View Full Version : Taxing good causes out of existence!
gillygirl
17-Feb-12, 12:25
I read with interest and not a little confusion about the new "stealth tax" to be applied to free events of every sort. In times such as these is it really in the best interests of this area to potentially pull the plug on so many fundraising and exhibition events for the sake of filling the Council coffers a little more? By all means have greater control over very large free events where sponsors' or attendees' small contributions would probably cover the cost of a licence, but to penalise small events that offer somewhere for people to go, some form of entertainment, raise money for cash strapped charities, or just offer something interesting to go and see to get us through the rubbish weather sometimes, is disgraceful. I cannot see the logic or the fairness of this, nor do I think we should just accept this cavalier tactic from the Highland Council, when other councils do not impose this tax. Come on Council, drop the tax![disgust][disgust][disgust]
Deadmans Sunshine
17-Feb-12, 12:39
truly disgusting. seems very unfair and quite honestly, unnecessary. local non profit groups will suffer greatly and struggle to continue. its hard enough to run non profit groups without losing more money on greedy tax. sad day and age. truly is.
Bill Fernie
18-Feb-12, 15:05
I read with interest and not a little confusion about the new "stealth tax" to be applied to free events of every sort. In times such as these is it really in the best interests of this area to potentially pull the plug on so many fundraising and exhibition events for the sake of filling the Council coffers a little more? By all means have greater control over very large free events where sponsors' or attendees' small contributions would probably cover the cost of a licence, but to penalise small events that offer somewhere for people to go, some form of entertainment, raise money for cash strapped charities, or just offer something interesting to go and see to get us through the rubbish weather sometimes, is disgraceful. I cannot see the logic or the fairness of this, nor do I think we should just accept this cavalier tactic from the Highland Council, when other councils do not impose this tax. Come on Council, drop the tax![disgust][disgust][disgust]
I would like to correct the statement that this is a cavalier tactic by Highland Council. This changes comes from an amendment passed by Scottish Government to Section 41 of Civic Government (Scotland) 1982 by the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010. MSP's passed this amendment. All councils are responsible for applying the act in their own areas.
This is not something that has come before councillors but in view of the contacts i have received by telephone and speaking to a number of people I have been looking in to the matter.
Changes to Public Entertainment Licensing:
A Public Entertainment Licence will be required for the above types of Entertainment being provided on or after 1 April 2012 even if there is no charge (money or otherwise) for the Entertainment.
I have spoken to one of the council's officers in charge of licensing and they will produce some guidance. If anyone is in doubt they can go to the licensing officers based in Wick for Caithness. From what I was told the charges are to cover the costs involved in licenses. Some events will not be caught such as Galas but it would be best to check for any individual events until groups are sure they are still exempt. The officer told me they are receiving many enquiries at the moment.
The Civic Scotland Act covers many areas of life and councils are responsible for enforcement of the act but did not enact it or make any of the amendments. That is the responsibility of Scottish Government. Having said that officers are trying to interpret the various sections to try to ensure they do not make unnecessary burdens if they do not have to. However there will be some changes they cannot avoid and must apply the act as set out with the latest amendments.
There does not appear to be information on the Highland council web site but I was given to understand officers are working on this. I have therefor looked at Glasgow city council web site and found their guidance as follows -
WHAT IS THE EFFECT OF THIS CHANGE?
From 1 April 2012 premises providing any of the types of Entertainment specified above will
require a Public Entertainment Licence even if there is no charge for the Entertainment or use of
any facilities.
For example, the following types of Premises/Event will require a Licence from 1 April 2012
• Community Events such as Local Festivals
• Free Entry Museums and Exhibition Spaces
• Public Fireworks Displays
WHY IS THE CHANGE HAPPENING?
The Scottish Government has made this change because it believes that it is necessary for all
public entertainment events, particularly large scale events, to be licensed even where there is no
charge for entry or use of any facilities.
ARE GALA DAYS, CHURCH HALLS ETC STILL EXEMPT?
