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spurtle
06-Mar-12, 01:16
Just wondering what everyone thinks on a man being sent to America to face a charge and being refused bail. Why has our goverment allowed the extradition of one of our citizens to face trial in a country that does not use our judicial process, has the death penalty and the alleged crime was not commited in the said country.It cou;d happen to any one of us. We can't ask for an American to come here to face trial.It shows the complete arrogance of the Americans and the pandering to them by our governments. I'm so angry at this. The man may be guilty of what ever he is accused of but to keep someone in solitary confinement 23 hrs a day with no access to reading material is not the standard to which we work. Shame on this country for allowing this.

My Opinion - just wondering if anyone thought the same ---- Rant over (for the moment)

joxville
06-Mar-12, 01:40
It's because the British Governexcrement is America's puppet, and always will be. As far as I'm aware, America has never allowed one of its citizens to be extradited, and never will, it sees itself above every other country, it uses it's economic might and threat of sanctions to get its way. A country so arrogant, it refused to join the UN unless the HQ was in America, and for a long time Congress refused to ratify the payment of its dues unless America gots its way. It is a country bereft of scruples, is morally bankrupt, and the sooner it stops interfering in other countries business, especially countries that just happen to produce oil, the better off the world will be.

joxville
06-Mar-12, 01:42
I guess if I ever visit America I'll be detained on arrival and put on the next plane home for my anti-American rant!

ducati
06-Mar-12, 08:25
Can't do the time don't do the crime-simples

mi16
06-Mar-12, 09:06
If he is innocent as protested he will have nothing to worry about.
joxville - you are not Abu Qatada are you? if so I thought you were banned from the internet as part of your release conditions.

John Little
06-Mar-12, 09:15
That's what they told Sacco and Vanzetti...

mi16
06-Mar-12, 09:22
going back a bit there are we not?
Does this British gentlemans alleged crime carry the death penalty?

John Little
06-Mar-12, 09:27
I did not say that it did and do not know.

spurtle
06-Mar-12, 09:38
Can't do the time don't do the crime-simples
Innocent until proven guilty. We don't treat our prisoners in such inhumane ways. Selling batteries to Iran for missiles, was this crime commited in America? Surely this is an international concern not a purely American one . But then again I guess the Amercans and ourselves do have a moral high ground on selling arms to savage governments - I mean you'd never catch our two countries doing that.
Irrelevant whether he is guilty or not, my question is why should we send our own to be judged by others , surely the British government had as much concern over this case as the Americans.
And remember when they demanded our justice sec to appear before the senate to answer the Megrahi case, can you imagine if we demanded one of their politicians?

pat
06-Mar-12, 10:02
Agree with you Joxville and Spurtle but I blame UK government for allowing any person who has residential rights here to be extradited to any country to stand trial for what that country considers to be a crime but not even a supposed crime committed in that country.

Like you Jox I would be turned away on landing - except nowadays think you have to apply for some other form of prewarning that you are going across to that continent which of course costs you and you can be turned down, no questions.

Since a cruise in Caribbean when had a quite a bit of delay with USA Customs and Immigration, I told them what I thought of their attitude and treeatment - USA ship docked after us but all but 2 of clearance people left to work on that ship - told 6 hours after ship docked I could go ashore - told them very politely that afdter such treatment do you think I would spend MY money supporting their economy - think long and hard again.
Many of the staff and other passengers came up and thanked me for making my very pointed comments. Never did get a reply to letters about that incident from the President or the office I contacted in UK!

10.10.10 was in London for lunch, it was pals birthday - 14 were meeting for lunch, some old acquaintances some new amongst them. Had been chatting to a friend from long ago I had not kept in touch with, she introduced me to her new partner, been chatting for sometime when pal came up and said to the couple that I now lived in Stornoway, Western Isles. Within seconds the fellow had disappeared but did not think too much about it, he sat furtherest possible from me and later at the Savoy (opening day) again furthest possible - only when I got back to pals house and watched news did behaviour of this friends partner make sense, that was the day the USA admitted they had been responsible for the death of the British aid worked held in Afghanistan, Linda Norgrove who just happened to belong to Lewis. This new partner is in a senior position in their embassy - what is the chance of accompanying new partner for lunch with a few friends and one of them living on Lewis and your country has just admitted that day to killing a woman from Lewis.

