View Full Version : Bring back the Birch!!!
These two should get a dose of the Birch I would say, what they did was pure evil!!!
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/teenage-girls-charged-after-baby-hurt-by-drawing-pins-1-2167904
These two should get a dose of the Birch I would say, what they did was pure evil!!!
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/teenage-girls-charged-after-baby-hurt-by-drawing-pins-1-2167904
So you would punish bad behaviour with more bad behaviour eventually leading to tougher criminals. Also 'pure evil', evidentially these two are up there with genocidal dictators.
I'm with Golach on this one. Jeez what is the world coming to? Be interested to see what kind of upbringing these two have had [disgust]
So you would punish bad behaviour with more bad behaviour eventually leading to tougher criminals. Also 'pure evil', evidentially these two are up there with genocidal dictators.
All persons who were dealt with by the birch did not all turn out bad, My own father in law got 5 strokes of the birch aged 11 in the 1930's for stealing, he never stole another thing in his life! And never became a career criminal, I got the Lochgelly Tawes a few times at school, it never turned me into a tough criminal.
bluemafia
12-Mar-12, 15:56
YES and no doubt you'll be rewarding them with a holiday in Disneyland - muppet!QUOTE=RecQuery;935566]So you would punish bad behaviour with more bad behaviour eventually leading to tougher criminals. Also 'pure evil', evidentially these two are up there with genocidal dictators.[/QUOTE]
All persons who were dealt with by the birch did not all turn out bad, My own father in law got 5 strokes of the birch aged 11 in the 1930's for stealing, he never stole another thing in his life! And never became a career criminal, I got the Lochgelly Tawes a few times at school, it never turned me into a tough criminal.
Thank you for your personal and anecdotal story, unfortunately the vast body of evidence disagrees with you. I'm sorry the world doesn't work the way you think it should.
YES and no doubt you'll be rewarding them with a holiday in Disneyland - muppet!
So because I disagree with you, you insult me. I'm actually very right-wing when it comes to crime.
These two should get a dose of the Birch I would say, what they did was pure evil!!!
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/teenage-girls-charged-after-baby-hurt-by-drawing-pins-1-2167904
Wishful thinking unfortunately golach. There will be background social work reports, interviews with members of the chidrens' panel, a couple of interviews with child/educational psychologists and a lot of 'input' by all sorts of costly 'professionals' - Ker-ching! Then there will be some wringing of hands, some debate and a possible decision to give them some sort of supervision order etc. - Ker-ching! I doubt very much whether they will get any real punishment, after all the judicial system is not so much about justice but about creating growth to employ all these 'professionals'.
Meanwhile the parent of the victim will get handed a tube of cream costing £1.99 and told to go away and rub it better.
Thank you for your personal and anecdotal story, unfortunately the vast body of evidence disagrees with you. I'm sorry the world doesn't work the way you think it should.
So because I disagree with you, you insult me. I'm actually very right-wing when it comes to crime.
While I might not go as far as to use the birch there has to be a better way than there is at the moment - what do you propose RecQuery?
The way the present system works the victim gets brushed aside while the judicial system goes to extraordinary lengths to prevent these miscreants becoming 'labelled'. An army of people backed by the liberal do-gooder lobby go out of their way to help/support/advise the ne’r-do-wells, effectively making them appear to be victims. This in turn excuses their bad behaviour and perpetuates their belief that they have no obligation to behave responsiblity.
While I might not go as far as to use the birch there has to be a better way than there is at the moment - what do you propose RecQuery?
The way the present system works the victim gets brushed aside while the judicial system goes to extraordinary lengths to prevent these miscreants becoming 'labelled'. An army of people backed by the liberal do-gooder lobby go out of their way to help/support/advise the ne’r-do-wells, effectively making them appear to be victims. This in turn excuses their bad behaviour and perpetuates their belief that they have no obligation to behave responsiblity.
