Unions and Rights

[David Banks]

At present, we have a bus drivers' strike here in Halifax.
Unions have the right to form, and to have all bus drivers as members of their union. They have the right to withdraw their labour if they cannot get an agreement with their employer (Halifax Regional Municipality) for a "living wage" and reasonable working conditions.

Competing against those rights are the users of the bus system who have needs (rights?) to be able to go to work, go to school, go visit a doctor or hospital or grocery store. Since the strike is proceeding, we can assume that buses have not been declared "essential services" by the Provincial Government.

The Provincial Government (NDP - something like a Labour Party) has so far not become involved in the dispute.

How to you rate the competing Rights in such circumstances ?

P.S.: And, the workers of Halifax Regional Water Commission are ready to walk off the job on 48-hours' notice.

[pmcd]

Of course they have a right to form unions and to take industrial inaction. Of course they have the right to ride roughshod over the public need. They also have responsibilities to go with those rights. The responsibility of ensuring that by their actions they do not price themselves or some of their colleagues out of a job. The responsibilities of not entering the fatal danger zone of the print workers, the dockers, the miners, and those other areas where unions managed to protect working practices which were too expensive, until it was too late and their house of cards collapsed.

When unions worked against exploitation, they had a purpose.

When the unions started bullying the nation, and holding it to ransom, they were on a hiding to nowhere. in the 70s, they showed the true face of power without restraint, of rights without responsibilities. When they actively sought to bring down the government of the day, they worked against the public good, against democracy, and against themselves and their own families.

And now they are in decline. A busted flush. And need to be replaced by Workers' Councils, as in Germany, and which in part were set up by the British (Control Commission Germany) after WW2

Finally, if that wasn't enough, it was the non-democratic union block vote which ensured that half-pint lisping idiot Ed Milliband became the leader of the Labour Party, thus ensuring a straight win for the Conservatives when the next General Election is called.

[RecQuery]

Perhaps the council/city/company has an obligation to provide alternate the service or to not constantly try and reduce what workers get while increasing what they get. This is an old tactic: blaming the workers and unions instead of the managers and the company for creating the situation in the first place. It works on the average person though so they keep using it.

[weezer 316]

Oh the cry from the little people........It just couldnt be workers wanting more for less could it recQuery? It just couldnt possibly ever be that. Ever. Its impossible. Always the system/management/government/big business.

The pensions strikes showed what joe public thinks at times of public sector strikes. The real world hitting I think is what its called.

[golach]

This just shows the need for the Unions
http://www.cas.org.uk/news/2012+news/February/Thousands+of+Scots+workers+being+exploited+by+rogu e+employers

[offcomedun]

This is the uk our brave soldiers have fought and died in many campaigns to preserve our freedom's...and one of those freedoms is the right to protest by means such as a march or a strike against what we feel is unfair....if you don't agree with the right to protest by all means go and live in Syria but if you are just moaning for the sake of moaning then by all means feel FREE to protest about it.

[John Little]

I completely agree with PMCD and would like to add a rider.

In 1906 when discussing the rights and wrongs of giving the unions back the right to strike without being sued for it, most of the Liberal Party was against it, only to be over- ridden by the Prime Minister who wanted to keep a deal going with the new Labour Party. The possibility of anti democratic forces in the unions holding the country to ransom was present in their minds - as indeed it was in the minds of the Syndicalists who wanted to run the Labour Party.

By the late 1970s the Syndicalists had almost succeeded in their aim; it was the under-rated Neil Kinnock who stopped them.

But Workers' Councils, in the shape of local Trades Boards were what the Liberals brought in to try to balance things out in an attempt to put a brake on the Unions. They might have worked, as in Germany, and the history of industrial relations in this country might have been very different. But at the insistence of the Conservatives, senior partners in a Con/Lib coalition, the Boards were abolished in 1921 by the very man who had brought them in - Lloyd George.

Surely by now it is obvious that some sort of partnership arrangement between representatives of government, unions and employers is far more productive than confrontation, however emotionally appealing the latter might seem?

[Phill]

There definitely needs some form of independent arbitration / negotiation enforced onto unions & employers at a very early stage in wage rows.
Unions have their place to protect workers rights, ensure they get proper treatment and appropriate H&S cover etc. but shouldn't get involved in pay unless it's about inequalities or illegal (i.e. below minimum wage).
It inevitably falls into a power struggle and a decent and equitable outcome is secondary, the Union masters get there pay regardless, the workers loose money on strike, the employers loose business furthering risk to employees. And if a pay rise is awarded it often doesn't cover the wages lost while on strike.

[weezer 316]

This is the uk our brave soldiers have fought and died in many campaigns to preserve our freedom's...and one of those freedoms is the right to protest by means such as a march or a strike against what we feel is unfair....if you don't agree with the right to protest by all means go and live in Syria but if you are just moaning for the sake of moaning then by all means feel FREE to protest about it.

I dont know why when unions are criticised its takes as some affront to your freedom. Please, explain this too me.

Ill clarify for future reference, although I can see myself typing this again in a few weeks.