I was scheduled to fly on 12 September 2001 to Toronto, managed to get on first flight leaving Glasgow to Toronto on the Friday following, attending a christening outside Toronto. Went to visit relations in Michigan after that, to witness the madness and suspicion of the people was absolutely astounding. They beleive the world revolves around USA and their 9/11 - they forget many many other countries suffered many deaths that day too, all of the peole were not USA residents.

I personally will not be visiting USA ever again, I will not spend any of my money supporting such a nation.

spurtle
06-Mar-12, 10:04
going back a bit there are we not?
Does this British gentlemans alleged crime carry the death penalty?
It does not. But it's the principle. It is not an outside chance that a Brit may be on holiday and finds themselves be in the wrong place at the wrong time and be accused of something that carries the death sentence, there have been many high profile cases where there have been injustices in the states , would you want to take the chance ? It could happen to any one of us.

spurtle
06-Mar-12, 10:08
I forgot ,is there not a factory near Thurso who makes such batteries? You never know the States may think you've been doing the same thing - get your orange jumpsuits ready

RecQuery
06-Mar-12, 10:09
He was denied bail because he was deemed a "Danger to the community" is he going to stick batteries on their tongues or something.

Phill
06-Mar-12, 10:35
The question is not American Justice but the 2003 Extradition Act whipped up by Tony Bliar.
Tappin (it would appear to me) has been a silly man, unfortunately he has meddled with the US & their defence systems contrary to their Arms Export act (like many Western Govt's (including our own) they change each week who is friend or foe to sell weapons too).
As Ducati said "Can't do the time don't do the crime-simples".

RecQuery
06-Mar-12, 11:18
The question is not American Justice but the 2003 Extradition Act whipped up by Tony Bliar.
Tappin (it would appear to me) has been a silly man, unfortunately he has meddled with the US & their defence systems contrary to their Arms Export act (like many Western Govt's (including our own) they change each week who is friend or foe to sell weapons too).
As Ducati said "Can't do the time don't do the crime-simples".

He sold batteries, should we restrict people selling metal because it could be used to make a gun or a missile.

Phill
06-Mar-12, 11:38
He sold batteries, should we restrict people selling metal because it could be used to make a gun or a missile.
He 'sold' batteries that "their only use was for the Hawk Missile system."
He appears to be an illegal arms dealer, he required export licences for this defence technology, he didn't obtain those licences.

A tad different from Duracell sending a load of 9v PP3's.

Alrock
06-Mar-12, 12:07
He 'sold' batteries that "their only use was for the Hawk Missile system."
He appears to be an illegal arms dealer, he required export licences for this defence technology, he didn't obtain those licences.

A tad different from Duracell sending a load of 9v PP3's.

Give me one of those batteries & I bet you I could find a plethora of things that I could power with it.

Phill
06-Mar-12, 12:37
Give me one of those batteries & I bet you I could find a plethora of things that I could power with it.
Maybe you can, but you'd need to get a licence to export from the US, or ensure your supplier has a license to export. Also you may require UK licenses to import.
Having done that, then yes, you can go and play with your new battery.

But when you ask the supplier to forge documents to present to customs and the battery your buying is a Hawk Missile battery and as such requires an export licence, then your being a naughty boy.

mi16
06-Mar-12, 14:36
He sold batteries, should we restrict people selling metal because it could be used to make a gun or a missile.

The key word you used there was could.
This gent WAS selling batteries to Iran FOR their weapons.

Joefitz
06-Mar-12, 14:48
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46624708
I just love it when you all jump on the 'bash the yank' bandwagon. read the link, the man has a really good chance of walking soon.

pat
06-Mar-12, 15:13
Joe I could not give a hoot about the chance he may be walking soon - it is the fact it should not have been allowed in the first place - how would you like to be lifted from your country and treated as he has been?

Raise any charges in UK and allow the UK courts to deal with any person as they see fit - we in our country do not abide by USA rules and laws.

mi16
06-Mar-12, 15:17
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46624708
I just love it when you all jump on the 'bash the yank' bandwagon. read the link, the man has a really good chance of walking soon.

bash the yank you say.....that would make a great TV show.

Alrock
06-Mar-12, 15:28
Isn't it funny how the Americans bang on about market forces & let the market decide, yet when the market dictates that now would be a good time to sell batteries to Iran they make a quick about turn & legislate against such market forces...