Yes. The Council has already decided that the following types of Premises/Events should be
exempt from the requirement to hold a Public Entertainment Licence:
• Gala Days, Fetes and Outdoor Events of a similar small scale nature
• Church Halls
• School Halls
These Premises/Events will continue to be exempt after 1 April 2012. There are also a number of exceptions set out in Section 41 of the Act from the need to hold a
Public Entertainment Licence, for example, where certain other types of licence are already held
such as a Cinema Licence or a Premises Licence (if the entertainment is being provided within the
licensed hours set out in the Premises Licence).
IS IT ILLEGAL TO OPERATE WITHOUT A LICENCE?
Yes. In terms of Section 7 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, it is a criminal offence to
carry out an activity without the relevant Licence.
The maximum penalty is a fine of £20,000, six months imprisonment or both.
I also spoke the the ward managers office in Wick regarding the matter. They are aware of the changes and are in discussion with the licensing officer to find out if a license applied for by the council for Market Square could be used to cover all events in the square and mean that all groups would need to do in that instance was have their name added to the license.
The amendment to the legislation is an added burden to organising events for voluntary and charitable groups and I will continue to look into this matter now that it has been brought to my attention. The matter has not been brought before councillors as it is an amendment to existing legislation enacted by government. I will try to ensure that officers applying the legislation do not apply it where it is not required under the act. From my conversations that is what they will try to do but I was told that inevitably a range of groups will be required to get a license even where the event is free. This is not a tax raising issue and the licenses are charged at rates to cover the costs of issuing the licenses. The changes are in part I understand brought about to try to cover events that might give rise to problems such as one off events that happened in Glasgow where considerable trouble erupted at one event that was not organised directly by a bona fide group. I have not yet located the sources of the debates or discussion relating to precisely how the changes came to be made. The Act covers many aspects of civic life and recent amendments to the same act relate to sales of scrap metals due to the rise in metal thefts causing problems in many areas from railways to cemeteries and more.
My main concerns arise from the increased burdens on groups trying to add value to our community by putting on entertainment, talks and lectures and many other events that add something to our way of life. I will be making more enquiries over the next couple of weeks to see if the act is applied sensitively.
Deadmans Sunshine
18-Feb-12, 16:43
thank you for the information. i am curious, why? why does the government believe these need liscenses. this will do far more damage to the community as a whole. in fact its very damaging. local groups, charity events, indeed events for good causes will be extremely put off. thurso and caithnesswill suffer for this. dont think this was thought through with rural communities in mind.:~(
gillygirl
18-Feb-12, 17:36
I apologise for falsely accusing the Council of being cavalier, but it does seem even more pointless to create a licence which only pays for itself and seems to serve no purpose at all! However, many thanks Bill for picking up on this. Some clarity is all that is required so that those of us who organise free events can know where we stand. A simple list of exempt categories would be a real help as no one wants to spend many unpaid hours filling in unneccesary paperwork. Having read your post I feel a lot more at ease with this situation and hopeful that charity events will remain uaffected. I look forward to reading an update from you when the situation has been clarified.:)
I spoke to the Senior Licensing Officer in Inverness about this on behalf of a local organisation and he sent me this link
http://www.highland.gov.uk/businessinformation/licensing/civicgovernmentlicensing/civ-gov-lic-public-ent.htm . I'm not sure that the forms, guidance etc. here are the new ones though, I suspect they are current. The advice on the guidance link did not agree with advice someone else received from their Legal Manager in Skye and I understand there is considerable confusion within the Council on exactly what is happening. They were holding a meeting to discuss this on Friday afternoon so I guess nothing is yet set in stone and I'll be phoning again on Monday to see where we are.
North Light
18-Feb-12, 18:45
After a quick search of the Highland Council website I found this page.
http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2012/January/2012-01-16-02.htm
Chairman of The Highland Council’s Licensing Committee, Councillor Peter Corbett said: “Throughout the Highlands a wide range of events and activities take place each year and we don’t want people to fall foul of the new legislation. Changes mean that even if no charge is being made for people to attend, a Public Entertainment Licence will be required. I would urge anyone planning to organise an event in 2012 to ensure they have all the necessary paperwork.”
