View Full Version : leaving and entering Britain
martin macdonald
02-Nov-06, 19:51
i noticed on the news today that more folkes are leaving the country than entering:~(
danc1ngwitch
02-Nov-06, 19:58
I am desperate to leave but it aint that easy...
Actually I think you mis-heard: 1500 a day entering; 1000 a day leaving on BBC 4 ( Main destinations: Australia, new Zealand and Spain). Does anyone question the right of these ex-pats to take their money out of the UK, I wonder....);)
martin macdonald
02-Nov-06, 20:03
Actually I think you mis-heard: 1500 a day entering; 1000 a day leaving on BBC 4 ( Main destinations: Australia, new Zealand and Spain). Does anyone question the right of these ex-pats to take their money out of the UK, I wonder....);)it was on radio 2. no mistake more leaving than entering:Razz
Billy Boy
02-Nov-06, 20:06
has it got to do with the people comeing in as to why there leaveing?or simply looking for a better life style and or weather
I don't want to pick bones, but have a look and see if we are talking aboot the same bit o'news. Mine definately afirms more coming in..... hope the link works..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm
Eitherway, not enough babies being born to substitute the tax payers that are retiring.
PS: Link does not work, so try this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/ and look for the article in video and audio news
David from Stockport
02-Nov-06, 20:48
Yes but if you stopped paying out so much in benefits to those who dont want to get of there backsides there would be plenty left to pay pensions to those that have worked all there lives without importing people from abroad - there was an article last week (sorry cant remember where) that said if you earn less than £ 27,000 As most imigrants would and i admit so do i that you actualy cost the state more in healthcare & benefits housing etc than you will even pay in taxs and are in that case have a negative effect on the economy ( i appologise for me) . Personnaly dont so why we dont do away with child benefit , i thought it was brought in after ww2 to encourage people to have children to replace those lost in the war. As the worlds population is so high and the effects this has why does any country want to encourage more babies to be born - the money saved again could go on pentions . Family planning if you cant afford them dont have them and expect the rest of us to pay for it.
Yes but if you stopped paying out so much in benefits to those who dont want to get of there backsides there would be plenty left to pay pensions to those that have worked all there lives without importing people from abroad - there was an article last week (sorry cant remember where) that said if you earn less than £ 27,000 As most imigrants would and i admit so do i that you actualy cost the state more in healthcare & benefits housing etc than you will even pay in taxs and are in that case have a negative effect on the economy ( i appologise for me) . Personnaly dont so why we dont do away with child benefit , i thought it was brought in after ww2 to encourage people to have children to replace those lost in the war. As the worlds population is so high and the effects this has why does any country want to encourage more babies to be born - the money saved again could go on pentions . Family planning if you cant afford them dont have them and expect the rest of us to pay for it.
allrightey then.
Yes but if you stopped paying out so much in benefits to those who dont want to get of there backsides there would be plenty left to pay pensions to those that have worked all there lives without importing people from abroad - there was an article last week (sorry cant remember where) that said if you earn less than £ 27,000 As most imigrants would and i admit so do i that you actualy cost the state more in healthcare & benefits housing etc than you will even pay in taxs and are in that case have a negative effect on the economy ( i appologise for me) . Personnaly dont so why we dont do away with child benefit , i thought it was brought in after ww2 to encourage people to have children to replace those lost in the war. As the worlds population is so high and the effects this has why does any country want to encourage more babies to be born - the money saved again could go on pentions . Family planning if you cant afford them dont have them and expect the rest of us to pay for it.
Very,very, true.
percy toboggan
02-Nov-06, 20:56
Family planning if you cant afford them dont have them and expect the rest of us to pay for it.
Who is going to pay for your old age pension? The state should contribute a little towards the cost of bringing up it's future citizens (and taxpayers).
If you believe only affluent people should have children then you are a short sighted idiot.
Ju: you need to listen again - there are 1.500 immigrants arriving every day, and 1,000 leaving Britain - half of those leaving are British. Mos tof those arriving are Polish.
Ju: you need to listen again - there are 1.500 immigrants arriving every day, and 1,000 leaving Britain - half of those leaving are British. Mos tof those arriving are Polish.
OMG what language am I speaking today?
Actually I think you mis-heard: 1500 a day entering; 1000 a day leaving on BBC 4 ( Main destinations: Australia, new Zealand and Spain).
it was on radio 2. no mistake more leaving than entering:Razz
Then Radio 2 is out of step with Radio 4 and Radio Scotland who both quoted Ju's figures. About 1500 in, 1000 out.
There was a net increase of 150,000 increase during the last year.
David from Stockport
02-Nov-06, 21:09
No i dont believe only rich people have children - just that people pay for there own and plan as such hence family planning - If you decide to have children you plan , cut down on the booze and fags , go out less dont buy the newest type of phone and make do with a normal tv not some big flash plasma job . As regarding my pension if so much of my tax s didnt go on those who expect the state to support them cradle/grave we d have something left for pensions (unless Gorden Brown nicks that as well)
_Ju_ - I heard you loud & clear the first time - and agreed - this is exactly what I heard on the radio earlier. I may have the advantage here though - I was in Portugal for my hols this year & picked up some of the language then ;)
Come on Folks, don't stop them blaming the Poles for all out ills. It means they are leaving Asylum Seekers alone.
Besides, in a few months it will all our problems will be blamed on some other poor group that catches their eye.
The Romanians and the Bulgars haven't even started arriving and already they are being lined up for the blame.
Fortunately we haven't reduced ourselves to the organised smashing shop windows. At least, not yet we haven't.
Cometh the day, cometh the scapegoat!
frank ward
03-Nov-06, 00:01
For fifty years I've heard the same old tripe from moaners like Scotsboy, David from Stockport, etc.
If you can't blame the blacks, blame the Asians, or the Irish or the Gypsies, better still blame them all and call them social security scroungers.
This tabloid mentality avoids addressing the truth - that there is more than enough wealth to ensure everybody in this country - and indeed the whole world - can enjoy good health, education, housing and retirement.
But of course this incredible wealth is amassed and controlled by a tiny minority, even though they actually create none of it.
j4bberw0ck
03-Nov-06, 09:13
I heard the Radio 2 coverage, and I'm sorry, martin, you're wrong. They gave the same figures as everyone else.
But of course this incredible wealth is amassed and controlled by a tiny minority, even though they actually create none of it.
Where does wealth come from? And who's the tiny minority? Just interested....
Yes but if you stopped paying out so much in benefits to those who dont want to get of there backsides .
Who are you talking about David? Who exactly are people who dont want to get off their backside?
why we dont do away with child benefit ,. :eek: Crikey I wouldnt survive if it wasnt for child benefit!!!
Family planning if you cant afford them dont have them and expect the rest of us to pay for it. What happens when you can afford them and then your marriage ends, or you lose your job or you get ill and suddenly find that things are more difficult.
I pay for my children. Me. I have worked all my life david, I have no money, nothing to show for it. I own a house i dont live in and without my child benefits and tax credits i wouldnt have actually managed the last five years. I dont think i will ever recover financially from the break up of my marriage and i will probably never live again in a house that i own. And you think we should remove child benefits? I earn a reasonable wage for hereabouts but i have to live in private rented property and get no reductions on rent or council tax. I have to run a car because of where i live. I have to feed clothe and support my kids. I dont have an overdraft and i dont have any loans or credit cards because i couldnt afford to pay them back. Child benefit is a vital part of my finances and without it i think i would sink.
j4bberw0ck
03-Nov-06, 10:29
Hearing all you say, squidge...... there's a need for benefits in many cases, whatever the benefit happens to be called. What's ludicrous, though, is the universal entitlement to child benefit, regardless of income and circumstances, and the availability of tax credits to households with an income of £50,000 per annum.
It would be nice to think that someone might work on simplifying and rationalising the system, though rationalisation and simplification don't seem to be on governmental radar whether we're talking left wing, right wing, Edinburgh or London. Or even at your local Town Hall :roll:
Ditto, pensions - and in particular, State pensions - but that's another story......
Oh, and the tax system generally....... the one which puts those on low incomes (and benefits) on a higher marginal rate of tax than the better-off whilst purporting to be fair..... yet another story!
porshiepoo
03-Nov-06, 10:30
This is gonna turn into another rant like the other thread eh?