The guy was just being a good capitalist... He saw a gap in the market & went for it... I would have thought the Americans would be congratulating him on that, not prosecuting.

Phill
06-Mar-12, 16:02
we in our country do not abide by USA rules and laws.It needs to be considered he was doing a deal with a US Co' for US goods, to be exported from the US and he should have been very well aware of the rules / laws (US & International) due to his profession. (Ok he was sat in an office in the UK but the crimes he's charged were to be carried out in the US.)
I quite agree the extradition process isn't brilliant and needs to change (i.e. he could be detained / monitored in the UK and go to the US immediately before the trial date), but he does have a very good case against him to answer. His solicitor and probably the Daily Wail are painting a picture of this poor unsuspecting Grandad randomly duped by the FBI for no good reason.


Isn't it funny how the Americans bang on about market forces & let the market decide, yet when the market dictates that now would be a good time to sell batteries to Iran they make a quick about turn & legislate against such market forces...Case dated back to 2005, the current issue with Iran has little or no bearing on this case. Just poor timing.


The guy was just being a good capitalist... He saw a gap in the market & went for it... I would have thought the Americans would be congratulating him on that, not prosecuting.Unfortunately the 'gap' he saw wasn't legal, he was trying to make a fast buck and it backfired.

spurtle
06-Mar-12, 16:40
He may well be as guilty as sin. For us to extradite our citizens to a coutry that has a death penalty, and I know it's not in this case, is not acceptable. If the crime had been commited on American soil then that is understandable, but otherwise not.

spurtle
06-Mar-12, 16:44
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46624708
I just love it when you all jump on the 'bash the yank' bandwagon. read the link, the man has a really good chance of walking soon.
This is nothing to do with "Bash the Yank" There are British foreign policies and injustices I abhour but it doesn't make me anti British.
Just because someone disagrees doesn't go to mean they hate the Americans.

tonkatojo
06-Mar-12, 17:03
What chance has anyone when the likes of this goes on there. LOL
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/chicken-mcnugget-%E2%80%98resembling-george-washington%E2%80%99-sells-for-%C2%A35-000-on-ebay.html

joxville
06-Mar-12, 17:44
Regardless of Tappin's guilt, if the offence was carried out on UK soil then the US should look at ways of prosecuting him here, or bog off. They are acting like bullies, plain and simple.

mi16
06-Mar-12, 17:57
And what about these guys that hack into the pentagon and fbi computer systems etc, should they be prosecuted elsewhere also.
The guy is quite simply an arms dealer, I cannot comprehend the sympathetic view towards him on here.

Joefitz
06-Mar-12, 18:12
I'm with you, mi16, he's a crook, it does not matter WHERE he is prosecuted, as long as he is!!

John Little
06-Mar-12, 18:17
And what about these guys that hack into the pentagon and fbi computer systems etc, should they be prosecuted elsewhere also.
The guy is quite simply an arms dealer, I cannot comprehend the sympathetic view towards him on here.

Because a. The treaty is not reciprocal, and

b. He has not been put on trial yet, so until it is proven in a court of law, he is an innocent man, not a crook or an arms dealer. This forum is not a court.

The US constitution does not explicitly state presumption of innocence. It is merely implied in 3 amendments.

The British one, unusually, does; it's called Magna Carta.

mi16
06-Mar-12, 18:28
Because a. The treaty is not reciprocal, and

b. He has not been put on trial yet, so until it is proven in a court of law, he is an innocent man, not a crook or an arms dealer. This forum is not a court.

The US constitution does not explicitly state presumption of innocence. It is merely implied in 3 amendments.

The British one, unusually, does; it's called Magna Carta.

Do the British not lock up offenders pending trial?

John Little
06-Mar-12, 19:21
Do the British not lock up offenders pending trial?

We do - under strict limits, but not citizens extradited from other countries who do not have a reciprocal arrangement with us.

And some of us at least do not judge them 'crooks' or 'arms dealers' before it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt.



I think that much of the anger inspired by this business is caused by the inequality of it. The US may extradite our citizens. We may not extradite US citizens.

Why that should be, I do not know but it is iniquitous.

And where you find iniquity you find anger.

