View Full Version : Life, and death, in 'Atomic City'
It's not every day you see a Caithness man credited in the headlines on the front page of The Scotsman. Congratulations to that man! :D
See Life, and death, in 'Atomic City' (http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1343&id=1621272006)
I had a good laugh when I read:
Dounreay's distinctive dome, 'like the Death Star from Star Wars', can be seen from miles away.
I've never before heard the dome compared to my former fortress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Star). Thanks for smuggling me into the story. :cool:
As for the serious stuff on ill-health, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the allusions therein were regarded as libellous in some quarters. I can recommend a good lawyer!
Dounreay may have done a lot of good in the community, but it has also done a lot of "Cultural Damage" in Caithness.
What do you think?
Ciao,
danc1ngwitch
02-Nov-06, 15:51
Ruined ma day at the beach... after coming back from being abroad i took the children to the beach, i was layed there in the sun ma big belly acting as a wind sheild, when i noticed there was not another soul on the beach.. i gave ma boyz a call and said hey how come there is no one here.. The middle Lad said " ah mum maybe because of the sign at the start of the beach". to which i replyed "sign", he laughed and said " yes the beach could be contaminated".. Ah heck i was there so i stayed... but on a serious note, i dunno wot to think...
Thanks DrSzin for posting the link.
And thanks The Pepsi Challenge for a fantastic article.
Murdina Bug
02-Nov-06, 16:31
Was Barry Gordon sponsored by Lorraine Mann's tribe for this piece of diabolical writing?! No wonder there is so much hysteria around the nuclear industry when such claptrap is front page news. I really would like to know who put him up to it and why print it now? What relevance does it have to anything current apart from trying to put a bad slant on nuclear power?
Congratulations to Barry Gordon for hitting the front page of the Scotsman.
His opinion is nothing new. Most young guys have uninformed and unbalanced emotional opinions about Dounreay.
I'm glad he got it off his chest.
peter macdonald
02-Nov-06, 17:19
Very true Gleeber but one of the problems about getting a balanced view about the nuclear industry is the lack of independant experts No disrespect to the guys who come on here and give their opinion but they have vested interests which along with the "dubious" safety records of previous managements has made the local non atomic population very wary (IMHO unjustified nowadays).
I never had any qualms about working in Dounreay in later years though I think Tony Robinsons series about the worst jobs in history should include a story about the guys who worked in the suits in the early days
A new commerical Power station should be welcolmed to help the economy ,
however I dont like the idea of Caithness being made into a dump for everybody elses waste As I said on a previous post it just aint good for the image!!!
What a thoroughly enjoyable, well written piece.
So, is nuclear power responsible for an increased rate of leukemia among Caithness people?
The verdict must be "not proven."
Leukemia is one of the few cancers linked to infection. Viruses are one likely culprit.
One famous study compared cancer rates at the area around the Sellafield nuclear reactor with data from Glenrothes new town.
A cluster of leukemia cases had been picked up by health authorities at Sellafield.
The finger of suspicion pointed at the nuclear reactor.
At that stage a brilliant, maverick scientist, Prof Leo Kinlen of the Cancer Research UK's Epidemiology Unit in Oxford turned everything upside down.
(What follows I have adapted from the Daily Telegraph 7 July 2006)
"Kinlen's committee agreed that the incidence of childhood leukaemia was high in Seascale, the village nearest Sellafield where many processing plant workers and their families lived.
"Seven cases were identified in people under the age of 25 who had lived there between 1955 and 1983. For children under the age of 10, there were five cases when they would have expected an average of 0.5. But the problem was that the known emissions were far too small to account for the cluster.
"Prof Kinlen had another idea. In 1988, in The Lancet, he suggested that an unidentified infection - possibly a virus - was responsible. Sited between the Lake District and the Irish Sea, Seascale is 37 miles from the nearest town and relatively cut off by the Cumbrian mountains.
"This isolated cul de sac had been subjected to a huge influx of people over 50 years as a result of the thousands of people who built and operated the Sellafield plant. Perhaps the Seascale cluster resulted when this influx brought viral infections with them to a rural community that was more susceptible."
Is this beginning to sound like Caithness?
Professor Kinlen next checked various sites where large numbers of incomers had descended on local populations. One such site was Glenrothes new town.
It was found that Glenrothes had a "cluster" of cancers similar to the cases in Caithness. And again and again he found the connection.
I yeild to nobody in my detestation of the current regime at Dounereay.
Buit we have to be very careful about exagerrating the health risks of living in the Atomic City.
Colin Manson
02-Nov-06, 19:04
As my dad headed for the 19th hole, I went to play on the sand dunes. Little did we know that this beach, Sandside, had already accumulated several hundred particles of irradiated nuclear fuel since the Dounreay shaft explosion in 1977 (the shaft was believed to have contained highly radioactive plutonium and enriched uranium) contaminated the foreshore.
I thought that everyone was aware of the source of the particles?
http://www.ukaea.org.uk/sites/dounreay_part_faq.html#How_did_they_get
Although the Shaft Explosion does sound more exciting I guess. :rolleyes:
martin macdonald
02-Nov-06, 19:22
the last few lines of the artical is very interesting indeed. if you cant say it when your employed at the place. then why wait untill you have lifted your lump sum and your pension is secure to say it. is hypocrosey to me im afraid:~(
buggyracer
02-Nov-06, 20:06
if a terrorist flew a plane into dounreay, chances are we would all be goners, if he flew one into a wind farm he would look pretty stupid!??
whatever the links to our health indirectly from having a nuclear plant so close to us, there is no getting away from the fact that we are living next to a potentially lethal happening? otherwise why would there not be one smack bang in the middle of london?
Colin Manson
02-Nov-06, 20:22
If a terrorist flew a plane into Dounreay, chances are we would all be goners.
Chances are very little would happen. A nuclear reactor even we it is being operated is nothing like a nuclear weapon in terms of explosive capability.
It's equivalent to expecting the effect of a rocket when lighting a sparkler. :D
I yeild to nobody in my detestation of the current regime at Dounereay.
Excellent piece Rich and it helped me to be more objective about nuclear power when I first read it.
I was under the impression that the present regime at Dounreay was spending more time being apoligists for past regimes at the nuclear plant than they are responsible for any health hazards at the moment. At least I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Gogglebox
02-Nov-06, 23:23
Telephone Lines, US Naval Base and Mobile Phones have also been blamed for leukemia clusters
I tried Googling Barry Gordon and the first site up was a BBC Comedy Site. Nuff Sed! [lol]
If you have ever had an old BT Trim Phone, the ones where the dial glowed in the dark, then your house as been a Low Level Nuclear Repository.
Perhaps you should get your house checked for Radiation and your neighbours should demand a major Public Enquiry before you hold any Christmas Parties there and for Heaven's sake don't invite Father Christmas!
I once drove past the gates at Dounreay, do I need to get my car decontaminated?
I have even worn Nuclear Products on my wrist in my youth, it was called a luminous wrist watch.
Should I dress all that up and write an article for the Press entitled "My life long flirtation with Nuclear Danger!"? Perhaps I could start a case of Mass Hysteria and have people panicking about absolutely nothing!
I read today that Down Syndrome children have a higher incidence of leukaemia. Perhaps then there is a genetic component at play in these "clusters." A fairly closed community group with the genetic tendency toward an insufficient leukaemia immunity, if infected by an outside source, could easily become a population of higher than normal rates of the disease.
rockchick
03-Nov-06, 18:52
Every person who has a smoke detector in their house has an alpha-radiation emitter! We should all be dying of cancer then...
The Pepsi Challenge
03-Nov-06, 23:32
Congratulations to Barry Gordon for hitting the front page of the Scotsman.
His opinion is nothing new. Most young guys have uninformed and unbalanced emotional opinions about Dounreay.
I'm glad he got it off his chest.
Cheers gleeber :)
A mixed reaction is what I expected in terms of feedback. And the piece was written because it is topical at the moment. But you have to remember this was Dounreay as I saw it (between the ages of 6-16), so I wouldn't get too het-up about it. Thanks for reading it, though, nonetheless.
I was a good friend of Julie's and having watched her as her illness got worse and seeing her pure spirit and energy and love of life was unbelievable and to this day, the way she thought still has a huge impact on the way I look at things, I was also very shocked when Scott Mackay sadly died of cancer also as he lived very close to Julie (before moving to America) and the 3 of us often played together as kids, being honest I don't really know what I think of Dounreay I know it has provided for so many but I often wonder if it also took away from many.
The Pepsi Challenge
04-Nov-06, 20:33
I remember Scott very well. Was shocked to hear that he'd passed away.
