Help Tsunami Survivors [Archive] - Caithness.Org Forums

Julia

30-Dec-04, 14:33

All proceeds to be donated to Oxfam for their Tsunami Survivors Appeal

On Jan 5th 2005 I will begin a 30 day sponsored diet, lost pounds will be verified by my local practice Nurse.

The death toll has reached over 90,000 and well over one million people have been left without homes!

All sponsors or donations gratefully received. Thank you to all who have sponsored me already!

If you would like to sponsor me please contact me at the following email address - julia@fluffiestuff.co.uk

Thank you very much
Julia

halkirk1

31-Dec-04, 09:20

Julia

31-Dec-04, 09:47

Thank you for your interesting comment Halkirk1, I have had a great many people sponsor me already, I am sure I will be able to raise a significantly larger amount this way. Collecting sponsors is an easy way for people to donate to this worthy cause.

I am a single parent on a low income and can't afford a large donation myself so I am doing what I can to raise money to donate to Oxfam.

lelebo

31-Dec-04, 10:53

Julia

I think what you're doing is admirable - anything anyone can do to help these people is fantastic and while some people can afford to make large donations, others can't and may even be discouraged from donating to a fund because they may feel their donation would be too small.

Halkirk1, why on earth would you criticise someone who is doing what they can to help?? Sometimes I despair of the constant negativity that comes across on this site.

I spent my honeymoon in the Adaman Islands and on Phi Phi and its one of the most beautiful places on earth with the nicest people I have ever met anywhere.

Good on you Julia and although I have already made a direct donation to the fund, I'll also be delighted to sponsor you. I'll email you direct

JammyDodger69

31-Dec-04, 11:26

Julia,

While I can't fault your intentions, rather than getting other people to help you raise funds for the victims (the majority of whom I assume have already given to the fund) why don't you just put your hand in your pocket and send some money to the fund.

Kind regards

Thats a bit harsh aint it, the fact that Julia is doin something about it rather than sittin down say aww those poor people.. she takin time out to try and raise the money for them.. we should be supporting her efforts not critisizing.

halkirk1

31-Dec-04, 12:21

I'm not having a go at Julia, I'm just saying that if she was that concerned she would have donated some money. Her post gives the impression that the only reason she is dieting is because of the disaster and in some respects it does trivialise the disaster.

Some people like to talk charity rather than actually directly doing something about it.

lelebo wrote:I spent my honeymoon in the Adaman Islands and on Phi Phi and its one of the most beautiful places on earth with the nicest people I have ever met anywhere.

What's that got to do with anything?

JammyDodger69

31-Dec-04, 12:35

But at no point has she said she ain't donating any money..

I think anything that anyone does for the cause should be encouraged..

Julia

31-Dec-04, 12:49

I'm quite offended by your comments Halkirk1. I will be dieting for 30 days to raise as much money as I can for the survivors of the tsunami, that's a 30 day effort from me and hopefully a large donation at the end of it all. I will of course be personally donating cash myself as well as effort.

I'd also like to say thank you to everyone for their donations and support, I really appreciate it!

The Godfather

31-Dec-04, 12:52

lelebo wrote:I spent my honeymoon in the Adaman Islands and on Phi Phi and its one of the most beautiful places on earth with the nicest people I have ever met anywhere.

What's that got to do with anything?

I take it you're not very good at geography? [disgust]

Drutt

31-Dec-04, 18:43

Julia, I wish both you and squidge lots of luck and think you're doing a great thing. Fingers crossed that the weight just falls off you. :D

mareng

31-Dec-04, 18:58

halkirk1

31-Dec-04, 19:24

Godfather wrote:
I take it you're not very good at geography?

I'm very much well aware of where the Adaman Islands and Phi Phi are Godfather.

Do you know where your head is? It must be so far up your ass that you haven't seen it for a while, going by your smart alec comment.

