Positive Coalition Thread

[tonkatojo]

I noted the positive independence thread and wondered if there would be any positive response to this thread. Now I know it will be most likely moved to the joke section along with most of my threads but I thought I'd give it a go.
Feel free to add your thoughts or jests.

[John Little]

Let me see now.

Economy nose-diving.
Unemployment, especially among the young, soaring.
Local services being cut at all levels.
Inflation rising.
Growth flatlined.
NHS in peril.
Marginalised in Europe.
Yet tied in to use our money to prop other people up.
Engaged in a pointless foreign war.
Possibly about to preside over the break-up of the Union.
Crime figures rising
Education system in chaos.
Bankers allowed to hold the taxpayer to ransom and no regulatory legislation with any bite brought in to curb them.
A taxation system that allows a minority to hog disproportionate wealth at the expense of the poorer sectors of society.
Social housing breaking down.
A minority party able to impose a rigid ideology on a country that, for the most part, did not vote for it.


And nothing on offer but more of the same.

You want positive?

Okay.

The coalition government is a master-class in how not to do it.

[RecQuery]

Positive thing about the coalition: They're slightly less evil than they could be.

[Phill]

Economy nose-diving.
Unemployment, especially among the young, soaring.
Local services being cut at all levels.
Inflation rising.
Growth flatlined.
NHS in peril.
Marginalised in Europe.
Yet tied in to use our money to prop other people up.
Engaged in a pointless foreign war.
Possibly about to preside over the break-up of the Union.
Crime figures rising
Education system in chaos.
Bankers allowed to hold the taxpayer to ransom and no regulatory legislation with any bite brought in to curb them.
A taxation system that allows a minority to hog disproportionate wealth at the expense of the poorer sectors of society.
Social housing breaking down.
A minority party able to impose a rigid ideology on a country that, for the most part, did not vote for it.

Vive la Révolution!

(time to resurrect me trebuchet party?!!)

[ducati]

Yep, What we need is a new government. One than can, with a wave of their wand, make all the problems go away.

Any suggestions? How about the Magic Party? :roll:

[John Little]

Yep, What we need is a new government. One than can, with a wave of their wand, make all the problems go away.

Any suggestions? How about the Magic Party? :roll:

You mean one that regulates its banks, encourages industry, encourages worker participation in work, does not engage in stupid foreign adventures and cuts judiciously with a mind to the overall effect on society?

One that follows Social Democratic policies, balancing the demands of Finance with the good of the people? Which might give us the strongest economy in Europe?

That's a pretty good idea. We could call it, let's see now... oh yes The Christian Democrat Union.

Trouble is we'd need a German ex-Communist woman to lead it...

[golach]

Yep, What we need is a new government. One than can, with a wave of their wand, make all the problems go away.Any suggestions? How about the Magic Party? :roll:

Do not worry ducati, all is in hand, come 2014 Oor Eck, will appear over the horizon, in the company of Mel Gibson aka Willie Wallace and Liam Neeson aka Rab Mcgregor, and all these problems will vanish [lol]

[Corrie 3]

Note to LibDem's.....................When you crawl into bed with the Tories...............Expect to get shafted !!!!!


C3.............:eek::roll:

[gleeber]

Do not worry ducati, all is in hand, come 2014 Oor Eck, will appear over the horizon, in the company of Mel Gibson aka Willie Wallace and Liam Neeson aka Rab Mcgregor, and all these problems will vanish [lol]
Your an ankle nipper Golach. Even if Alex Salmond was to come over Arthurs seat in his golden chariot you widna see him because your teeth would be sunk into some other poor unfortunates ankle. Keep yer head up and smell the roses. [lol]

[tonkatojo]

You mean one that regulates its banks, encourages industry, encourages worker participation in work, does not engage in stupid foreign adventures and cuts judiciously with a mind to the overall effect on society?

One that follows Social Democratic policies, balancing the demands of Finance with the good of the people? Which might give us the strongest economy in Europe?

That's a pretty good idea. We could call it, let's see now... oh yes The Christian Democrat Union.

Trouble is we'd need a German ex-Communist woman to lead it...

Well that rules out a Thatcher replica for the job but your ideas are very ok.

[tonkatojo]

Note to LibDem's.....................When you crawl into bed with the Tories...............Expect to get shafted !!!!!


C3.............:eek::roll:

Well there lies a non jest.