There is a balance that needs to be sought, but as usual reasonable people on both sides are drowned out by the extremists. I think justice should be logical, cold, calculating and impartial. That means that victims, emotional families and media hysteria can not dictate the debate. We should do what France does and ban stuff like this from the media until someone is convicted. Within reason everyone should have a second chance but some do take this too far.
Now this one does deserve the Birch (and a whole lot more)!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-17343409
C3...............[disgust][disgust]
billmoseley
12-Mar-12, 19:50
Now this one does deserve the Birch (and a whole lot more)!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-17343409
C3...............[disgust][disgust] deport him if he has no respect for these soldiers who died on active service for HIS country then he does not deserve to live here
Justice - particularly for the victims of young offenders should be restorative wherever possible. The offender should be meeting with victims and being made to face up and take responsibility for their offences. Where young people are damaged or have little or no understanding of the affects of their actions it can be extremely effective and is more likely to ensure that young people dont reoffend than either the birch or locking them up and whilst its not for everyone it can be effective.
Justice - particularly for the young offender should be restorative wherever possible.
Justice!! Squidge???, Don't tell me you will be saying that Teenagers have rights also, I respected the teacher that could swing the Lochgelly Tawes far more than the teacher that wagged a finger at me.
linnie612
12-Mar-12, 23:30
deport him if he has no respect for these soldiers who died on active service for HIS country then he does not deserve to live here
He is from Yorkshire!
If the offenders have reached that age without feeling any responsabilty for their actions then I doubt they will ever comprehend that some standards of behaviour are just not acceptable and no punishment or councilling will assist them.
Justice!! Squidge???, Don't tell me you will be saying that Teenagers have rights also, I respected the teacher that could swing the Lochgelly Tawes far more than the teacher that wagged a finger at me.
Golach EVERYONE has rights - even teenagers and I am glad to be British and live in a country where everyone does have rights but along with rights come responsibility and restorative justice Golach is about making offenders take responsibility for their actions. A kid smashes a car up and he is made to face up to the person whose car it is and understand the distress and inconvenience it has caused the victim. Sometimes it may be a violent crime and it can take guts on the part of the victim to face the offender but it can be very effective at preventing further offending. Surely we all want crime to fall and we dont want young people to drift into repeat offending costing the country money and wasting their lives and damaging other people's lives.
Im not biting the bait to argue with you about the lochgelly tawse and the birch ( Oh golly it looks like I am) and Im not making apologies for criminals but you know what - your way golach doesnt work. It might have worked for you but then you had a disciplined and secure upbringing not a chaotic lack of childhood, moved from pillar to post or kept in a shed cos your dads girlfriend didnt like you with the only physical contact you had being a slap or a kick. Open your eyes. Kids learn what they see - You learned from your environment and children today learn from theirs. What effect would a birching have on a kid who is beaten evey week? Whilst no means all offending kids come from difficult homes many do and whilst I do NOT excuse their behaviour I do have a desire to change it not make it worse. There is a place for locking up young offenders and a need to do so but we HAVE to try to break their cycle of offending - surely we want every child to be the best he or she can be. I think we are failing many and I dont think your tawse or big stick would change that
If the offenders have reached that age without feeling any responsabilty for their actions then I doubt they will ever comprehend that some standards of behaviour are just not acceptable and no punishment or councilling will assist them.
I cant beleive that Lizz.. You see many many stories of people who have done really really terrible things and led deeply criminal lives and change and go on to live productive socially responsible lives. And surely surely surely we are not going to roll our eyes and give up on a person at 16?
Golach EVERYONE has rights - even teenagers and I am glad to be British and live in a country where everyone does have rights but along with rights come responsibility and restorative justice Golach is about making offenders take responsibility for their actions. A kid smashes a car up and he is made to face up to the person whose car it is and understand the distress and inconvenience it has caused the victim. Sometimes it may be a violent crime and it can take guts on the part of the victim to face the offender but it can be very effective at preventing further offending. Surely we all want crime to fall and we dont want young people to drift into repeat offending costing the country money and wasting their lives and damaging other people's lives.