I was merely stating that Lelebos claim to have been at these locations serves no purpose. Who cares where she has been!

mareng

31-Dec-04, 19:31

Without going anywhere near Halkirk1's comments - I would have to agree that it did smack a little of "namedropping". Not everyone will think that of course - doesn't mean that they are wrong.

marion

31-Dec-04, 22:15

Got the following list from a Norwegian Newspaper - Anyone else notice that there are a few "Oil-Rich" countries missing? Are they discrete, or do they never think it will happen to them?

Significant international donations to tsunami aid (in USD million):
World Bank: 250
Great Britain: 96.3
Sweden: 80
China: 60
France: 56.2
Denmark: 55
EU: 40.8
USA: 35
Canada: 33
Japan: 30
Australia: 27
Qatar 25
Switzerland 23.8
Norway: 16.5
Bill Gates: 3

I see very few of the oil rich Muslim countries listed above. Thank God for the Christian nations who provide their support.

mareng

31-Dec-04, 22:36

jjc

31-Dec-04, 22:59

I see very few of the oil rich Muslim countries listed above. Thank God for the Christian nations who provide their support.
Thank God indeed. Where would we be without the good ‘Christian’ countries like The World Bank, China, Japan, and Qatar?

I notice Vatican City isn’t on the list… nor is Vatican City on the more extensive list provided by Reuters (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L28593949.htm) – unlike Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait.

BTW – it seems a little ‘un-Christian’ of you to use this disaster as part of some anti-Muslim propaganda.

©Amethyst

01-Jan-05, 10:26

[quote=Marion]
BTW – it seems a little ‘un-Christian’ of you to use this disaster as part of some anti-Muslim propaganda.

And considering that most of the people affected by the tsunami are Muslims.

I actually admire their faith, I've heard of people leaning on their faith during this time. Most aren't asking 'why god? why me?' They're just getting on with trying to build their lives up again.

And Julia, ignore halkirk1. Just a flamer. I do think it's a very honourable thing you're doing, Julia. I can't afford to give much myself, and I'd love to join you on your diet to help raise money but it would make my GP rather annoyed. Seriously, I'm rooting for ya.

Let us know how it goes!!!

George Brims

03-Jan-05, 21:06

The US contribution is now $350 million - ten times as much as it was before. The initial figure was only $15 million, which is slightly less than will be spent on GeeDubya's inauguration next week. US public opinion was pretty unfavourable and the administration has been running around in circles emphasising how much its's doing now. To be fair, the original dollar amount didn't include material help such as the aircraft carrier, helicopters and C-130 transport planes that have been sent, and are doing a lot to bring in supplies to affected regions.

RandomHero

04-Jan-05, 01:23

Rheghead

04-Jan-05, 01:36

If it happened to Caithness or where you live for that matter, and all your family died and all your possessions have gone into the sea. Would you wait for help to arrive from international aid? And when it doesn't, will you just shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well, they probably have their own to look after!"

Rubbish, you will want all the help you can get!!!!!!

random_hero wrote
You can't give to all so give to none.

I think you have made clear your own personal sense of (in)decency here.

jjc

04-Jan-05, 11:35

Random _hero,

i think he who gives to charity is more selfish than he who dosen't. example: you give £5 to OXFAM, that's all well and good but what about the other charities u r neglecting. You can't give to all so give to none.
Sorry, but no.

If you're unwilling to give £5 to a charity so that those less fortunate than you can have a slightly better life then that's between you and your conscience; but don't try and pretend you are motivated by anything other than miserly self-interest – and certainly don't try and pretend that your decision has any morality.

you value people who really don't have much of a life in the conditions they live in
And who are you to decide that these people don't have a sufficient quality of life to survive?

it's my opinion
That it is… and in my opinion it is the sanctimonious drivel of an egotistical twit whose sense of decency begins and ends with putting on underwear in the morning so the world is spared the horror of his nakedness… but that's just my opinion.

gravedigga

04-Jan-05, 12:41

i don't believe in giving money 2 it. no matter how much u donate, they r always going to want more.

i think he who gives to charity is more selfish than he who dosen't. example: you give £5 to OXFAM, that's all well and good but what about the other charities u r neglecting. You can't give to all so give to none.

as for helping people in the tidal wave, what about people who are suffering in our own contry. you value people who really don't have much of a life in the conditions they live in rather than people in our own country who have a chance at education ect.

it's my opinion.

