View Full Version : no more Christmas?
I hear Debenams are not having a christmas display this year in fear of offending non-christians. I hear christmas cards will no longer have the sentiments 'Happy Christmas' on them, or have any religious sentiments for the same reason.
Are non-christians really offended? or is all this in the minds over-zealous anti-prejuduce brigade?
Maybe we should pay attention to the words of Ben Stein.
Quote; I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish.
And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those
beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel
threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are:
Christmas trees.
It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas"
to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me
in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all
brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't
bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key
intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche,
it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.
I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't
think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.
I hear Debenams are not having a christmas display this year in fear of offending non-christians. I hear christmas cards will no longer have the sentiments 'Happy Christmas' on them, or have any religious sentiments for the same reason.
Are non-christians really offended? or is all this in the minds over-zealous anti-prejuduce brigade?
Maybe we should pay attention to the words of Ben Stein.
Quote; I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish.
And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those
beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel
threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are:
Christmas trees.
It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas"
to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me
in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all
brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't
bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key
intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche,
it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.
I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't
think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.
Political correctness has reached ridiculous length and especially since most fair mind people from other religions do not object to Christian festival and indeed enjoy those temselves. We teach children of the age of 4 or 5 about Diwali, etc. and then think we should forget about Christmas - on which planet do those PC people live?! Hallowe'en good on display is OK for Debenhams but Christmas display is not - their actions speak for themselves and tell you much more about the bosses at Debenhams than about the diverse nature and people who make up our largely sensible and fair minded society.
David from Stockport
03-Nov-06, 13:47
I work for a large retailer not unlike Debenhams and we have our xmas decs up and last year i had to play santa walking around and giving out chocolates but yes it has changed to be more politicaly correct . At the branch i used to work at they still had the staff xmas lunch panto last year but at my branch this did not happen we just had music instead so we would not upset our many ethnic staff - mind you i dont think they would have minded to much its just some white Brittish member of staff trying to be pc . We have a prayer room for anybody and although we have had some ethnics who want us to change to suite them they have been in the minority. The other day it was in the paper that some c of e vicker was not having a rememerance service as it was not ethnicaly inclusive enough (bet the ethnics didnt complain) We should keep to our own traditions if others dont want to join in so what . On the subject of pc - as santa - i was pressganged into it eventhough i look nothing like santa just becouse i have a piece of paper that says i dont have a criminal record but i wasnt supposed to approach children but let them come to me , couldnt give them a hug , hold there hand, or touch in anyway. Finaly i work in a area with a massive asian population and a third of our customers are asian , i gave out loads of chocolate to the asian kids and parents - they loved santa!!! At our xmas party last year fair enough some asians stayed away but lots attended in there national dress they danced the night away and seemed to enjoy themselves . We Brits need to carry on as always -immigrants chose to come to this country and we should nt change for fear of upsetting them but let them join in with our customs .
I work for a large retailer not unlike Debenhams and we have our xmas decs up and last year i had to play santa walking around and giving out chocolates but yes it has changed to be more politicaly correct . At the branch i used to work at they still had the staff xmas lunch panto last year but at my branch this did not happen we just had music instead so we would not upset our many ethnic staff - mind you i dont think they would have minded to much its just some white Brittish member of staff trying to be pc . We have a prayer room for anybody and although we have had some ethnics who want us to change to suite them they have been in the minority. The other day it was in the paper that some c of e vicker was not having a rememerance service as it was not ethnicaly inclusive enough (bet the ethnics didnt complain) We should keep to our own traditions if others dont want to join in so what . On the subject of pc - as santa - i was pressganged into it eventhough i look nothing like santa just becouse i have a piece of paper that says i dont have a criminal record but i wasnt supposed to approach children but let them come to me , couldnt give them a hug , hold there hand, or touch in anyway. Finaly i work in a area with a massive asian population and a third of our customers are asian , i gave out loads of chocolate to the asian kids and parents - they loved santa!!! At our xmas party last year fair enough some asians stayed away but lots attended in there national dress they danced the night away and seemed to enjoy themselves . We Brits need to carry on as always -immigrants chose to come to this country and we should nt change for fear of upsetting them but let them join in with our customs .
Very good and sensible response by you and your empoyer seems to have the balance right.
changilass
03-Nov-06, 13:57
This is PC gone mad, I am all for folks of all walks integrating, but surely part of that is accepting others traditions, especially those of the host country.
When we finally get a child, I will not be telling them there is a santa, just cos I don't want to lie to them, but if they believe in santa I would also not shatter their dreams.