Im not biting the bait to argue with you about the lochgelly tawse and the birch ( Oh golly it looks like I am) and Im not making apologies for criminals but you know what - your way golach doesnt work. It might have worked for you but then you had a disciplined and secure upbringing not a chaotic lack of childhood, moved from pillar to post or kept in a shed cos your dads girlfriend didnt like you with the only physical contact you had being a slap or a kick. Open your eyes. Kids learn what they see - You learned from your environment and children today learn from theirs. What effect would a birching have on a kid who is beaten evey week? Whilst no means all offending kids come from difficult homes many do and whilst I do NOT excuse their behaviour I do have a desire to change it not make it worse. There is a place for locking up young offenders and a need to do so but we HAVE to try to break their cycle of offending - surely we want every child to be the best he or she can be. I think we are failing many and I dont think your tawse or big stick would change that
From where I'm standing it looks as if squidge is making excuses for little thugs and wrong-doers, chaotic lack of childhood etc. At the same time spending money and resources 'helping' the perpetrators of crime. Well lots of people have had a less than perfect upbringing for all sorts of reasons, many of them don't resort to crime.
What about the victims squidge? If someone trashes my car I don't want to sit down for a friendly chat with them. I want them punished! I want them to pay for the damage they caused so my insurance doesn't have to and I want them no where near me while they are made to work to pay off the debt. Most criminals would quickly learn the error of their ways if they were put to work, forced labour if you like, until they paid for all the costs involved in the perpetration of their crime.
The insurance industry is built on the premise that the judicial system will not bother to recover the costs of loss or damage and so we all end up out of pocket.
oldmarine
13-Mar-12, 01:54
So you would punish bad behaviour with more bad behaviour eventually leading to tougher criminals. Also 'pure evil', evidentially these two are up there with genocidal dictators.
And you would turn them loose without any punishment so they could repeat their behavior again and again. That helps people to become worse criminals.
Metalattakk
13-Mar-12, 04:11
Jesus H., have the Daily Mail shut down their comments section or something?
Too many idiots with their idiotic opinions on here these days for me. Harlan Ellison is proved right, yet again.
Now this one does deserve the Birch (and a whole lot more)!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-17343409
C3...............[disgust][disgust]
I think the thought police are working overtime here.
Now this one does deserve the Birch (and a whole lot more)!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-17343409
C3...............[disgust][disgust]
The spokesman said: "He didn't make his point very well and that is why he has landed himself in bother."
I don't get it. How is not making your point very well grounds for arrest? Is there some kind of law against criticising the military? The only possible charge I can see here is some kind of defamation of character or something, implying that soldiers are rapists. But surely he can say that on Facebook without being arrested? Unfortunately the media will likely show him as the bad guy here, for daring to even criticise the military on the most prestigious of platforms, Facebook. I certainly don't see what's racially aggravated about it, anti-military, for sure, but not racial.
This is a very dangerous precedent. He should be allowed to express his views without being arrested! He was pointing out the fact that difference in reporting of the deaths of our armed forces compared with civilians in the areas our armed forces are patrolling. He's not the only person to have this view either. Treating the armed forces like heroes is not what a civilized society should do, citizens should be allowed to express their views so long as your not advocating murder of another. If we can't even truthfully comment on our own military then we're completely screwed as a nation.
From where I'm standing it looks as if squidge is making excuses for little thugs and wrong-doers, chaotic lack of childhood etc. .
Well there's a surprise - if you dont subscribe to the hang em and flog em brigade then you must be a woolly headed liberal wanting to slap people on the wrist and happy to let anarchy reign.:roll:
At the same time spending money and resources 'helping' the perpetrators of crime. Well lots of people have had a less than perfect upbringing for all sorts of reasons, many of them don't resort to crime..