Your opinion just proves how selfish you are, if you can't be kind enough to drop a fiver or a few quid in a charity box i'm glad there's not many people like you around, and the money the British public has raised for the Tsunami fund just proves that.

Stingy git!! [mad] :mad:

dragonfly

04-Jan-05, 12:51

i think he who gives to charity is more selfish than he who dosen't. :eek:

is this your way of salvaging your own conscience??

if you don't want to contribute to an appeal which will help 1000's of people whose lives have been devastated through no fault of their own, fair enough, but at least have the decency to not call the 1000's of people who have contributed selfish. [mad]

RandomHero

04-Jan-05, 22:26

i'm not a selfish person thank you very much. great jjc, uv gone to name calling something i believe u insulted me once for...interesting.

all my post on this site end up getting slagged off and i know why. it's because what i write is what everyone has in there mind. no matter how far down, it's there. giving to charity doesn't make you who you are. theres more to life that popping 20p into a charity bucket. and do you really think that 20p is helping? all these red nose days and such, they take up any entire night of tv pressuring you to give money to some people you don't know. but it's okay to force people to give to charity if it's lennie henry that's telling you to.

have you ever heard any of the africans, ethepions ect, saying thank you? I havn't. giving to charity is a selfish act. you do it because you want to feel good about it. like your helping out. fair enough, it's your money, do with it what you will. but don't pressure people by hanging around with a buckets for loose change or covering walls with posters.

tsunami is the hot charity right now but it'll die down soon. people will forget but there'll be know posters going up about any other charities or people with buckets.

if you want to talk about suffering in tsunami. what about the suffering in etheopia or any other third world country for that matter. your favouring tsunami. and you called me selfish.

stingy? i am certainly not. i give money to my relatives. i buy people presents with my wage. but i don't give to a little kid in a third world country. am i supposed to forget about those i love and who love me all for the sake of a natural disaster?

you're too much into media. you believe everyting you read.

if you want to talk about africa charities - what if they were still under british control? i bet you they'd b better off. i know they'd b better off. what's the point of giving them money - the country's problem is climate. money can't solve that.

this will sound terrible to you but you know deep down you agree.

rather them than me.

dragonfly

04-Jan-05, 23:06

stingy? i am certainly not. i give money to my relatives. i buy people presents with my wage. but i don't give to a little kid in a third world country. am i supposed to forget about those i love and who love me all for the sake of a natural disaster?

I beleive that charity begins at home but once I have bought presents and given money to my loved ones I have a choice of what to do with what I have left.

Very rarely do I give to Children in Need or Red Nose Day and such charities other than pay the £1 for dress down days at work. But when seeing such devastating scenes where children that survived are now facing illness because of lack of basic supplies such as water and food then I am sure that my kids and extended family would not be up in arms because I gave a contribution to help ease a "little kid in a third world country" suffering.

We are all free to make the choices we want to but you are completely wrong in saying that deep down I / others agree with you.

I most certainly do not [mad]

George Brims

04-Jan-05, 23:10

Well random_hero I would also rather it was you than them.

golach

04-Jan-05, 23:14

Supermam,
I'm with you all the way. This IDIOT random_hero is just a wind up merchant, who is getting his demented kicks out of us decent folks getting upset.
This is the only and last time I am even going to acknowledge it because I dont even consider random_hero a person. I will carry on choosing whom I donate my spare cash too as I hope all decent folks will do also.

Golach

Rheghead

04-Jan-05, 23:15

random_hero wrote
rather them than me.

I totally agree with you there and charity does begin with home, but that is where our common bond ceases.

Home is just another extension of 'self', so your commendable charitable attitude towards your family(at Xmas and in the face of a Global disaster) is another display of selfishness to me.

You said 'if we can't give to all then we shouldn't give to any.'