Kids of the future are going to be missing out on a lot of fun traditions of this country because of the pc brigade and it aint fair[disgust]
Personally I find this sort of Politically Correct rubbish highly insulting.
How dare these people assume that anybody who is not Christian is so pathetic that they are incapable of accepting the beliefs and traditions of others?
I suspect that in another day and age they would have been of the belief that such sections of humanity were ignorant savages in need of being “Civilised”.
Although the ideas are reversed, the mind set is exactly the same, "We are superior beings who have to ensure that these lesser mortals are protected for their own sake!"
I wonder how they would feel if they were treated in the same condescending and insulting manner?
Naefearjustbeer
03-Nov-06, 15:59
As far as I am concerned the shops can stop putting up christmas displays. Not beacause it offends folk but because I get sick of going into shops to have christmas jingles playing and all these displays everywhere from now till christmas. Christmas is not about spending money in shops. It is a time for folk to celebrate the birth of Jesus. If you dont believe dont send cards or presents, carry on as normal and complain that all the shops are having a bank holiday and you cannot get out to buy a pint of milk or a loaf of bread. If fact if you are a non believer maybe you should volenteer to give up your holidays to allow shops to stay open and life to continue as per any other day, and I dont want to hear anyone complaining when you dont get any cards or pressies. It is a christian event not an excuse for every shop and credit card company to squeeze every last penny out of your wallet/credit limit/ overdraft just to keep the kids with the latest must have toy.
I have to agree with you to an extent NFJB - I think all seasons should be toned down - Easter, Halloween, Xmas. So much emphasis is put on 'buy this for your child' etc etc. I'd rather go into a shop that was tastefully decorated for easter/halloween/xmas rather than one that was OTT and fully decked out 3 months in advance. To me, Xmas is a day for sharing with loved ones and yes, exchanging gifts, but do I want to think about Xmas shopping 12 weeks in advance? No thank you.
I don't think shops should stop all the 'Xmas hype' though - it does get me in the mood for Xmas, but only once its December :roll:
As far as I am concerned the shops can stop putting up christmas displays. Not beacause it offends folk but because I get sick of going into shops to have christmas jingles playing and all these displays everywhere from now till christmas. Christmas is not about spending money in shops. It is a time for folk to celebrate the birth of Jesus. If you dont believe dont send cards or presents, carry on as normal and complain that all the shops are having a bank holiday and you cannot get out to buy a pint of milk or a loaf of bread. If fact if you are a non believer maybe you should volenteer to give up your holidays to allow shops to stay open and life to continue as per any other day, and I dont want to hear anyone complaining when you dont get any cards or pressies. It is a christian event not an excuse for every shop and credit card company to squeeze every last penny out of your wallet/credit limit/ overdraft just to keep the kids with the latest must have toy.
Scrooge rises again! Kill the fun for those that like a nice bright December with happy music. If you do not like Christmas in the shops go to bed for the holiday period!
Henry20, now that I do agree with. Somebody who was an adult at the time may be able to correct me but I'm sure that when I was a wee child in the 50s Christmas stuff only appeared in the shops a few weeks before Christmas.
It's possible that it was just that my parents kept me away from shops with any sign of Christmas but if it was anything like today I don't think that would have been possible. Christmas, certainly in the Cities, seems to start as soon as the Summer Holidays are over.
Scrooge rises again! Kill the fun for those that like a nice bright December with happy music. If you do not like Christmas in the shops go to bed for the holiday period!
Surely that would amount to being a recluse if you didn't like easter/halloween/xmas? ;) And I'm pretty sure that NFJB enjoys his Xmas day with his wife and their 2 children, but if he's really against it, I'll stroke him off my Xmas card list! But then that means 1 less Xmas card for me :eek:
Personally I find this sort of Politically Correct rubbish highly insulting.
How dare these people assume that anybody who is not Christian is so pathetic that they are incapable of accepting the beliefs and traditions of others?
I suspect that in another day and age they would have been of the belief that such sections of humanity were ignorant savages in need of being “Civilised”.
Although the ideas are reversed, the mind set is exactly the same, "We are superior beings who have to ensure that these lesser mortals are protected for their own sake!"
I wonder how they would feel if they were treated in the same condescending and insulting manner?
I think you'll find big companies aren't doing it to insult people. The simple fact is that corporations can be sued at the drop of a hat for anything these days. Look at any day's newspaper and there are always tales of corporations being sued by employees over absolutely anything. It is PC gone mad, but what else are they meant to do? They are businesses out to make money, not a communities outshowing of opinion and feeling.