[tonkatojo]

Do not worry ducati, all is in hand, come 2014 Oor Eck, will appear over the horizon, in the company of Mel Gibson aka Willie Wallace and Liam Neeson aka Rab Mcgregor, and all these problems will vanish [lol]

I hope this is one of your jests.;)

[tonkatojo]

Let me see now.

Economy nose-diving.
Unemployment, especially among the young, soaring.
Local services being cut at all levels.
Inflation rising.
Growth flatlined.
NHS in peril.
Marginalised in Europe.
Yet tied in to use our money to prop other people up.
Engaged in a pointless foreign war.
Possibly about to preside over the break-up of the Union.
Crime figures rising
Education system in chaos.
Bankers allowed to hold the taxpayer to ransom and no regulatory legislation with any bite brought in to curb them.
A taxation system that allows a minority to hog disproportionate wealth at the expense of the poorer sectors of society.
Social housing breaking down.
A minority party able to impose a rigid ideology on a country that, for the most part, did not vote for it.


And nothing on offer but more of the same.

You want positive?

Okay.

The coalition government is a master-class in how not to do it.


Seems about right to me and reads the same.

[John Little]

Vive la Révolution!

(time to resurrect me trebuchet party?!!)

Too darned right! I'll follow you!

Victory for common sense - and trebuchet all fat cats out into the Pentland Firth.

We need a new radical coalition party for the UK - not tied to some half-baked ideology save plain common sense, the meaning of which to be defined by an Org committee.

I nominate Riggerboy for President and Phill for PM.

[tonkatojo]

Yep, What we need is a new government. One than can, with a wave of their wand, make all the problems go away.

Any suggestions? How about the Magic Party? :roll:

I wasn't going to bite, but your right we need a party with some magic certainly non of the current whether it be individually or combined.

[Nick Noble]

OK, you want positives.

If the coalition government had not been formed after a huge amount of soul seraching by the Liberal Democrats either we would have had a very weak Conservative government, hardly able to gevern and lurching from crisis to crisis, in an attempt to bring it's policies forward. The alternative would have had to be a repeat of 1974 scenario where the country faced a second general election within a short period of time, with a very probable Conservative majority government (as the most affluent party, and the one able to generate funds more easily than the other major parties they would have had a massive advantage over the other parties for campaigning).

Then we would have seen an unadulterated Conservative legislative programme.

Billions would have been wasted on a replacement for Trident.
Health and welfare reforms would have gone much further much faster to the detriment of all.
The tax system would have been skewed even further to the wealthy and big business, and away from those on modest incomes.
The banks would not be facing the controls being implemented.
Tax avoidance would not be getting stamped on.

The whole of Europe is facing a severe financial crisis - countries throughout the EU are getting downgraded by the Ratings agencies, the UK is still on AAA. That is because a strong government has followed through on a very harsh economic program which the international financial community believes will work.

Am I happy Liberal Democrats are in coalition with the Conservatives? NO - I want a Liberal Democrat government.

Would I have prefered a coalition with Labour? NO - I want a Liberal Democrat government.

Should the Liberal Democrats pull out of the coalition now and precipitate either a minority conservative government, a minority labour government or a Labour / Liberal Democrat coalition Government? NO (and the new rules make it highly unlikely there would be support from sufficient MP's to allow for a general election before 2015).

What will happen in 2015?

Very likely another coalition government, who will be in that government I've no idea, but I will be surprised to see any party with an overall majority. Is that a good thing? Well on balance, actually yes I think it is. It should ameliorate the worst of the lurches we tend to see from Labour to Conservative, and vice versa. Has anyone else noticed how often Labour currently are saying they don't agree with what the Government are doing, but that they won't be changing it> Could it be that because two parties are co-operating to run the country the actual policies being implemented have support across a far wider base than is normal for any government, and are therefore less extreme in a party political sense, and more radical in effect.

Do I think that the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats did the right thing for the UK in forming a coalition government in 2010 - a massive resounding YES!

And I believe history will judge it favourably, despite the extreme austerity we all face, all the alternatives would have been worse for the UK over time.

[tonkatojo]

OK, you want positives.

If the coalition government had not been formed after a huge amount of soul seraching by the Liberal Democrats either we would have had a very weak Conservative government, hardly able to gevern and lurching from crisis to crisis, in an attempt to bring it's policies forward. The alternative would have had to be a repeat of 1974 scenario where the country faced a second general election within a short period of time, with a very probable Conservative majority government (as the most affluent party, and the one able to generate funds more easily than the other major parties they would have had a massive advantage over the other parties for campaigning).