Have you tried giving to all? If so then I will give you a pat on the back and I won't mind you not giving to a charity again!

So until you have tried 'giving to all' I will think You are on the selfish side.

webmannie

04-Jan-05, 23:15

you're too much into media. you believe everyting you read.

I do not believe everything I read, I understand it is not possible for everything to be true. When there are so many credible sources of information telling me something, then i have enough brainpower to understand the situation. (something you obviously don't)

if you want to talk about africa charities - what if they were still under british control? i bet you they'd b better off. i know they'd b better off. what's the point of giving them money - the country's problem is climate. money can't solve that.

Jee whiz you must be a 100+ years old, sorry to tell you but all your Imperialist pals are dead and gone.

this will sound terrible to you but you know deep down you agree.

Yes, it does sound terrible, YOU ARE A SAD INDIVIDUAL, to think you can justify your comments by thinking everybody is as deranged as you.

rather them than me

Your words look like the rantings of a deranged person that requires the help of a phsychiatrist Your last few words have confirmed it as far as I'm concerned.

dragonfly

04-Jan-05, 23:43

This IDIOT random_hero is just a wind up merchant, who is getting his demented kicks out of us decent folks getting upset.

Looks like you are right Golach, just been looking at his previous posts and there is definately a theme running through them - mostly in insulting other races, countries, religions, but there again what would you expect from someone who was an avid watcher of I'm a Celebrity and who got really excited about a Bushtucker Trial??

Forgot to add that I bet he spent some of his precious money phoning the vote lines for that well known charity ITV

jjc

04-Jan-05, 23:45

Random_nonsense,

all my post on this site end up getting slagged off and i know why. it's because what i write is what everyone has in there mind.
Aye. That’ll be it! :roll:

giving to charity doesn't make you who you are.
Indeed not. What I am makes me give to charity.

have you ever heard any of the africans, ethepions ect, saying thank you?
It’s sad that you feel that they need to.

stingy? i am certainly not. i give money to my relatives. i buy people presents with my wage. but i don't give to a little kid in a third world country. am i supposed to forget about those i love and who love me all for the sake of a natural disaster?
Who ever said this is an either/or situation?

the country's problem is climate.
Sorry. Which country?

Rheghead

04-Jan-05, 23:52

My dictionary gives the definition of 'Hero' as: someone who fights for a cause!

Random_hero should change his membership name to Random_Miser.

The Godfather

05-Jan-05, 00:09

it's because what i write is what everyone has in there
Do you get out? Have you met other people?

theres more to life that popping 20p into a charity bucket.
There is also more to life than eating, breathing, going to work, the list is endless. So what you are sayin really makes no sense at all.

and do you really think that 20p is helping?

Well if everyone in Britain gave 20p that makes £12,000,000. But you couldnt buy anything with £12m its so insignificantly small.

all these red nose days and such, they take up any entire night of tv pressuring you to give money to some people you don't know

The last red nose day raised £ 61,477,539, Pudsay raised £17,000,000. £78,000,000 would be of no use any county in a bad situation. And a couple of quid is such a great loss to us.

have you ever heard any of the africans, ethepions ect, saying thank you? I havn't.

Do you expect them to come to your door and thank you personally?

tsunami is the hot charity right now but it'll die down soon. people will forget but there'll be know posters going up about any other charities or people with buckets.

Yes it is the thing to give money to right now. But after the people get the help they need and get their lives back in order and thier country rebuilt with money British people have genorously donoated it will die down. But then another disaster will happen down the line and we will give money to help will it. God, imagine that, giving money twice in a decade.

And you say you give to your family. If your family member was caugh up in the tsunami and needed medical help. Who is likely to give it to them. The Red Cross. How are the red cross funded?

MadPict

05-Jan-05, 00:56

:eyes
We may find ourselves in this awful scenario - maybe not for many, many years - but if and when the western flank of the Cumbre Vieja volcano, on the southern half of La Palma, finally decides to let go the resulting tidal wave will move rapidly westwards.

