View Full Version : Independence (again) Poll!
So there we have it:
"Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"
Well?
I doubt this question would be allowed in an audited survey. Probably should be a statement; Scotland should be an independent country. Do you agree or do you disagree.
or Scotland should leave the United Kingdom. do you agree...etc.
Well, we got a question. It just needs to be asked and asked until it produces the desired outcome (just registering my 87th sock puppet account to vote with).
"Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"
Agree with whom? Mr Salmond, the SNP, all parties in Scotland, the people of Scotland, Scots worldwide, or anyone else?
Nice try. Should have dropped the mask and asked -
"Scotland really very much deserves to be an utterly totally independent country, and any Scot who disagrees is a traitor. You got a problem with that?"
or
"Right-minded people think that best practice is best served by providing Scotland with a separatist and divergent agenda from the rest of the failed Union. Yes or maybe?"
Or, after the fuss has all gone away, and it's business as usual, the REAL question -
"Do you want fries with that?"
"Do you want fries with that?"
No thanks, but I will have some chips.
DeHaviLand
25-Jan-12, 19:10
No thanks, but I will have some chips.
Aye, one off each shoulder please.
DeHaviLand
25-Jan-12, 20:36
Rule brittania!!!
Your " British " education has failed you. In an Independent Scotland, you would at least be able to spell!;)
Your " British " education has failed you. In an Independent Scotland, you would at least be able to spell!;)
Providing the oil continues to flow, allegedly.
Interestingly, so far the margin between the options is similar to ducati's poll (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?166846-Scots-Independence-Poll/page3) a few days ago. However the results are reversed!
Maybe it is all in the question!!
Providing the oil continues to flow, allegedly.
Interestingly, so far the margin between the options is similar to ducati's poll (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?166846-Scots-Independence-Poll/page3) a few days ago. However the results are reversed!
Maybe it is all in the question!!
Give it time. The fact is (I think) that there are no (or very few) floating voters on this issue. In two years time it will be the same. No one will be swayed by the opposition. So lets face it, at least half the voters don't want independence.
So where does that leave us?
Providing the oil continues to flow, allegedly.
or providing the wind continues to blow?
As an Englishman living in England - my attitude is simple - If the SCOTS want to be independent, then let them get on with it, sooner rather than later, and the very best of luck to them.
Let it be FULL independence, and let us get on with sorting out Englands problems. I feel sure your First Minister will sort it.
DeHaviLand
25-Jan-12, 22:19
Providing the oil continues to flow, allegedly.
Interestingly, so far the margin between the options is similar to ducati's poll (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?166846-Scots-Independence-Poll/page3) a few days ago. However the results are reversed!
Maybe it is all in the question!!
In Ducati's poll, the Independence vote was out in front until a late surge of Unionists arrived, who were obvioulsy just bussed in to deny what would have been a famous victory!
whitechina
25-Jan-12, 22:31
In Ducati's poll, the Independence vote was out in front until a late surge of Unionists arrived, who were obvioulsy just bussed in to deny what would have been a famous victory!
A late surge of Unionists?? How did you work that out?? Usually these polls are hijacked by the Salmondistas!! :lol:
And anyway these polls are pretty pointless.The only one that will matter is the one we have in 2014.
And anyway these polls are pretty pointless.Maybe, but they're good for starting a row!
DeHaviLand
25-Jan-12, 22:38
A late surge of Unionists?? How did you work that out?? Usually these polls are hijacked by the Salmondistas!! :lol:
And anyway these polls are pretty pointless.The only one that will matter is the one we have in 2014.
What? Pointless? No way. This is the real vote. 2014 is a red-herring. We'll be Independent by lunchtime tomorrow!
What? Pointless? No way. This is the real vote. 2014 is a red-herring. We'll be Independent by lunchtime tomorrow!
Oh Oh! better fire up the ole Routemaster :lol:
Your " British " education has failed you. In an Independent Scotland, you would at least be able to spell!;)
Looks like the spelling police have arrived!
Perhaps the grammar police may need to have a look around also.
