, there is no alternative (though the law says these children are entitled to an alternative educational activity!).
So my question is, if there would be an alternative, would you take it? Would you like to see an alternative at the schools?
In no way am I against religion, and I do understand that christians like their children to have some christian education at schools. However I also feel that it is not necessary beneficial to the christian community or anyone else to have many of the children yawning at RO, as they do not practise christianity at home and are not interested. So in a way, providing an alternative may be beneficial to the religious observance as well.
Where I grew up we did have a wonderful alternative subject, called 'moral philosophy', it was very interesting, and mainly encouraged children to think about all kinds of subject, every opinion was respected (religious opinions as well!) and thus we were encouraged to speak our mind, make our own opinion, think about values, and listen to and value other opinions. We discussed many ethical subjects (e.g. poverty in the world, human rights, animal rights, death penalty, pollution, euthanasia, different cultures, genetic modification...). Of course for primary school this could be more simply about helping others, friendship, being honest, impact of your actions...
I know that many of these subjects are talked about at school already, but still I feel it would be appropriate to have a similar subject as an alternative to religious observance.
I am not talking of a school subject 'for atheists' (!), I am talking of a school subject that is suitable for people of any belief.
I would like to know if there are more people who feel this way, as I find it very strange that so many non-religious people find it perfectly normal for their children to be asked to talk to god at school on a regular base.
I would appreciate it to get as many people answering the poll as possible. And if you are not a christian yourself (or don't practise religion), but would NOT choose an alternative to religious observance for your children if it would be available, please could you explain why so I can understand the situation better?
I know that right now there is only a tiny minority who take their children out of RO, which I find a bit strange as I do know that many people do not practise religion at home.
Anyone who reads a post that long is a crank like you. Their opinion would be worthless.
Interesting and thought provoking.
I am long past the school age and although when there we did have assemblies, we also had current affairs which also encompassed comparative religion which gave us a chance to understand the minority groups that were students at the school and also taught us to be tolerant.
I feel that in todays society it is even more important whether or not one practises a religion that one should be aware of others and their beliefs and taught to respect them.
I do how ever feel that religion of what ever denomination should not be mandatory within the frame work of schooling, it should be left to the individual to determine for themselves what they choose to believe.
I do how ever feel that religion of what ever denomination should not be mandatory within the frame work of schooling, it should be left to the individual to determine for themselves what they choose to believe.
I agree.
It should be like being in the choir, the orchestra, or the football team.
Something accepted, even encouraged, but by no means compulsary.
Removing your child from assemblies may set them up for ridicule or make them feel different and cause them more hassle in the long run
And this is exactly the problem, that needs to be solved. It is not right that children should be put in such a position if they do not believe in God or are of a different religion and their parents choose to opt them out. I personally do not believe in 'just going along' with things that I don't believe in. I am a person with an opinion and so is my child. How would you feel if it would be a different religion being practised at the schools? Islam? If this idea would make you feel uncomfortable, than please understand that RO may make some people feel uncomfortable as well.There are people who would like an alternative but who will not speak their mind because they feel that 'the community' or 'some teachers' may turn against them, or because they fear their child may get bullied or disadvantaged. As I wrote above I feel that in practise people are certainly 'discouraged' (by the schools) to opt out of RO. And not providing any alternative is certainly the easiest way to discourage people.
In this day and age, lots of people do not practise religion at home and I'm sure if anyone would suggest having regular church visits or chaplain visits or prayers for everyone in the workplace, there would be a huge objection. So why should it be considered 'normal' for our children to have all this? I feel that the school system should go with the times in this matter. It's 2012! Everyone parent should have a choice.
What you write illustrates my point perfectly: it is SO necessary for children to learn that people with other opinions/religions can be friends as well, to promote tolerance and DIVERSITY. There are always children who feel different, for one reason or another, they should be confident to be themselves, not be pushed into trying to be what they are not.
David Banks
19-Mar-12, 09:08
Back in 1962, 1st period was Mr. Sutherland..(CHOPS) for latin at thurso high. We stood up, with the desk lids up, and recited the lord's Prayer en masse.
It is most pleasant to see of another CHOPS latin student - mine was in 1959 as I remember it. My memory of religious exercises was a 10-15 minute assembly at 9 o'clock (catholics were excused), but I cannot remember if it was every day or just once a week. And I do not recall the lord's prayer in classrooms (except from Crossroads primary).