You should have the right to join a union.
The union should ensure its members (infact all workers) are not exploited for big business benefit, like chimney sweeps for instance.
You should have a right to strike otherwise you are powerless and thats wrong.

But........

Unions are not about this any longer by and large. Very few workers, if any, are "exploited" and the unions seem to have a complete inability to adjust their viewpoint on things when the wider world around them is changing. The pensions strike earlier is case in point. Furthermore, some are intent on making political statements at their members financial expense, yet they are without any real political responsibility.

Infact, I would go as far as to say the unions have nobody but themselves to blame for the widespread distrust they suffer from after the mess they made of the 70s where they would strike over anything and everything.

[Phill]

....Unions are not about this any longer by and large. Very few workers, if any, are "exploited" and the unions seem to have a complete inability to adjust their viewpoint on things when the wider world around them is changing. The pensions strike earlier is case in point. Furthermore, some are intent on making political statements at their members financial expense, yet they are without any real political responsibility.I very much agree. For a very short while I was a union member because that was what 'you had to do'. Until during an annual wage negotiation they were intent on strike, and a coordinated strike with other unions too.
Short version is the unions put in place ridiculous demands to the employer and effectively rigging the vote for a strike. End result was a net loss to the workers, many of them on relatively low wages suffering the biggest loss.
But the heavily salaried union masters wanted to show they wield some form of power, so they wanted everyone on strike to get the headlines.

[weezer 316]

Exactly Phil. The holidays, health and safety etc are all now in place as unionised workforce has helped get them there. But its now a shambles. Exploitation takes place in isolated incidents for sure, and the union helps in those cases, but almost to a man every worker in this country has benefits, laws and co-operative agreements in place to protect their rights.

I really, off the top of my head (doesnt mean they dont exist), think of any companies who have mistreated all their staff and violated these laws and not had their commupance. Can somone furnish me with one?

[RecQuery]

Exactly Phil. The holidays, health and safety etc are all now in place as unionised workforce has helped get them there. But its now a shambles. Exploitation takes place in isolated incidents for sure, and the union helps in those cases, but almost to a man every worker in this country has benefits, laws and co-operative agreements in place to protect their rights.

I really, off the top of my head (doesnt mean they dont exist), think of any companies who have mistreated all their staff and violated these laws and not had their commupance. Can somone furnish me with one?

I have problems with the people at the top of unions, but that's the whole power corrupts thing.

Ever work for BT, Manpower or Sitel. I've worked for all three in the past. I ignored the bad stuff from all three and just got on with it because I wasn't planning on staying with any of them long term. but I tell you there was/is some crap going on there and not just in Thurso.

There have been examples in the new also about different companies.

[weezer 316]

I worked for manpower for 7 years. I was in the CWU whilst there also. The local union rep was Steve munro who is a fine chap. But the union themselves were at times a bit of a joke. Just after I left there was a strike threat from BT workers. They wanted the manpower workers to strike also in "solidarity" with their BT collegues who were getting 4k a year more (in some cases more) for doing exactly the same job......and to make matter worse it was a strike over pay when the manpower hadnt had a raise for over 3 years at that point!

The BT staff were getting a guarenteed pay rise every year in the mean time.........

The Irony of it all was beyond the CWU clearly.

[RecQuery]

I worked for manpower for 7 years. I was in the CWU whilst there also. The local union rep was Steve munro who is a fine chap. But the union themselves were at times a bit of a joke. Just after I left there was a strike threat from BT workers. They wanted the manpower workers to strike also in "solidarity" with their BT collegues who were getting 4k a year more (in some cases more) for doing exactly the same job......and to make matter worse it was a strike over pay when the manpower hadnt had a raise for over 3 years at that point!

The BT staff were getting a guarenteed pay rise every year in the mean time.........

The Irony of it all was beyond the CWU clearly.

The problem with the CWU is that it was too overarching, too many jobs and positions could come under its remit. Lots of people could have been classed as a communication worker and as such those from the areas of the union leaders or from the biggest bases got all the support.

I was last at BT/Manpower up here around 2003. The rep then was okay, just had to put up with the usual crap of BT/Manpower saying they were going to offshore all the jobs. They would basically mention this every 6 months to beat people down and stop them trying to get motivated and try to get better working conditions. I hear someone from the Manpower office is now the union rep, that doesn't sound like a conflict of interest at all(!).

I could understand BT workers complaining but not the demand for solidarity given the disparity unless they reciprocated. This is sometimes used as a tactic though get full time workers fighting with contractors or consultants or threatening full time workers with being replaced by contractors.

[offcomedun]

I was a shop steward myself and spent countless hours helping the people I represented understand their employment rights,making sure the employer also understood what it was and was not allowed to do (and yes unbelievable as it may seem the employer a local authority did not know ) .
I worked along side many other devoted stewards who also gave their time and energy and for no return I might add.
My Efforts as a steward resulted in robust ,effective safety practices being actioned by my employer and my attention to detail and determination won pay rises including new allowances and a new working rota which gave staff 5 days off at a time whilst they never had to work more than 4 days in a row.
I do agree with you that the unions may have lost their way at the top but the staff on the ground are still very much needed especially in the tough economic trough we are now facing.