Nearly 500 views but only 60 votes, is this a sign of the possible turnout???
Nearly 500 views but only 60 votes, is this a sign of the possible turnout???
A forum views counter usually counts the same user repeatedly looking at the post and indexing bots used by search engines.
Oh! So it's just me and a few web bots then!!
I see so far 70 Orgers have marked their preference, I also note there's 6,708 Orgers with 1,907 active - is this down to apathy generally?
(PS I've voted)
Ooh, neck and neck just now with 74 votes, it could go either way!!
Hmmmmm...... I've not voted yet, should I make a casting vote and then close the poll?? :evil
sorghaghtanibeki
26-Jan-12, 23:50
Ooh, neck and neck just now with 74 votes, it could go either way!!
Hmmmmm...... I've not voted yet, should I make a casting vote and then close the poll?? :evil
please cease Phil Mrs Beks must vote!
changilass
27-Jan-12, 00:05
I see so far 70 Orgers have marked their preference, I also note there's 6,708 Orgers with 1,907 active - is this down to apathy generally?
(PS I've voted)
Not apathy, just not got enough information yet to make an informed decision.
When I get the answers to all the questions this has thrown up, then I will be able to decide. If I can't find the answers I am looking for then I would have to vote NO.
If I can't find the answers I am looking for then I would have to vote NO.No leap of faith then?
changilass
27-Jan-12, 00:30
Would you jump off a cliff without checking your safety harness first?
Depends what's at the bottom of the cliff.
changilass
27-Jan-12, 01:36
Thanks for making my point for me - I need more info afore I take the leap.
Well, it depends on where your looking. Your looking back at yer harness, I'm looking forward at what's over t'cliff.
(methinks there ain't bin' many unindependence's (voluntarily speaking))
Even Chance
27-Jan-12, 09:13
So is this poll counting only indigenous Scots living in Scotland then???? (stand back and wait for the backlash...............lol)
So is this poll counting only indigenous Scots living in Scotland then???? (stand back and wait for the backlash...............lol)
Thats a good point, who exactly will get the option to vote on this matter, when it gets to the poll booths.
Residents, regardless of origin. If yer live 'ere yer vote.
(no 3 sets of grandparents in the cemetery rule like us incomers)
Thats a good point, who exactly will get the option to vote on this matter, when it gets to the poll booths.
Alex Salmond says that anyone who has decided to come to Scotland to make it their home ie live and work here is entitled to vote. He rule out 'ex-pat' eligibility to vote.
So is this poll counting only indigenous Scots living in Scotland then???? (stand back and wait for the backlash...............lol)
Is that your opinion? - it certainly ain't the SNP's.
People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948
People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577 (that's not counting the 41, 161 Scots born living in Wales/N.I.)
'nuff said?
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf
Alex Salmond says that anyone who has decided to come to Scotland to make it their home ie live and work here is entitled to vote. He rule out 'ex-pat' eligibility to vote.
So if you commute to London to work you will be ineligible then?
What about folks that work abroad for extended periods i.e oil workers and servicemen?
I find it strange how we will have all these Eastern Europeans and others that have migrated to the UK for work will be entitled to vote on the future of Scotland.
I note he is also campaigning to give the right to vote on the referendum to 16 year olds.
It all seems a bit like Salmond is shifting the goalposts to give himself the best chance of winning possible.
So if you commute to London to work you will be ineligible then?
What about folks that work abroad for extended periods i.e oil workers and servicemen?
I find it strange how we will have all these Eastern Europeans and others that have migrated to the UK for work will be entitled to vote on the future of Scotland.
I note he is also campaigning to give the right to vote on the referendum to 16 year olds.
It all seems a bit like Salmond is shifting the goalposts to give himself the best chance of winning possible.
Are you saying that 16-17 year olds and Eastern Europeans are more likely to vote for independence and expat Scots living in England are less likely to vote for it? If so, on what evidence?
tonkatojo
27-Jan-12, 11:35
So is this poll counting only indigenous Scots living in Scotland then???? (stand back and wait for the backlash...............lol)
I think the SNP would be happy if all that are eligible to play for the National football teams (male/female) should be able to vote.