Only those activities which the Council have resolved to licence are affected. These include:
• billiard, snooker and pool halls;
• premises used for exhibitions;
• premises used for fireworks displays;
• premises used for health and fitness activities, including gymnasia and saunas;
• premises used for laser displays and war games;
• premises used for agricultural shows;
• premises used for Highland Games;
• premises used for Go-Karting;
• premises used for bungee-jumping and bungee-running;
• premises used for bouncy castles or similar structures;
• discos and dances;
• musical performances;
• lectures and illustrated talks;
• concerts;
• circuses;
• fairgrounds;
• travelling shows;
• travelling funfairs;
• Sun Tanning premises.
North Light
18-Feb-12, 18:56
Another interesting link with respect to Glasgow.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/council-moves-to-end-new-law-threat-to-city-art-scene.16747610
The comments from Ms Sturgeon are particularly interesting.
Ms Sturgeon said the new legislation "was in response to concerns that had been raised about the lack of control local licensing authorities had over large scale free-to-enter events such as raves".
She added: "However, it is important to stress the new law does not mean local licensing authorities are required to insist on free-to-enter events having a Public Entertainment Licence. The discretion lies entirely with the local licensing authority – in this case Glasgow – to determine what types of events they license.
"As I understand it, there is nothing whatsoever in the law to prevent Glasgow from exempting all or certain categories of free-to-enter events from the requirement to have a public entertainment licence." She said she had asked for an urgent meeting the council's licensing department to discuss her "concerns".
Deadmans Sunshine
18-Feb-12, 21:54
So in a theory nothing could change. Only if some uncharitable characters deem to tax said events for no reason. Public entertainment tax for fitness and health. That's almost close to the old cynical saying of tax me for breathing why don't you. Highland games. May as well tax Scottish culture. Bouncy castles, there goes child orientated fun, the local inflatable company will be hurt. Lectures taxed? Stunting further educational opportunities. Traveling fun fairs, bye bye sideshows. Concerts, local music and young groups, dare I say more. This truly is....... Wrong. There is no other word for it. I saw a tax on museums earlier. Really, a place to celebrate history education and culture taxed, just for sharing it for free with the public. How long till caithness horizons is forced to charge at the door. Something needs to be done by our representatives.
Deadmans Sunshine
18-Feb-12, 21:58
Just a thought, this is like a physical form of sopa and atca. Control and censorship of organized events. Bit dramatic, I agree but in a way frighteningly similar.
The Council has already decided that the following types of Premises/Events should be
exempt from the requirement to hold a Public Entertainment Licence:
• Gala Days, Fetes and Outdoor Events of a similar small scale nature
• Church Halls
• School Halls
These Premises/Events will continue to be exempt after 1 April 2012.
In January, the local paper had an article about all these changes, along with a contact number for the licensing office in Wick. I called the Wick office to ask how this would affect our community group and the advice was different to what Bill has outlined above.
I was told that churches are exempt only if the event relates to the church. So if we hired the hall for an evening event, we would require an entertainment licence.
If you have a let agreement for use of a school hall, any public event staged during your let will require an entertainment licence.
The public entertainment licence is venue-specific. This means you can't apply for a single licence to cover an event held in the Assembly Rooms, followed by one in Caithness Horizons. You need 2 licences for that.
The application form is very detailed and needs a lot of information on layout, stewarding, etc. In the case of churches, it would make a lot more sense if external organisations using the venue were able to pull together to prepare a licence application for their chosen venue for the maximum 3 years and share the cost.
I find the Highland Council's position on school halls quite difficult to understand. Why does the Council grant lets for premises without having an entertainment licence already in place for the venues? If Pulteney People's Project can have one in place for organisations wishing to let their new venue, is it really too much to expect the Council to do the same?
It's the venue that has to have the licence not the hirer. Our village halls etc have been running events for generations without mishap, now, because an event in Glasgow went out of control all have to suffer regardless. The Scottish Government have given individual councils the power to exempt or adjust charges but Highland seem to have applied a blanket charge with very confusing guidelines, an 11 page application. not to mention page after page of additional information, plans, certificates etc, not so much a hammer to crack a small nut but a garrotte to strangle the life out of small initiatives the organisers of which have quite enough to do without yet another burden on their willing shoulders.