"Most of the energy of the wave would head straight out across the Atlantic towards the United States, Bahamas and the Caribbean, but a smaller wave or waves would head in other directions too. All these waves would get smaller as they cross the Atlantic. However scientists believe that they could still be as much as 50 metres high, for example, when they reach the east coast of the United States."

"...50 metres high..." would dwarf the waves produced by the Sumatra earthquake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/mega_tsunami.shtml

So one day we may be relying on the charity of others.....

mysophales

05-Jan-05, 14:17

have you ever heard any of the africans, ethepions ect, saying thank you? I havn't.

My Wife and I sponsor an Ethiopian girl with £15 a month, Have a standing order for cancer research and also the World wildlife fund.
And yes, every other month we get a letter from the little Ethiopian girl, thank you letters from the other two charities along with news letters of what they are doing with the money.

all my post on this site end up getting slagged off and i know why. it's because what i write is what everyone has in there mind.

If everyone had a mind like yours, then god help us all.

RandomHero

05-Jan-05, 20:22

ho ho ho! that post did get the odd reply or two. i really don't know where to start.probably all the selfishness clogging up my insides.

if the government wanted to clear tsuanmi up or any charity like that they could do it just like that. they have the money. whos the selfish one? i'm not going to substitute my money for the governments just coz they won't pay. and why should they have to? "don't go to war with iraq! every country is equal!" if we are all equal, then lets spend our money on us and others countries can spend their money on themselves. you calling me&all the other millions of people who don't give to charity selfish is just the same as me calling all those who do selfish. giving to charity isn't the correct answer.

of course i expect them to say thank you. they havn't earned the money.

It's communist. If everybody just gives their things away for free, no one will want to work for anything, and our society will crumble.

The food you give goes to waste. almost 40% of food collected for Christmas food drives is unusable. Impoverished people may be starving, but most still won't eat cream of mushroom soup and don't know what to do with seventeen cans of tomato paste?

if you want to give to charity fine. not saying you can't. you expressed an opinion on giving to charity and i expressed mine. the difference is your posts were replied with "oh, you're briallian helping all those people! god bless you!" my view was shot down and told i needed 'help'.

i'm not saying i'm opposed to all charities. id find it much easier to give to a charity that goes towards people in our country and that i havn't been guilt tripped into.

i would love to be as perfect as the rest of you but i guess i'm not :(

it's called freedom of speech. don't shoot me down for it. if we didn't have freedom of speech, where would we be?

jjc

05-Jan-05, 22:08

Random_idiocy,

i'm not going to substitute my money for the governments just coz they won't pay.
Errr… you haven’t quite got to grips with this whole ‘government’ thing yet, have you? The government’s money is your money. The reason that they can’t just pay off third-world debt and give all the change left over to help the survivors of the tsunami is that they represent everybody… including misers like you.

you calling me&all the other millions of people who don't give to charity selfish is just the same as me calling all those who do selfish. giving to charity isn't the correct answer.
There are many reasons why people don’t give to charity. Those who share your ‘everybody for themselves’ attitude are, to my mind, most definitely selfish.

It's communist.
It is? How so?

The food you give goes to waste. almost 40% of food collected for Christmas food drives is unusable.
So 60% of the food collected is usable?

my view was shot down and told i needed 'help'.
I don’t think you need help. What you need is a small island in the middle of a very large ocean where you can while away your days in happy contemplation of just how great you are.

it's called freedom of speech.
Indeed it is. And I’m exercising my own ‘freedom of speech’ to say the word ‘cretin’.

webmannie

05-Jan-05, 23:31

I think we should ignore Random_Cretins rantings and get back to the original subject.

I am classing 'it' as a nonentity and will just bypass any postings from 'it'. 'It' will go away if 'it' is ignored.

Who's with me?

Rheghead

05-Jan-05, 23:40

I am ignoring any random postings on this thread as well

RandomHero

06-Jan-05, 00:06

which is more selfish and deserves to be shunned:

a person who is good all their life and doesn't give to charity.