The funny thing about all this "don't mention Christmas for fear of upsetting other religions" is that the other religions don't find it upsetting. It is the leftie PC brigade who want to stop all the traditional festivals - not the 'minorities'. Perhaps we should be burning the PC guy this weekend instead of poor old Fawkes.....
changilass
03-Nov-06, 17:35
Perhaps we should be burning the PC guy this weekend instead of poor old Fawkes.....
Good idea, round up all the pc guys and the goody 2 shoes and give them a good roasting:lol: then perhaps we can all get on with our lives - only problem with this is who are we gonna blame then when everything is still not all rosey in the garden????
Are Debenhams ensuring that people are not buying Christmas presents in their shops??
I can just hear it on the shop floor...."excuse me can you tell me where the power rangers toys are, I want to get one for my son for Christmas.......They are over there Sir but we cannot sell you one for fear of upsetting non-Christians"
The funny thing about all this "don't mention Christmas for fear of upsetting other religions" is that the other religions don't find it upsetting. It is the leftie PC brigade who want to stop all the traditional festivals - not the 'minorities'. Perhaps we should be burning the PC guy this weekend instead of poor old Fawkes.....
MadPict, it only takes one person, one big law suit all over the Press and not only does that company lose money from the court case, it loses countless millions from the bad publicity.
yes - and it tends to be on a 'no win, no fee basis'. If people have a genuine case, why the need for 'no win, no fee'??
midi2304,
Hmm, not sure who would sue over something like this and I wonder if someone did would it be laughed out of court. I mean we live in a "christian" country with a long history of celebrating "christian" festivals so if a person of another faith tried to sue what is to stop a counter suit being made against them?
I seriously doubt if this is something which a Muslim or Hindu or any other religious follower would even contemplate. This is being driven by the PC brigade and we should hang them all high.
midi2304,
Hmm, not sure who would sue over something like this and I wonder if someone did would it be laughed out of court. I mean we live in a "christian" country with a long history of celebrating "christian" festivals so if a person of another faith tried to sue what is to stop a counter suit being made against them?
I seriously doubt if this is something which a Muslim or Hindu or any other religious follower would even contemplate. This is being driven by the PC brigade and we should hang them all high.
You are probably right. It prob would get laughed out of court. But if you are the head of a big business with the 'No Win, No Fee' culture we are now in, why would you expose yourself to the risk? Far easier to do what Debenhams appear to be doing and save themselves a lot of potential problems.
It's a sad state of affairs but understandable...
George Brims
03-Nov-06, 20:00
This whole "War on Christmas" nonsense came up last year in the US, led by right wing nutjobs like Bill O'Reilly on Fox TV and Rush Limbaugh on the radio. There is no war on Christmas. People have simply come to realise that it's not just the Christians who have a mid-winter celebration. Jews have Chanuckah, African-Americans have Kwanzaa, Pagans have whatever nonsensical "tradition" they have decided to invent, and the Muslims seem to have been shorted cos they don't have one! So when my wife says farewell to a customer she will say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", and hope it covers whatever the customer's reason for buying presents in the first place was.
Now my pet hate - the "Holiday" season has started already! I had to go and complain about dreadful Christmas music in a bookstore last night. The people at the Customer Services desk thanked me for complaining, as it gave them the excuse to put on something else! One of the big shopping malls here put up its tree on Monday.
Dreadnought
03-Nov-06, 21:44
The Moderators?
Only the ones with their heads up their own backsides.
In the words of Scrooge.........
Bah! humbug!
I'll enjoy Christmas anyway.
changilass
03-Nov-06, 22:19
Only the ones with their heads up their own backsides.
.... and which ones do you consider those to be, If you are gonna make a comment like that have the gumption to do it properly:confused
pultneytooner
03-Nov-06, 22:33
I think you'll find big companies aren't doing it to insult people. The simple fact is that corporations can be sued at the drop of a hat for anything these days. Look at any day's newspaper and there are always tales of corporations being sued by employees over absolutely anything. It is PC gone mad, but what else are they meant to do? They are businesses out to make money, not a communities outshowing of opinion and feeling.
Maybe sued at the drop of a hat but surely the judge or whatever would have the sense to throw such a case where it belongs.
pultneytooner
03-Nov-06, 22:38
This whole "War on Christmas" nonsense came up last year in the US, led by right wing nutjobs like Bill O'Reilly on Fox TV and Rush Limbaugh on the radio. There is no war on Christmas. People have simply come to realise that it's not just the Christians who have a mid-winter celebration. Jews have Chanuckah, African-Americans have Kwanzaa, Pagans have whatever nonsensical "tradition" they have decided to invent, and the Muslims seem to have been shorted cos they don't have one! So when my wife says farewell to a customer she will say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", and hope it covers whatever the customer's reason for buying presents in the first place was.