I'm afraid I can't comment on the situation regarding village halls as I have no experience of hiring one. The advice I received from the Council office was that the hirer is responsible for acquiring an entertainment licence for their event if the venue does not already have one in place.
Churches and schools don't need one for their own activities, leaving the hirer to apply for one to stay within the law. It is crazy that you can pay through the nose for a Highland Council let of school premises, only to fork out more money to Highland Council for an entertainment licence because the Council don't require the school's own events to be licenced.
Call me simple ‘cos I’m easily confuddled. As I see it whenever anyone plans a gathering which they wish to hold out-with their own home they’re going to have to apply for permission (a licence) to do so. This means they may have to pay a fee to get this permission and the fee will be to cover the cost of receiving this permission. I suspect a money-making scam to keep someone in a job.
Now I imagine a premier league football club or a similar large event promoter will have procedures in place and staff to administer their ‘requests for permission.’ I can even imagine the Rotary Firework Display and the various Highland Games will have procedures and volunteers to apply for ‘permission.’ They may even have the funds to pay for it. However if every party, jumble sale, car boot sale, little league footie match or Easter Egg hunt is going to need permission then the council have gone too far. Even if these smaller scale events are ‘exempt’ the organisers will still have to speak to the licensing authority and probably fill in a ream of paperwork anyway. If any measure is designed to stifle community activity and deter voluntary activity then I suggest this is it.
~~~Tides~~~
20-Feb-12, 11:15
Yet another piece of either shockingly ill-thought-out or draconian legislation from the SNP government (or probably both). I am slightly inclined to agree with independence, but the SNPs record on law and justice has been quite frankly terrifying.
I see 'lectures and illustrated talks' in the Highland Counsel list above, to take an example. Paying £100 odd pounds to talk for free seems tantamount to a breach of right to free speech (European Convention Article 10). And all this because a rave was out of control is Glasgow!? Any law that is passed by Holyrood that is incompatable with Convention Rights or EU law is invalid, and not law (Scotland Act 1998). But obviously someone would have to challenge it in the courts first.
I wonder if dirt like this gets passed at Holyrood due to the complete lack of an effective opposition?
And the cost of these licences? Well according to the Highland council website the costs range from just over £100 to nearly £11000. The cost of a temporary licence is 50% of these, so if you are planning a big bash that needs a licence start saving now - the realy big costs are for commercial events but a non commercial outdoor event is going to cost you £374 even at 50% that is a huge wack for charities to have to cover!
Bill Fernie
20-Feb-12, 20:04
I spoke again to one of the council's head licensing officers. He is concerned to apply the changes to the law that were announced. However there is realisation that to require licenses for events that are free and were not required to have on previously is adding an extra burden. As stated previously the council did not bring the change in. The councils licensing listing has remained largely unchanged since 1998. Many council's licensing officers did point out the affects the change would have but there does not appear to have been much attention paid to those warnings.
He and his colleagues are looking to bring out a new set of definitions to lay before the next council and attempts will be made to lessen the impact on so many groups such as the on mentioned above - lectures and illustrated talks. The new list and definitions cannot be put before the present council as there is not enough time. The process is required to have a 3 month public consultation period and the council cannot change that. It may take from 9 to 12 months to bring in any changes.
I have made my views know to the licensing officer and if re-elected will take them forward to the TECS committee in the next council. Meantime I intend to speak to the chief executive to see if there are other ways to mitigate the regulations where they are found to be unduly adding burdens to groups.
Deadmans Sunshine
20-Feb-12, 22:09
anything you can do to lessen the impact of this, would be greatly appreciated. there is no doubt in anyones mind that this can potentially and greatly damage small community groups and good causes. local business and education also.
Tugmistress
20-Feb-12, 22:40
So if i go ahead with a planned exhibition of photography at Horizons again next year this means i will have to obtain a licence?
I was just thinking the same, I suppose I will have to look into it for a rabbit show and dependant on cost it may not be cost effective.
gillygirl
21-Feb-12, 11:47
At least this looks as though we can carry on as normal for this year with events that have been planned for many months in advance, but the spectre is still hanging over us. Thanks to Bill for clarifying the situation and taking it on board so that we can at least expect accurate guidelines. Hopefully the council will at least decide to shorten the application form considerably, and to regard events where part or all of the proceeds are directed towards a recognised charity as exempt. This would at least leave village halls free to carry on with their own events but still makes it difficult for any other groups to give us a little free entertainment! We can only hope that council takes the European approach and decides what is best for Caithness, not what works for Glasgow!