OR

a person who isn't very nice, say he's got a horrible attitude towards women but he gives £5 a month to oxfam.

going by your posts, the first person is selfish.

jjc, i don't really want to comment on u but ur a know it all. an annoying one at that who has most definatly resorted to name calling. stop trying to be the people's person. you can call me anything you want and feel like the tough guy but it's not effecting me in the slightest. use your freedom of speech at your own discretion. and i will use mine.

you don't like my views because you don't agree with them. fair enough. it reminds me of folk such as martin luther king, muhammed ali or any other person who's had a belief and was shot down for saying it.

you can't stand not being right. i'm not saying i'm right, by no means but you're not right either. there's no right or wrong answer. giving to charity doesn't make you a good person. not giving to charity does not make you a bad person.

and as for deciding to ignore my posts? a bit childish, no? i've got every right to post on this site and have the same amount of respect shown as everybody else.

i'm not trying to cause fights. i'm expressing my opinion. that's there's more in this world than just 'do-gooders'. if we were all born the same life would be boring.

think what you will about random_hero. at least i'm not afraid to say what i think. if we can't say what we think then what's the point of having the power of speech and thought?

linzy222

06-Jan-05, 02:04

http://newfunpages.com/tsunami.php3?id=lindsaydavis@tiscali.co.uk&s=212

jjc

06-Jan-05, 11:03

Random_lunacy,

you don't like my views because you don't agree with them.

all my post on this site end up getting slagged off and i know why. it's because what i write is what everyone has in there mind […]this will sound terrible to you but you know deep down you agree
Do make your mind up.

i've got every right to post on this site and have the same amount of respect shown as everybody else.
I agree entirely.

None of us has a right to post on this site; we do so at the discretion of the management. That includes you.

None of us has a right to automatic respect; respect has to be earned. That also includes you.

Sorry; what was your point again?

Anyway, I see that a trend has been set. Childish though you might think it to be, I guess we're done here.

Julia

06-Jan-05, 14:15

Just to keep you all up-to-date, everything it going to plan re: the sponsorship and thanks again to all who have sponsored/supported me, I'm very grateful.

I've registered my efforts with Oxfam and in doing so the value of each donation will be increased by 28% through Gift Aid, Oxfam can then reclaim the tax on any donations made by tax payers (currently 28p for each £1).

:D

jjc

06-Jan-05, 16:06

I hope we're going to get daily updates on progress (I need to keep my bank manager informed!) ;)

squidge

07-Jan-05, 12:38

Thats me back from my new year festivities so i will be starting next week on my sponsored get thin quick programme.

Any people interested in sponsoring me can pm me and i will let them know whats happening

My first weight watchers class is next thursday so i have until then to finish the cheese wine and all the goodies left over from new year.

Caledonia

07-Jan-05, 13:41

We may find ourselves in this awful scenario

I thought you were from Scotland man?

;)

MadPict

08-Jan-05, 16:30

I was - if a wave that big occurs I think it will affect an lot of Northern Europe as well as the eastern side of the US...

Rheghead

09-Jan-05, 09:35

The UK taxpayer (Tony Blair's Government) has underwritten failed arms deals between BAE Sytems Ltd and the Indonesian Government to the tune of £545 million over the last 6 years.

IOW If the Indonesian Government were prepared to spend that kind of money on arms then surely they can spend the same on their own citizens who are suffering?

skydivvy

10-Jan-05, 16:04

Random_nonsense,

Who ever said this is an either/or situation?

the country's problem is climate.
Sorry. Which country?

I just read in the paper that it's amatter of time before one hits Scotland.

skydivvy

10-Jan-05, 16:20

If one does hit Scotland, I suppose that when Random_lunacy looses everything, and sits starving on a mountainside, he will refuse all donations and help from other countries as a matter of principle?

jjc

10-Jan-05, 21:45

If the Indonesian Government were prepared to spend that kind of money on arms then surely they can spend the same on their own citizens who are suffering?
What makes you think that they aren't spending that kind of money?