Apologies Pepsi, I've not read your article yet, but I will in a wee tick, I promise. Out of curiosity, you say it reflects the effect Dounreay had on your life in Thurso - has your opinion changed any now that you're a little older, a little wiser?
For the record, I'm of Pepsi's generation, and remember being absolutely appaulled when I was old enough to understand what Dounreay actually was. The thought of living so closely to something which could potentially wipe us all out in moments (as I thought), as a teenager, that gave me no end of nightmares. As an adult though, I now appreciate the employment it creates for within the community and the money it brings.
Lets face it, there's lots of things that could end our existence before we've finished reading this post - but life is too short to sit saying what if.
Just my opinion, mind... :confused
To put Dounreay and it's effects into some kind of perspective take a quick look at
http://www.portfolio.mvm.ed.ac.uk/studentwebs/session4/27/greatsmog52.htm
It covers a particularly severe, but not uncommon, case of the sort of problems other power sources can cause.
Bear in mind that the figures given cover only a small area and for the damage caused for a very short time indeed. The Government of the day set a deliberately short cut off period after which no deaths could be attributed to that particular occurrence. Or, to be brutally blunt, they were horrified by the figures and decided that the truth should be kept hidden by preventing records being kept.
Similar scenarios happened to a lesser extent in virtually every city in Britain year after year, decade after decade during most winters.
The deaths and sicknesses caused by exposure to such things in the long term for the whole of Britain can only be guessed at.
Thankyou for posting that link, Jaws. It's good to be reminded or made aware of the very real dangers of alternative power sources, such as coal. Not only was smog a health hazard, the coal miners themselves were constantly exposing themselves to danger. I'm sure there are quite a few of us here who can still remember the Aberfan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberfan) disaster in Wales, when a colliery waste tip collapsed in 1966. It slid down Merthyr Mountain, destroying houses and a farm, as well as taking the lives of over a hundred young school children. Only a handful were rescued from the rubble of their school. I was eleven at the time, and I can still remember the poignancy of the TV news reports and how sad it all was. The whole nation wept along with Aberfan - the unforeseen disaster struck a chord in the heart of everyone!
Cheers gleeber :)
A mixed reaction is what I expected in terms of feedback. And the piece was written because it is topical at the moment. But you have to remember this was Dounreay as I saw it (between the ages of 6-16), so I wouldn't get too het-up about it. Thanks for reading it, though, nonetheless.
Pepsi - an excellent article. You know that my father's opinions differed somewhat from your own but then that is one of the great things about humanity - difference of opinion. I am glad that you wrote your article and were successful with it. We should all remember to read all sides of the story and then we can compose our own enlightened judgement. :)
We should all remember to read all sides of the story and then we can compose our own enlightened judgement. :)
Its all very well having an opinion on Dounreay but when that opinion gets front page coverage and 2 inside pages in the Scotsman, peoples uninformed opinions are likely to be strengthened by someone elses prejudices.
Barrys article may well be well written and portray a personal opinion but it does nothing for the Caithness I know and love.
My Caithness was/is/stillcouldbe the centre for nuclear excellence. Nuclear technology is not going to go away overnight and if its not going to be developed in Caithness, it will happen somewhere else.
The people of caithness will need to waken up to the underpinning of its life blood by articles like Barrys.
I wouldnt want any nuclear industry to be sited in Caithness without proper consultation and, unlike our county fathers in the 50s, make sure all future angles will be covered with adeqaute international funding for the privelages of developing nuclear technology into the next century, in Caithness.
I cannot comment on the safety or otherwise of Dounreay as I do not have all the facts (has anyone?). All I know is that the risk of Dounreay on people's health compared to the risk of all the cigarettes we smoke, the obesity we inflict ourselves with, the alcohol we drink and all the related problems must surely surpass (discounting risk of explosion etc.,) anything that Dounreay can throw at us?
We even buy ourselves fast cars, kill ourselves and others along with maiming many more and just look at how dangerous electricity is and yet we have kiddies crawling on floors with sockets at "little hands" height. Along with the potential threat from our gas central heating (carbon monoxide poisoning) the various sprays that we breathe in plus the danger of certain elements in the rocks around us, (I can't remember the name) I think that at least Dounreay has given us a decent standard of living. And, ironically, a more safe, pleasant place to live and work and bring up our children; that's why people move here from further south or abroad!
As for the article in the Scotsman, the media have that art of highlighting anything that will sell the newspaper. I can assure you it is not their conscience that makes them do it.
Tubthumper
05-Nov-06, 13:19
Cheers gleeber :)
A mixed reaction is what I expected in terms of feedback. And the piece was written because it is topical at the moment. But you have to remember this was Dounreay as I saw it (between the ages of 6-16), so I wouldn't get too het-up about it. Thanks for reading it, though, nonetheless.
Hey Barry, I seem to remember you living and working here in Caithness quite happily far beyond the age of 16. Did you stop seeing 'it' after that age?
I say... "Journalism???"
Was Barry Gordon sponsored by Lorraine Mann's tribe for this piece of diabolical writing?! No wonder there is so much hysteria around the nuclear industry when such claptrap is front page news. I really would like to know who put him up to it and why print it now? What relevance does it have to anything current apart from trying to put a bad slant on nuclear power?
I don't think Lorraine Mann has been absolutely correct in everything she has stated, but I have no doubt that she has kept the Dounreay management on their toes over the past couple of decades. What would they have been doing out of the public spotlight???
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=18499
I would even go so far as to say that she should have been the recipient of Mr Blumfield's award if they had the guts to take it back from him.
The more I think about the people who condemn nuclear power the more I am stirred to defend it.
Sir (God forbid) Geoffery Minter has been complaining about his beach for years. He is a mouthpiece who aspires to the part he plays as the highland laird. He is also driven by the thought of compensation. His opinions on nuclear power are prejudiced by those individual characteristics. In my opinion that makes his opinions on nuclear power irrelevant.
Lorraine Mann in her battle against her nuclear demons condemns the whole of caithness to a nuclear Armageddon. She is not short of supporters. I applaud her for her persistant stance. She is an extremist though and as such her personal prejudices will be exposed in her rigid position against nuclear energy.
Barry Gordons article in the Scotsman gives a hint where the emotional stance against nuclear energy comes from. It comes from snippets of information picked up by 6 year old ears and translated in a meaningful way to create an unbalanced view of something very important to the future of mankind. I helped create the same negative vibes towards Dounreay when I used to call it the stinky ball. That sorta stuff has its effect on the underlying anti-ness of the antis :confused just as Barrys article may have prejudiced neutral observers forever.
The pro nuclears are confident the technology can be contained safely. Although Mr Minters beach is testimony that problems do occur with nuclear technology, that problem, like most of the problems with nuclear power, has been down to human error.
People who work with nuclear technology will need to be highly trained with enough fail safes in place to stop the most stupid of mistakes. It can be done!
I dont see any problem with nuclear power once human vulnerability has been harnessed.
The Pepsi Challenge
05-Nov-06, 18:17
Hey Barry, I seem to remember you living and working here in Caithness quite happily far beyond the age of 16. Did you stop seeing 'it' after that age?
I say... "Journalism???"
I left for Edinburgh at the age of 17. I returned to Thurso for 4 months around the end of '99/ beginning of 2000. Didn't ever stop seeing 'it' as you say, but 'it' certainly wasn't a part of my daily life.
I don't have a bit enough ego to call myself a journalist, blagger maybe. The feature article however, has clearly succeeded in, at least, getting people talking about the issues of nuclear waste.
The Pepsi Challenge
05-Nov-06, 18:19
As for the article in the Scotsman, the media have that art of highlighting anything that will sell the newspaper. I can assure you it is not their conscience that makes them do it.
For the record, I'd always thought about writing something about my time living close to Dounreay. When I heard that councils were being asked to volunteer to have nuclear waste dumped on their doorstep, I got in touch with my features editor. She certainly thought it was topical.
For the record, I'd always thought about writing something about my time living close to Dounreay. When I heard that councils were being asked to volunteer to have nuclear waste dumped on their doorstep, I got in touch with my features editor. She certainly thought it was topical.
I'll tell you what Barry. Theres not many people would have a forum like Scotlands national newspaper to present their views in such an unbalanced fashion. You took advantage of the feature editors need for sensationalism in a story, to sell the county of your birth down the river. You may well believe what you wrote, although i suspect you were more pleased just to knock Caithness.
Whether you believe it or not doesnt matter, the damage is done.
Its time that the knockers were confronted. The experts and the extremists and the blaggers have had their day.