As a Caithness musician of 30 years plus I have to just shake my head at this nonsense! If the council is so keen to collect money maybe they should look a little closer at their spending instead of stealth taxing what little resources we have left for entertainment and gatherings, no wonder there are fewer bands on the go and small events will disappear too, this is nonsense and a breach of our rights!
The Highland Council has NEVER done anything I can recall in the last 30+ years to help the rich musical talent we have here in Caithness, oh sure they will fork out thousands to bring a classical trio from Norway or Denmark but if its local and it moves it needs a licence! Can't they see they are suffocating us with rules,regulations, taxes and license fees.
I have been in conflict with the council for years over their seemingly endless need to bleed any new venture dry until it is dead in the water! They can't blame central government because they have the descretion to not impliment these licencing laws but the council as usual exercise ALL the POWER they have at their disposal to it fullest!
I for one will not be complying with anything that breaches my human rights and they can use their much loved money to persue me as they wish! I have had enough!
I have to pay the SAME licence fee to work for 2-3 hours a week (which means I don't have to claim benefits) as a company earning thousands a week, this is forcing me to pack in my job cause I just can't afford the £200 they DEMAND and it will end up costing society a lot more if I'm sitting on the dole! unlike bigger companies who willingly pay this fee knowing that it kills off any competition from small business.
Whoever is coming up with these ideas of licencing everything that moves should be taken to one side and talked too! Aren't they supposed to be working for us! Don't we have a say?...I say they are pushing their luck!
I spoke again to one of the council's head licensing officers. He is concerned to apply the changes to the law that were announced. However there is realisation that to require licenses for events that are free and were not required to have on previously is adding an extra burden. As stated previously the council did not bring the change in. The councils licensing listing has remained largely unchanged since 1998. Many council's licensing officers did point out the affects the change would have but there does not appear to have been much attention paid to those warnings.
He and his colleagues are looking to bring out a new set of definitions to lay before the next council and attempts will be made to lessen the impact on so many groups such as the on mentioned above - lectures and illustrated talks. The new list and definitions cannot be put before the present council as there is not enough time. The process is required to have a 3 month public consultation period and the council cannot change that. It may take from 9 to 12 months to bring in any changes.
I have made my views know to the licensing officer and if re-elected will take them forward to the TECS committee in the next council. Meantime I intend to speak to the chief executive to see if there are other ways to mitigate the regulations where they are found to be unduly adding burdens to groups.
Thank you Bill for your action and reply, let's hope that the measures can be adjusted to lessen the burdens
Mosser
The Pepsi Challenge
02-Mar-12, 14:48
Here's a link to a meeting held in Edinburgh yesterday discussing the issue:
http://discoverfineacting.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/telling-the-truth-to-power-edinburgh-public-meeting-stop-public-entertainment-licence-changes/
And here's a link to Thurso's very own Kevin Williamson's opinion piece on the subject in yesterday's Edinburgh Evening News:
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/opinion/kevin_williamson_fees_will_kill_off_culture_at_gra ssroots_1_2144435
North Light
07-Mar-12, 12:25
Some more news stories on this subject.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-17270411
and
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/music/news-and-features/april-fool-comes-early-the-day-the-licensing-law-debate-tipped-over-into-absurdity-1-2156094
North Light
07-Mar-12, 12:32
Also from the John O'Groat Journal
http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/News/Councillors-set-to-veto-event-licence-fees-06032012.htm
Which I hope shows that common sense does ultimately prevail!
Thanks for the links North Light. It is an interesting article by Andrew Eaton-Lewis.
However IMO we should replace the word 'Licence' with 'Permission' since this is the thin edge of the wedge being foisted on us by an increasingly authoritarian SNP grubbiement. It won't be long before we'll have to have permission to meet friends and neighbours outside our own homes.