Then we would have seen an unadulterated Conservative legislative programme.

Billions would have been wasted on a replacement for Trident.
Health and welfare reforms would have gone much further much faster to the detriment of all.
The tax system would have been skewed even further to the wealthy and big business, and away from those on modest incomes.
The banks would not be facing the controls being implemented.
Tax avoidance would not be getting stamped on.

The whole of Europe is facing a severe financial crisis - countries throughout the EU are getting downgraded by the Ratings agencies, the UK is still on AAA. That is because a strong government has followed through on a very harsh economic program which the international financial community believes will work.

Am I happy Liberal Democrats are in coalition with the Conservatives? NO - I want a Liberal Democrat government.

Would I have prefered a coalition with Labour? NO - I want a Liberal Democrat government.

Should the Liberal Democrats pull out of the coalition now and precipitate either a minority conservative government, a minority labour government or a Labour / Liberal Democrat coalition Government? NO (and the new rules make it highly unlikely there would be support from sufficient MP's to allow for a general election before 2015).

What will happen in 2015?

Very likely another coalition government, who will be in that government I've no idea, but I will be surprised to see any party with an overall majority. Is that a good thing? Well on balance, actually yes I think it is. It should ameliorate the worst of the lurches we tend to see from Labour to Conservative, and vice versa. Has anyone else noticed how often Labour currently are saying they don't agree with what the Government are doing, but that they won't be changing it> Could it be that because two parties are co-operating to run the country the actual policies being implemented have support across a far wider base than is normal for any government, and are therefore less extreme in a party political sense, and more radical in effect.

Do I think that the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats did the right thing for the UK in forming a coalition government in 2010 - a massive resounding YES!

And I believe history will judge it favourably, despite the extreme austerity we all face, all the alternatives would have been worse for the UK over time.


We know all the excuses you listed and quite frankly all it says is the libdems saved us from a tory government perhaps so but at what cost to their integrity. I well know the condems ensured they had pension rights and government limos until 2015, the question is why did they do that. Also if there was to be a general election next month do you really think the UK population will fall for this scenario a second time. I honestly think you should do yourself a big favour and disband from them and go as an independent, you seem a honest enough if not disillusioned bloke for your prediction of another coalition next time would have to be labour and tory for the libdems will be almost extinct in my opinion. The lies and u-turns are beyond belief and look at the broken promises with the NHS they are even pressing ahead and most are against it even doctors and nurses, ok there are afew tory voting doctors spread around the country that agree but not many, and can you believe the audacity of them wanting 49% of hospital beds turned over to private concerns. No thanks.

[Nick Noble]

Question for everyone.

It's May 2010 the election has just happened, the results are:

Conservative Party 306
Labour Party 258
Liberal Democrat Party 57
SNP 6
Green Party 1
Sinn Féin Party 5
DUP 8
Plaid Cymru Party 3
SDLP 3
Alliance Party 1
Independent – Sylvia Hermon 1

Now bearing in mind the financial meltdown that is happening all around, and that as we now know basically the UK is bankrupt, how do you put in place a government that can put in place a package of financial measures that will satisfy the world financial markets, be certain of reasonable longevity, and allow you to carry out a proper legislative program.

Remember it needs to last.
It needs to be seen to be financially competent.

Also remember that given the UK's interesting constitution Labour DO NOT have to relinquish power if they can show they can command a majority in the House of Commons.

Over to you...

[John Little]

UK election 2010



Popular vote10,703,654
8,606,517
6,836,248






Well over 17 million people did not vote Conservative.

Clegg should have made far more of an effort at a deal with Labour considering that both Labour and Lib-Dem are not conservative and that people who vote for them do not want Conservatism.

If the reasoning is that the Lib Dems could have a moderating influence on the Conservatives, then they could have had a moderating influence on Labour too.

I cannot admit that financial competence is a qualification for government - the performance of this government indicates otherwise.

But what I cannot forgive Clegg for is that he could halt this nonsense right now.

[Nick Noble]

We know all the excuses you listed and quite frankly all it says is the libdems saved us from a tory government perhaps so but at what cost to their integrity. I well know the condems ensured they had pension rights and government limos until 2015, the question is why did they do that.

What they did was form a Government that will last for five years to enable some certainty in an uncertain world. Financial markets like that.



Also if there was to be a general election next month do you really think the UK population will fall for this scenario a second time.