Are you saying that 16-17 year olds and Eastern Europeans are more likely to vote for independence and expat Scots living in England are less likely to vote for it? If so, on what evidence?
Ecks seems to think that 16-17 year olds are more pro independance, the national voting age is 18 why should it be changed at this moment in time?
Why should evrey nationality under the sun get a say in Scotlands future just because they have moved here as their is no work in their own countries, I dont know if they are pro or anti independance. I am against them having a say at all.
You said earlier that you had to live and work in Scotland to be eligible, I know many, many folk who have homes here (Scotland) but work overseas for extended periods, and it seems they will be excluded because of this.
Why can the current rules for UK voting not be used? I you are registered on the electroal roll for a Scottish constituency then you have a vote, if not you dont. simple.
All this changing of rules stinks to me and only secures my NO vote as being the correct vote.
Ecks seems to think that 16-17 year olds are more pro independance, the national voting age is 18 why should it be changed at this moment in time?
I'll ask again, where is your evidence that Salmond thinks that 16-17 year olds are more likely to vote for independence?
So if you commute to London to work you will be ineligible then?
What about folks that work abroad for extended periods i.e oil workers and servicemen?
I find it strange how we will have all these Eastern Europeans and others that have migrated to the UK for work will be entitled to vote on the future of Scotland.
I note he is also campaigning to give the right to vote on the referendum to 16 year olds.
It all seems a bit like Salmond is shifting the goalposts to give himself the best chance of winning possible.
A valid point - and this is why this referendum is going to be bogged down with difficulties. There are a huge number of variables that can form the basis for a legitimate argument and whichever way the referendum goes someone somewhere will cry 'foul'.
Servicemen have for a long time been able to join the electoral register and appoint a proxy to vote for them. We don't know yet if the same arrangements are going to apply for the referendum.
A young man yesterday made the point on TV. He lives and works in London because that's where his employers sent him. But he is proud to be Scottish and wants the right to have his say. It could be argued that he has more right to vote than an Eastern European who has just arrived in Scotland and might return to their home country at some point in the future.
I don't know what the answer is, I can only see a never ending dispute as people argue these points before, during and long after this referendum.
I'll ask again, where is your evidence that Salmond thinks that 16-17 year olds are more likely to vote for independence?
I think it was a statement on newsnight, I am quoting if my memory serves me correct.
Unfortunately I do not have the evidence to hand and I am willing to retract the statement if untrue.
I will ask again, why the need for all the "game changers" WRT voting rights?
I will ask again, why the need for all the "game changers" WRT voting rights?
Reducing the voting age for elections to 16 has been Labour party policy ever since 2007, so I think it is a bit rich for the major opposition party in Scotland to start objecting to 16 year olds from voting on their future.
I'll ask again, where is your evidence that Salmond thinks that 16-17 year olds are more likely to vote for independence?
Yes but - no but - anyone can counter your point by arguing where is your evidence that 16-17 year olds have enough life experience be able to make an informed decision? Most 16-17 year olds are not yet in work or pay taxes, most don't own a home. It could be argued that their view of the world and that of Scotland in particular is naive.
My point is - here is just another problematic arguement that will haunt the result whichever way it goes.
And correct me if I am wrong but Eastern Europeans or any other resident in Scotland was eligible to vote in the last Scottish Election, so is them voting really a game changer???
Reducing the voting age for elections to 16 has been Labour party policy ever since 2007, so I think it is a bit rich for the major opposition party in Scotland to start objecting to 16 year olds from voting on their future.
Ok so this is a long term policy of the SNP.
I think they are eligible for local elections and european elections but not general elections.
I would class the indepandance of Scotland being every bit as important as a general election if not more so.