Much of it would dissipate if we had the same privilege. If we cannot then the treaty should be abrogated - as soon as possible,

Phill
06-Mar-12, 21:00
He may well be as guilty as sin. For us to extradite our citizens to a coutry that has a death penalty, and I know it's not in this case, is not acceptable. If the crime had been commited on American soil then that is understandable, but otherwise not.


Regardless of Tappin's guilt, if the offence was carried out on UK soil then the US should look at ways of prosecuting him here, or bog off. They are acting like bullies, plain and simple.

So if I sit in some far off land but conspire to and commit fraud against UK citizens, say using the internet to lure people into paying for specific services they will not get, I could get away with that because I wasn't in the UK when I carried out the offence?
A terrorist can sit in a country sympathetic to his cause and he can mastermind, conspire, lead and coordinate attacks on the UK. But because he is not in the UK he can get away with it?
Would we not want him to come and face justice here?

I quite agree that the Extradition treaty is flawed and skewed very much against the UK citizens. But that isn't the fault of the US justice system, it's essentially our fault for letting Blair Liar push it through with his cronies. The US justice system is using the tools available to it.

George Brims
07-Mar-12, 09:47
I'm not getting the outrage here. Many countries have extradition treaties, and some of them aren't completely reciprocal. Mexico, for instance, doesn't extradite its own citizens if they would face the death penalty. They will however send their citizen for trial in the US to states that don't have the death penalty, or when the District Attorney promises not to pursue it. On the other hand, California just handed over a guy from California accused of murdering his wife while in Mexico on holiday. Do those of you upset about this case agree it was OK for Ronnie Biggs to escape justice for years by picking which country he ran to?

John Little
07-Mar-12, 11:50
The analogy is not a true one and that is the problem.

For years we watched criminals who had done things in this country sitting pretty in Spain before Spain joined the EU - remember the Costa del Crime?

We still have people who do stuff here and flee to other countries like North Cyprus - and we cannot touch them.


In Historical context, 150 years ago, if Britons faced 'justice' in other countries then Britain asserted her right to try her own citizens by citing the Romans 'Civis Romanis Sum'

The cause of the outrage is precisely because the treaty is unequal. Britain is supposed to be friend, ally and partner of the USA.

Why then can they extradite our citizens to answer charges in the US but we may not extradite US citizens to answers charges in the UK?

Mexico, Tomania, Dicktoria or Harria may find it acceptable.

To many of us here, myself included, I find the lack of reciprocity an outrageous infringement of sovereignty.

I would not argue that these people should not answer charges where an equal treaty exists. But it ain't equal.


And I would not support the signing of a treaty, equal or not, with Saudi Arabia where you may lose your hands or your head for crimes we give prison terms for.

And when the treaty is so recent, and it's with a global superpower, and it's so unequal, it smacks of bullying.

Why did Blair sign such a thing?

mi16
07-Mar-12, 11:52
He should think himself lucky that he has not been whisked away to Guantanamo bay under anti terror laws.

John Little
07-Mar-12, 11:53
Blair - yes I agree.

And the outrage that is Guantanamo Bay is another reason for not extraditing prisoners.

Phill
07-Mar-12, 19:39
Why did Blair sign such a thing?
Why did Blair ______ ? (fill in the blank with a feckwitted illegal war / ill conceived law / policy / etc. etc. of your choice)

In such a period when we have seen the rise of 'Rights' for just about anyone and everyone doing anything it does beggar belief we can happily sign up to something so unfair in its equality.
Moral of the story: if your gonna be naughty do it in the EU and not in the US.

spurtle
12-Mar-12, 13:04
I would be assuming that the Americans will be handing over the soldier responsable for killing the 15 civillians in Afghanistan.

Phill
26-Oct-12, 09:00
So the flawed system seems to work. Gary Mckinnon gets to stay in the UK and the numpty what got extradited is guilty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20091548

fred
26-Oct-12, 09:45
So the flawed system seems to work. Gary Mckinnon gets to stay in the UK and the numpty what got extradited is guilty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20091548

This is America, your lawyers tell you they know you're innocent but the trial is rigged, you are going down for 25 years if you plead guilty, no doubt about it.