I'll tell you what Barry. Theres not many people would have a forum like Scotlands national newspaper to present their views in such an unbalanced fashion. You took advantage of the feature editors need for sensationalism in a story, to sell the county of your birth down the river. You may well believe what you wrote, although i suspect you were more pleased just to knock Caithness.
Whether you believe it or not doesnt matter, the damage is done.
Its time that the knockers were confronted. The experts and the extremists and the blaggers have had their day.
Pepsi is not alone, fellow Gleeber, there are others of us who detest the very concept of Atomic Energy. The wages of a few don't count much when the furure of our children is at stake. Power to your pen Pepsi.
I hold the same emotional ties to my family and fellow Caithnessers as the best of you but I take an opposite view about nuclear technology.
I need to seperate the emotion from the fact.
I hold the same emotional ties to my family and fellow Caithnessers as the best of you but I take an opposite view about nuclear technology.
I need to seperate the emotion from the fact.
I go with you on this one Gleeber, without Dounreay Caithness would be still living in the dark ages, I agree Nuclear Power is not the perfect idea, but a lot better than burning our fossil fuels and everything that goes with it.
There is no substitute for being well informed on these issues. For example something like 70% of the electricity in France is generated by nuclear power.
(I hope I have these figures right - but it's a mighty quantity!)
Anyway, here is an indispensible article. I suggest all contributors to this thread read it.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19596
The Pepsi Challenge
06-Nov-06, 17:16
I'll tell you what Barry. Theres not many people would have a forum like Scotlands national newspaper to present their views in such an unbalanced fashion. You took advantage of the feature editors need for sensationalism in a story, to sell the county of your birth down the river. You may well believe what you wrote, although i suspect you were more pleased just to knock Caithness.
Whether you believe it or not doesnt matter, the damage is done.
Its time that the knockers were confronted. The experts and the extremists and the blaggers have had their day.
If it wasn't for Dounreay and the influx of Americans who joined up at the U.S. Base, I, too, would agree that Caithness wouldn't be the cosmopolitan, thriving (at one stage in its life anyway) town it was (is). However, if you wish to accuse me of selling my the county of my birth down the river, try telling it to my face. I'll be up in Caithness around Xmas time. You'll find me in one of the pubs preaching imminent doom. Cheers...
I'll tell you to your face no problem :)
I actually don't think you sold it down the river, but I do disagree with the tone, content and message of your article.........but hey it's your article. I just thought it was more of a political dialogue than a perspective.
I am still planning to get round to writing something myself.........it won't be on the front page of the Scotsman though:)
The Pepsi Challenge
06-Nov-06, 17:53
I ken a few 'zines from Govan that would publish your political standpoint, scotsboy.
Colin Manson
06-Nov-06, 18:12
I agree with scotsboy but I'm hardly unbiased since I've been working at Dounreay for 18 years. (not once having slept in a cupboard :lol: )
I do get annoyed when people publish bias reports which are technically incorrect. It would be nice for a change to see a well written article to educate the general public about the facts rather than playing their fears. [disgust]
I think the most surprising thing about nuclear power is the scale, everything is so much smaller than you'd think, waste included. These days the level of emissions/discharges have been greatly reduced, new means for minimising those are being planned and built into modern plants.
I think that it would be very interesting to see the figures for a modern reactor; I think that the fuel / power generated /waste generated ratio would look pretty good by any standard.
However, if you wish to accuse me of selling my the county of my birth down the river, try telling it to my face. I'll be up in Caithness around Xmas time. You'll find me in one of the pubs preaching imminent doom. Cheers...
I'm not sure whether that's a threat or an invitation. If it's a threat I'll ignore it. If it's an invitation, it doesnt give me much choice in the decision. I would rather you invited me to a meal. If it's the latter, how about an Indian?
You come onto Caithness.org a few days before your article is published, stir it up a little bit, then when the article is published you cry wolf.
I do understand your article was a personal opinion. Did you ever consider it may have been detrimental to the economy and social structure of Caithness? Just a little bit? It just perpetuates the perception that Caithness is some sort of nuclear hinterland.
Caithness is and could be the centre for international nuclear excellence.
The only way to combat the scaremongers is to challenge them. It's all very well for journalists and green musicians and glaikid landowners to condemn Caithness because of its nuclear connection.
There are hundreds, yes thousands of ordinary Caithnessians whose futures would be secured if the people of caithness were to become informed about nuclear technology and consider any option that will secure it's economic security.
Not at any cost though! Unlike the Scotsman article any decisions will need to be balanced, informed and unbiased.
The Pepsi Challenge
07-Nov-06, 16:03
I'm not sure whether that's a threat or an invitation. If it's a threat I'll ignore it. If it's an invitation, it doesnt give me much choice in the decision. I would rather you invited me to a meal. If it's the latter, how about an Indian?
You come onto Caithness.org a few days before your article is published, stir it up a little bit, then when the article is published you cry wolf.
I do understand your article was a personal opinion. Did you ever consider it may have been detrimental to the economy and social structure of Caithness? Just a little bit? It just perpetuates the perception that Caithness is some sort of nuclear hinterland.
Caithness is and could be the centre for international nuclear excellence.
The only way to combat the scaremongers is to challenge them. It's all very well for journalists and green musicians and glaikid landowners to condemn Caithness because of its nuclear connection.
There are hundreds, yes thousands of ordinary Caithnessians whose futures would be secured if the people of caithness were to become informed about nuclear technology and consider any option that will secure it's economic security.
Not at any cost though! Unlike the Scotsman article any decisions will need to be balanced, informed and unbiased.
.........Eh?!
buggyracer
07-Nov-06, 16:14
the same could be said on the opposite side of the fence gleeber, how much has it cost us?, in terms of tourism, local food produce, labour/workforce, all affected by dounray.
Many many questions have been asked as to the problems associated with dounray and most of them seem to be unanswered?
why build it up here if there was no risk? why not in the centre of london where there is a ready workforce? answer because no one really knew what to expect from it, not that they were really there to help us yokels out!
oh and by the way i hear another couple of particle were found at the weekend, more good news!?
i have never been employed by dounray (how many pro dounray contributors to this thread can say that) i am not actively against dounray, but i just cant help but think is it such a great thing as most people make out, im sure caithness would have flourished without it after all we are a resiliant bunch!
Family picnics of my youth invariably meant trips west to the beaches of Melvich and Strathy, and as we traveled west from Thurso we could see the Big Ball. Everyone’s Dad worked in the Big Ball, even as kids we knew there was no kudos associated with working anywhere else on the Dounreay site. There was plenty of room for our Dad’s, as the Big Ball was huge. As a child the closest I got to the Big Ball was when I accompanied my Dad to pick up his pay before we headed off on holiday. The car was parked outside the Dounreay security gate, I couldn’t understand why I wasn’t allowed in, but amused myself by watching the cows eating grass adjacent to the site, and the cars and people who came and went. On his return to the car my Dad presented me with a bag of Maltesers and a packet of fruit Spangles, which is my enduring memory of my first close encounter with the Big Ball. I suppose nowadays leaving a child in a car on his own would be deemed some form of heinous crime, let alone one parked outside a Nuclear Research facility.
The Big Ball was always there, it was there when the Salvation Army took a Double Decker full of kids to Sandside Beach for their annual picnic, although to be honest we didn’t pay much attention to it, maybe its shadow wasn’t cast to long and dark in those days. At that time my great Uncle did seasonal work at the salmon cobbles of Sandside, Melvich and Crosskirk, and invariably my grandfather would visit to see if there was any chance of a fish to be had, in those times the county was our Tescos as on the way back I would often be requested to nip over a wall to retrieve some field fresh vegetables, my granddad telling me that it was okay as he knew the farmer. It was years later that I discovered that a critical group for radiation exposure was salmon fishermen, with the critical path being radiation exposure to the hands from hauling potentially radioactive contaminated nets. It should be noted that my Uncle is still alive and in his 90s, although has recently succumbed to Alzheimer’s.
My primary school was Mount Pleasant; I was privileged to start in primary one the year it opened. Two new primary schools, a modern secondary school and a Technical college served the town well, and provided us with a huge advantage in terms of education. But the thing that helped us most in terms of education was the mix of people from around the UK who had come to live in Thurso, the Atomicers. At primary school I had not been exposed to many Atomicers. My stamping ground had been from Springpark across the Ellon Bridge to doon-e-toon and on up to the Glebe, which tended to be “locals”, sure I encountered some Atomicers on forays up the Mall and sometimes down the beach but not that many. There has been some Atomicers who had the audacity to raid my Granddad’s garden in Bayview Terrace for strawberries, he cursed them harshly, and then laughed when I pointed out that they were do no different than we were ourselves! High school brought me into close proximity with the Atomicers, as well as the country crowd bussed in from around the county – at first both were alien to me. Then we all merged into one and we worked, played, misbehaved and got belted together.