Now my pet hate - the "Holiday" season has started already! I had to go and complain about dreadful Christmas music in a bookstore last night. The people at the Customer Services desk thanked me for complaining, as it gave them the excuse to put on something else! One of the big shopping malls here put up its tree on Monday.
So you agree we should say happy holidays instead of merry christmas?
Personaly I don't give a rats behind for whatever holidays these other religions celebrate, they can celebrate whatever they want, worship the moon for all I care but this is a christian country and if christians want to say merry christmas then that's the way it should be and stuff the objections of the minority groups
George Brims
03-Nov-06, 22:47
I'm not particularly agreeing or disagreeing. I'm just saying that's why people say it that way.
Christian country eh? Good thing I left...
pultneytooner
03-Nov-06, 22:52
Christian country eh? Good thing I left...
Tell me what your comment means and I will try to give a response.
Just think this is a money saving exercise for Debenhams. Making the pc stuff an excuse. They would be better respecting the customers wishes who made this company rich in the first place. What would happen if everyone cancelled their store card for Debenhams and purchased no products for Christmas.
To quote a line from a Nat King Cole song Man will live for evermore because of Christmas Day.
George Brims
03-Nov-06, 23:07
Quite simply, Tooner, I don't think Britain is (or should be) a Christian country. I prefer one where freedom of religion, including the freedom not to have one at all, is the rule. If it really is a Christian country then as an atheist I feel safer elsewhere.
Now my pet hate - the "Holiday" season has started already!
I totally agree. I love excitement of the bairns anticipating Christmas. All very well 2 or 3 weeks before hand and there is a good build up, but its only the beginning of November for goodness sake. The whole thing is out of hand. And for the Over the top PC thing, ridiculous!!!
pultneytooner
03-Nov-06, 23:48
Quite simply, Tooner, I don't think Britain is (or should be) a Christian country. I prefer one where freedom of religion, including the freedom not to have one at all, is the rule. If it really is a Christian country then as an atheist I feel safer elsewhere.
That's cool with me, have a religion don't have one that's the way it should be.
My point is if christians should be able to celebrate in whatever way they want and I would give that same priviledge to any person of a different religion without prejudice.
What amuses me about the whole PC nonsense is, with the exception of the few extremists you will get in any large group, that the whole nonsense never starts with the groups the PC Brigade are so keen to protect and it is usually those groups who find the posturing most ridiculous.
I would find it far more constructive if the PC Brigade, instead of interfering with our customs and traditions, encouraged others to engage in their own customs and celebrations as well. That way we all might come to understand each other better.
The methods currently employed by the over-zealous PC comedians is to give the impression that those of other customs and beliefs are totally intolerant of ours which can only fuel the belief that we, in turn, should be intolerant of theirs.
As far as I am concerned I cannot think of a better way of fostering distrust, misunderstanding and a feeling of separation between any groups of people.
pultneytooner
04-Nov-06, 01:02
What amuses me about the whole PC nonsense is, with the exception of the few extremists you will get in any large group, that the whole nonsense never starts with the groups the PC Brigade are so keen to protect and it is usually those groups who find the posturing most ridiculous.
I would find it far more constructive if the PC Brigade, instead of interfering with our customs and traditions, encouraged others to engage in their own customs and celebrations as well. That way we all might come to understand each other better.
The methods currently employed by the over-zealous PC comedians is to give the impression that those of other customs and beliefs are totally intolerant of ours which can only fuel the belief that we, in turn, should be intolerant of theirs.
As far as I am concerned I cannot think of a better way of fostering distrust, misunderstanding and a feeling of separation between any groups of people.
Cheers jaws, better put by you than I could manage.
Naefearjustbeer
04-Nov-06, 02:24
Surely that would amount to being a recluse if you didn't like easter/halloween/xmas? ;) And I'm pretty sure that NFJB enjoys his Xmas day with his wife and their 2 children, but if he's really against it, I'll stroke him off my Xmas card list! But then that means 1 less Xmas card for me :eek:
No need to stroke anyone from your christmas card list, No scrooges in my house I enjoy Christmas day with my family I enjoy seeing my bairns getting presents. I enjoy all the different things such as easter halloween christmas etc. But they are only one day not months of pressure from shops and advertisers to spend spend spend. I like to go into a shop and buy the things I want without having to listen to Slade Merry Xmas everyone every bloomin day from a month before.
Christmas should be about sharing and kindness not about greed and money.