I suppose you believed this man to be guilty as well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/15/arms-to-iraq-miscarriage-of-justice

rob murray
26-Oct-12, 12:08
Innocent until proven guilty. We don't treat our prisoners in such inhumane ways. Selling batteries to Iran for missiles, was this crime commited in America? Surely this is an international concern not a purely American one . But then again I guess the Amercans and ourselves do have a moral high ground on selling arms to savage governments - I mean you'd never catch our two countries doing that.
Irrelevant whether he is guilty or not, my question is why should we send our own to be judged by others , surely the British government had as much concern over this case as the Americans.
And remember when they demanded our justice sec to appear before the senate to answer the Megrahi case, can you imagine if we demanded one of their politicians?

I remember when George Galloway was summonsed across the water on some crap about him creaming off money from Libyan Oil etc, he went and ripped the US, so called investigative committee, to pieces and no doubt blew cigar smoke into their stunned faces as he waltzed into the sunset. We all live in a world of hypocrisy, we should ldeal with our issues and the US theirs, UK citizens and their conduct is the business of the UK and nobody elses.

Phill
27-Oct-12, 01:08
P
This is America, your lawyers tell you they know you're innocent but the trial is rigged, you are going down for 25 years if you plead guilty, no doubt about it.I suppose you believed this man to be guilty as well.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/15/arms-to-iraq-miscarriage-of-justiceI know nothing of that case, but the guy was acquitted, so not guilty?! Tappin was guilty and admitted such, problem?

fred
27-Oct-12, 09:30
PI know nothing of that case, but the guy was acquitted, so not guilty?! Tappin was guilty and admitted such, problem?

If you had read the article you would have known a little more about the case.


At their Old Bailey trial in 1985, Reginald Dunk, the arms dealer who arranged the shipment of Sterling machine guns, pleaded guilty to trying to break the export ban on arms to Iraq.


Kormornick had acted for Dunk who in 1999, 16 years after he was arrested, was awarded £2.2m in compensation for his wrongful conviction.


The case was one of a string of "arms-to-Iraq" prosecutions brought by Customs which collapsed or were later quashed on appeal, at a cost to British taxpayers of £50m.

They mention the Matrix Churchill case where the British government asked the company to supply banned goods to Iraq, when the goods were seized by customs the British government denied any involvement. It was only because the directors of Matrix Churchill had the foresight to tape record their conversations with government officials that they were not sent to prison.

The American justice system is anything but just. They use a system of plea bargaining, because someone pleads guilty it does not mean that they are, it just means that they have no faith in the fairness of the court and do not want to spend 35 years in an American prison.

secrets in symmetry
27-Oct-12, 13:19
The American justice system is anything but just. They use a system of plea bargaining, because someone pleads guilty it does not mean that they are, it just means that they have no faith in the fairness of the court and do not want to spend 35 years in an American prison.Do you know why (or how) the American plea bargaining system arose? Is it to save money, to increase crime clearup rates, or something worse?

I thought it was a great idea when watching US TV as a kid - until I realised it wasn't objective or just.

pmcd
27-Oct-12, 13:23
The American justice system is the best that money can buy.

secrets in symmetry
27-Oct-12, 13:26
The American justice system is the best that money can buy.Lol!

Is ours a lot better in that respect?

pmcd
27-Oct-12, 13:34
At least ours is blind.

And halt, weak, lame, spavined, emasculated, dithering, pretentious, contentious, litigious, anally retentive, and so far up its own rectum it spends time cleaning its teeth from below.

Apart from that, if you want to see a tart in a wig, you either stand outside a Soho dive bar or the Inns of Court......

Phill
27-Oct-12, 15:28
If you had read the article you would have known a little more about the case.Its an article about the case, not really enough detail in there for me to form an opinion on the facts of the case, unless I just accept what the article is saying. However I'm not disputing the article or the guys guilt or innocence.



The American justice system is anything but just. They use a system of plea bargaining, because someone pleads guilty it does not mean that they are, it just means that they have no faith in the fairness of the court and do not want to spend 35 years in an American prison.Possibly. Or they are guilty and have been caught!
I don't really agree with entrapment, it's not really a sound basis of crime fighting in my book. However with the Tappin case it did concern me greatly, the possibility of getting locked up on the whim of a US agent caused me some worry.
But upon looking into the facts, he's guilty as charged m'lud. And went to a lot of effort to try and make a few bob out of flogging dodgy gear, apparently with a history of doing similar in the past (I think I need to add, allegedly, for now).