I'll watch the postings with interest but I don't think I really need to say again how I feel about the amount of people coming and going to and from this country.
Blame the goverment!!!!!!!!
David from Stockport
03-Nov-06, 10:36
Frank - when you said that the vast majority of wealth was controlled by the few i take it you were talking about yourself? ive just read your reply on the thread - do you need to be rich to be happy?- your reply was-Im extreamly rich and extreamly happy - lucky you .
I work 6/7 days a week to attempt to get on the housing ladder , i go out about once every 3 months and i object to people who make no attempt to help there own situation living a life on benefits , you may not see much of that in Sutherland but here in the big city believe me it happens. A girl i used to work with was going though a really rough time with her husband as they were both working around the clock to pay the mortage and bills so were niggling at each other - what made it worse was in the house opposite which was almost identicle was a buy to let property and the dss had put in the local burgler , he had been there fully supported by you &me for 6 months in which time he did nt work , had let the garden become overgrown had his scumbag mates round drinking all day etc. I dont mind my tax s going to the genuine but unforuantly to many are just takers.
So glad your exteamly rich , happy and live in Sutherland so it wont effect you -luckily .
j4bberw0ck, with Child Benefit what you describe already happens. Those with sufficient income get a besic rate, those without a sufficient income are entitled to additional allowances.
If anything Brown, by wanting to micro-manage everything has turned a complicated system into a nightmare in many cases.
Tax and the lower paid can certainly be partly resolved by doubling the Personal Allowance which would take the lowest paid out of the clutches of the Tax Man altogether.
Though what any of the above or the Benefits System have to do with immigration and emigration I fail to see.
And yes, I do know about the oft told lie that all immigrants arrive shouting, "Show me where I go to get the Free Money!"
I also have been hearing the same rubbish spouted for the last 50 years. I'm still waiting for the "End of Civilisation as we know it" which the same people also predict ad nausium.
It simply boils down to, "If your not happy, blame the outsider, it saves you looking at yourself."
j4bberw0ck, with Child Benefit what you describe already happens. Those with sufficient income get a besic rate, those without a sufficient income are entitled to additional allowances.
Thats Tax Credits Jaws - child benefit is still a universal benefit paid to the mother for each child regardless of income - her own or her partners. Tax Credits are as you say.
peter macdonald
03-Nov-06, 12:23
P.P for once we agree its better to sit this one out Mind you wonder what would happen if the Spaniards threw out the estimated 350,000 people from these isles that are estimated to live in Spain ??? Oh well at least some of the older ones would keep the Met Police busy for a while
David from Stockport, that is a very harrowing tale. There are many people in many places who suffer the same problems.
My son is on a low income and lives in City Centre Manchester in Fallowfield; you might even know that "wealthy" part of Manchester. He gets on with his life and does not blame the rest of the world for any and every problem in his life.
Contrary to common belief, those who live in Caithness and Sutherland have not all led a life secluded from the realities of the big wide world, nor do they all have an easy comfortable life living in the lap of luxury watching the money roll in.
Everybody can tell of knowing somebody with a Hard Luck Story or of somebody else getting more than they believe is fair.
But what exactly does any of that have to do with the amount of people entering or leaving this Country?
Oh yes, I remember. All those nasty Foreigners are piling into the Country to work for no money and are forcing everybody to accept starvation wages.
No. that can't be right because Foreigners are piling into the Country to do no work at all and become Scroungers living at our expense out of out hard earned Taxes.
Of course, no decent British Person would consider ever doing such things, it's not Cricket, old chap, it's just not Cricket!
And yes, I do know about the oft told lie that all immigrants arrive shouting, "Show me where I go to get the Free Money!"
I also have been hearing the same rubbish spouted for the last 50 years. I'm still waiting for the "End of Civilisation as we know it" which the same people also predict ad nausium.
It simply boils down to, "If your not happy, blame the outsider, it saves you looking at yourself."
Why is it the always the newcomer to the UK that is always targeted by the howling hard done by Brits?
What about shouting about those that have never worked and never will, and have no intention of working, they IMO
are a bigger drain on our society than any immigrants.
and has anyone here ever tried to get monies from HMG,
My own experiences have led me to believe that it is not so easy, maybe I am too honest, but what galls me are the guys standing next to me at the bar of my local, bragging how much they got off the DHSS, and asking me if I want any jobs done on the black, and then promptly order up rounds of drink for all their mates. Whilst I am checking my change to see if I can afford another 1/2 pint.
I have worked nearly every day of my working life, with a few exceptions, I have paid my taxes and my Council tax, and still I get nothing extra from the DHSS, should I get angry and annoyed with the moaners and the scroungers?
TOO Right I do!!!!!!
Thats Tax Credits Jaws - child benefit is still a universal benefit paid to the mother for each child regardless of income - her own or her partners. Tax Credits are as you say.I know the difference. Child Benefit is a Universal Benefit generally paid to the Mother because her Husband cannot be trusted to give her money to look after their Children.
That was the reason it was created originally and it replaced a Tax Allowance which was given on the Husband's wage.
Though, once again, what is the connection between that and the amount Immigration and Emigration?
Unless you are saying it is all the fault of those nasty grasping Foriegners swamping the Country and who are all intent on living a life of luxury at our expense?
Golach, it's because it's always easier to blame somebody else for all your ills. It saves having to bother getting off your backside and doing something about helping yourself.
I suspect that what you are refering to is what is or was commonly refered to as the "Black Economy".
"Is it for cash?" ring any bells with anybody?
I know the difference.
It would appear that you do not know the difference. Child Benefit is paid on the basis of the number and age of your children. Your income is utterly irrelevant and your savings do not affect it either.
Child Tax Credit IS affected by income and is normally paid to the person who spends most time looking after their children. I receive this payment for our kids so I must be one of those few Husbands worthy of trust with this money but not with the Child Benefit money ;o)
David from Stockport
03-Nov-06, 13:09
Sorry Jaws my fault in part for getting off topic; I do think we need to manage immigration rather that allow an open door policy , we have to know who is entering and leaving the country and the mass immigration of the preseant is unsustainable we should bring in some type of points system which other countrys do also we should do criminal record checks on those wishing to settle here , yes i know we have plenty of our own crims but we cant get rid of them unfortuantly. We also have to set a quota on numbers as that is the main problem in my view . You may not get many immigrants in Caithness yet but reading other threads i have seen moans about the English moving up and buying houses that locals cannot afford and pushing up prices- well why are the English coming to Caithness / yep white flight pushed up to Caithness by ever increasing house prices down here caused by no other reason than a shortage of housing !!!!!!!! (its all about numbers) and no the foriegners arnt buying them all up they mainly rent off buy to let landlords who buy up available houseing that first time buyers used to buy. Lots of people down here are doing buy to let as a way of running there own pensions fund since Gorden Brown raided pension funds.
And know i dont blame foriegners for the problems id rather have an honest hard working Pole than a hard drinking workshy dss scrounging born and bred Brit!!! Just for gods sake somebody manage the numbers!!!
Child benifit and help with child minding no matter what the income is to encourage people who do work to have more kids. Because we just don't have enough to pay pensions now as someone said.
This is gonna turn into another rant like the other thread eh?
I'll watch the postings with interest but I don't think I really need to say again how I feel about the amount of people coming and going to and from this country.
Blame the goverment!!!!!!!!
I'm with you porshiepoo Come over here we're underworked, overpaid and many of us are plain lazy. The pollies do little, "everyone" blames the assylum seekers or the visa overstayers, (mostly from the UK), but after the war it was the Italians and Greeks and then the Asians for every thing wrong with our country but the weathers fine and it's free the fishings good and in some states it's free and generally life's GOOD regards robyn
Child benifit and help with child minding no matter what the income is to encourage people who do work to have more kids. Because we just don't have enough to pay pensions now as someone said.
Child tax credits and help with childcare costs are to encourage people back into work! To help people overcome the barriers they face in returning to work. The tax credits system was intorduced as part of the Governments drive to help eradicate child poverty - thats the history behind it and thats why its there. Full stop. There are also tax credits for other people who struggle to get back into work - people with disabilities, people over fifty for example. Its part of the welfare to work agenda
Scorrie, if you notice, I said Child Benefit is a Universal Allowance which means that it is paid to all parents irrespective of other financial concerns.