So for me yes it is a massive "game changer"
Also the expatriate exclusion is a "big game changer"
Nick Noble
27-Jan-12, 12:18
As there seems to be some interest in what exactly Alex Salmond wants to do regarding the franchise for the referendum I thought it might be helpful to see what he said so here in his own words:
One area where we do agree with the UK Government is on the geographical basis of the franchise. The people who live and work in Scotland are best placed to decide its future. Our proposal is therefore that eligibility to vote in the referendum should reflect the internationally accepted principle that the franchise for constitutional referendums should be determined by residency. That is the approach for Scottish Parliament elections and for the 1997 referendum on devolution.
And the one area where we propose to extend the franchise relates to young people. This government, and I should say leading figures in the opposition too, have been consistent in our commitment to extending the franchise in all elections to 16 and 17 year olds. It is right that our young people should have the chance to play their part in decisions about their community and their country. Where we have been able to include 16 and 17 year olds in elections which are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, we have done so.
If a 16 year old in Scotland can register to join the army, get married and pay taxes – surely he or she should be able to have a say in this country’s constitutional future? In our consultation today we are, therefore, seeking views on our proposal to extend the right to vote in this referendum to 16 and 17 year olds who are eligible to be included on the electoral register.
http://www.snp.org/blog/post/2012/jan/your-scotland-your-referendum
My only comment on the above would be that I don't recall any elections in which 16 and 17 year olds have been given the vote in Scotland. I am not against the idea of 16 and 17 year old voters, but would want to see the law changed to permit young people of that age to vote in all Scottish elections, not just a single cherry picked occassion. More info here http://www.votesat16.org.uk/
DeHaviLand
27-Jan-12, 12:34
The rules for voting in the referendum will be exactly the same as they are for voting in any election. ie, if you are on the electoral register for the area in which the vote is to be held you will be eligible to vote. I really dont see why people are getting their knickers in a twist about it. Some people on here are showing a surprising lack of knowledge of the electoral process.
As for the rights of 16 and 17 year olds to vote, both Lib Dem and Labour supported this cause prior to the AV vote last year. Surprisingly, they're backing off now. Must be great to have such flexible principles!
Even Chance
27-Jan-12, 12:48
Is that your opinion? - it certainly ain't the SNP's.
People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948
People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577 (that's not counting the 41, 161 Scots born living in Wales/N.I.)
'nuff said?
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf
I never said it was the SNP's opinion, or mine for that matter. Certainly sparked a fine debate tho eh???
Is that your opinion? - it certainly ain't the SNP's.
People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948
People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577 (that's not counting the 41, 161 Scots born living in Wales/N.I.)
'nuff said?
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf
How do they know? I've never been officially asked if I was born in Scotland or England.
How do they know? I've never been officially asked if I was born in Scotland or England.So yer Welsh then, by process of elimination.
How do they know? I've never been officially asked if I was born in Scotland or England.
Contact here: http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/contacts/index.html
Contact here: http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/contacts/index.html
I have a rule about the grubbiement; if they don't bother me, I don't bother them.:Razz
For me a big question, will Scotland ultimately join the Euro? If the answer is no then I will be voting No. If the answer is yes, then I will be voting NO NO NO! You numpties, what are you playing at?
I think scotland england wales and ireland are stronger together as one and i dont no what the big deal is in going independent with all things going on with the econemy and what not people in the uk live like millionaires compared to other countrys like iraq iran africa and so on all scotland needs is we bit more powers in the running of the country thats all.
For me a big question, will Scotland ultimately join the Euro? If the answer is no then I will be voting No. If the answer is yes, then I will be voting NO NO NO! You numpties, what are you playing at?
With it being such a vibrant growing economy should we not adopt the Chinese Yuan?
oldmarine
28-Jan-12, 00:56
I doubt this question would be allowed in an audited survey. Probably should be a statement; Scotland should be an independent country. Do you agree or do you disagree.
or Scotland should leave the United Kingdom. do you agree...etc.
If you should have a war conflict, i.e., WW2, wouldn't it be better to be able to fight the enemy on a combined basis?
If you should have a war conflict, i.e., WW2, wouldn't it be better to be able to fight the enemy on a combined basis?With a deterrent like Trident we should be O......... errr hang on....
I thought this thread was having a Wizard of Oz audition, what with all the strawmen I've seen.