Rheghead

10-Jan-05, 22:49

Is there anything to suggest they are spending that sort of money on its own ?

jjc

10-Jan-05, 23:56

So until you are given the balance sheet of the Indonesian government your assumption is that they are what – looking on with bemusement from their gold-encrusted palaces as the world pays to feed and shelter their people?

I’m afraid I’m more inclined to believe that they are throwing every penny they can lay their hands on at this crisis. Perhaps that doesn’t amount to £545million, but so long as they are doing all they can what does it matter?

Rheghead

11-Jan-05, 00:02

If they are not spending £545 million then buying arms matters more than their own citizens.

scotsboy

11-Jan-05, 05:20

To be honest I dont really care if the Indonesian government cares or does not care for its people - I dont think it right that they or others effected by this tragedy should suffer further and therefore have no problem with doing what little I can.

jjc

11-Jan-05, 10:37

Rheghead

11-Jan-05, 10:58

If they are not spending £545 million then buying arms matters more than their own citizens.
a) They were unable to pay for the £545 of arms that they ordered (hence, 'failed arms deals') so to criticise them for potentially being unable to spend the same amount now seems a little like you're trying to find reasons to look down your nose at them.

b) They ordered those arms before the tsunami hit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and you seem to be enjoying its use greatly!

You also wrote
So until you are given the balance sheet of the Indonesian government your assumption is that they are what – looking on with bemusement from their gold-encrusted palaces as the world pays to feed and shelter their people?

a) So until you are given the balance sheet of the Indonesian Government your assumption is that they are what - looking on with bemusement from their gold encrusted palaces and they refused to pay such ludicrous prices for arms because they could not afford them?

b) You seem to think I am enjoying the fact that I have revealed that the Indonesian Government can enter negotiations with a British arms company where the deal has a price tag of £545 million while International combined aid is just a meagre fraction of that sum.

You have read me wrong, I am mortified that they can be in a financial position to enter such negotiations when the disaster relief aid is paltry in comparison. Presumably they wouldn't enter such negotiations unless they could pay for them or had a realistic possibility of doing so?

No, I was just trying to inform to put things into perspective, only to let YOU make up your mind whether the Indonesian Government will act ethically during the fallout of this terrible disaster.

Also, for the lack of a current snapshot of Indonesian monetory affairs, my assumption is that they have that amount of cash available to spend on relief as the deal did not go through.

jjc

11-Jan-05, 14:09

So until you are given the balance sheet of the Indonesian Government your assumption is that they are what - looking on with bemusement from their gold encrusted palaces and they refused to pay such ludicrous prices for arms because they could not afford them?
Well, let's think… in 1997 the IMF gave Indonesia a $40bn package to help rescue its economy. Even with that package, 1998 saw 70% of the companies listed on the Indonesian stock exchange technically bankrupt. So, do I think that the Indonesian government refused to pay for these arms because they couldn't afford them? Yes, I do.

You seem to think I am enjoying the fact that I have revealed that the Indonesian Government can enter negotiations with a British arms company where the deal has a price tag of £545 million while International combined aid is just a meagre fraction of that sum.
I'm sorry, you revealed? Don't make me laugh.

This was 'revealed' in the Guardian before Christmas (and the order itself was placed well before it interested any journalists). The tsunami struck after Christmas. Any link between this arms deal and the aid given to the victims of this natural disaster is entirely in your head.

Presumably they wouldn't enter such negotiations unless they could pay for them or had a realistic possibility of doing so?
Do you really think that buying a dozen fighter jets is like popping down to the local Ford garage and ordering a Fiesta? Do you just drop a quick sketch of your military insignia in at your local BAE office and get them to paint it on an aircraft in a warehouse in Slough? Is spending £545m a spur-of-the-moment thing, or did it pass through government departments for a year before the order was even placed?

Perhaps the Indonesian government thought they would have the funds by the time the order was ready and then things didn't quite 'pan out' the way they envisaged?

….And even if they did place this order without having the wherewithal to pay for the delivered product, what has that got to do with giving international aid to victims of this tsunami?