Child Tax Credit was a later creation and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Tax Allowance which the original Child Allowance as it was then called.
The reason given at the time was that the money would go straight to the mother so she had her own money to spend on the children and was not therefore reliant on her husband.
It was always dependent on the number and age of the children and originally on when they left full time education upto, and I might be wrong in the exact age, the age of seventeen.
It must be about 40 years since the then Child Allowance, now called Child Benefit, came into being. When it was created the Tax Allowance for the Children of married couples, which in those days of there being no Sex Equality Laws, was claimed by the Husband and who at the time, I rather think, also claimed for his wife's tax allowance if she worked because they were deemed a single unit, was then abolished.
I am well aware that Child Allowance/Benefit can be paid to a man because I received it myself as a single parent.
The Child Tax Credit, by comparison, is relatively recent introduction and is now, paid to the parent who spends the most time caring for the children.
Please give me marks out of ten for my memory test.
I'm sure the detailed and involved discussion of the methods employed to provide monies to assist with the upbringing of the children in this Country and who it is paid to is of great interest to a few people.
Having said that, I ask once again, and the question is open to everybody, what has this got to do with the number of Foreigners entering, staying, living, dying or leaving this Country?
Is there some direct connection between the two which means that if the above were abolished then the Immigration Problem, real or imagined, would immediately cease?
Are we becoming Zenophobic to recent incomers to the U.K.?
If we lived in a foreign country and we where unhappy with the state of affairs, and we had the chance to move away to another country where the benefits where far greater, surely we would if we could.
It is not the migrants fault, we are all looking for a better lifestyle. It is down to the governments of the day to minimise the effect of migration on it's indigenous population. When they removed the basic living wage structure many many years ago, this created a climate whereby Companies could pay what they wanted to their workers, and if you did'nt like it, you had to lump it or leave, and today, not much has changed with regards to that attitude.
It is obvious, that employers will be quite happy with employing migrants, no matter where they originate from, its called cheap labour. And most of the workers are on 3 times as much as if they where in their own country.
I agree that our immigration policies should be totally re-organised to the extent that we only allow people in who can benefit the country as a whole (and they would have to be able to speak the language or at least be willing to learn it), and if they are escaping from a dictatoial regime or their lives are at risque etc. But we should not be allowing terrorist's, subversives et al from other country's to live here, who do nothing to benefit the country. It is down to the government of the day to radicalise the immigration policies to control the level of immigration into the U.K.
If we wanted to emmigrate to a foreign country, there are certain stipulations and laws that we have to abide by. Such as, live by their laws, aknowledge their customs and beliefs, and be aware of any religous restrictions in force. Invariably, certain countries will not allow you in unless you have a sustainable income, someone to vouch for you, and a job waiting for you (a bit like Australia many years ago).
Unfortunately the U.K. has become so liberalised that we allow anyone into the country without any checks or balances in place. We can't even track most of them whose visa's expire. And the ones we do catch especially if they have done a criminal offence, we don't kick them out, we allow them to stay???
Freedom of travel should be a basic human right in any country in any part of the world, however, to actually stay and work in a foreign country, it should have it's own stipulations for residence and working to incomers, which at times does not seem to be in place here in our own country. Also it would seem that we, as indigenous to the U.K., have become a minority, in the sense that we do more for other nations than we do for our own people.
Is it time to move? :eek:
Ciao,
Scorrie, if you notice, I said Child Benefit is a Universal Allowance which means that it is paid to all parents irrespective of other financial concerns.
Child Tax Credit was a later creation and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Tax Allowance which the original Child Allowance as it was then called.
The reason given at the time was that the money would go straight to the mother so she had her own money to spend on the children and was not therefore reliant on her husband.
It was always dependent on the number and age of the children and originally on when they left full time education upto, and I might be wrong in the exact age, the age of seventeen.
It must be about 40 years since the then Child Allowance, now called Child Benefit, came into being. When it was created the Tax Allowance for the Children of married couples, which in those days of there being no Sex Equality Laws, was claimed by the Husband and who at the time, I rather think, also claimed for his wife's tax allowance if she worked because they were deemed a single unit, was then abolished.
I am well aware that Child Allowance/Benefit can be paid to a man because I received it myself as a single parent.
The Child Tax Credit, by comparison, is relatively recent introduction and is now, paid to the parent who spends the most time caring for the children.
Please give me marks out of ten for my memory test.
I'm sure the detailed and involved discussion of the methods employed to provide monies to assist with the upbringing of the children in this Country and who it is paid to is of great interest to a few people.
Having said that, I ask once again, and the question is open to everybody, what has this got to do with the number of Foreigners entering, staying, living, dying or leaving this Country?
Is there some direct connection between the two which means that if the above were abolished then the Immigration Problem, real or imagined, would immediately cease?
Jaws. You said:-
"j4bberw0ck, with Child Benefit what you describe already happens. Those with sufficient income get a besic rate, those without a sufficient income are entitled to additional allowances"
This is INCORRECT.
Dress it up any way you want to, your statement was what happens with Child Tax Credit.
I would imagine anyone coming to stay in the UK would consider what they will be entitiled to when they arrive here. Since Child Benefit is paid regardless of income or savings, it is obviously money they can be guaranteed to receive when they arrive. Might be seen as an incentive by some people.
David from Stockport
03-Nov-06, 15:23
Well said dpw39.
Are we becoming Zenophobic to recent incomers to the U.K.?
If we lived...
Spot on dpw.
What I will say is this. And I am awaiting the flaming that is coming...
A lot of people in Caithness - not all, perhaps not even the majority - but a significant % of the Caithness population are relatively sheltered from the real world. This is changing. Broadband is making a huge difference.
But I believe that as long as there is such a geographical hurdle in getting to somewhere like Caithness, the county's demograph will always be years behind that of major cities down south - even behind somewhere like Inverness. Because of this, people in Caithnesses opinions and beliefs will not be based on hard fact and evidence / experience but more on what the read and hear.
This has been particularly obvious in the last couple of threads that have discussed migrants in the UK.
percy toboggan
03-Nov-06, 17:37
I often hear government ministers defending immigration by saying 'it benefits the economy'
Well, it first of all benefits the immigrants. That said work gets done, often because indigenous workers are displaced or undermined. But the crux of the matter is it is not just about money.
This government knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. What does it say about our country when record numbers who were born and raised here want to leave. It's not all about the weather, taxation and crime. I'd guess as many are fed up of the number of incomers from all over the world, often having no allegiance or historical link with Britain. Neighborhoods change too fast, people feel any sense of community is at best withering away. Schools have to cope with up to thirty different languages. Ask yourselves in the relative calm of Caithness, how would you feel if your child's scholastic progress was held up because half the class did not speak English and needed special attention?
There are further millions who would leave like a shot if they had the wherewithall to do it. This exodus further distirts the ethnic make up of those who are left. This seismic movement of people which is now approaching biblical terms is not just affecting Britain of course, though for many we seem the destination of choice.
The stresses on housing have resulted in a ridiculous explosion of asking prices for modest homes. Many young folk have no hope of ever affording a conventional mortgage. Health services are under increasing pressure too.
So it's not just money. The truth is that wealthy people are getting wealthier on the backs of cheap immigrant labour. Insulated in their leafy lanes with their large houses they of course do not feel the alienation so many 'ordinary' people' in poorer areas have to face everyday.
Even second generation Indian's whose parents cam ehere in the sixties and seventies are leaving for their homeland which is on an upward economic curve. They see the mess the UK is in and are jumping ship.I dont really blame them. They do not wish to live in a society where culture is becoming so diluted and disparate any sense of community cohesion is slowly being lost.
The immigration policy in this country is a shambles and has been so for ten years. Emigration has always churned the population to a lesser degree but the gathering momentum says as much for the failures of this pathetic government as it does for anything else. The sooner it realises that money is not the only God to be worshipped and national identity and a sense of well being are also equally cherished by the hoi polloy, the common people. People like myself, possibly you, and millions of others whom they continue to treat with utter contempt.