Given the hurt being caused to most people in the UK by this Government the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are not exactly winning friends, and therefore Labour ought to be well ahead in the polls. Unfortunately for them they do not so far have any leadership or policies with which to attract potential voters and they are fairly much neck and neck with the Conservatives. In mid term with such a reviled government this should be sounding very loud alarm bells in labour HQ. Given that then yes, I do believe that we will see another hung parliament.


I honestly think you should do yourself a big favour and disband from them and go as an independent, you seem a honest enough if not disillusioned bloke for your prediction of another coalition next time would have to be labour and tory for the libdems will be almost extinct in my opinion.

The thing is in the UK there is a party political system, and I have been a believer in Liberal Democracy for most of my adult life. The policies of the Liberal Democrats have not changed since forming the coalition, unfortunately the coalition means Ministers and MP's having to support the government even on some personally (and party) distasteful issues. That is the rules of party politics and of the doctrine of collective responsibility. I would actually be dishonest to put myself up for election as an independent whilst still believing in and supporting the party policies of the Liberal Democrats.



The lies and u-turns are beyond belief and look at the broken promises with the NHS they are even pressing ahead and most are against it even doctors and nurses, ok there are a few tory voting doctors spread around the country that agree but not many, and can you believe the audacity of them wanting 49% of hospital beds turned over to private concerns. No thanks.

I'm looking forward to the Liberal Democrat Spring Conferences.

The Scottish Party conference in Inverness, and especially the discussions we will have regarding the independence referendum, and more importantly our parties views on Home Rule, something which has been central to Liberal politics in the UK since 1880 or thereabouts.

The Federal Party conference in Gateshead, at which I expect a full and frank discussion to take place regarding the changes being proposed for the NHS in England and Wales. Don't forget the NHS in Scotland is not what is being legislated on in the UK Parliament, Health is a devolved matter.

[Nick Noble]

UK election 2010



10,703,654
8,606,517
6,836,248







Well over 17 million people did not vote Conservative.

Clegg should have made far more of an effort at a deal with Labour considering that both Labour and Lib-Dem are not conservative and that people who vote for them do not want Conservatism.

If the reasoning is that the Lib Dems could have a moderating influence on the Conservatives, then they could have had a moderating influence on Labour too.

I cannot admit that financial competence is a qualification for government - the performance of this government indicates otherwise.

But what I cannot forgive Clegg for is that he could halt this nonsense right now.

Labour made it very clear they were not interested in a deal, indeed there were voices within the labour movement stating that they needed a period in opposition to regroup and re-asses policies.

How could Clegg halt this nonsense right now, what would happen if he put a stop to the coalition this afternoon?

The international financial markets and ratings agencies appear happy with the governments management of the economy.

[John Little]

What would happen if the coalition ended this afternoon would be that Cameron would not longer be PM and Osborne would no longer be in charge of the economy. The Lib Dems would, to the rejoicing of most of their followers and the saving of their party, form a coalition with Labour.

Or have another election.

The financial markets, bankers, ratings agencies etc are all happy.

The people do not seem to be so.

[tonkatojo]

"What they did was form a Government that will last for five years to enable some certainty in an uncertain world. Financial markets like that."
You honestly believe that do you, I don't !

".Given the hurt being caused to most people in the UK by this Government the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are not exactly winning friends, and therefore Labour ought to be well ahead in the polls. Unfortunately for them they do not so far have any leadership or policies with which to attract potential voters and they are fairly much neck and neck with the Conservatives. In mid term with such a reviled government this should be sounding very loud alarm bells in labour HQ. Given that then yes, I do believe that we will see another hung parliament."
Going off the polls it wont be with the libdems.

"The thing is in the UK there is a party political system, and I have been a believer in Liberal Democracy for most of my adult life. The policies of the Liberal Democrats have not changed since forming the coalition, unfortunately the coalition means Ministers and MP's having to support the government even on some personally (and party) distasteful issues. That is the rules of party politics and of the doctrine of collective responsibility. I would actually be dishonest to put myself up for election as an independent whilst still believing in and supporting the party policies of the Liberal Democrats."
There lies your downfall,in my opinion.

"The Federal Party conference in Gateshead, at which I expect a full and frank discussion to take place regarding the changes being proposed for the NHS in England and Wales. Don't forget the NHS in Scotland is not what is being legislated on in the UK Parliament, Health is a devolved matter."
Ayr that is right but all MPs have their vote and say on current policy including lidems and whoever in the UK parliament.