In my high school class I had accents from around the UK, but the poor guy who got the most stress was an American lad, whose father was stationed at Forss. It seems that our common bond of community fused us together and the only incomer we saw was the Yank, although in truth the majority of the class was incomers or the result of incomers infiltrating the local population.
Upon reaching my mid-teens and before the legal drinking age I did what the majority of others did and explored and experimented, Caithness had plenty to offer, but nowhere quite like the Viewfirth. The mix of people, the music, the atmosphere was fantastic.
When I left school I never went to work at Dounreay, instead I ventured far from Caithness and traveled around the World working for British Petroleum on oil tankers, but I took with me a fierce pride in my town of Thurso. Whilst at college in South Shields I encountered my first anti-nuclear activist – he was a lecturer who had marked me very harshly on a piece of work I put forward in my General Studies class. The subject of my work was Thurso, the place and its people. It concentrated heavily on the cosmopolitan make up of the population and the role of Dounreay in creating this. This guy (and I still remember your name Mr Melling) was scathing of nuclear power and all it stood for. I couldn’t understand at the time (and still don’t) what had driven him to be so critical of my work which was in no way pro-nuclear, it only alluded to the fact that the town benefited from the existence of Dounreay. Over the years I have since met many more of his ilk whose minds are closed and opinions superior, or so they think.
A good deal of my mates ended up in craft apprenticeships at Dounreay, very few of them still there today, they have moved on and other employers were keen to snap up people trained on what was regarded as the best apprenticeship available in the UK.
In 1982 I left the merchant navy with the intention of going to work offshore in the UK, I took a job at Dounreay over the winter, which lasted 18years. I finally got a chance to go inside the Big Ball, I worked all over the site and can say without fear of contradiction that I pretty much knew the place inside out.
What was great about working at Dounreay at that time is that everyone was positive, the place was buzzing. You had people who were doing work which was at the forefront of technology. We were actually leading the World, a change from today where we have to rely on the research, development and ingenuity of others. I recall after the UK government’s decision to abandon the Fast Reactor programme wandering through offices which were deserted, years of work being left in filing cabinets, you could actually sense the energy, expertise and commitment that had been there and then left to rot. Those that had worked with a sense of purpose were no faced with no challenge, nothing to build for, the downward spiral began. Administration, bureaucracy and ignorance fuelled the demise until only a faint glimmer of what had previously been a shining beacon of hope remained.
Now I should say that I had my share of run ins with authority whilst at Dounreay and was in fact sacked for partaking in a bar lunch that went horribly wrong. I was lucky to get my job back and learnt a salutary lesson.
I did a wee bit of Trade Union work at Dounreay; I used to go off and lobby at political conferences and regularly came across the anti-nuclear lobby. None of them cold ever seem to realize how patronizing and ignorant their arguments were, they did not realize that the majority of people who worked in the nuclear industry were ordinary, and not boffins. They did not realize that these people were aware of the hazards and could put the risks into perspective. They did not realize that all people wanted was a safe and secure future for themselves and their families – no something had to be missing, there needed to be more, they could not understand nor fathom that an ordinary guy could buy the nuclear argument. I laughed when watching the news last week, during an article on Climate Change an environmental campaigner urged all commentators and politicians to be quiet and not comment until they understood all the facts………oh the irony.
Dounreay and Caithness are now far behind me, but not forgotten. I owe everything I have to Dounreay, it brought my parents together, it employed my father for the majority of his working life, it employed me for 18 years, it provided me with training, experience and expertise to move onwards and upwards.
Unfortunately for Caithness the management and administration at Dounreay have never come to terms with moving from what was an experiment to some kind or reality, what is there now is a shadow of the past, it is dull, it is uninteresting and it is hollow……….apart from the Big Ball.
buggyracer
07-Nov-06, 18:25
great read that scotsboy! enjoyed it.
Fabulous post Scotsboy. Much of it sounds so very, very familiar. Except that I was one of those weirdos from the west side of town that Springparkers like yourself first encountered at high school. ;)
I've never really thought about the numbers before, but I guess most of my high-school class were incomers too. Having said that, I'm not entirely sure who was a "true" local and who wasn't. At some level it simply didn't matter.
I've never worked at Dounreay - I think I might have had the chance of a summer job at some stage, but I don't really remember...
j4bberw0ck
07-Nov-06, 23:39
I don't really remember...
Ah....... it's the ionising radiation, taking its toll......:lol:
Brilliant post, Scotsboy. What a well-written piece.
No one wants wind turbines, nuclear power, green taxes........ but everyone wants someone, somewhere, to do something about climate change - just so long as they don't have to change their own lives.
Dounreay nuclear technology is 50 years old. Chernobyl technology, ditto. France generates 37% of its electrical power from nuclear reactors, using mainly technology and power stations developed during the 1980's.
It's about time people got to grips with the idea that to combat climate change - assuming that it is caused by carbon dioxide emissions - nuclear power is the only technology that's there and ready - but the work and investment needs to start now.
j4bberw0ck
07-Nov-06, 23:43
i have never been employed by dounray (how many pro dounray contributors to this thread can say that) i am not actively against dounray, but i just cant help but think is it such a great thing as most people make out, im sure caithness would have flourished without it after all we are a resiliant bunch!
Do you by chance have a backside which has evolved naturally to make sitting on the fence painless? I hope it didn't evolve at the expense, say, of your ankles, or hopping off the fence at some point will be painful :lol:.
Scotsboy, I left Thursa long before the Beeg Ball was ever thought of, but in my teen years I watched it grow from afar, and your story impressed me, I as a true born tea in a bowla, who played at 'e Glebe as a young bairn and went to West Public school, I have fond memories that you have just re-awoken, many thanks, I think your article is more true, to me and my memories than the one that appeared in the Scotsman
Ah....... it's the ionising radiation, taking its toll......Aye, maybe, but it almost certainly won't have come from Dounreay. :D
France generates 37% of its electrical power from nuclear reactors, using mainly technology and power stations developed during the 1980's.37%?
Either you've transposed the 3 and the 7 or you have a source of information that I haven't previously encountered. I could believe 73%, but 37% seems a tad low. :confused:
France has 59 Nuclear Reactors which produce over 75% of their electricity. They produce more Electricity than they require and export the excess.
One of the Countries they export Electricity to is Britain via a Cross Channel Link.
i have never been employed by dounray (how many pro dounray contributors to this thread can say that)I have never been through the gates, let alone worked there.
Has anybody any idea how much radation the particles from the beach actually emit? Is it more or less than a household smoke detector?
The Pepsi Challenge
08-Nov-06, 03:36
Family picnics of my youth invariably meant trips west to the beaches of Melvich and Strathy, and as we traveled west from Thurso we could see the Big Ball. Everyone’s Dad worked in the Big Ball, even as kids we knew there was no kudos associated with working anywhere else on the Dounreay site. There was plenty of room for our Dad’s, as the Big Ball was huge. As a child the closest I got to the Big Ball was when I accompanied my Dad to pick up his pay before we headed off on holiday. The car was parked outside the Dounreay security gate, I couldn’t understand why I wasn’t allowed in, but amused myself by watching the cows eating grass adjacent to the site, and the cars and people who came and went. On his return to the car my Dad presented me with a bag of Maltesers and a packet of fruit Spangles, which is my enduring memory of my first close encounter with the Big Ball. I suppose nowadays leaving a child in a car on his own would be deemed some form of heinous crime, let alone one parked outside a Nuclear Research facility.
The Big Ball was always there, it was there when the Salvation Army took a Double Decker full of kids to Sandside Beach for their annual picnic, although to be honest we didn’t pay much attention to it, maybe its shadow wasn’t cast to long and dark in those days. At that time my great Uncle did seasonal work at the salmon cobbles of Sandside, Melvich and Crosskirk, and invariably my grandfather would visit to see if there was any chance of a fish to be had, in those times the county was our Tescos as on the way back I would often be requested to nip over a wall to retrieve some field fresh vegetables, my granddad telling me that it was okay as he knew the farmer. It was years later that I discovered that a critical group for radiation exposure was salmon fishermen, with the critical path being radiation exposure to the hands from hauling potentially radioactive contaminated nets. It should be noted that my Uncle is still alive and in his 90s, although has recently succumbed to Alzheimer’s.