Jaws. You said:-
"j4bberw0ck, with Child Benefit what you describe already happens. Those with sufficient income get a besic rate, those without a sufficient income are entitled to additional allowances"
This is INCORRECT.
Dress it up any way you want to, your statement was what happens with Child Tax Credit.OK, I will rephrase what I said. Those who do not have insufficient income (ie, sufficient income) get nothing other than Child Benefit. Those who do not have sufficient income (Fall below the Means Tested Level) are entitled to additional allowances (Child Tax Credit).
I apologise for any confusion I may have caused by my not checking the latest terms and correct phraseology.
I would imagine anyone coming to stay in the UK would consider what they will be entitled to when they arrive here. Since Child Benefit is paid regardless of income or savings, it is obviously money they can be guaranteed to receive when they arrive. Might be seen as an incentive by some people.So what you are saying is that there is a direct link between the number of immigrants coming to Britain and the benefits paid by the Government for help with bringing up children. Further to that, such monies being paid are an incentive which is a contributory factor to immigration and thus without such monies there would be no problem with immigration.
To describe that idea bluntly, people who immigrate to Britain do so because of the handouts they can get from the State at our expense.
That accusation is as old as the hills and I would suspect that the same rubbish was being spouted when the Huguenots arrived in Britain four Centuries ago.
But I believe that as long as there is such a geographical hurdle in getting to somewhere like Caithness, the county's demograph will always be years behind that of major cities down south - even behind somewhere like Inverness. Because of this, people in Caithnesses opinions and beliefs will not be based on hard fact and evidence / experience but more on what the read and hear.
This has been particularly obvious in the last couple of threads that have discussed migrants in the UK.Does that also apply to people who spent 20 years living Preston followed by 30 years living in Inner City Salford? (For you poor dear out of touch Caithnessians that's the City attached to Manchester ands with the same Inner City problems).
How about having relatives who lived on Upper Warwick Street in Toxteth, Liverpool? (You may have heard of Toxteth)
Mind you, never having seen the big world outside Caithness I wouldn't know about such places.
Insulting the people of Caithness as some sort of Aliens who are from a different planet with no concept of real life does not go down well with this incomer.
However, I do find it explains certain attitudes toward immigration.
Does that also apply to people who spent 20 years living Preston followed by 30 years living in Inner City Salford? (For you poor dear out of touch Caithnessians that's the City attached to Manchester ands with the same Inner City problems).
How about having relatives who lived on Upper Warwick Street in Toxteth, Liverpool? (You may have heard of Toxteth)
Mind you, never having seen the big world outside Caithness I wouldn't know about such places.
Insulting the people of Caithness as some sort of Aliens who are from a different planet with no concept of real life does not go down well with this incomer.
However, I do find it explains certain attitudes toward immigration.
Whooaaaaa horsey.
I'm born and bred in Caithness as well mind. I was very very explicit about stating that it was a % of the population not everyone.
Are you trying to say that someone who has lived all their lives in Thurso is going to have as reasoned and experienced an opinion on immigration as someone like you who has witnessed this first hand, Jaws?
And, for the record, I have sat in a previous thread and defended the Polish who make up a large percentage of the community in Aberdeen where I have lived since moving from Thurso 4 months ago.
Please do not presume that I am insulting people from Thurso. I was merely stating that people from Caithness have not had as much first hand experience with the migrant population as others in other parts of the UK.
Maybe I'm insulting all Austrailians for saying they don't have much experience with snow?
I often hear government ministers defending immigration by saying 'it benefits the economy'
Well, it first of all benefits the immigrants. That said work gets done, often because indigenous workers are displaced or undermined. But the crux of the matter is it is not just about money.
This government knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. What does it say about our country when record numbers who were born and raised here want to leave. It's not all about the weather, taxation and crime. I'd guess as many are fed up of the number of incomers from all over the world, often having no allegiance or historical link with Britain. Neighborhoods change too fast, people feel any sense of community is at best withering away. Schools have to cope with up to thirty different languages. Ask yourselves in the relative calm of Caithness, how would you feel if your child's scholastic progress was held up because half the class did not speak English and needed special attention?
There are further millions who would leave like a shot if they had the wherewithall to do it. This exodus further distirts the ethnic make up of those who are left. This seismic movement of people which is now approaching biblical terms is not just affecting Britain of course, though for many we seem the destination of choice.
The stresses on housing have resulted in a ridiculous explosion of asking prices for modest homes. Many young folk have no hope of ever affording a conventional mortgage. Health services are under increasing pressure too.
So it's not just money. The truth is that wealthy people are getting wealthier on the backs of cheap immigrant labour. Insulated in their leafy lanes with their large houses they of course do not feel the alienation so many 'ordinary' people' in poorer areas have to face everyday.
Even second generation Indian's whose parents cam ehere in the sixties and seventies are leaving for their homeland which is on an upward economic curve. They see the mess the UK is in and are jumping ship.I dont really blame them. They do not wish to live in a society where culture is becoming so diluted and disparate any sense of community cohesion is slowly being lost.
The immigration policy in this country is a shambles and has been so for ten years. Emigration has always churned the population to a lesser degree but the gathering momentum says as much for the failures of this pathetic government as it does for anything else. The sooner it realises that money is not the only God to be worshipped and national identity and a sense of well being are also equally cherished by the hoi polloy, the common people. People like myself, possibly you, and millions of others whom they continue to treat with utter contempt.
Well you certainly are on your toboggan Percy. Take your high pressure pills and calm down. The country is not half as bad as you think. Have a look at the problems some poor folk have and the recent tragedies.
You are correct in one aspect - half the pupils in classes in Caithness do not speak English - or at least it sounds like that to a Cattach coming from where the purest English is spoken!!!
Even second generation Indian's whose parents cam ehere in the sixties and seventies are leaving for their homeland which is on an upward economic curve. They see the mess the UK is in and are jumping ship.I dont really blame them. They do not wish to live in a society where culture is becoming so diluted and disparate any sense of community cohesion is slowly being lost..
The quality of our community is crucial for whether we make friends and how safe we feel Unfortunately some people view incomers as a threat whether they are foreign or from within their own country, and therefore are suspicious of them and their motives for being there.
As Percy Tobaggon rightly states:
The immigration policy in this country is a shambles and has been so for ten years. Emigration has always churned the population to a lesser degree but the gathering momentum says as much for the failures of this pathetic government as it does for anything else. The sooner it realises that money is not the only God to be worshipped and national identity and a sense of well being are also equally cherished by the hoi polloy, the common people. People like myself, possibly you, and millions of others whom they continue to treat with utter contempt.
But it is not just the Immigration Policy that is shambolic, we just have to look at the state of the political arena these days and how it has deteriorated over the years with certain politicians being caught with their fingers in the till (so to speak) and being allowed back into government circles with the excuse that "we are all human" and people make mistakes. I personally believe that politicians should be "squeaky clean" as they are there to run the country for the benefits of the population/country. That kind of attitude sends out a certain type of message, rightly or wrongly, and certainly does not inspire people to have faith in politicians etc. Which is probably a reason why, our happiness levels in society have been affected since WW2 and what we percieve as "moral values/standards" have fallen by the wayside over the last 10/20 years.
Caithness like many other rural communities is indeed sheltered form some aspects of society, and in some cases people are not bothered what goes on outside their own spheres. Many years ago whilst in Barrow in Furness, I found that it was very insulated against the main cut and thrust of society and at times it felt that you where cut off from the rest of the country litterally (no wonder they used to call the road to Barrow as the longest cul de sac in the country).
Are we truly ready for racial and cultural harmony as a nation?
Sometimes I think not.
Ciao,
OK, I will rephrase what I said. Those who do not have insufficient income (ie, sufficient income) get nothing other than Child Benefit. Those who do not have sufficient income (Fall below the Means Tested Level) are entitled to additional allowances (Child Tax Credit).
I apologise for any confusion I may have caused by my not checking the latest terms and correct phraseology.
So what you are saying is that there is a direct link between the number of immigrants coming to Britain and the benefits paid by the Government for help with bringing up children. Further to that, such monies being paid are an incentive which is a contributory factor to immigration and thus without such monies there would be no problem with immigration.