Anybody else's memory working better than mine?
Now, I would see the teaching of ethics and morality without reference to religious or atheist points of view could be a valuable discussion - but I'm no teacher.
However, in the school where I attend assembly about once a month, the religious observance which you assume to be happening really isn't. It is not an hour of unsingable hymns, Bible readings, prayers and sermons. We have multiple faiths in the community and all of those children attend with enthusiasm. The songs are chosen from the regular selection of school songs familiar to all the students. We talk about everything in our conversations within the Assembly. I've never known a child to yawn or be bored.
Canuck, thank you for your input, I do appreciate it and honestly do have a lot of respect for what you do with the children and that you manage to keep it interesting and fun for all children, all faiths. Yes I agree there is a lot of difference between schools and areas. I feel that in this area, there is a lot of (or more than average anyway) religious influence at schools, and in general less cultural diversity. Anyway, reading your description of religious observance, it does make me wonder why a minister needs to come into it at all? If it's not 'really' religious observance, and just songs from the regular section of school songs and some good talks with the children, why couldn't a teacher do it?
Canuck, thank you for your input, I do appreciate it and honestly do have a lot of respect for what you do with the children and that you manage to keep it interesting and fun for all children, all faiths. Yes I agree there is a lot of difference between schools and areas. I feel that in this area, there is a lot of (or more than average anyway) religious influence at schools, and in general less cultural diversity. Anyway, reading your description of religious observance, it does make me wonder why a minister needs to come into it at all? If it's not 'really' religious observance, and just songs from the regular section of school songs and some good talks with the children, why couldn't a teacher do it?
There is less cultural diversity in the county without a doubt. However the key to this for me is whether RO does harm or not. I am not a practicing Christian - The Bruce is a completely anti religion lapsed Catholic however I still like the children to understand the tenets of the Christian faith, to know that Christmas is celebrated because of the birth of Jesus and Easter because of his death and that some people dont celebrate these because they do not beleive. Anything that shjows that there is a deeper meaning than random consumerism cant be a bad thing. For me the RO they get at school is about thinking of others and about a basic knowledge of something they may want to explore later in their lives. The christian ethos in schools supports the moral teaching I do at home and anything which does that is ok in my book.
Being picked on by your peers is not about religious intolerence from their schoolmates, its about being different and it wouldnt matter what it is - I guess its up to the child whether they feel strongly or not about it - that shouldnt be about whether they are bored or cant be bothered either - there are always parts of work, life, that we cant opt out of and have to tolerate even though we might not agree with them. It might be a good lesson . Have you sat in at an assembly? If not then it might be a suggestion to do so. Joining the School board and working to introduce alternatives may also be a good way of encouraging diversity by inviting people of other faiths or humanists or just having an assemly run by a refugee from another culture or someone reformed from a life of crime.
As for whether i would feel uncomfortable if my child was attending a school where Islam was being taught - i can only assume i would have picked the school regardless of that and so would be ok with it. My sister lives in France and when she moved there her eldest daughter was 8. In France religion isnt taught in state school but in many villages there are also "private schools" where catholicism is taught and children have a religious assembly and are prepared for their first commuinion. You pay for these and I think it is around £10 per term. My sister and her husband are pretty much like me so they gave their daughter the choice. She chose the private school after visiting both of them. She is now 12 and hasnt converted to Catholisism, taken her first communion or decided to be a nun. Her younger sister has attended the same school and although she is fond of asking Jesus for help - especially when she cant find her barbie doll or its raining and they are supposed to be going somewhere nice - she isnt showing signs of wanting to go to church or become a Catholic. If however she did I think that would be ok too.
to know that Christmas is celebrated because of the birth of Jesus
Actually a Pagan festival pre-dating Christianity & hijacked by the Christians for their own ends, so that would have to be taught as well.
Thats fine, we are taking part in a Beltane Festival at Banff Castle* this year and there is also going to be one for semaine(sp?) these things are all part of our history and culture. *join us if you like... Fire poi and local live music a bar and all sorts of other stuff.