My primary school was Mount Pleasant; I was privileged to start in primary one the year it opened. Two new primary schools, a modern secondary school and a Technical college served the town well, and provided us with a huge advantage in terms of education. But the thing that helped us most in terms of education was the mix of people from around the UK who had come to live in Thurso, the Atomicers. At primary school I had not been exposed to many Atomicers. My stamping ground had been from Springpark across the Ellon Bridge to doon-e-toon and on up to the Glebe, which tended to be “locals”, sure I encountered some Atomicers on forays up the Mall and sometimes down the beach but not that many. There has been some Atomicers who had the audacity to raid my Granddad’s garden in Bayview Terrace for strawberries, he cursed them harshly, and then laughed when I pointed out that they were do no different than we were ourselves! High school brought me into close proximity with the Atomicers, as well as the country crowd bussed in from around the county – at first both were alien to me. Then we all merged into one and we worked, played, misbehaved and got belted together.
In my high school class I had accents from around the UK, but the poor guy who got the most stress was an American lad, whose father was stationed at Forss. It seems that our common bond of community fused us together and the only incomer we saw was the Yank, although in truth the majority of the class was incomers or the result of incomers infiltrating the local population.
Upon reaching my mid-teens and before the legal drinking age I did what the majority of others did and explored and experimented, Caithness had plenty to offer, but nowhere quite like the Viewfirth. The mix of people, the music, the atmosphere was fantastic.
When I left school I never went to work at Dounreay, instead I ventured far from Caithness and traveled around the World working for British Petroleum on oil tankers, but I took with me a fierce pride in my town of Thurso. Whilst at college in South Shields I encountered my first anti-nuclear activist – he was a lecturer who had marked me very harshly on a piece of work I put forward in my General Studies class. The subject of my work was Thurso, the place and its people. It concentrated heavily on the cosmopolitan make up of the population and the role of Dounreay in creating this. This guy (and I still remember your name Mr Melling) was scathing of nuclear power and all it stood for. I couldn’t understand at the time (and still don’t) what had driven him to be so critical of my work which was in no way pro-nuclear, it only alluded to the fact that the town benefited from the existence of Dounreay. Over the years I have since met many more of his ilk whose minds are closed and opinions superior, or so they think.
A good deal of my mates ended up in craft apprenticeships at Dounreay, very few of them still there today, they have moved on and other employers were keen to snap up people trained on what was regarded as the best apprenticeship available in the UK.
In 1982 I left the merchant navy with the intention of going to work offshore in the UK, I took a job at Dounreay over the winter, which lasted 18years. I finally got a chance to go inside the Big Ball, I worked all over the site and can say without fear of contradiction that I pretty much knew the place inside out.
What was great about working at Dounreay at that time is that everyone was positive, the place was buzzing. You had people who were doing work which was at the forefront of technology. We were actually leading the World, a change from today where we have to rely on the research, development and ingenuity of others. I recall after the UK government’s decision to abandon the Fast Reactor programme wandering through offices which were deserted, years of work being left in filing cabinets, you could actually sense the energy, expertise and commitment that had been there and then left to rot. Those that had worked with a sense of purpose were no faced with no challenge, nothing to build for, the downward spiral began. Administration, bureaucracy and ignorance fuelled the demise until only a faint glimmer of what had previously been a shining beacon of hope remained.
Now I should say that I had my share of run ins with authority whilst at Dounreay and was in fact sacked for partaking in a bar lunch that went horribly wrong. I was lucky to get my job back and learnt a salutary lesson.
I did a wee bit of Trade Union work at Dounreay; I used to go off and lobby at political conferences and regularly came across the anti-nuclear lobby. None of them cold ever seem to realize how patronizing and ignorant their arguments were, they did not realize that the majority of people who worked in the nuclear industry were ordinary, and not boffins. They did not realize that these people were aware of the hazards and could put the risks into perspective. They did not realize that all people wanted was a safe and secure future for themselves and their families – no something had to be missing, there needed to be more, they could not understand nor fathom that an ordinary guy could buy the nuclear argument. I laughed when watching the news last week, during an article on Climate Change an environmental campaigner urged all commentators and politicians to be quiet and not comment until they understood all the facts………oh the irony.
Dounreay and Caithness are now far behind me, but not forgotten. I owe everything I have to Dounreay, it brought my parents together, it employed my father for the majority of his working life, it employed me for 18 years, it provided me with training, experience and expertise to move onwards and upwards.
Unfortunately for Caithness the management and administration at Dounreay have never come to terms with moving from what was an experiment to some kind or reality, what is there now is a shadow of the past, it is dull, it is uninteresting and it is hollow……….apart from the Big Ball.
Imitation... flattery... well done, scotsboy... a very well-written piece there.
Colin Manson
08-Nov-06, 04:01
The levels from the Sandside Particles can be found here (http://forms.ukaea.org.uk/dounreay/Sandside_latest.pdf)
Web search info about Smoke Detector
Americium-241 emits alpha particles and low energy gamma rays @ 60 keV, giving a dose at 1 metre of 0.0011 mSv/yr.
Cs 137 1GBq=103 micro Sv at 1 metre, rough average of the Sandside beach particles ~5e4 which equates 0.05 of a GBq
103x0.05= 5.15 Micro Sv or 0.00515 mSv/hr
(If my calc is wrong I'm sure the Doc will be able to correct me, more his game than mine :p)
That probably answers your question but there are a lot of variables when comparing the two, no shielding has been accounted for in the particle calculation.
Lots of reading here (http://www.ukaea.org.uk/sites/dounreay_part_faq.html#What_are_the_risks) about the risks.
Getting a CT scan would give me more cause for concern - Story here (http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q2866.html) (the do state at the bottom of the article - The Health Physics Society has also released a position statement that says in part "Below 10 rem (100 mSv) . . . risks of health effects are either too small to be observed or are non-existent.")
Scotsboy, that was indeed a brilliant post you wrote, and I'm glad you did so! My perspective on Dounreay and Thurso is more akin to yours than Barry's. I was born in 1955, the year that the Dounreay site was opened. My parents and I moved to Thurso from another part Scotland when I was two years old, and I lived there for the next 20 years or so. My Dad worked at the Big Ball, the Dounreay Fast Reactor, then PFR, the Prototype Fast Reactor. Yes, I was an "Atomicer", living on the west side of the river! For the first few years we lived on the top floor of one of the Brownhill Road flats. I started Primary 1 at the West Public School, a little before my 5th birthday, and attended Primary 2 at the Miller Academy. 1962 was an exciting year for me, as we moved into a brand new house that summer, at the far end of the Pennyland Estate, which was still being completed. And I started Primary 3 in the newly opened Pennyland School that autumn. Like Scotsboy, I found that one of the advantages of living in a place like Thurso, was the cosmopolitan mix of people there. We had neighbours from various parts of the UK, and at school that mix was was evident in my teachers and fellow pupils. I even had a classmate from Canada, who moved in across the street from me, and we soon became best friends. I was never a Scot who disliked the English - they were my friends and neighbours, and we all got along just fine!
By the time I started Thurso High School in 1967, it was hard to tell where I was from, as my accent showed both English and Scottish influences - it was an "Atomicer" accent, I suppose. Not a Caithness one, despite the fact that some of my fellow pupils at Pennyland were from the Glebe and Scrabster. At Thurso High School, I was reunited with some of my fellow pupils from the West Public and Miller Academy, and also had classmates from the country areas of Caithness for the first time. Yes, Thurso High School was another interesting place of learning, with yet another cosmopolitan mix of pupils and teachers!
Some of my first days beyond the Dounreay security gate were during my primary school years. At one time the children's Christmas parties were held at the Viewfirth club, then as our numbers increased, they were held in the very spacious Dounreay canteen. I remember feeling very excited being so near to the Big Ball where my dad worked!
I am also proud to say that I worked at Dounreay myself for four years, in a few different offices throughout the site, including the ones adjacent to the Big Ball, and yes, I have been inside it! Dounreay was indeed a buzzing, exciting place to work at in the 70s, and I never once came across any skivers like Barry's friend who pretended to be busy, napping in a cupboard when he felt like it! I survived numerous trips to and from Dounreay on the buses that Barry claims were "smeared with radioactive hotspots". I was employed at Dounreay in 1977, when the shaft explosion occurred, and was even living at Sandside at the time. But despite all this, I'm still alive and in good health at the ripe old age of 51, and expect to be around for a lot longer. Yep, growing up in the "Atomic City" wasn't such a bad thing after all! :cool:
buggyracer
08-Nov-06, 10:12
Do you by chance have a backside which has evolved naturally to make sitting on the fence painless? I hope it didn't evolve at the expense, say, of your ankles, or hopping off the fence at some point will be painful :lol:.
each to there own j4bberw0ck, havent the time nor the inclination for an internet arguement there a bit pointless, but given the choice id rather see the back of dounray?