To describe that idea bluntly, people who immigrate to Britain do so because of the handouts they can get from the State at our expense.
That accusation is as old as the hills and I would suspect that the same rubbish was being spouted when the Huguenots arrived in Britain four Centuries ago.
I look at the situation by putting myself in the position of someone contemplating coming to the UK. I do not believe that everyone who comes here already has a job to walk into. I cannot, and I don't believe for one minute that you can, tell the percentage of people who come to the UK with the intention of obtaining work. Even if we concentrate solely on those who are looking for work we have to look at the fact that they will probably claim all benefits to which they are entitled while they are not in work. In my mind it is common sense that the better the level of state benefits available, the more likely it is that it is feasible for people to enter the country to seek employment, or, worst case scenario, "sponge" the system.
Dismissing other people's views as rubbish is a pretty poor tactic. I would analyse some of your own input before decrying that of others. For example, what on Earth has the situation with the Huguenot's 400 years ago got to do with the status of things here and now. Did they move en masse to the nearest social security for their giro, child benefit, crisis loan and then onwards to the offie for a bottle of buckie and 40 Regal?
Midi2304, as you say, there have numerous threads on the subject of Immigration of late, in fact, as soon as one ends another very surprisingly seems to appear starting exactly the same thing worded slightly differently but with the same implications.
Those who do not agree that immigrants are the cause of each and every problem in Britain and that all will be wonderful if only we stopped them are dismissed as being out of touch or too stupid to know what is happening.
A lot of people in Caithness - not all, perhaps not even the majority - but a significant % of the Caithness population are relatively sheltered from the real world. This is changing. Broadband is making a huge difference.
But I believe that as long as there is such a geographical hurdle in getting to somewhere like Caithness, the county's demograph will always be years behind that of major cities down south - even behind somewhere like Inverness. Because of this, people in Caithnesses opinions and beliefs will not be based on hard fact and evidence / experience but more on what the read and hear.
This has been particularly obvious in the last couple of threads that have discussed migrants in the UK.I think the implication about those people on the Board who disagree with the perception of Immigrants in those threads is quite clear.
That is that,
“This has been particularly obvious in the last couple of threads that have discussed migrants in the UK.” Because,
“somewhere like Caithness, the county's demograph will always be years behind that of major cities down south - even behind somewhere like Inverness. Because of this, people in Caithnesses opinions and beliefs will not be based on hard fact and evidence / experience but more on what the read and hear.”
Your dismissal of the views of Caithnessians is only exceeded by the attitude displayed in this and the other almost identical previous Threads in their highly imaginative portrayal of Immigrants.
I have not checked, but I would suspect that many of those holding a different opinion are, just as I am, well aware of life "even behind somewhere like Inverness."
I would also think that Australians who know the Snowy Mountains would be highly insulted by your suggestion that they knew nothing about snow.
Scorrie, you obviously were not listening to Radio Scotland yesterday when one of the Presenters, during a discussion on Immigration, mentioned that someone who had been doing work at her home had pointed out that he would, being the descendent of Huguenots and he could well imagine the same attitudes from certain people then.
I was making the point that, with every influx of immigrants, the same claims have been made also without any real foundation as they will, no doubt, still be made in another 400 years.
Fear of something different simply because it is different in nothing new and never will be but that does not mean it is necessarily correct.
As for my putting myself in the position of those coming to this country, no I would not expect any Country I immigrated to to keep me at their expense and I'm sure that the same goes for the vast majority of people who wish to come here.
"They just want to come here and sponge off us", is blatant scaremongering and nothing else!
I pay for my children. Me. I have worked all my life david, I have no money, nothing to show for it. I own a house i dont live in and without my child benefits and tax credits i wouldnt have actually managed the last five years. I dont think i will ever recover financially from the break up of my marriage and i will probably never live again in a house that i own. And you think we should remove child benefits? I earn a reasonable wage for hereabouts but i have to live in private rented property and get no reductions on rent or council tax. I have to run a car because of where i live. I have to feed clothe and support my kids. I dont have an overdraft and i dont have any loans or credit cards because i couldnt afford to pay them back. Child benefit is a vital part of my finances and without it i think i would sink.
Very good squidge, you should be proud of yourself, but you know as well as me that by professing your self-proclaimed virtues you are being an apologist and /or diverting the spotlight of discussion away from the thousands that don't act so properly.
Scorrie, you obviously were not listening to Radio Scotland yesterday when one of the Presenters, during a discussion on Immigration, mentioned that someone who had been doing work at her home had pointed out that he would, being the descendent of Huguenots and he could well imagine the same attitudes from certain people then.
I was making the point that, with every influx of immigrants, the same claims have been made also without any real foundation as they will, no doubt, still be made in another 400 years.
Fear of something different simply because it is different in nothing new and never will be but that does not mean it is necessarily correct.
As for my putting myself in the position of those coming to this country, no I would not expect any Country I immigrated to to keep me at their expense and I'm sure that the same goes for the vast majority of people who wish to come here.
"They just want to come here and sponge off us", is blatant scaremongering and nothing else!
So, does being a Radio Scotland presenter make your argument more correct? Who is to say that the person making the claim about a situation 400 years ago being comperable to today is accurate simply because they are descended from the social group in question? Were tax payers of the day funding a system that handed out monies to incoming peoples? If not, then how can it be compared to the system that is operating today?
Ok, you would not expect a country that you had moved to to support you at their expense but you have no evidence whatever about what is in the minds of the majority of the people who come to Britain. I can only repeat that if I were in that position myself I would choose the country which provided the greatest safety net in the event of me being unable to secure a job quickly.
I am simply pointing out that the same fears are brought into play everytime there is a noticeable increase in Immigration.
It always has happened and always will, the example I gave is not specific and trying to make it so is what is irrelevant. I just happened to use that example because it was one in my mind. Had I checked for others I could have found any number of instances.
I used an example from history because, had I used a more modern example, it would simply have been used to try and raise the temperature of the accusations and invited other prejudices to be brought into play in order to attack immigrants.
Fortunately, we tend in this day and age simply to complain about them even though there are those who would wish for us to turn to the old tried and trusted method of physically driving them out and when that fails resorting to extremes of violence.
As for Immigrants coming here with the sole intention of being kept by the State indefinitely, and I am speaking of those who come here legally, there is absolutely no facts to show that they have any such intention at all.
The only things which are used to make people believe it is so are prejudice, suspicion, exaggerations and nothing more!
Even if we concentrate solely on those who are looking for work we have to look at the fact that they will probably claim all benefits to which they are entitled while they are not in work. In my mind it is common sense that the better the level of state benefits available, the more likely it is that it is feasible for people to enter the country to seek employment, or, worst case scenario, "sponge" the system.
Just to point out a slight problem with the generalized thought behind immigrants ready to claim all the free money thrown at them the moment they desembark from the aeroplane.........
Taken from CIAC Immigration UK:
Benefits
Citizens of the new member states coming to the UK will be entitled to benefits only if they work. Regulations say they are entitled to Welfare Benefits if they are in employment - housing benefit for example. However, if they lose theit job they will have to support themselves. They may also be eligible for Working Tax Credit, Child Tax Credit, Child Benefit and Council Tax Benefit. If they lose their job, however, they will not be able to claim Income Support or Jobseekers Allowance. After 12 months of continuous employment, restrictions to benefits will be lifted.
Now I know someone is going to tell me it refers to the new countries, but when I came here I got a social security number after having the job. In otherwords, I was paying tax before being enabled to apply for any credits or theoretical benefits.
I am a EU citizen so I cannot tell you how it works for other countries, but logically it will be more difficult for non comon wealth and non EU immigrants apply to the benefit/welfare system.
If we are going to be so quick to point fingers at people milking welfare sytems, then they should be pointed as well to the many, many people from the UK leaving for the El-Dourado of their later years. Many UK citizens leave chasing the sun (apparently 500 a day). Since my experience is limited to the EU, I will only consider those that are going to EU countries, where they will be entitled to health care and be on the social security system of a country to which they contributed nothing ( except maybe tax on the property they are living in). They expect and are entitled to the same treatment of anyone born, bred and paying taxes in that country, yet many are not productive in the sense that an immigrant coming here for work is.
