View Full Version : SNP....if you know their history.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Donaldson
Nationalism.
Are we attempting to dig up the dirt?
DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 10:49
No, he's merely repeating what is currently doing the rounds on Rangers fans sites at the moment. Typically, following like sheep without adding comment, and without having to do their own decision-making.
More sheep???? There are sheep all over these forums at the moment
I think I have previously commented that I find all forms of nationalism abhorrent, so don't require to add further comment.
IMHO a leopard does not change it's spots, and as I find when I encounters Scottish Natioalists, they have a greater hatred for England than love for Scotland.
I think I have previously commented that I find all forms of nationalism abhorrent, so don't require to add further comment.
IMHO a leopard does not change it's spots, and as I find when I encounters Scottish Natioalists, they have a greater hatred for England than love for Scotland.
It's no use slagging off any party if you aren't going to give us an alternative to vote for Scotsboy!!!!
Tell us who you vote for and why we should do the same and I might listen!
C3...................:roll::roll:
Any referendum will not be party based, so I would vote NO. It is up to individuals to make their own.
You do raise a valid point on the state of party politics in Scotland, I do not think there is a party that represents ordinary working class Scots.
I find when I encounters Scottish Natioalists, they have a greater hatred for England than love for Scotland.
Well born in England, English mum, lived in England half of my life. Two of my daughters live in England with their children. I support Sunderland AFC. Don't think i can be called anti-English or hate England. Voting for Independence.
Most Independence supporters I know & that is a lot are not anti English. You should of seen the vicious anti-scottish comments on tweeter yesterday.
Well born in England, English mum, lived in England half of my life. Two of my daughters live in England with their children. I support Sunderland AFC. Don't think i can be called anti-English or hate England. Voting for Independence.
Most Independence supporters I know & that is a lot are not anti English. You should of seen the vicious anti-scottish comments on tweeter yesterday.
You are not a Scottish Nationalist;-)
DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 12:44
I think I have previously commented that I find all forms of nationalism abhorrent, so don't require to add further comment.
IMHO a leopard does not change it's spots, and as I find when I encounters Scottish Natioalists, they have a greater hatred for England than love for Scotland.
More rubbish Scotsboy. Point me in the direction of just 1 of our SNP MSP's who you think hates England more than they love Scotland. Go on, just one.
I see DeHaviLand, anything I care to add to the “debate” is rubbish, even when it is clearly stated that this opinion is based on my experience and interaction with others.
I do not know (or at least I do not think I know) any of “your” SNP MSPs so cannot comment on their particular “hates”, but I can talk about the rank and file membership who I have interacted with.
You may not like my opinion, but it is as valid as yours.
I don’t currently live in the UK, but rest assured I will be making sure my name is on the electoral role for the referendum.
tonkatojo
11-Jan-12, 13:19
Well born in England, English mum, lived in England half of my life. Two of my daughters live in England with their children. I support Sunderland AFC. Don't think i can be called anti-English or hate England. Voting for Independence.
Most Independence supporters I know & that is a lot are not anti English. You should of seen the vicious anti-scottish comments on tweeter yesterday.
A Mackem supporter admitting it in public takes guts ;) , but which way would you vote, you have me confused I know it doesn't take much.:confused
DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 13:21
I don’t currently live in the UK, but rest assured I will be making sure my name is on the electoral role for the referendum.
Thats OK Scotsboy, provided you're paying your taxes here, I have absolutely no problem with you voting whichever way you wish.
And you must "encounter" MSP's if you read the political news, or listen to political news broadcasts.
You made an attempt to tarnish all SNP supporters as haters of the English. You made an attempt to align all SNP supporters with the views of Arthur Donaldson. The SNP have moved on from those days. If you want to hate the SNP based on what happened 60 years ago, then its probably safe to assume that you hate all Germans because of what Hitler did around that time. Thats fine, but one day you'll look around you and realise that the world has moved on while you were pre-occupied with the past.
Anybody can dig stuff up out of history to support their viewpoint....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Scottish_sentiment
Stick to the current situation instead of muckraking through history.