Phill
27-Oct-12, 15:30
The American justice system is the best that money can buy.God Bless America!!

secrets in symmetry
27-Oct-12, 15:36
God Bless America!!And God Bless President Romney.

fred
27-Oct-12, 16:48
Possibly. Or they are guilty and have been caught!
I don't really agree with entrapment, it's not really a sound basis of crime fighting in my book. However with the Tappin case it did concern me greatly, the possibility of getting locked up on the whim of a US agent caused me some worry.
But upon looking into the facts, he's guilty as charged m'lud. And went to a lot of effort to try and make a few bob out of flogging dodgy gear, apparently with a history of doing similar in the past (I think I need to add, allegedly, for now).

He has no criminal record and no charges have been brought against him in Britain. No evidence of his guilt has been presented to a British court.

The dodgy gear you speak of is batteries, not the surface to air missiles they may or may not be used in, just batteries. It was the American government that sold the surface to air missiles to Iran.

The fact remains that his plea bargain is no indication of his guilt, it has been known all along that he would have no other option but to plea bargain whether innocent or guilty. The case could have taken years to get to court, it would have cost a lot of money he just did not have and his defence would have relied on witnesses travelling to America from Britain who may themselves find themselves victims of the American injustice system.

Phill
27-Oct-12, 18:24
just batteries.Quite specific batteries, but more importantly controlled goods which needed appropriate licences and permits to export / import, which he neglected to obtain.

Maybe there wasn't any evidence presented to a British court (there lies the issue with the extradition treaty) but the case presented was pretty damning and quite different from what has been presented in the media which tried to play on peoples emotions rather than the facts.

fred
27-Oct-12, 20:11
Quite specific batteries, but more importantly controlled goods which needed appropriate licences and permits to export / import, which he neglected to obtain.

Maybe there wasn't any evidence presented to a British court (there lies the issue with the extradition treaty) but the case presented was pretty damning and quite different from what has been presented in the media which tried to play on peoples emotions rather than the facts.

Licenses for export are obtained by the exporter, Mr Tappin says the fictitious company set up in America for the purpose of entrapment assured him they would obtain all the necessary licenses. He also says he was unaware of the final destination of the batteries, he was delivering them to the Netherlands.

But thanks to the inherent unfairness of the system we will never know, the evidence will never be presented in court. That is what it is all about, not if Mr Tappin is innocent or guilty, that we will probably never know, it is the unfairness of the system.

Phill
29-Oct-12, 11:42
The responsibility of appropriate paperwork & documents also lies with him. And why ask for 2 invoices, one showing the goods as being something different? And why was he using his own money if this was just a normal freight movement through the freight forwarding company he worked for? As far as I can see he, as an industry professional of 30 years, became suddenly an utter incompetent or he's guilty. He admitted the latter.

fred
29-Oct-12, 20:32
The responsibility of appropriate paperwork & documents also lies with him. And why ask for 2 invoices, one showing the goods as being something different? And why was he using his own money if this was just a normal freight movement through the freight forwarding company he worked for? As far as I can see he, as an industry professional of 30 years, became suddenly an utter incompetent or he's guilty. He admitted the latter.

Why would the responsibility of export licenses lie with him? He is importing not exporting. If he asks the exporters if they have the licenses and they assure him they have then it isn't his fault. He didn't ask for two invoices, the agents in America informed him they were sending two invoices, there is no evidence he asked for two.

Anyway, as I have said it's immaterial, innocent or guilty he is still entitled to a fair trial and the system is rigged to prevent him getting one.

mi16
09-Jan-13, 20:08
Tappin sentanced to 33 months in prision for his illeagl arms dealings with Iran.
Seems pretty lenient really, however he did admit his guilt which I guess weighed in his favour.
Authorities also say they will be prepared to let him serve his sentance in the UK should he wish and as long as the UK government agrees.

Oddquine
11-Jan-13, 01:00
American justice? Is there any such animal?

Trajan
11-Jan-13, 01:12
american justice, lol , no such thing, for the millionaires maybe, what was left of american justice died some time in the 1980s during the ronald reagan era, as he was selling america off on the QT.:Razz

Flynn
11-Jan-13, 10:38
American justice? Is there any such animal?

Yes, but only if you're rich and white.