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gleeber
10-Feb-12, 18:52
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-16980025
Interesting story. I dont pray myself but if I'm ever in a situation where people do pray, I sit quietly until it's over. After all religions as natural a human activity as building houses.

Corrie 3
10-Feb-12, 19:18
I cant see the point of praying at Council meetings, unless they pray that they never get caught out if they do anything dodgy.
And with all the different religions in the UK now the whole evening would be took up with praying if you had to go through each religion in turn!
Nah, leave the praying for the church on Sundays or at the foot of the bed at night!

C3.................:roll:;)

Alrock
10-Feb-12, 19:27
Good... About time to... All references to religion should be kept well out of politics. Hopefully schools will be next.

golach
10-Feb-12, 19:57
I am an agnostic, and when I attend monthly meetings at the Royal Naval Association and the Royal British Legion a prayer is said at the start of each, in remembrance of all our fallen comrades, I have no problem with that, and its done in public. If some idjit was to go to court to stop me, I would not be happy!!!!!
I also have recited the Selkirk Grace at Burns Suppers, and the Naval Grace at Trafalgar Day dinners, I see nothing wrong in this.

captain chaos
10-Feb-12, 20:02
Religion and Politics...the root of most evil.

golach
10-Feb-12, 20:05
Religion and Politics...the root of most evil.

Politicians and the money trough are the root of all evil

RecQuery
10-Feb-12, 20:12
As I understand it the UK/Britain has no official state religion, most people just make an incorrect inference based on the monarchy and England. England has an official state religion and Scotland through the Scottish parliament has officially declared itself a secular state.

One does wonder how people would react if the council went through the islamic prayer routine before meetings. Having an informal prayer is one thing but to actually make it part of the official meeting is another.

oldmarine
10-Feb-12, 22:54
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-16980025
Interesting story. I dont pray myself but if I'm ever in a situation where people do pray, I sit quietly until it's over. After all religions as natural a human activity as building houses.
Having been wounded in combat during WW2 I quickly remembered my home Christian teachings and have never forgotten them. Strange how some people respond when they see their worthless life fleeing away.

Kenn
10-Feb-12, 23:52
Quite agree gleeber, whether a believer or not, a little respect for others never goes amiss.

luskentyre
11-Feb-12, 02:08
The right decision was made. I'm not one to knock anyone's belief, but religion is a personal thing. It has no place in the workplace.

RecQuery
11-Feb-12, 10:34
Quite agree gleeber, whether a believer or not, a little respect for others never goes amiss.

Like perhaps having the respect not to turn a council meeting into a religious event, if someone believed they had to sacrifice an animal before the meeting would you respect that? if someone believed they had to consume a certain drug before they event would you respect that? How about if they decided to implement policy or changes based on the content of their religious books?

squidge
11-Feb-12, 10:44
Like perhaps having the respect not to turn a council meeting into a religious event,?

I dont think they "turned" it into a religious event - i think it has always been that way. These things tend to continue unopposed until someone takes offence at them - they are part of a "tradition" that we have had which stems from the time that the church was far more important in society than it is now. Traditions are fine but can become outdated and thats what has happened here Prayers should be voluntary - those who wish to partake of that particular tradition should be able to do so with others joining them afterwards or sitting quietly whilst they say their prayers. Its not a BIG issue folks its not like anyone is dying or being chained to their council chair and forced to recite the creed. If it offends people then they should be allowed to excuse themselves or there should be a seperate room for praying in. Its all just a mountian out of a molehill and an example of the lack of tolerance that pervades the whole of society these days and thats tolerence for the pro praying people as well as the anti praying people.

RecQuery
11-Feb-12, 11:01
I dont think they "turned" it into a religious event - i think it has always been that way. These things tend to continue unopposed until someone takes offence at them - they are part of a "tradition" that we have had which stems from the time that the church was far more important in society than it is now. Traditions are fine but can become outdated and thats what has happened here Prayers should be voluntary - those who wish to partake of that particular tradition should be able to do so with others joining them afterwards or sitting quietly whilst they say their prayers. Its not a BIG issue folks its not like anyone is dying or being chained to their council chair and forced to recite the creed. If it offends people then they should be allowed to excuse themselves or there should be a seperate room for praying in. Its all just a mountian out of a molehill and an example of the lack of tolerance that pervades the whole of society these days and thats tolerence for the pro praying people as well as the anti praying people.