On balance, I have to come down on the "pro-Dounreay" side, albeit tempered by my opinion that it has been anti-Dounreay campaigners that have been so influential in ensuring that regulations and safe practices have been implemented over the years.
Dounreay (and Rolls Royce) have contributed to the training and employment of much of Caithness and Orkney, with much of that throughput going on to other areas of the nuclear and oil industry. The UKAEA and Rolls Royce & Associates have lifted wages to a level whereby a great number of young couples (both in employment) can actually afford to buy a house. There are not many areas of the country that are still in that situation.
Should there be a future nuclear power station in the vicinity of the current site? I hope so - it is the obvious location for many reasons.
Should there be a nuclear waste depository in Caithness? Most definately not! That would be insulting.
Metalattakk
08-Nov-06, 13:12
Imitation... flattery... well done, scotsboy... a very well-written piece there.
When the imitation is better (i.e., informative, well researched, less sensational, more thought-provoking, more truthful, etc., etc., etc.) than the original, then exactly how flattering is that?
Gogglebox
08-Nov-06, 13:27
To be fair The Pepsi Challenge did say it was a kids eye view and what his impressions of it were when he was younger.
Granted it may not be all accurate but then its probably not totally inaccurate but it was his perception not a statement of fact.
Sometimes maybe because it is such a lifeline to our community and our families we maybe choose not to look at Dounreays faults and just keep looking at the money and employment it has brought our community.
Personally i think Dounreay, Vulcan and the US Navy establishments have brought added culture and possibly a more open mindedness to our outlook and thin its been great for the area. - Would we be in Caithness if it hadnt existed??
My mother tells me that such was my fascination for Dounreay I had been in primary school for one whole week and expected that i would be starting at Dounreay the following Monday - I had to wait for another 12 years
Its what a lot of us were brought up with and our lives and social circles were developed around it especially if our parents worked there . So no doubt we are super sensitive to criticism of it and defend it maybe a little more vigourously than maybe we would if it was a different type of industry
Perhaps the day is coming, maybe faster than we had hoped, when we can all look back with a tear in our eye and wax lyrically about tales of faux pas and hi-jinks and not condem a kids impression of what goes on behind the fences at Dounreay
j4bberw0ck
08-Nov-06, 14:44
Either you've transposed the 3 and the 7 or you have a source of information that I haven't previously encountered. I could believe 73%, but 37% seems a tad low. :confused:
Then (not for the first time) I apologise. I understood from an article I read during the last few months that it was 37 and they were working on increasing it dramatically to offset dependence on fossil fuel imports. I misread, or misremembered, or perhaps the ionising radiation got me, too....... :lol:
Anyways up, given the choice (if it does indeed come down to this choice) of putting an area at some managed higher risk of catastrophe by implementing a nuclear power station, versus the unmanaged / unmanageable risk of catastrophic climate change then I think nuclear power starts to sound remarkably attractive. Especially if you believe the scenario unfolding for the north of Scotland if you accept the theories around the North Atlantic Conveyor failing because of the diluting effect of ice caps melting.
There's no need to apologise j4bberw0ck. It's only a number. :)
Seriously, I think I know where your figure comes from. A quick Google suggests that nuclear-generated electricity provides circa 35% of France's total energy requirements, ie including fuel for transport, etc. The following paragraph is excerpted from here (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/franenv.html).
At 38%, petroleum still accounts for the largest fuel share of France's energy consumption, but just barely; nuclear power is right behind petroleum, accounting for 37% of the total. Natural gas (14%), hydroelectric (7%), and coal (4%) accounts for rest, as combined geothermal, solar, and wind power consumption makes up less than 1% of France's total energy consumption.
Other sites give a similar picture.
(If my calc is wrong I'm sure the Doc will be able to correct me, more his game than mine :p)Thanks for your kind offer, but I'll pass on this occasion. I don't know my Sieverts from my Becquerels (or my Rems from my Roentgens), so I'll pass the baton to Rheghead - I think he knows about these things.
The Pepsi Challenge
08-Nov-06, 15:35
When the imitation is better (i.e., informative, well researched, less sensational, more thought-provoking, more truthful, etc., etc., etc.) than the original, then exactly how flattering is that?
Metalattakk, check the Googlebox's comments, please. Seems you're oblivious to my intentions with the piece. Incedentally, what are you doing for a living these days, huh?
"To be fair The Pepsi Challenge did say it was a kids eye view and what his impressions of it were when he was younger.
Granted it may not be all accurate but then its probably not totally inaccurate but it was his perception not a statement of fact."
Metalattakk
08-Nov-06, 18:44
Incedentally, what are you doing for a living these days, huh?
What has that got to do with anything? Yet another example of the typical spin which is commonplace in the modern press. Do try and stick to the topic, eh?
Oh, and by the way...it's "incidentally", but then you're the journalist, aren't you? Why should we trust or believe a single word you say when you cannot do the basic research into the correct spelling of a word. But then maybe you thought you were right to spell it incorrectly, which would then suggest that your research techniques are lacking somewhat.
"To be fair The Pepsi Challenge did say it was a kids eye view and what his impressions of it were when he was younger. Granted it may not be all accurate but then its probably not totally inaccurate but it was his perception not a statement of fact."
A 'kid's eye view' perhaps, but surely written as an adult? With maturity comes a degree of objectivity, and I'm quite sure you knew what your objectives were when you wrote the piece: to create a stooshie.
Congratulations, you succeeded.
The Pepsi Challenge
08-Nov-06, 18:47
Oooh, get you, Dr. Grammar.
France obtains 75% of its power from nuclear reactors.
What is the alternative to nuclear energy? Fossil fuels? I know some folk advocate windmills but we'll still need nuclear.
j4bberw0ck
08-Nov-06, 22:32
A quick Google suggests that nuclear-generated electricity provides circa 35% of France's total energy requirements, ie including fuel for transport, etc. The following paragraph is excerpted from here (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/franenv.html).
Thank you for letting me off the hook so gently :lol: . I knew 37% was in there somewhere!
Incedentally, what are you doing for a living these days, huh?
Oooh, get you, Dr. Grammar.
Do I detect some punctured dignity here, and the possibility that PepsiChallenge feels he's dealt a dismissive blow (albeit misspelt) to Metalattakk? Coming so soon after what appeared to be an ungracious ("flattery / imitation") assault on Scotsboy, one wonders....... perhaps we should be told! :lol:
Reading Pepsi's version, it's certainly easy to imagine that the glow we see to the south at night (here in Orkney) isn't the flare at Flotta, it's Caithness - radiating gently in the wee small hours.....
The Pepsi Challenge
09-Nov-06, 00:49
No; to be honest, scotsboy's piece was really well written, and, most likely, heartfelt, too. He took the time neccessary to write it, and I enjoyed reading it. To pick on someone else's grammar, though - and am talking about peeps like Metalattakk (or however a 4th year pupil would spell it) - is, like... so 2002.
Ken any good Cinderella riffs, MK?
No; to be honest, scotsboy's piece was really well written, and, most likely, heartfelt, too. He took the time neccessary to write it, and I enjoyed reading it. To pick on someone else's grammar, though - and am talking about peeps like Metalattakk (or however a 4th year pupil would spell it) - is, like... so 2002.
Ken any good Cinderella riffs, MK?
Methinks a little sour grapes here TPC, your article has not gone down too well with the .Orgers and now your getting personal, shame on you, you as your profession states are hacks, accept the crits, you will get over it as will the Jambos [lol]
Gogglebox
09-Nov-06, 01:17
You do realise Pepsi challenge you will have to mind you Ps & Qs now!!
You will be hunted down and anihilated for a misplaced semi colon - lol
and professional journalist taunts will be thrown at every post you write!!
Whats interesting is there is more criticisim towards you in this thread than what ther was of the guilty party in the Saddam Hussein thread!!! lol!!
I see what they see, but i also see what you saw!!
Im getting dizzy on that seesaw!! !!
j4bberw0ck
09-Nov-06, 01:20
I see what they see, but i also see what you saw!!
Im getting dizzy on that seesaw!! !!
Let's not get completely carried away, now........ :roll:
Gogglebox
09-Nov-06, 01:26
Here Pepsi , Just a thought
Your not by any chance in a position to write an updated version of the story looking at the local area and what the perception of the local people is now - -what the hopes are for the locals during the rundown of Dounreay and what the long term hopes of the local community and where we will all be in 20/30 years time when Dounreay has run down
There is more vocal opposition to Dounreay than what there used to be but the locals are obviously considerable more vocal and loyal in their support
Also you could look at the aspect of the highly trained workforce that exists and may go to waste if it is not targetted in another major project
You may find the article writes itself if you utilise some of the sources that have been so vociferous in their attack on your previous article
Just a thought!!