I am simply pointing out that the same fears are brought into play everytime there is a noticeable increase in Immigration.
It always has happened and always will, the example I gave is not specific and trying to make it so is what is irrelevant. I just happened to use that example because it was one in my mind. Had I checked for others I could have found any number of instances.
I used an example from history because, had I used a more modern example, it would simply have been used to try and raise the temperature of the accusations and invited other prejudices to be brought into play in order to attack immigrants.
Fortunately, we tend in this day and age simply to complain about them even though there are those who would wish for us to turn to the old tried and trusted method of physically driving them out and when that fails resorting to extremes of violence.
As for Immigrants coming here with the sole intention of being kept by the State indefinitely, and I am speaking of those who come here legally, there is absolutely no facts to show that they have any such intention at all.
The only things which are used to make people believe it is so are prejudice, suspicion, exaggerations and nothing more!
My last post on this as we are getting into straw man country here.
You stated thus:-
As for my putting myself in the position of those coming to this country, no I would not expect any Country I immigrated to to keep me at their expense and I'm sure that the same goes for the vast majority of people who wish to come here.
The onus is on YOU to prove your statement correct, not for me to produce statistics to disprove it.
This Thread originally was about the number of people entering and leaving Britain.
At some stage Benefits and Child Benefit of various kinds were introduced into the equation.
I will repeat my original question on the connection between the two,
Is there some direct connection between the two which means that if the above were abolished then the Immigration Problem, real or imagined, would immediately cease?
That answer has never been answered directly but skirted round and avoided.
I ask the same question again. Not what I would do if I was emigrating, which is a total irrelevance, not what I "think" might be in the minds of Immigrants coming here, but where is the direct connection and would not paying the various Child Benefits make any difference to immigration.
Turning it round by responding to a question with a question and then saying I am not proving a negative is only a method of avoiding answering the question.
All that is left is totally unfounded allegations and innuendo about the intentions of all people who wish to come to Britain!
Does anyone question the right of these ex-pats to take their money out of the UK, I wonder....)
As someone who worked his butt of for 20 years in UK, then decided to accept a job overseas, partly for the increased financial benefit and partly for the global experience it would give my 2 young kids, I have to ask, are you serious about this question?
You correctly state that it is MY money, earned by getting 'off my backside' and working for it and paying my taxes. What 'right' do I need to pack up and leave the country with it because I've been lucky enough to be offered a new opportunity, and why then should I hand it back....and to whom? The government?
By the way....my money is still invested in UK!
As someone who worked his butt of for 20 years in UK, then decided to accept a job overseas, partly for the increased financial benefit and partly for the global experience it would give my 2 young kids, I have to ask, are you serious about this question?
You correctly state that it is MY money, earned by getting 'off my backside' and working for it and paying my taxes. What 'right' do I need to pack up and leave the country with it because I've been lucky enough to be offered a new opportunity, and why then should I hand it back....and to whom? The government?
By the way....my money is still invested in UK!
Phil R, I do not question your right to do so, however my right to do so has been questioned many a time on this very board. That is why I possed the question as a did.
Phil R, I do not question your right to do so, however my right to do so has been questioned many a time on this very board. That is why I possed the question as a did.Well said, Ju. We Brits, at least some of us, complain bitterly about all those nasty foreigners coming here to sponge off us etc. etc.
What they completely forget is that which ever Country you go to in the World you will find ex-Patriot Brits, many of whom will include the Country their Ancestors emigrated from, in some cases, centuries ago.
In some Countries we Brits emigrated to we have, quite intentionally, completely displaced the Native Population, so they can protect their way of life of course, and in one case having deliberately committed Genocide. (I suspect because they had the cheek to object to us taking their livelihoods).
“As you sow, so shall ye reap!” So what have we got to complain about?
This Thread originally was about the number of people entering and leaving Britain.
At some stage Benefits and Child Benefit of various kinds were introduced into the equation.
I will repeat my original question on the connection between the two,
That answer has never been answered directly but skirted round and avoided.
I ask the same question again. Not what I would do if I was emigrating, which is a total irrelevance, not what I "think" might be in the minds of Immigrants coming here, but where is the direct connection and would not paying the various Child Benefits make any difference to immigration.
Turning it round by responding to a question with a question and then saying I am not proving a negative is only a method of avoiding answering the question.
All that is left is totally unfounded allegations and innuendo about the intentions of all people who wish to come to Britain!
The human being is a largely predictable creature. Motivated by the same things, which are relatively few in number. Money is one of those things. It is therefore, for people with the necessary intelligence and open-mindedness, a useful tool to be able to put oneself in anothers position to predict a prognosis of events. To dismiss it as totally irrelevant is both ignorant and arrogant. Very little in life can be unequivocally proven, it is normally a case of using common sense and logic to make predictions. I made an attempt to answer your question earlier, stating that it was common sense that a country willing to hand out money would be more popular than one that did not. That may be pretty simple logic but logic it is. You cannot say that a question was avoided simply because you do not like the answer.
I am firmly of the opinion that you would argue that black was white with me but it worries me not as I consider that your arguments are waffling in nature and pretty illogical. You also seem to think that the best way to prove a point is by endless repetition and the belief that more words are better than a few. I will leave you to have your usual last word.
i noticed on the news today that more folkes are leaving the country than entering:~(
The people leaving are those that are fed up with being taxed at every turn (speeding, green issues etc) and are convinced that a sufficient amount of morons exist in the UK that will vote for those taxes to make life more attractive in other countries.
UK governments of late are spending all the taxes on propping up their regime, with none of it actually supporting what it is meant to.
Last one out, turn off the lights
What answer, scorrie? Will immigration be stopped or even reduced where the various Child Allowances stopped?
Not only have you not answered that question Your "logic" is that immigrants who come here and, in fact those who leave here for that matter, do so by deciding where they can best get something for nothing.
I rather think that there are a many members who have both come to Britain and who have left to move abroad who would take great issue with you on that matter.
All you have done is suggest that Human Nature is to take and not to give. I beg to differ. If that is waffling then so be it.
Others can decide if they see most people as greedy, grasping and only interested in getting as much as they can for a little as they possible or if the majority of people are basically decent and willing to put in as much as they get out of a society.
If human nature is so predictable and immigrants are only interested in where they can get the most handouts then that must go for the people of Britain and indeed Caithness also,
Unless, of course you are saying that we are somehow better than the rest of humanity.
I can think of many professions which people enter as a vocation with money coming nowhere near the top their reasons.
When I moved to Caithness it certainly wasn't because of money, that was the last thing on my mind.
What makes you think I am in some way singling you out for special treatment, scorrie? Others have made the same allegations about Immigrants motives as you, are you saying I have agreed with them and done the opposite with you? If anybody checks back then I suspect they will find differently.
This is the second thread tonight where the accusation has been made that there is only one point of view and that posters who disagree are somehow lacking in intelligence. Fortunately I have always found that stupidity isn't contagious.
Alice in Blunderland
04-Nov-06, 23:58
I have read with interest the posts on this thread and find myself agreeing and disagreeing with many.
On the issue of immigration I feel that its the governments policys at fault for allowing the situation to continue as it is.If they leave the door wide open many people will walk through it.
There is a system in place for not allowing people to come into this country and immediately start scrounging of the state but as with all things people soon find a way around the system to make it work for them.
I can only speak for my husband ,but to let you all know how it works for some, when he first wanted to enter this country to look for work he had to have a sponsor.This person had to send details of his employment ,salary, bank account details, housing (mortagagae statements) and many other peices of paper to the home office saying that in all events he would be responsible for my husband.He was issued a visa to enter Britain to study and then to look for work.Until he found a job he had to stay with his uncle and be supported by him which I think is right.Before gaining employment he had to sit an English test both written and oral which does no harm and again the issue of their English not being up to scratch should be taken up with the board who passes them as fluent in English. It would be a good idea if all people coming into this country could speak English or even learn it.That said with all the regional accents and such sometimes our own English isnt that good we complain about call centres how many of us on the phone have been asked to repeat ourselves as the Caithness accent isnt easy to understand over the phone.:Razz
He has worked in this country for over ten years paying heavily into a system which he may never see a penny out of but has never complained as he accepts that this is the way of this government.