And many of them do. Children in care are ten times more likely to be excluded from school, they are four times more likely to have a criminal record and more than 80% leave school with no qualifications. But thats by the by - spending money and resources on them at the start on "helping them" is surely money well spent because if you dont you may very well be spending money and resources ten years down the line feeding and keeping them in prison! Why wouldnt you want to prevent that? Why on earth would you write off a child without some effort to change things for them? Surely we want for every child what we want for our own? To be happy healthy and a productive member of society - if spending money on young offenders prevents them turning into hardened criminals and makes them more likely to get a job and grow into a productive member of society then its got to be worth a shot. Or dont we care what happens to anyone elses kids as long as ours are ok?
What about the victims squidge? If someone trashes my car I don't want to sit down for a friendly chat with them. I want them punished! .
Restorative justice puts the victim right at ther heart of the punishment and the process and thinking its a friendly chat just shows ignorance about the process and the reasoning behind it. For those of you who beleive in smacking your children or have been smacked as a child how many of you waited for the punishment meted out by your loving parents hoping that you would get a smacked bottom because then it was over and done with? How much harder was it to be forced to apologise to the child you hurt or made fun of, the shopkeeper you pinched sweetied from or the man whose window you broke? ITs far harder to confront the victim of your crime than a "friendly chat". And it can make a difference both to the victim and the offender.
I want them to pay for the damage they caused so my insurance doesn't have to and I want them no where near me while they are made to work to pay off the debt. Most criminals would quickly learn the error of their ways if they were put to work, forced labour if you like, until they paid for all the costs involved in the perpetration of their crime.
The insurance industry is built on the premise that the judicial system will not bother to recover the costs of loss or damage and so we all end up out of pocket.
Restorative justice is not an instead of it can be an as well as. And as far as the Insurance industry and our pockets are concerned if we can reduce reoffending then we are surely reducing costs of crime in the long term. Forced labour??? community payback schemes are in place and offer an option for an offender to make amends by doing community labour but many people dont want that either - they think its a soft option and a cop out. Well locking up teenagers, whether troubled, stupid or bad is just likely to lead to more offending and more costs and more costs and more costs. so what do we do? try to fix it before its completely broken or just let it fall apart and not care that it will be more expensive in the long run?
Well there's a surprise - if you dont subscribe to the hang em and flog em brigade then you must be a woolly headed liberal wanting to slap people on the wrist and happy to let anarchy reign.:roll:
Nowhere in any of my posts did I advocate flogging
And many of them do. Children in care are ten times more likely to be excluded from school, they are four times more likely to have a criminal record and more than 80% leave school with no qualifications. But thats by the by - spending money and resources on them at the start on "helping them" is surely money well spent because if you dont you may very well be spending money and resources ten years down the line feeding and keeping them in prison! Why wouldnt you want to prevent that? Why on earth would you write off a child without some effort to change things for them? Surely we want for every child what we want for our own? To be happy healthy and a productive member of society - if spending money on young offenders prevents them turning into hardened criminals and makes them more likely to get a job and grow into a productive member of society then its got to be worth a shot. Or dont we care what happens to anyone elses kids as long as ours are ok?
Please think carefully before you label children in care as potential criminals. The figures you quote are because the care system is failing, not because the children are established criminals. This debate is about criminality not care.
Restorative justice puts the victim right at ther heart of the punishment and the process and thinking its a friendly chat just shows ignorance about the process and the reasoning behind it. For those of you who beleive in smacking your children or have been smacked as a child how many of you waited for the punishment meted out by your loving parents hoping that you would get a smacked bottom because then it was over and done with? How much harder was it to be forced to apologise to the child you hurt or made fun of, the shopkeeper you pinched sweetied from or the man whose window you broke? ITs far harder to confront the victim of your crime than a "friendly chat". And it can make a difference both to the victim and the offender.
When I was a child I was rarely smacked but when I was I had to apologise as appropriate. I was punished with the tawse twice as a pupil and again apologised for my misbehaviour. Most young criminals know full well all their rights, having been briefed by their 'support' workers. Most victims are not aware of any rights they may have, and will not be able to afford the same level of support. Many seasoned young criminals know enough to make all the right noises at the appropriate time and appear contrite; then go on to repeat their offences.