LOL, of course I don’t pay taxes, and have no intention to, but I am entitled to vote and will – actually so is my wife who just happens to be German! LOL.
I don’t get a lot of Scottish political media interference out here in the Middle East, so do not encounter any Scottish MSPs. The encounters I am talking about are face to face interactions with people, many of whom I know.
I repeat, I abhor all forms of Nationalism, it is divisive.
Anybody can dig stuff up out of history to support their viewpoint....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Scottish_sentiment
Stick to the current situation instead of muckraking through history.
Which particular section of the Scottish political system does the link refer to then Alrock? And remind me which famous anniversary comes in 2114?
Aye, let's keep it current....and relevant;-)
The History is relevant and we should all guard against the kind of nationalism that fuels racist or facist behaviour but these ARE different times and just as you shouldnt vote for independence solely on the basis that the English King 'murdered' William Wallace nor should you vote for the Union because the SNP leader behaved in a particular way during WW2. I am always a bit baffled when I hear about anti english sentiment or a hatred of the 'English' as I dont see it or hear it. Where i have experienced abuse due to being english it has generally been from a drunk who wanted something from me that I couldnt do. I never experience it in my daily life or from the people that i meet in the reenactment world.
Crackeday
11-Jan-12, 18:37
You made an attempt to tarnish all SNP supporters as haters of the English. You made an attempt to align all SNP supporters with the views of Arthur Donaldson. .
I note your first post made an attempt to "tarnish" all Rangers supporters as sheep? So its Ok for you to do that but if anyone else disagrees then its "rubbish"?????
Crackeday
11-Jan-12, 18:41
Personally Id rather stay in the Uk, but I can see that the nats have done a not too bad job so far BUT i feel if they had more power then it would only end in tears. Id rather be in the union but still have a wee bit of power, at least then we would still have the safety net of westminster for when Alex messes it all up!!
John Little
11-Jan-12, 18:56
People think differently - they all have opinions and the variety of opinion on a range of issues is infinite. Running coherent policies requires that individual opinion be converted into 'public opinion' because this is a force which can shape policy, reform and change.
You forge public opinion by finding that which most can agree on and articulating it.
It is the skill of a propagandist to find the one idea on which the majority agree.
If the propagandist can articulate this in such a way as to command the support of the majority then he can unite a large and varied group who actually disagree with each other on a wide range of other issues.
The skilled propagandist can, given time, create a bandwagon effect where the dominating idea becomes the over-riding concern of people who would normally be at daggers drawn over other issues.
The SNP stands for many things apart from Independence. If Labour and Lib Dem are Unionist and Scotland gets independence, does she need a new party to oppose the SNP in a sovereign Scotland?
peter macdonald
11-Jan-12, 19:01
Now Scotsbhouy if you are resorting to trawling old firm websites for dirt ,then the boredom of living in your non UK tax paying location must be getting to you ... For those that dont know there are a MINORITY of followers of Rangers and Celtic who really dont like the SNP .The SNP government has made the filthy bigotry which these morons spew about the IRA,the Pope,the Queen, hating Catholics and Protestants illegal. Imagine that eh that in 2012 somebody is trying to make it possible to listen/ watch a football match with out suffering that drivel. And just maybe it might help cut the amount of domestic assaults committed in the name "our traditions"
So Scotsbhouy if that is the world your PC is inhabiting I suggest you regularly dip your keyboard and mouse in Cuprinol bilgex after each use
If you want to just dig historic dirt lets begin with the secrecy of the Mccrone report, Tony Blairs relations with Gaddaffi, Lockerbie or a bit further back Churchills proposed deal with De Valera over Ulster, and why was an heir to the British throne fighting
for the Germans in WW1 ....The Duke of Edinburgh had his wedding guest list savaged before his marriage to the Queen ,in fact his mother Princess Alice was the only close relative there ...Why.................... Just a small spec of dirt in the midden that is history
DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 19:03
I note your first post made an attempt to "tarnish" all Rangers supporters as sheep? So its Ok for you to do that but if anyone else disagrees then its "rubbish"?????
Then you should read it again. Or have someone explain it to you.
And remind me which famous anniversary comes in 2114?