It would be disingenuous to compare dose rates of sandside particles with that of smoke detectors as the mode of exposure is different. The real health risks involved would only arise if one of the particles was in close contact by swallowing or if one got picked up on the skin. Very unlikely, but if it did happen then there would be no '1 metre' distance to mitigate the dose rate so dose rates from Sandside particles would be significantly higher. However, the activity of a smoke alarm is probably much higher but the distance from its position on the living room ceiling to body is constant so the dose rate is reduced. If you were to swallow a smoke detector then please head to the loo immediately.:D
aye exactly regh ppl just dont realise the reality, I work in an LSA enviroenment every day whch is constantly monitored the laff is is a luminous watch produces more radiation than anywhere on site
Metalattakk
09-Nov-06, 02:28
No; to be honest, scotsboy's piece was really well written, and, most likely, heartfelt, too. He took the time neccessary to write it, and I enjoyed reading it. To pick on someone else's grammar, though - and am talking about peeps like Metalattakk (or however a 4th year pupil would spell it) - is, like... so 2002.
Again your spelling and grammar lets you down Pepsi. Do you think you could add some more commas in there, perhaps? One after each word, just to be sure?
As one who allegedly makes his living from his writing, you're showing none of the necessary attributes or skills. In fact, all you're showing is a puerile and immature attitude, which certainly does not help your cause. Are you going to call me names next, or go running to tell teacher? Here, have a tissue and dry your eyes.
Ken any good Cinderella riffs, MK?
Now, you of all people should know that there are no good Cinderella riffs. ;)
Thank you for letting me off the hook so gently :lol: . I knew 37% was in there somewhere!You're welcome. Could you explain it to rich now? He seems to have missed the point entirely. :roll:
My genuine connection to Caithness and certainly Dounreay is about as tenuous as anyone on the org. I am not claiming to be totally objective (although about as close as one can get), nor scientifically knowledgeable about the issues concerning a nuclear power station. What I represent is general JoAnne public when it comes to The Pepsi Challenge's article in the Scotsman. I didn't find it as derogatory toward Caithness as some of the people who have written in this thread. I don't doubt that in your eyes it was a bit of a put down. But I didn't see it that way so I would suspect that 99% of the newspaper's readership didn't see it that way either. Anyone who knows Caithness knows the charm of the county and one little article about a writer's schoolboy memories isn't going to change how they feel about the place.
I trust you will forgive me canuck if I suggest your post is a bit naive.
Pepsi knew exactly what he was doing and the reaction he would recieve when he penned his article.
Pepsi knew exactly what he was doing and the reaction he would recieve when he penned his article.Yes, of course he knew!
Pepsi may have incorrectly identified the source of the infamous particles and his analysis of the leukaemia statistics may be naive (at best) but the article itself isn't naive - and that's for sure.
Btw, the online article omitted the best bit. The paper version includes a photo of a charming wee boy holding a golf club and waving at the camera. :D
There are opposing views about Dounreay. Thats always evident here. I often feel that whenever we are discussing Dounreay on this site it appears ok for those who grew up with/ lived within sight of/ worked there etc to criticise but woe betide anyone who lives away doing so. Its almost like Dounreay is a member of the family - its ok for us to have a go but if anyone else does then we will close ranks and they will wish they hadnt bothered.
Thats fine though. Pepsi penned a piece for the press that illustrated his views as a child on Dounreay. Scotsboy copied his idea and wrote his own piece in answer to Pepsi and gave a different equally valid viewpoint. I have to say that comments on spelling or grammar are just silly wee jibes and should be treated as such.
There is no doubt in my mind that we have to have nuclear power to have any chance of having any power at all in the future. In addition to this i believe that Dounreay is vital to the economy of Caithness and therefore any chance to examine whether an enhanced role for Dounreay is possible would make sound sense for Caithness.
Risks are not to be ignored but they shoudl not be sensationalised either. I dont know enough about the risks to comment here but they must be able to be openly discussed if Dounreay is to grow and develop.
I trust you will forgive me canuck if I suggest your post is a bit naive.
Pepsi knew exactly what he was doing and the reaction he would recieve when he penned his article.
Yuk, naive is that insipid shade of chartreuse that looks so awful on me. But if I was accidently wearing it today, then so be it. gleeber I shall try to be more careful in the future.
The Pepsi Challenge
09-Nov-06, 17:03
Methinks a little sour grapes here TPC, your article has not gone down too well with the .Orgers and now your getting personal, shame on you, you as your profession states are hacks, accept the crits, you will get over it as will the Jambos [lol]
It's cool. No offence taken.
The Pepsi Challenge
09-Nov-06, 17:05
You do realise Pepsi challenge you will have to mind you Ps & Qs now!!
You will be hunted down and anihilated for a misplaced semi colon - lol
and professional journalist taunts will be thrown at every post you write!!
Whats interesting is there is more criticisim towards you in this thread than what ther was of the guilty party in the Saddam Hussein thread!!! lol!!
I see what they see, but i also see what you saw!!
Im getting dizzy on that seesaw!! !!
This is true. After all, I am evil incarnate.
There are opposing views about Dounreay. Thats always evident here. I often feel that whenever we are discussing Dounreay on this site it appears ok for those who grew up with/ lived within sight of/ worked there etc to criticise but woe betide anyone who lives away doing so. Its almost like Dounreay is a member of the family - its ok for us to have a go but if anyone else does then we will close ranks and they will wish they hadnt bothered.
Squidge, Pepsi *did* grow up with Dounreay, and had family members who worked there. Yes, he left Thurso as a young adult, but still goes back to visit on a regular basis.
Thats fine though. Pepsi
penned a piece for the press that illustrated his views as a child on Dounreay. Scotsboy copied his idea and wrote his own piece in answer to Pepsi and gave a different equally valid viewpoint. I have to say that comments on spelling or grammar are just silly wee jibes and should be treated as such.
Yes, Pepsi's piece for the press did illustrate his view as a child, with a good dose of adult journalistic spin thrown in!
There is no doubt in my mind that we have to have nuclear power to have any chance of having any power at all in the future. In addition to this i believe that Dounreay is vital to the economy of Caithness and therefore any chance to examine whether an enhanced role for Dounreay is possible would make sound sense for Caithness.
Risks are not to be ignored but they shoudl not be sensationalised either. I dont know enough about the risks to comment here but they must be able to be openly discussed if Dounreay is to grow and develop.
I agree. Nuclear power is the way to go. If France can do it, then so can we! And Dounreay is most definitely vital to the economy of Caithness -I can't argue with that!
Bobinovich
09-Nov-06, 20:20
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if turbine farms can be built up here and the energy generated transported back to the grid, then why not do the same with a nuclear power plant?
I'm certain that the vast majority of the people in this area would be receptive to the idea, and it would inject some much needed vitality back into the area - even if it was mostly during the build stage.
In doing so it may well also encourage other businesses into the area, thereby keeping some of the younger and/or technically minded population here too.
Lord knows, with the decommissioning work timescale reducing as it is, we need something locally and it's needs to be soon.
Tubthumper
10-Nov-06, 00:00
Interesting thread. I don't mind nuclear power. I don't mind renewable power. I like the idea of being able to watch the telly and boil the kettle at will, but I do use energy-saving lightbulbs.
I also like reasoned debate, and I sure as hell like the paper I've read since I was a bairn to carry some decent journalism, eg clear terms of reference & intent, decent research, thorough editing and a degree of selectivity, objectivity. That article lacked most of the above. It wasn't just a youngster's POV, it was a calculated attempt to make a coin.
But where I have difficulty is the use of the term 'journalist' in this sense; can I query what qualification (and I don't mean academic ones) young TPC has? As far as I can see his previous contributions to the good old Scotsman have been reviews of obscure bands.
That being the case let's return to TPC's time in Thurso. I remember the loon leaving the burg, distressed not at his impending evaporation as a result of exposure to radiomactivity frae Doomray, but because his music taste, personal style & idiom went unappreciated in Thurso. His band couldnae get a gig cos naebody liked 'is choons. Embra was a far better option, the big city...
So the music career didnae work oot? Bit o' freelance journalism, blag yer way intae a few gigs, make a pound frae some cheap reviews? Fine mate.
But don't forget where and who you came from, and next time you feel like selling out and making all of us look like ignorant country hicks...
Your article was equivalent to your band turning its hand to playing "Summer of '69" and other dad-rock standards at the old Weigh Inn in order to make a buck.