When religion or just Christianity becomes tolerant then I'll tolerate them. Lots of them claim to be tolerant but when you bring up certain issues their fundamentalism starts to show. I'll even narrow it down further, when the tolerant Christians start speaking as loudly as the crazy ones and actively opposed them that would be enough.

At what point do we stop becoming tolerant? I go back to my point of having Muslim/Islamic prayers in place or those Christian ones as a lot of the religious people I know would go crazy at something like that.

Also at some point 'Christians' separate themselves so far from the original text so as not to be Christian any more. If you take it literally or even metaphorically the Bible (yes, even the new testament) is not very tolerant.

squidge
11-Feb-12, 11:23
When religion or just Christianity becomes tolerant then I'll tolerate them. Lots of them claim to be tolerant but when you bring up certain issues their fundamentalism starts to show. I'll even narrow it down further, when the tolerant Christians start speaking as loudly as the crazy ones and actively opposed them that would be enough.

At what point do we stop becoming tolerant? I go back to my point of having Muslim/Islamic prayers in place or those Christian ones as a lot of the religious people I know would go crazy at something like that.

Also at some point 'Christians' separate themselves so far from the original text so as not to be Christian any more. If you take it literally or even metaphorically the Bible (yes, even the new testament) is not very tolerant.

Thats a fair point, I was saying that tolerance works both ways and whilst religion has never been tolerant society in general is getting less and less tolerant. I would hope that Islamic prayers or Jewish prayers or meditation could be accomodated at any gethering of people. That would need to be organised by doing it outside the particular gathering or it might become a bit crowded lol. There is a lot to say for taking religion completely out of any sort of public gathering but whether you like it or not the "christian" tradition of saying prayers is part of our heritage and we need to look at how appropriate that is and learn to accommodate people who want to continue without alientating those that dont. In this case I would be in favour of Meeting for prayers in an ante room first then heading into the main chamber

Grace is a good example. There is nothing wrong in principle in giving thanks for the food on the table and it doesnt even need to have a "God" element to it. I was recently at a dinner where people were invited to " take a minute to be thankful we have this wonderful meal for us to enjoy" and we sat for a second and then were ecouraged "please eat". At our recent Burns party ( 71 people this year folks - not quite a record but not far off) a friend was asked to say grace and we got "Bless our bikes and bless our food and hope our women are in the mood" Thats what happens when you let a cheeky biker do the job lol

shazzap
11-Feb-12, 11:31
I agree with Clive Bone.

RecQuery
11-Feb-12, 16:40
Thats a fair point, I was saying that tolerance works both ways and whilst religion has never been tolerant society in general is getting less and less tolerant. I would hope that Islamic prayers or Jewish prayers or meditation could be accomodated at any gethering of people. That would need to be organised by doing it outside the particular gathering or it might become a bit crowded lol. There is a lot to say for taking religion completely out of any sort of public gathering but whether you like it or not the "christian" tradition of saying prayers is part of our heritage and we need to look at how appropriate that is and learn to accommodate people who want to continue without alientating those that dont. In this case I would be in favour of Meeting for prayers in an ante room first then heading into the main chamber

Grace is a good example. There is nothing wrong in principle in giving thanks for the food on the table and it doesnt even need to have a "God" element to it. I was recently at a dinner where people were invited to " take a minute to be thankful we have this wonderful meal for us to enjoy" and we sat for a second and then were ecouraged "please eat". At our recent Burns party ( 71 people this year folks - not quite a record but not far off) a friend was asked to say grace and we got "Bless our bikes and bless our food and hope our women are in the mood" Thats what happens when you let a cheeky biker do the job lol

I'm okay with taking a minute to think about something or to be thankful for something without any religious or spiritual component. Food for example I can be thankful for farming and food technology, to the farmers, food workers, hauliers/transport workers, the cook/chef etc.