I thought this thread was having a Wizard of Oz audition, what with all the strawmen I've seen.Had a look through - which postings are you pointing at?
nightspirit
28-Jan-12, 17:56
Would have said defo YES until i heard the plan about joining the euro... so now i am heading to the fence or actually a NO...
All this about Scotland wanting to be an Independent Country
What about England? It's NOT an Independent Country
http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/englandnot.htm
DeHaviLand
28-Jan-12, 19:35
Would have said defo YES until i heard the plan about joining the euro... so now i am heading to the fence or actually a NO...
Think you need to look at it again. There is no current plan to join the Euro. No need to listen to the scaremongers and merchants of doom!
Maybe this idea about 'joining the Euro' might be something to do with this?:
"What seems to be missed by those who are fanatically Scottish Independence is that they must sign 'acquis communautaire' to join the EU, and part of that is to join the Euro.
Now, Salmond might be able to insert a referendum brake into the new Scottish Constitution that he would bring in, but the EU would insist that it is removed with regards to the EU and the Euro, a 'take it or leave it' ultimatum. The EU don't like referenda on anything to do with the EU.
Salmond says that Scotland would 'automatically be a member of the EU', that is not so. He could negotiate membership in the run up to Independence that coincides with Independence, but what kind of Independence leaves one Union - that has worked for 300 years - to another Union in one nanosecond? "
Anon
Think you need to look at it again. There is no current plan to join the Euro. No need to listen to the scaremongers and merchants of doom!
Actually the stop gap is to keep the Pound but if the plan is to join the EEC than there will be no choice as all new members will be required to. Unless the Euro collapses in the meantime, which is not unlikeley.
Alex Salmond believes that the current membership of the EU will be renegotiated, i.e. just splitting the MEP's/constituancies etc. pretty much keeping the status qou on the EU front initially.
DeHaviLand
29-Jan-12, 11:32
Everyone currently living in Scotland is a citizen of the EU. The EU has a sworn duty to protect that right of citizenship. Therefore, Scotlands right as a current member of the EU would appear to be assured.
An interesting take on EU membership in the 'Scotland in the World' section
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/spp/publications/unit-publications/51.pdf
Not much 'support' here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16779891
Argh for crying out loud FUD every where. International laws states that any country breaking away from a former parent country will inherit all treaties and agreements the government of that country will then have to renegotiate from there should they wish to. To preempt anyone raising the Spain issue, for a start that talking point came from Whitehall no one is spain has said anything. Nobody in the EU has ever left the EU voluntarily, let alone been expelled, and the idea that 5 million EU citizens in a stongly pro-EU country would be thrown out against their will is not in the realm of practical politics. The whole dynamic of the EU is expansive, with countries continually accepted into membership who technically should not be. Everybody knows, for example, that Romania and Bulgaria were not remotely close to compliance with the acquis communitaire when they were admitted. There is no appetite anywhere in the EU to argue that an EU member successor state would have to re-apply. The Spanish government are not stupid. It would be very unpopular in Spain to act against the Scots, and would infuriate the Catalans and actually boost the independence movement there. Tactically, there are times when it is best to pretrend to be relaxed about self-determination, as Cameron is doing. There is a real difference here with the Kossovans. Spain does not oppose Slovenia, Croatia or other parts of the former Yugoslavia from EU membership. It did not oppose the Czech Republic or Slovakia. Spain does not automatically argue against EU membership for splitting states – that is a lie spread by unionists. Unlike Kossovo, the Scottish state is not inextricably linked with organised crime, and is not outside the EU.
Regarding Michelle Mone. Are her products actually produced in Scotland? If not, I don't see how her moving the Business to England would be very effective. Surely the costs involved wouldn't be worth it. Secondly do we really decide such matters.