Nick Noble
19-Mar-12, 16:34
Religious observance is not an educational activity, and therefore why would an educational activity be offered. Certainly you have the right to have your child withdrawn from any religious activity, but as that is only likely to take a few minutes of any school assembly etc there is not a lot a school could offer in the time slot used. At best I would suggest you could maybe ask for suitable reading materials to be made available on moral philosophy or whatever. I would think that the rest of any assembly of which RO forms a part is something that any child probably should attend, withdrawal should only occur for the part to which you or the child have objection. The school should arrange this in a non intrusive way, perhaps arrange for all children not attending the RO part to assemble elsewhere for the time required, and then enter at the rear of the assembly so they do not become the centre of attention. If the school will not make suitable arrangements then matters should be escalated to the local authority education department.
As you rightly point out Religious Education as an educational activity in all it's guises is a seperate issue and one which I am very happy for my children to study.
As an aethiest I am totally happy for my children to attend any religious activity they choose, or none. There are far more pernicious ways of inculcating religious belief in children in schools. Did you by any chance receive the "innocent" advent calendar at Christmas - if you did and still have it take a proper look, full of fundamentalist Christianity, anti-evolutionary propoganda!
Religious observance is not an educational activity
Isn't that what school is for... Education...
So why bother with it in the first place?
Nick Noble
19-Mar-12, 18:31
Isn't that what school is for... Education...
So why bother with it in the first place?
I've no idea why they have religious observance in schools, and would prefer they did not. However it also has to be said that school is about far more than just education...
I've no idea why they have religious observance in schools, and would prefer they did not. However it also has to be said that school is about far more than just education...
True... But... I'm sure disinformation should be well out of the remit of any school.
oldmarine
19-Mar-12, 20:20
Observing religion in schools. Appears to me that could be a difficult choice. There are so many religion choices. Even in the Christian church beliefs there are too many to observe. I personally believe observing religious beliefs could be better done in the home. Some of my children have been taught in public schools and some have been taught in Christian (Lutheran) schools. My observation is that the best place to teach your children to observe religious beliefs is in the privacy of one's home. That is my personal opinion.
Ballymore
22-Mar-12, 17:54
My son (P7) complains to me that the RE teacher concentrates mainly on Christianity and God. He feels that this is some type of indoctrination and asks why does the teacher assume that all in the class belive in God? I have made him aware of the umpteen religions out there and when he feels he is ready it is his choice to choose if he does or does not want to follow a specific religion. I do not want my son to walk out there with blinkers, I want him to be open minded and respect peoples choices though he does not have to agree with them.
Unfortunately, I do get the impression that RO is seen as an educational activity at school.
In case anyone is interested, these are the Scottish guidelines for RO:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/03/20778/53820
I do think many schools do fail on these:
Parental Right to withdraw
There is a statutory provision for parents to withdraw children from participation in religious observance. This right should always be made known to parents and their wishes respected. Parents should be provided with sufficient information on which to base a decision.
Where a child is withdrawn from religious observance, schools should make suitable arrangements for the child to participate in a worthwhile alternative activity. In no circumstances should a child be disadvantaged as a result of withdrawing from religious observance.
In my case I did withdraw my child (primary school) from RO, but now in the last few weeks the school has started asking her in the morning if she would like to 'stay in the classroom on her own or go to assembly?'. So it's obvious what she's been choosing. So they are letting her attend RO, against my wish. Yes, of course I could take this up with the school (and may do so in the future), but if my child prefers to go to assembly with the other kids to staying alone...that's perfectly normal...
I agree with most of you, my child is also free to choose to follow any religion if she would like to. However I do feel that it is wrong for the school to put any type of pressure on her to attend christian RO, as clearly she does not want to go to assembly because she wants to attend the RO, but because she does not want to be left in the classroom!
And this is the whole problem in the system. First of all, parents are not told that they have the option to withdraw. And furthermore, schools try to make it an unappealing option.
That's one of the reasons why I placed this poll. As squidge points out I could go to the school and try to introduce alternatives or get some other speakers in etc. But what is the point if I am the only person who opts their child out?
Schools should be made aware that there are many people out here who would prefer an alternative to RO for their children. And that for me is a good enough reason to opt my child out of RO. By discouraging people to opt out, they manage to keep most pupils in RO, so they do not have to provide a good alternative...easy...
Nick, no I did not receive the advent calendar, but it does illustrate the influence of the church in the schools. You also point out that there may not be enough time to provide an alternative activity, but I do think there would be enough time to do something meaningful. In my child's school there are quite a few church services each year and even the time the chaplain speaks in assembly could be used e.g. to have a short discussion about some news topics...
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