Restorative justice is not an instead of it can be an as well as. And as far as the Insurance industry and our pockets are concerned if we can reduce reoffending then we are surely reducing costs of crime in the long term. Forced labour??? community payback schemes are in place and offer an option for an offender to make amends by doing community labour but many people dont want that either - they think its a soft option and a cop out. Well locking up teenagers, whether troubled, stupid or bad is just likely to lead to more offending and more costs and more costs and more costs. so what do we do? try to fix it before its completely broken or just let it fall apart and not care that it will be more expensive in the long run?
Community Payback schemes are fine and good but when liberal sycophants argue that this form of punishment is degrading and humiliating for the offenders it doesn't leave us much choice. At least by taking them out of society, either by locking them up or applying cufews, it will give the law-abiding majority a bit of respite.
Nowhere in any of my posts did I advocate flogging.
No you didnt but pthers on this thread did.
Please think carefully before you label children in care as potential criminals. The figures you quote are because the care system is failing, not because the children are established criminals. This debate is about criminality not care. .
Nowhere in any of my posts did I label children in care as potential criminals. They are not - they are children. It is our society's SHAME that vulnerable and damaged children are failed to such an extent by the care system. However to look at the figures, shocking as they are, and then say that a bad childhood does not account for some offender's behaviour doesnt make sense. It appeared that was what you were saying. Given that the system fails these children some of who go onto offend arent we simply failing them again by locking them up and not at the very least trying to change their behaviour? Reluctance to invest in rehabilitation programmes or support programmes and shrugging our shoulders and saying "at least they are off the street" doesnt help young offenders. Some will go on to reoffend regardless, some will need prison to change and some will never ever reform but surely we have to work so that some DO change their ways, whether they are looked after children or not. Writing off children, locking them up and not trying to change them is counterproductive in the extreme.
Community Payback schemes are fine and good but when liberal sycophants argue that this form of punishment is degrading and humiliating for the offenders it doesn't leave us much choice..
I dont see anybody doing that here. We do have a choice - we can choose to challenge them like we challenge those who would beat children with a stick and then throw them into a cell and forget about them forever.
At least by taking them out of society, either by locking them up or applying cufews, it will give the law-abiding majority a bit of respite.
And then what? three weeks, three months three years later? Then what? Of course we need prisons and of course it wont help every young offender or change every young offender and it may very well take a long time and a lot of money but isnt it worth it if it changes even ten percent of the kids who were on the road to a life off crime and jail? How much better to change things earlier so they dont have to be locked up. We need a variety of punishments in Society but we dont need to birch children even if it "did us no harm" and we do need to address the problems that are contributing to youth offending or we are just going to find more of the same year in year out.
rob murray
13-Mar-12, 17:29
Justice - particularly for the victims of young offenders should be restorative wherever possible. The offender should be meeting with victims and being made to face up and take responsibility for their offences. Where young people are damaged or have little or no understanding of the affects of their actions it can be extremely effective and is more likely to ensure that young people dont reoffend than either the birch or locking them up and whilst its not for everyone it can be effective.
Good common sense, make people face up to and explain their actions, putting pople in jail avoids responsibility, birching ditto, some short term pain and a badge of honour...its is more painful to stand and be accountable as times have proven
Never mind the Birch, what about this for a sentence?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17349774
I wonder if he will get out on parole in 3 months like he would do if he was in the UK!!!
C3...................:roll:;)
billmoseley
13-Mar-12, 19:50
He is from Yorkshire!
his loyalty's seem to lay in another country so lets put him on a plane hey we can even pay
oldmarine
19-Mar-12, 20:33
My mother had a unique way when my brother and I were youngsters. She liked to use a switch off our local peach tree. She would have the offending son cut a switch to her liking and would use that one to switch the offender. If it was not the switch she wanted (we boys learned what she wanted) she would send us back to cut the switch she thought would do the job. Believe me, we learned very quickly how to avoid those switches.
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