EDIT: You know I see a ton of studies and articles in favour of independence on a daily basis, I see a ton of what basically amount of bigoted articles against independence. I very rarely post because there serve no purpose that being said here's couple:
UK Foreign Secretary William Hague’s threat that Scotch whisky would no longer be promoted overseas has backfired after it emerged that the UK Government actually charges Scottish organisations for use of British Embassy facilities (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/4199-hague-whisky-threat-backfires-as-british-embassy-charges-reveal-double-standards)
No further tax powers for Scotland, says David Cameron (http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/politics/no_further_tax_powers_for_scotland_says_david_came ron_1_2084365)
Comedy genius - the Daily Record's Referendum Question (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2012/01/28/daily-record-poll-shows-wording-of-independence-poll-question-will-have-big-impact-86908-23723640/)
Nuclear subs will stay in Scotland, Royal Navy chiefs decide (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9043092/Nuclear-subs-will-stay-in-Scotland-Royal-Navy-chiefs-decide.html)
No Devo-Max says Cameron - even if Scots vote for it (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/4216-no-devo-max-says-cameron-even-if-scots-vote-for-it)
BBC defends Paxman ‘Mugabe’ slur after viewers complain (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/4195-bbc-defends-paxman-mugabe-slur-after-viewers-complain)
Not much 'support' here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16779891
She must be worried that Independence will go Tit's Up !!!!
Thats not worrying me at all, if she want to throw her toy's out of the pram that is up to her!!!
C3..........:roll:;)
Argh for crying out loud FUD every where. International laws states that any country breaking away from a former parent country will inherit all treaties and agreements the government of that country will then have to renegotiate from there should they wish to. To preempt anyone raising the Spain issue, for a start that talking point came from Whitehall no one is spain has said anything. Nobody in the EU has ever left the EU voluntarily, let alone been expelled, and the idea that 5 million EU citizens in a stongly pro-EU country would be thrown out against their will is not in the realm of practical politics. The whole dynamic of the EU is expansive, with countries continually accepted into membership who technically should not be. Everybody knows, for example, that Romania and Bulgaria were not remotely close to compliance with the acquis communitaire when they were admitted. There is no appetite anywhere in the EU to argue that an EU member successor state would have to re-apply. The Spanish government are not stupid. It would be very unpopular in Spain to act against the Scots, and would infuriate the Catalans and actually boost the independence movement there. Tactically, there are times when it is best to pretrend to be relaxed about self-determination, as Cameron is doing. There is a real difference here with the Kossovans. Spain does not oppose Slovenia, Croatia or other parts of the former Yugoslavia from EU membership. It did not oppose the Czech Republic or Slovakia. Spain does not automatically argue against EU membership for splitting states – that is a lie spread by unionists. Unlike Kossovo, the Scottish state is not inextricably linked with organised crime, and is not outside the EU.
Well written I thought.. but
http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/is-scotland-triggering-a-breakaway-movement-in-catalan/
Well written I thought.. but
http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/is-scotland-triggering-a-breakaway-movement-in-catalan/
As with many thing it comes down to which blogger/journalist/talking head you believe. Ultimately it's another way to avoid the core argument.
What I want is a list of advantages for Scotland remaining a part of the UK, not a list of supposed disadvantages for leaving. If Britain is so great, why can't they sell it to us?
I've been deliberately waiting for the votes to top 100 before closing the poll. As DeHaviLand predicted, Unionists rallied late on, for starters the Independents went way ahead.
Edit:Hmm, Am I being a numpty? I can't close the poll without closing the thread??
Closing the thread to close the poll and no doubt another Independence thread will be started or re-emerge. Maybe the Mods / Admin may start a sticky as it's a subject that is going to be with us for a while yet!?
Poll results to the question: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"
101 votes
Yes 47 votes - 46.53%
No 54 votes - 53.47%
Edit 2 A spelling correction & response to RecQuery's post below: I know the poll isn't going to be truly reflective for many reasons but it may give a general idea, and it was just out of curiosity if a question posed in a certain manner changed the outcome.
I've been deliberately waiting for the votes to top 100 before closing the poll. As DeHavLand predicted, Unionists rallied late on, for starters the Independents went way ahead.
The thing with online polls or even newspaper polls is that they're self-selecting and only people with strong opinions either way take part. Friend of mine worked in a call centre for a polling company a few years back and he told me some dodgy stories.
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