Many overseas workers come to this country to work and better themselves its human nature to want to get on in life (for some) and earn the best as you can for your family.
Many British citizens work abroad and indeed retire abroad.
If we didnt have migrant workers to blame who would we blame.Yes we have a problem and it does need addressing and if not soon the backlash will affect good honest hard working people coming into this country legitimately as well as the scroungers both home grown and imported.
What answer, scorrie? Will immigration be stopped or even reduced where the various Child Allowances stopped?
Not only have you not answered that question Your "logic" is that immigrants who come here and, in fact those who leave here for that matter, do so by deciding where they can best get something for nothing.
I rather think that there are a many members who have both come to Britain and who have left to move abroad who would take great issue with you on that matter.
All you have done is suggest that Human Nature is to take and not to give. I beg to differ. If that is waffling then so be it.
Others can decide if they see most people as greedy, grasping and only interested in getting as much as they can for a little as they possible or if the majority of people are basically decent and willing to put in as much as they get out of a society.
If human nature is so predictable and immigrants are only interested in where they can get the most handouts then that must go for the people of Britain and indeed Caithness also,
Unless, of course you are saying that we are somehow better than the rest of humanity.
I can think of many professions which people enter as a vocation with money coming nowhere near the top their reasons.
When I moved to Caithness it certainly wasn't because of money, that was the last thing on my mind.
What makes you think I am in some way singling you out for special treatment, scorrie? Others have made the same allegations about Immigrants motives as you, are you saying I have agreed with them and done the opposite with you? If anybody checks back then I suspect they will find differently.
This is the second thread tonight where the accusation has been made that there is only one point of view and that posters who disagree are somehow lacking in intelligence. Fortunately I have always found that stupidity isn't contagious.
Point one, can you even understand what I am talking about? I said that there are very few definitive answers in this world. I am NOT talking about people leaving the UK here, the Benefit System WITHIN the UK hardly applies to those who are moving abroad. If you could grasp that as a starting point then perhaps we might get somewhere.
I could not care whether people entering or leaving the UK would take issue with me. Why is that relevant? I am expressing my opinion, it seems to be a need of yours to pull others into the equation in some desperate attempt to find some support by oblivious proxy for your own opinion. That is a sure sign of insecurity.
People resident to Britain/Caithness are also receiving benefits but they have not necessarily moved here to take advantage of them and they can be in a situation where low wages force them to claim benefits. I know of people who still get £3 per hour.
"Others can decide", ah yes, lets appeal to the masses again to support ones weak debating powers and insecurity.
On the "Black/White", "Special Treatment" issue, I am obviously talking about more than this thread. I would not be so unscientific as to base a theorem on a single thread.
Your last word is eagerly anticipated ;o)
Scorrie, it is you who suggested that people move to Countries where they can get the greatest benefits and are motivated by money.
Are you suggesting that only people coming to Britain are so motivated whilst those going elsewhere are not?
I understand perfectly what you are talking about. I have heard the same claims made time and time again without anybody providing anything, other than claiming that it has to be true, to show that it is factual.
We provide Benefits, they are here therefore they are here because of the Benefits. Sounds simple enough even for me to understand what you are saying.
Even a cynical, vitriolic simpleton like me has a little more faith in humanity than that.
Provide me with something to show that your claims concerning Benefits are anything other than a prejudicial view of foreigners coming to this country and I will accept your version.
I can’t say fairer than that. .
We Brits, at least some of us, complain bitterly about all those nasty foreigners coming here to sponge off us etc. etc.
What they completely forget is that which ever Country you go to in the World you will find ex-Patriot Brits, .......
In some Countries we Brits emigrated to we have, quite intentionally, completely displaced the Native Population, so they can protect their way of life of course, and in one case having deliberately committed Genocide. (I suspect because they had the cheek to object to us taking their livelihoods).
“As you sow, so shall ye reap!” So what have we got to complain about?
Not sure which era you're thinking of here Jaws, but things have changed a bit since the days of the empire! That may have been true once, as it was for many parts of the world, but nowadays most Brits (myself included) have had job offers from the country in question because they dont have the skill-sets needed to develop as they want. I hadn't planned to emigrate, but the package on offer and potential experience for my kids was something I decided to take on (Greedy?....debatable. Lucky?....damm right!)
Speaking for Kuwait, there are about 5,000 Brits here. We're here because they invited us here. We don't sponge off the state. We dont expect or get any handouts. Everything we buy is from what we earn with hard work. If we lose our jobs we have to leave the country, and we respect local laws and religions. No questions, no arguments.
Ask any expat abroad what annoys them most about UK at the moment, and the majority will site the 'soft option' we're seen as, the apparent inability of the government to tackle the problem, and the cost of living for the British taxpayer who has to support illegal immigrants.
Speaking for Kuwait, there are about 5,000 Brits here. We're here because they invited us here. We don't sponge off the state. We dont expect or get any handouts. .
A wee question as your so knowlegable. How many Kuwaities are over here getting free medical treatment and the like off our NHS? I am just curious
A wee question as your so knowlegable. How many Kuwaities are over here getting free medical treatment and the like off our NHS? I am just curious
How many immigrants are sponging off the Russians? They are in their droves there as well.
A wee question as your so knowlegable. How many Kuwaities are over here getting free medical treatment and the like off our NHS? I am just curious
How many immigrants are sponging off the Russians? They are in their droves there as well.
Ask any expat abroad what annoys them most about UK at the moment, and the majority will site the 'soft option' we're seen as, the apparent inability of the government to tackle the problem, and the cost of living for the British taxpayer who has to support illegal immigrants.
It seems to me ( and correct me if I am wrong, with a chorus of protests) that once again immigrant, illegal immigrant and assylum seeker are being lumped into one sordid bag and take your pick.
Illegal immigrants are not collecting benefits, or if they are, they are fraudulently doing so. They have no social security number and do not pay taxes.
Assylum seekers are kept on benefits, and it is the government that determines who is an assylum seeker and who is not. An assylum seeker is not fraudulently claiming benefits, however much that may grate against the personal opinions on this board.
Immigrants are people that work, pay into the system, pay for their own up-keep, contribute to the economy and society. They PAYE through their noses with a chunk of their salary as great as anyone UK citizen in the same circumstances. If they have a family ( that they are sustaining) they are entitled to working tax credits and child benefits as is anyother contributing citizen of this country. If they do make these claims, it is not illegal...it is their right as tax payers.
A wee question as your so knowlegable. How many Kuwaities are over here getting free medical treatment and the like off our NHS? I am just curious
No need for them to come to UK, Golach.....their medical service here is free to native Kuwaitis, and the private medical sector is mostly staffed by expats who have been recruited for their higher skills. I think you'll find that any Kuwaitis in UK for medical treatment are there for specialist treatment and funding it themselves. Did you have a case in mind?
Sorry to dampen your sarcasm!
No need for them to come to UK, Golach.....their medical service here is free to native Kuwaitis, and the private medical sector is mostly staffed by expats who have been recruited for their higher skills. I think you'll find that any Kuwaitis in UK for medical treatment are there for specialist treatment and funding it themselves. Did you have a case in mind?
Sorry to dampen your sarcasm!
Thanks for you prompt answer no sarcasm was given or intended, it was a question
Ask any expat abroad what annoys them most about UK at the moment, and the majority will site the 'soft option' we're seen as, the apparent inability of the government to tackle the problem, and the cost of living for the British taxpayer who has to support illegal immigrants.
But the figures which were quoted at the beginning of the thread were about immigrants who are here legally.