Zael

11-Jan-05, 18:11

well, to sort of sweep aside all this tosh over arms, the money I'm giving is for the people who need it, not the government. I'd give it regardless of where or who they were. If it will do something right away to start making things better for those who have survived then all well and good.

Just in the same way that giving money to ethiopia was without regard for what their government was/is doing with their own cash and resources.

This is just a pathertic twist to the argument just for arguments sake.

Rheghead

11-Jan-05, 19:48

jjc wrote
The tsunami struck after Christmas. Any link between this arms deal and the aid given to the victims of this natural disaster is entirely in your head.

I never suggested that there was a link, I only suggested that since they never bought those arms then they may have some spare cash to spend on relief.

jjc wrote

Do you really think that buying a dozen fighter jets is like popping down to the local Ford garage and ordering a Fiesta? Do you just drop a quick sketch of your military insignia in at your local BAE office and get them to paint it on an aircraft in a warehouse in Slough?

I can answer with experience here , having been an employee of BAE Systems myself for 21 years, yes, it is as simple as that so long as you have the money to pay for them.

you finally wrote

….And even if they did place this order without having the wherewithal to pay for the delivered product, what has that got to do with giving international aid to victims of this tsunami?

Yes it does, as the tsunami occurred so recently after this failed arms deal, then they have plenty of cash to spend on relief.

jjc

12-Jan-05, 01:53

I never suggested that there was a link, I only suggested that since they never bought those arms then they may have some spare cash to spend on relief.
And that’s not a link how, exactly?

I can answer with experience here , having been an employee of BAE Systems myself for 21 years, yes, it is as simple as that so long as you have the money to pay for them.
So BAE have sixteen Hawk fighter jets sitting in a warehouse just in case somebody wants to buy them? They don’t make the planes to order?

Yes it does, as the tsunami occurred so recently after this failed arms deal, then they have plenty of cash to spend on relief.
When you say ‘recently’ you aren’t, perhaps, confusing the date that the sale of 16 BAE Hawks to Indonesia took place and the date that the Guardian published the details of the bail-out that they acquired through the Freedom of Information act, are you? One was in December 2004, the other was in 1996. I’ll let you work out which is which.

Julia

13-Jan-05, 11:17

First week in and it's going well, I've even collected a few more sponsors, thanks everybody!

:D

Julia

20-Jan-05, 14:05

Since January 5th I have lost a total of 16 pounds, still 14 days to go!

Thanks again to all my sponsors, at this rate I will raise a sizeable donation for Oxfam.

Julia

jjc

20-Jan-05, 21:33

Blimey! What are you eating, laxatives?

Well done. Keep it up (or should that be off?)

Rheghead

21-Jan-05, 00:03

Blimey! What are you eating, laxatives?

Well done. Keep it up (or should that be off?)

Fat fighters on 'Little Britain' recommend dust, may be that's her diet?

Anyway, well done! don't put it all back... :o)

katarina

26-Jan-05, 21:26

Caithness writers have brought out a booklet of their work, proceeds too go to the tsunami fund. Anyone who wants to help but wants to get something for their money, please buy one.

Mr P Cannop

26-Jan-05, 21:38

where can i find this book ??

gravedigga

26-Jan-05, 22:13

Why don't you try a local bookshop

katarina

28-Jan-05, 10:31

where can i find this book ??

They are on sale in all the bookshops in Wick. Don't know if they've got as far as thurso, but I do know that they are going for another print.

katarina

28-Jan-05, 14:25

where can i find this book ??

The Card Shop, Newsmarket and Bews bookshop.

crayola

28-Jan-05, 20:53

Since January 5th I have lost a total of 16 pounds, still 14 days to go!

16 pounds in 15 days! That is an incredible rate of weight loss. How did you do it? That is a serious question btw.

Could you send me some of your will power? Or perhaps even some of your "won't power"? I am a founder member of Breakfast Aware Weekoholics Anonymous, so any help will be well welcome. Could you pass that giant jam chocolate croissant please?

For goodness sake Julia, don't make yourself ill.