Tubthumper
10-Nov-06, 00:32
I grew up near Dounreay. I did not know what is was so I did not worry. Then one day I found out about death and I did not like it. And I found out about Dounreay and I did not like it neither because it was scarey and I don't understand it. My dad and my Uncle worked there but they was OK. Then someone died, it must have been because of Dounreay, so I don't like it even more. And my friend told me, he said it was a place where lazy people went. I went in a band because I played the guitar. Then they said they was shutting down the Dounreay so I thought I might take a job, cos they always has jobs for people there. But my mate who knows everything and I trust a lot, he told me a bloke in the pub told him that the man that cleaned the radio suits died from the cancer so I did not like it even more and I did not take a job at Dounreay. And then I went to Embra to be a pop star cos they like weird music there and I never thought about Dounreay. Then I was skint cos the Embra people don't like my music neither, and I was working in a Taco bar what was hard and you couldn't sleep in a cupboard and I needed money so I wrote about bands, then I heard they was going to put the radiomactivity in a hole at the Dounreay so I thought "thats not right, I hate it and I am scared of it and I don't understand it and I will get pounds because that's where I never worked." So I did. And I don't think they should put the bad stuff in a hole at Dounreay because all them what works there are silly. And i think it is OK because i know about it because I lived near there even though now I live here in Embra and I am a journalist.
Barry, aged 29 (journalist)
Tubthumper
10-Nov-06, 00:50
Anybody think I might get commissioned to do a Dounreay feature by the Scotsman? Or has it already been covered?
Then someone died, it must have been because of Dounreay, so I don't like it even more.
I honestly do not like that part of your post at all, it is sickening to anyone who has watched any loved one die so slowly, I agree we cannot say it is definately Dounreay that caused the Leukaemia cluster here or the many other cancer deaths and we cannot jump to conclusions but to post so flippantly about such a torturous thing just is NOT funny.
Tubthumper
10-Nov-06, 15:27
OK Sorry about that part. However my intent was not to be flippant about death, please believe me I sympathise fully. I've watched a family member die slowly and it is in no way anything to be lighthearted about.
Rather I intended to highlight the way that the Scotsman article implied (through the eyes of a 29 year old trying to be a 14 year old, based on poor research, hearsay and old news) that Dounreay is the cause of all things bad, that Thurso was and remains a pit of despair and that Dounreay staff (past & present) were unfeeling, unthinking and uncaring.
Sorry for any distress
The Pepsi Challenge
10-Nov-06, 17:17
Interesting thread. I don't mind nuclear power. I don't mind renewable power. I like the idea of being able to watch the telly and boil the kettle at will, but I do use energy-saving lightbulbs.
I also like reasoned debate, and I sure as hell like the paper I've read since I was a bairn to carry some decent journalism, eg clear terms of reference & intent, decent research, thorough editing and a degree of selectivity, objectivity. That article lacked most of the above. It wasn't just a youngster's POV, it was a calculated attempt to make a coin.
But where I have difficulty is the use of the term 'journalist' in this sense; can I query what qualification (and I don't mean academic ones) young TPC has? As far as I can see his previous contributions to the good old Scotsman have been reviews of obscure bands.
That being the case let's return to TPC's time in Thurso. I remember the loon leaving the burg, distressed not at his impending evaporation as a result of exposure to radiomactivity frae Doomray, but because his music taste, personal style & idiom went unappreciated in Thurso. His band couldnae get a gig cos naebody liked 'is choons. Embra was a far better option, the big city...
So the music career didnae work oot? Bit o' freelance journalism, blag yer way intae a few gigs, make a pound frae some cheap reviews? Fine mate.
But don't forget where and who you came from, and next time you feel like selling out and making all of us look like ignorant country hicks...
Your article was equivalent to your band turning its hand to playing "Summer of '69" and other dad-rock standards at the old Weigh Inn in order to make a buck.
Tubthumber, I appreciate your feelings on the piece, but your assumptions about my life - and my life's choices - are off the mark.
Firstly, journalism is my bread and butter, so of course, I earn money from what I write. That much is true. I'd always wanted to write a piece about growing up next to Dounreay, so when news about the Government asking Councils to volunteer to store nuclear waste came about, I approached my editor about it. My piece was topical and it was commissioned. Sorry. I have a good working relationship with the paper so chose them over other magazines that offered me a lot more 'coin', as you say, to go with them.
For your information, I write for a lot of newspapers and magazines, and not just "obscure bands" in The Scotsman. National newspapers rarely cover unknown acts. However, if you'd like to see some of the many feature articles I've written for The Scotsman, The Herald or anyone else, send me a PM and I'll forward some on for you... should you wish to read them, that is. Oh, and I also write books, too. If you're looking to get someone a Christmas gift this year, I can highly recommend one to you. No?
And by the way, I left Thurso purely because (at the time I departed) it was a cultural Chernobyl. There wasn't much opportunity for someone my age there, so I moved away... like many of my other friends. The music career is going fine, too. Everyone measures success differently, and I've been lucky to play great venues, supporting some amazing artists. I can send you my musical CV if you like, Tubby?
Finally, I'd never sell out my county. I stick by what I wrote: that is how I saw it. I have my sources, they were checked, and I have no problem with anything. Am constantly selling the area to new friends and colleagues. I've managed, in the last ten years, to persuade films groups, bands, and reporters alike to head for Caithness. They all said it was a worthwhile trip. This year I told one of my colleagues about the O' Neill surfing competition. A keen surfer himself, he took my word for it, and ventured north and wrote a good piece about it for a national newspaper. Other journalists I know will be heading up again next year, should another high-profile competiton come about. I head north as often as possible, and have taken many friends - from as far and wide as America, Switzerland and Germany - there, too. They liked the place so much, they've often returned themselves.
And what's this? The Weigh Inn are booking bands again? I better get my first, real six-string out again. Cheers for the heads up.
it was a cultural Chernobyl.
Care to expand on that? Simply becuase I find the metaphor (is it a metaphor??) confusing.
The Pepsi Challenge
10-Nov-06, 17:51
Nah; not in the mood for justifying my every comment just now. Maybe later.
Not asking you to justify the comment - just what you were meaning. Do you do you mean Chernobyl in terms of "disaster", "environmentally" or what?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if turbine farms can be built up here and the energy generated transported back to the grid, then why not do the same with a nuclear power plant?
I'm certain that the vast majority of the people in this area would be receptive to the idea, and it would inject some much needed vitality back into the area - even if it was mostly during the build stage.
In doing so it may well also encourage other businesses into the area, thereby keeping some of the younger and/or technically minded population here too.
Lord knows, with the decommissioning work timescale reducing as it is, we need something locally and it's needs to be soon.
I agree totally, but there are people that will argue against nuclear power no matter what, there are those that will argue against nuclear power in Caithness & sutherland and I can understand their stance on it......................(without agreeing)
What I don't understand is the resistance to wind turbines! I've said it before....... it is the only power source that we (as a generation) can put up with, that if our successors don't want it............ they can remove it without dealing with a legacy.
Bobinovich
10-Nov-06, 22:26
My main problems with turbine farms are...
1. Spoiling vast swathes of our beautiful landscapes. Yes I know a nuclear generating station (along with all it's ancillary requirements) also ruins the landscape to a certain degree, but when you compare the area which would need to be covered in turbines to generate the same electricity as a decent nuclear station then it makes the latter much more acceptable.
2. Their inefficiency - they can't run at lower or higher wind speeds which, I believe, account for approx. 1/3 of the time. This means they still require the backup of a conventional power generating station - i.e. it would need to be fired up and ready to cut in as soon as the wind drops, thus not really making them a viable alternative to any of the current plants.
3. Yes they can be decommissioned relatively easily, but I very much doubt that the tonnes of reinforced concrete they stand upon will not be removed and the holes filled with something more natural.
I reckon a rapid large-scale building programme similar to the French is required to ensure that our ever-increasing power requirements are taken care of.
For those anti-nuclear Orgers amongst you please feel free to give us a REAL alternative which is ready to roll (not pie-in-the-sky ideas) and will provide long-term energy at the required level.
Gogglebox
11-Nov-06, 08:49
Care to expand on that? Simply becuase I find the metaphor (is it a metaphor??) confusing.
Not wanting to be presumptious but i would say this cultural Chernobyl is what folk in there teens and twenties and probably older have been saying for generations - - -
There was nowt to do!
Apparently being a Boy Racer and driving round and round and round the street is not the limit of some folks entertainment threshold!!! lol Thankfully!!
Since the Chernobyl disaster, the exclusion area surrounding the reactor has become almost a national park for biological diversity for Russia.
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