[Phill]

I nominate Riggerboy for President and Phill for PM.
Don't be putting me into positions of responsibility!! I'd rather be a minister without portfolio, where I can just stick my oar into everything and then blame someone else when it goes tits up.
I seem to remember Riggerboy being nominated for Justice Minister last time this came up.

[Nick Noble]

What would happen if the coalition ended this afternoon would be that Cameron would not longer be PM and Osborne would no longer be in charge of the economy. The Lib Dems would, to the rejoicing of most of their followers and the saving of their party, form a coalition with Labour.

Or have another election.

The financial markets, bankers, ratings agencies etc are all happy.

The people do not seem to be so.

If the coalition ended this afternoon Cameron would still be PM, Osborne would still be Chancellor, they would remain as such until Cameron resigns as PM.

He would not have to resign provided he can get a majority in a vote of confidence in the HoC, a not impossible task. If he does not get a vote of confidence then in all probability he would resign as PM. At that point the Milliband would likely be asked to see if he could form a Government.

That will be a very hard task for him to do, and even if the Liberal Democrats were to agree to form a coalition with Labour the maths of then getting a vote of confidence through for such a government within the 14 days required in the HoC is very tough.

So in all likelihood there would be a general election.

And that takes us right back to the simple fact that the most likely outcome of another general election in the next few months would be another hung parliament, and another coalition government.

Like it or not the government we have today will be in office until May 2015 when there will be another general election, the outcome of which will probably be another hung parliament.

[John Little]

Sorry Nick - I can't agree that the outcome of a general election would be a hung parliament.

From the papers I read it seems apparent that there are thousands upon thousands of former Lib-Dems who are sick at heart for they did not vote for what they have got.

I think it far more likely that there would be a polarisation to left or right and that a vote for the centre would be regarded as letting the least desired party in.

This effect would favour Labour across the UK.

Truly, though I respect your obvious honesty and integrity, as I do most Lib Dems I have met, I think that the leadership has made an almost fatal mistake and that unless they take steps to rectify it now, that another 70 years in the wilderness will follow this.

For the Lib Dems to survive as a party you need an Ashdown - not a Clegg.

[ducati]

Personally, I don't think two years is anything like long enough to sort out the total balls up they were landed with. Some bits of it are still going the wrong way. In the midst of all that, they still have the courage to tackle long term issues that will course disasters in future, if not addressed now, long after this Government is gone.

Patience people, you can't change the gov. like you do your underwear.

The problems I see are in the grasping at short term issues to wail about, rather than looking for the holistic approach.

[Nick Noble]

Sorry Nick - I can't agree that the outcome of a general election would be a hung parliament.

From the papers I read it seems apparent that there are thousands upon thousands of former Lib-Dems who are sick at heart for they did not vote for what they have got.

I think it far more likely that there would be a polarisation to left or right and that a vote for the centre would be regarded as letting the least desired party in.

This effect would favour Labour across the UK.

Truly, though I respect your obvious honesty and integrity, as I do most Lib Dems I have met, I think that the leadership has made an almost fatal mistake and that unless they take steps to rectify it now, that another 70 years in the wilderness will follow this.

For the Lib Dems to survive as a party you need an Ashdown - not a Clegg.

Well John

You may care to take a look at http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/ they have good coverage of all the UK polls, you can get into as much detail as you like, but the bottom line is that the Labour and Conservative parties are neck and neck and have been for quite some time. Currently the average shows as 38/38 and libdems 10.

I know none of us ever believes the polls, but generally they are fairly reliable as to general trends, if not spot on with percentages.

It's also worth looking at actual by-election results across the country, LibDems are not doing as badly as the polling shows!

Quite a decent collection of results here : http://conservativehome.blogs.com/localgovernment/byelection_results/

[John Little]

Thank you Nick - interesting stuff.

I do seem to recall though that just before the general election Lib Dem support stood at 26-28%. 10% is not a good figure for them.

Well we shall see in the long run. I have no objection at all to traditional Liberal policies but what is being done now is rather too Whiggish for my taste,

[pinotnoir]

The harshest lesson of this Coalition?
When Liberal Democrats lose their moral compass they will be Conservatives.

[John Little]

Not necessarily so. The right wing of the Lib Dems and the left wing of the Conservative party have always been pretty close - almost interchangeable. Clegg is on the right of the party.

If the right loses control - as they well might - then it's a whole new game.

[tonkatojo]

The harshest lesson of this Coalition?
When Liberal Democrats lose their moral compass they will be Conservatives.

It looks like some have found their backbones at last http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17330939