Naefearjustbeer
04-Nov-06, 02:28
Scrooge rises again! Kill the fun for those that like a nice bright December with happy music. If you do not like Christmas in the shops go to bed for the holiday period!
Nowhere did I say I did not like or celebrate christmas.
This is just complete nonesense.
When my Hindu neighbour wished me Happy Diwali a couple of weeks ago, I did not feel offended that they imposed their religious beliefs on me, but honoured that they wanted to extend their blessings to me during what is obviously a special festival for them.
Christmas has gone so much beyond the religious celebration that it originally was. It is a tradition now. Yes, there are obviously a large number of Christians who celebrate the birth of Christ, but there is also a larger number for whom this has no significance in their day to day life. For a large cross section of society, it is a time for sharing and spending time with your loved ones. However this tradition originated, it should be embraced as a positive influence on society as a whole (ignoring the ridiculous levels of commercialism - separate discussion), as should the right to harmlessly celebrate your faith without fear of persecution.
On a side note, a teacher friend told me that they were not allowed to 'do' Halloween last week at their school as a handful of parents complained that it offended their Christian sensibilities... It always comes full circle eventually I guess.
Gogglebox
04-Nov-06, 13:15
Im not an expert on different religions but dont you think its gone now so far that people who celebrate Christian holidays, and yes i know a lot of us arent very Christian but we do celebrate the holidays, are now being prejudiced against by the PC brigade paving the way to celebrate ever other faith holiday at the expense of downgrading the most common one, in this country
Maybe we need to complain so that we can start getting equal rights
The tail is now wagging the dog
I agree other faiths celebrations should be acknowledged but why is it at the expense of Christian holidays is it now an inferior faith in the eyes of our politically correct gurus!!
A lot seems to be made of people of other religions maybe having stronger beliefs and brought up with their religion but up until recently all our schools brought us up in conjuction with christianity and the bible, although im not sure if they still do this now, so why is the faith on which our lifes were originally guided relegated
And who is it that sits and thinks all this stuff up???
Bring back the good old days when Goldbergs in Glasgow had the best Christmas displays.
Now those fellas knew a thing about retailing!
(and not in the least bit insulted by the notion of Christmas)
Maybe sued at the drop of a hat but surely the judge or whatever would have the sense to throw such a case where it belongs.
You'd like to think so but it would still be big news. And that would hardly be stellar publicity for the company in question.
I have no problem whatever with Christmas being renamed Happy Holidays. For a good while now "Christ" has been the last thing on most people's minds when Christmas is mentioned. It is a season of excess with food, drink and expensive presents the main priorities.
For a festival supposed to be about celebrating the birth of Christ it is ironic that instead it is a time where many people will suffer extreme stress and depression. Others will be up to their neck in debt trying to keep up with the excesses that have become the "norm"
Christmas as we know it is nothing but a consumerfest. Business dictates to us when we should be showing our love for others through the only way possible, ie the bottom of your wallet. Spend, spend, spend, "have a nice Christmas" beams the shop assistant who would not normally grant you a lukewarm grin at any other time of the year.
Jesus must be turning in his Gravy Train!!
johns lewis have rolled out the xmas light so has nearly every other shop, tinsel glittery thing and lights....and more trees than u can shake a stick at (no pun intended) and this morning i heard slade and wizard in quick succession... which makes me wonder how PC the shop are tryin to be surely noddy holder screaming its christmas at the top of his lungs (at the start of november) isnt embracing all the cultures, just a thought
The_man_from_del_monte
07-Nov-06, 18:08
Guy Fawkes banned in London, replaced by a Bengali folk tale http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006510035,00.html
Total madness IMO.
just walked past Debenams... they're are deffinatley having a christmas display.... tinsel, trees and lights all the way!
Just back from Glasgow and thought I would let everyone on the org know Debenham's in Glasgow have a lovely display of decorations the shop is all lit up and plenty of Christmas trees with lights on in all departments and various other Christmas displays
A long time ago, I worked for two Egyptian Jews, although my direct boss was a Church of Scotland devotee who reputedly went out to convert people on occasion.
Us plebes didn't see the two owners every day, but one year, just before we closed for our Christmas Holiday, I bumped into one of them and wished him a Merry Christmas. My boss heard, took me aside and said, "You can't say that to him."
What a lot of rubbish. They are more than welcome to wish me a Happy Hanukkah or whatever.
A Happy Christmas to everyone! If you like that, great! If you ignore it, fine by me. If you hate me for saying it, I will cheerfully ignore your hate mail.
By the way, those two brothers provided their 400 staff with a bottle of sherry and a good sized turkey just before Christmas every year.
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