People who are here illegally are a different matter altogether. Unfortunately some people seem unable to differentiate between the two and are happy to class them all in the same way as "Foreign Scroungers".
it doesn't matter how you look at this, but as far as i am concerned its the hard working man or woman who is the paymaster general of our country, it doesn't matter where you come from or who you are,nothing is going to change until we as people make it change, and for that to happen we as people have to change. The (CON) is this, the harder you work the more you have to pay, the more you get the more it costs and in the end it's all for nothing. Myself and my partner were renting a council house one day we decided that it would be nice if we could have a bigger house so that our friends and relations could come to stay from time to time. So we went to the council and guess what? we had no chance. So our only other option was to buy, we bought a bigger house, to be able to afford the deposit we had to work really hard plenty of overtime and such, guess what? yep the bloody taxman went off with a lump of our money,because the harder you work the more you pay, so we get on the property ladder and guess what? yep our council tax goes up and why? simply because we bought a house that was of a higher value than the council house that we rented. Now while all this was going on a former neighbour of mine who was unemployed his wife was unemployed and has five children. This man has no visible income other than state benefits, and has openly admitted that he has never worked a day in his life and has no intention of doing so, has a nice fairly new car and a pickup outside his front door, he has a nice 4 bedroomed house paid for by the taxpayer, pays little or no council tax, his house is maintained by the council, has his 5 children in school paid for by the taxpayer, gets his refuse collected, street lighting provided for him , free prescriptions , free dental care , free health care all paid for by the hard working taxpayer and when he is old he told me that they will just have to put him in a home and keep him untill he dies and then the taxpayer can pay for that to. So the message i get from that is if you work hard and save all your money when your old and needing care the government will take it all from you anyway. So the question is why work at all when at the end of the day you will have nothing for it. So i am not surprised that people get angry and upset after all the government doesn't do enough about managing our tax pounds. people coming here to work legally isin't the problem. The problem is our government and our way of governing the country.... We as people need to change before we can implement the changes that are necessary to cure our problems..
David from Stockport
05-Nov-06, 20:32
Im with you maverick ive said it plenty of times - i work 6/7 days a week and dont go out in an attempt to save for a deposit to get back on the housing ladder but im peeing in the wind - others dont work and get provided with everything , there s no incentive to work hard only personal pride , here in England they put them in buy to let propertys on private estates so that really winds you up . Bring in workfare like some American states have done make them work for there benifits
People who are here illegally are a different matter altogether. Unfortunately some people seem unable to differentiate between the two and are happy to class them all in the same way as "Foreign Scroungers".
The tragedy is that the Government is the worst offender in that regards. They are always legitimising illegals by allowing them to stay in this country and giving them rights/benefits to allow them to stay. Why not deport them and get them to apply for immigration whilst in their country of origin like legal immigrants? Why does the Government condone 'immigration queue jumping' and do you think it is fair on those that do it legally?
Now while all this was going on a former neighbour of mine who was unemployed his wife was unemployed and has five children. This man has no visible income other than state benefits, and has openly admitted that he has never worked a day in his life and has no intention of doing so, has a nice fairly new car and a pickup outside his front door, he has a nice 4 bedroomed house paid for by the taxpayer, pays little or no council tax, his house is maintained by the council, has his 5 children in school paid for by the taxpayer, gets his refuse collected, street lighting provided for him , free prescriptions , free dental care , free health care all paid for by the hard working taxpayer and when he is old he told me that they will just have to put him in a home and keep him untill he dies and then the taxpayer can pay for that to. ..
This type I would have no compulsion of shopping at the first oppertunity, I too have worked hard all my life, paid my dues, and it makes my blood boil when I hear about this type of person.
There are free phone shop a scrounger phone lines use them I do!!!!!
Rheghead, I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately we are bound by certain Treaties we signed over the last 50 or more years.
The first thing "Illegals" do, even those arriving by regular air transport is to dispose of their Passports.
The moment the say the magic phrase, "Asylum Seeker" you are stuck with them. The fact which is conveniently forgotten is that this only applies if they go to "the nearest available Safe Country". Wandering round the World picking the Country they want is not covered.
Again, this is fine, except if they claim to come from certain Counties then they cannot be sent back because of various other Treaties we have signed.
Mention the other magic word, "torture" and you ain't going anywhere, you can't even be deported under any circumstances. "Fear of Persecution" is another magic phrase. "Wrong Religion" is another good one.
I rather suspect that certain Countries are, how can I put it politely, aware of identities of the People Smugglers and are quite happy to see certain of their citizens leave. Any attempt to return their citizens to them is met by the answer, "Only if the hold one of our Passports" and guess what they don't have. They won't have them back and it's certain nobody else will have them.
Those are only a few of the simple and straight forward ways to work the system.
As you can see, it's not difficult for them to use the rules to for their own benefit and all quite legitimate If they don't know how to work the system we have groups who are willing to educate them.
Oh yes, and it doesn't matter how ridiculous their story you mustn't question it. Well, that would imply they are deceitful and untrustworthy and that is totally unacceptable.
It's those who come here legally and obey all the correct procedures who are the mugs who have all the problems. Do things correctly, complete all the paperwork and you are easy meat. If they want you, well just follow the paper trail and there they are at the end of it!
We elected all the various Governments who signed the Treaties and Agreements so we have only ourselves to blame.
Thanks for you prompt answer no sarcasm was given or intended, it was a question
My apologies, Golach...must have had the sensitivity meter turned up too high!!
It seems to me ( and correct me if I am wrong, with a chorus of protests) that once again immigrant, illegal immigrant and assylum seeker are being lumped into one sordid bag and take your pick.
Ju, you are quite right, and many of us are guilty of this. To be more specific, it is the ones who either sneak into Britain and hide in the communities/gangs of illegal workers (look at how unsafe the streets of Dover are these days), or those who come making bogus assylum application claims, knowing full well that it may takes years for them to be repatriated, if at all, and in the meantime they will be housed and fed from our taxes.
Just as an aside, and linking to another thread, I'm all in favour of Polish craftsmen coming to UK to legitimately earn a living. Having used them myself, the majority are skilled, honest and hardworking (as well as a fraction of the price). At long last the cowboys amongst our plumbers, builders and electricians are getting a wake-up call!
Midi2304, as you say, there have numerous threads on the subject of Immigration of late, in fact, as soon as one ends another very surprisingly seems to appear starting exactly the same thing worded slightly differently but with the same implications.
Those who do not agree that immigrants are the cause of each and every problem in Britain and that all will be wonderful if only we stopped them are dismissed as being out of touch or too stupid to know what is happening.
I think the implication about those people on the Board who disagree with the perception of Immigrants in those threads is quite clear.
That is that, Because,
Your dismissal of the views of Caithnessians is only exceeded by the attitude displayed in this and the other almost identical previous Threads in their highly imaginative portrayal of Immigrants.
I have not checked, but I would suspect that many of those holding a different opinion are, just as I am, well aware of life "even behind somewhere like Inverness."
I would also think that Australians who know the Snowy Mountains would be highly insulted by your suggestion that they knew nothing about snow.
Wow. I am in shock. I have to say I have always held your posts in very high regard Jaws because they always seem to be well thought through.
I think you have somewhat let yourself down this time.
As I have already stated, it is a percentage. I'm not going to quote figures but, knowing nothing about either person, who do you think will have more experience of snow - someone from Austria or someone from Austriaila? So who's point of view are we going to take as being more knowledgeable? Of course in any population you will get anomalies - like the Snowy Mountains you mention. These are the minority.
Now, people in Wick or people in London... Which are going to have more day-to-day experience with immigration? It's not a trick question.
So who is generally (GENERALLY - I KNOW THIS IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE BUT I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE MAJORITY HERE) going to have the more experienced and valid view?
Those who do not agree that immigrants are the cause of each and every problem in Britain and that all will be wonderful if only we stopped them are dismissed as being out of touch or too stupid to know what is happening.
Maybe I am getting confused here but are you implying that I am accusing people who defend immigrants or being in the wrong? Because the exact opposite is true. I believe there are far too many people on these boards indiscriminately attacking migrants when we need to be looking at urselves as a nation for a lot of the problems we are experiencing.
I apologise if I have misquoted you.
Whether you like it or not, or whether or not you think my other arguments are or are not value (and I do honestly appreciate good debate and discussion) the fact remains that Caithness does survive in a bit of a bubble compared to other parts of the UK. As such, people's opinions within the community are not by any means invalid, but they do have to stand up to closer scrutiny, IMO, than people such as your relatives in Toxteth who experience the problem every day of their lives.
"They just want to come here and sponge off us", is blatant scaremongering and nothing else!
I could not agree with this statement more.
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