I'll admit that Christianity is part of our history, there were lots of things that are part of our history though. Certain ideas are abandoned and forgotten as people and society develop. Some because they just fade away and others because they're outdated and never really made sense.

brandy
11-Feb-12, 18:01
while i was raised christian , and have deep faith in my beliefs i have never had a problem with anyone else s beliefs. in fact i really enjoy learning about others faiths and traditions. however, i do find that in today's society there are huge outcry's in the public that religion should be banned from the public. is a church public? there was many times in our past where those of faith (and this covers many faiths) was ostracized and persecuted for their beliefs. are we going to end up going back to that extreme? I see no harm in prayer, in fact prayer has been found to improve health and brain function. Not on a spiritual mystical level, but purely on a scientific one. (was reading a paper on it a few weeks ago) it is a way of silent reflection of how to get our thoughts, hopes ,dreams, and fears in order. Personally, i like meditation as well.. *G* but often fall asleep while trying! we do need to learn to be more tolerant. in a time where we are suppose to be enlightened, it seems we are more ignorant than ever. for those of us that do not want to pray or worship, that is absoulutly fine. we should accept that. for those of us that want to pray and practice our faith, we should also accept that diversity is what keeps us vibrant and alive, ever changing and growing. the pendulum can swing to far in either direction.. wow i hope that makes sense, my brain is not fully functional today! i may need some quiet reflection myself!

oldmarine
12-Feb-12, 01:27
while i was raised christian , and have deep faith in my beliefs i have never had a problem with anyone else s beliefs. in fact i really enjoy learning about others faiths and traditions. however, i do find that in today's society there are huge outcry's in the public that religion should be banned from the public. is a church public? there was many times in our past where those of faith (and this covers many faiths) was ostracized and persecuted for their beliefs. are we going to end up going back to that extreme? I see no harm in prayer, in fact prayer has been found to improve health and brain function. Not on a spiritual mystical level, but purely on a scientific one. (was reading a paper on it a few weeks ago) it is a way of silent reflection of how to get our thoughts, hopes ,dreams, and fears in order. Personally, i like meditation as well.. *G* but often fall asleep while trying! we do need to learn to be more tolerant. in a time where we are suppose to be enlightened, it seems we are more ignorant than ever. for those of us that do not want to pray or worship, that is absoulutly fine. we should accept that. for those of us that want to pray and practice our faith, we should also accept that diversity is what keeps us vibrant and alive, ever changing and growing. the pendulum can swing to far in either direction.. wow i hope that makes sense, my brain is not fully functional today! i may need some quiet reflection myself!
I subscribe to these comments including the brain part and the quiet reflection!

katarina
13-Feb-12, 10:44
This whole thing is absolute rubbish. It doesn't happen often, but I do agree with Gleeber on this one. This is another example of some power hungry little man screaming that the beliefs of others are infringing on HIS rights. I doubt if any of the polititians are devout
christians. But if it is tradition, let it stand. When I was a child we always started the day with the lords prayer. We recited the words but they meant nothing - it was just a ritual. If that was what they did - so be it. I didn't care one way or the other.
I have a jewish friend, devout in her own religeon, who always sends Christmas cards. BECAUSE SHE RESPECTS OUR TRADITIONS.
Britain is slowly losing her grip!

by the way, I entirely agree with this quote;

This ruling is a nonsense and I hope Mr Bone had no help from the taxpayer in wasting court time. It is perfectly acceptable for the council to have prayers beforehand, asking for guidance in their deliberations. If Mr Bone objected, all he had to do was remain outside the chamber until prayers were over and council business began.

But there's always one who likes to rattle, isn't there?

Gronnuck
13-Feb-12, 12:47
It really annoys me when people get in such a stushie just to get their five minutes of fame, or infamy. We are a diverse society whether we like it or not; we tolerate people of all religions and none. It wouldn't have taken two minutes for Bideford Council to amend the agenda to read, "Item 1 - Two minutes contemplation." Christians can contemplate Christ's message, Muslims could contemplate the Prophet's message, Jedi's could contemplate the ongoing struggle of the 'force' and athiests could have thought about their own spirituality. Any member of the council without a belief system could contemplate the next day's menu if they wanted.
I can't understand why some people have to have things so meticulously boxed and packaged!

pmcd
13-Feb-12, 13:11
Oh dear, Gronnuck - terrible outburst of clear thinking and innate commonsense coupled with generosity of spirit! Sadly, it'll all be far too simple for the Pecksniff Interferers of Calvinistic and Humanistic Removal of all Joyfulness from the Planet.

I can hear them muttering into the fur round their greying anoraks "But if they have contemplation, how will we know they are not thinking subversive religious/pagan/pantheistic/Jedi/atheistic thoughts?? We wouldn't have anything to complain about. And THAT is our duty. To interfere, to deharmonise, to create upset, and, above all, to attempt to be smug and superior."

So, sadly, Gronnuck, no cigar from the PC Brigade (as if!) But undying thanks for coming up with the most elegant and simple of solutions!