I agree, there seems to be very little left that can be done without having to apply for a license at great cost! It is high time we started putting our foot down and "just say no!".
Whitewater
07-Mar-12, 23:34
It seems that if this law goes ahead it will be the death of everything, local football and rugby club matches, school sports, tennis, badmington, squash, table tennis and bowling club competitions, just to name but a of few the things we take for granted.
This is absolute nonesense, glad to see from the link given by North Light to the John O' Groat Journal that at least the Highland Council seem to realise the implications.
Bill Fernie
10-Mar-12, 16:48
After some turmoil caused by the potential changes many Highland councillors including myself had been making overtures regarding the application of the new regulations.
the council has reached a common sense approach to it in the end.
A release was issued earlier this week as follows -
The Highland Council has assured organisers of free-to-enter events that there will be no change to the current licensing arrangements when new guidance on public entertainment licensing is introduced on 1 April.
This means that there will continue to be no charge for community or fund-raising events that are free to the public to attend.
It also means that events which currently involve an admission fee will continue to require payment for a public entertainment licence.
The Council has apologised for a lack of clarity in its previous guidance on the proposed changes to Public Entertainment Licensing from 1 April, 2012.
Highland Licensing Committee Chairman Councillor Peter Corbett said: "There was widespread concern within the Licensing Committee and the wider Council membership about the prospect of charges being introduced for free-to-enter events organised by community and fund-raising groups.
"The impact on local community groups would have been significant and the last thing in the world we would want is to see an end to all the good work that volunteers undertake in their local towns and villages.
"We have looked at our rules governing public entertainment licensing and I am pleased to assure the public that the status quo will prevail from 1 April. If a group did not need a licence in the past they will not need one after 1 April. Equally, if a group required a licence in the past they will continue to require a licence after 1 April. I hope this gives communities the reassurance they were looking for. "
How gracious of our overlords to "allow" us to put on entertainment for ourselves! However I take acception to this whole "licence" fiasco! A license reqiured for this that and the other, council tax reqiured for "breathing" (and I don't want to hear any nonsense about it paying for services! this is a scam! nothing less! services should be offered at a fee, and those who can't afford those services shouldn't have to pay for them if they don't reqiure them!) road tax reqiured for...well judging the states of the roads it ain't for repairs or maintenance!
I say if the council is struggling for money then maybe the problem isn't how to bleed more money out of people already on, or below the breadline, maybe the problem is with the councils spending! We are tightening our belts enough! time the council stopped putting the squeeze on us and started tightening it's own belt!
I for one have had enough! I'm gonna start having a word with some of these councillors! Not that it will do much good...!
They will be expecting this years council tax to come rolling in soon, watch them grin from ear to ear, ah their pension grows as they wring their grubby little hands!
I wish more people had the balls to stand up to these people and their scummy little pack rat bailiffs without whom the would be lost!
If things don't start to calm down someone will end up getting hurt because of all this agressive behaviour from the council, or as I will call them from now on "The Caithness Mafia". I saw Bailiffs from Scott & co in town yesterday, on council work no doubt, up here to harass some old dear out of her pension money no doubt!!
So the council has backtracked a little on the licence fee, well excuse me if I don't get on my knees and thank you oh great overlords!![evil]
~~~Tides~~~
12-Mar-12, 15:47
This still isn't good enough Bill.
Even for events that do charge, there is still no justification for the imposition of this new licencing regime. On my understanding of the gracious relief that HC has afforded us, if someone still wants to put on a fun-day, or a speaker event, but needs to recoup some of the cost of doing so from those attending, they will still need a public entertainment licence. So a fund-raising activity won't require a licence if it does not charge. How in the name of hell's teeth do most fund-raising events raise funds (or at least prevent making a loss)?! By charging!!
I am fairly sure that raves etc in the central belt that sparked this knee-jerk were free to attend!
Smells like an attempt at a fob-off on the part of the councillors.
What is the position of an organisation putting on an event at either Wick Assembly Rooms or Thurso High School. Is Highland Council applying for a licence for these premises which they own or will it be the organisation using the venue who will need to bear the cost. If it is the latter then it appears that Highland Council are out to make as much money from the various charities, etc as they can and I this is would be morally wrong.
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