Aye, let's keep it current....and relevant;-)
The 800th anniversary of Bannockburn? ;)
DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 19:39
The 800th anniversary of Bannockburn? ;)
Thats unfair Rheg, even I was letting him off with that typo!
Peter, let's stick to RELEVANT facts. The leader of the SNP in the 60s was a fascist. In my experience a significant proportion of nationalist support is from those with exclusive, rather than inclusive viewpoints.
I may not require to pay UK tax, but am entitled to vote. One of the privileges of being British.
Remind me again about the support Alex Salmond gave to Sir Fred Goodwin.
Peter, let's stick to RELEVANT facts. The leader of the SNP in the 60s was a fascist. In my experience a significant proportion of nationalist support is from those with exclusive, rather than inclusive viewpoints.
I may not require to pay UK tax, but am entitled to vote. One of the privileges of being British.
Remind me again about the support Alex Salmond gave to Sir Fred Goodwin.
What do you have to do to vote in the Scottish Referendum? Are all ex-pat Scots eligible? I thought I heard only those resident in Scotland would be consulted.
How do you differentiate? Currently all British citizens are from the same state regardless if you hail from Cardiff, Newcastle, Glasgow, Plymouth or Belfast. Once you are no longer resident, after the referendum and Independence, do you become a non Scot? :eek:
I own a property so can still register on electoral role.
I own a property so can still register on electoral role.
Sorry SB, I didn't mean you specifically. What about non resident Scots that are not on the electral roll?
I don't see how they can be kept track of, in fact I'm sure they haven't been. They will remain UK citizens (if they are) as many will have taken citizenship elsewear. The other question that comes to mind is what are the American Lobby groups doing/saying? The ones that claim Scots ancestry are usually quite vocal.
I own a property so can still register on electoral role.
Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless you are paying Council Tax on that property and living at that property on the date the electoral role is put together!!!!
C3................:eek::roll:
bluenosenic
11-Jan-12, 20:21
Peter,with regards your point about how well the Snp has done with the new anti biigotry laws do you think they will go the whole hog and end separate schooling when we get an independent Scotland
peter macdonald
11-Jan-12, 20:28
And who exactly knighted Sir Fred in 2004 for his services to banking remind me please?? Ah yes the leader of the SNP 50 years ago was fascist..MI5 said so ,He was never charged and NO evidence was ever produced despite his widow asking for any to be released .. So what even if he was ??... Oswald Mosley was a Labour Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and was within Ramsay MacDonalds say so of becoming home secretary .See where he ended up?? A big difference between one of the top UK government posts and the leader of a very obscure political party of the time.
You may be of the opinion that SNP support is of exclusive nature..up to you ..but why have the 2 most exclusive political parties in the UK ie BNP and UKIP never gained any meaningful support in Scotland?? As for relevant facts you are digging up "dirty" history I was just giving you some suggested reading ...
I pride myself in paying my taxes...it pays for the police who keep me safe ..it pays for my teachers..and all the other things that make up a democratic society ..referendums and all
PM
ps remember the bilgex :-))
Of course I pay council tax, and I don't require to live their on the day the electoral roll is put together;-)
Of course not all of those who will vote for independence in a referendum will be SNP, you will also have such luminaries as Siol nan Gaidheal, check out their website, nice piece on demographics
http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/title.htm
I'm an incomer, I pay taxes, I wear my family tartan and I have as much Scottish DNA in my system as most residents.
I voted 'in'.
John Little
11-Jan-12, 20:37
Of course not all of those who will vote for independence in a referendum will be SNP, you will also have such luminaries as Siol nan Gaidheal, check out their website, nice piece on demographics
http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/title.htm
I read that and I throw up my hands - good luck guys. There is no arguing with it.
If that's how most Scots feel...
Independence for Scotland.
The sooner the better.
peter macdonald
11-Jan-12, 20:37
Peter,with regards your point about how well the Snp has done with the new anti biigotry laws do you think they will go the whole hog and end separate schooling when we get an independent Scotland
My own view on faith schools is I feel they are counter productive ,,,but never have lived around them I could very well be wrong...The big problem in getting rid of them if desired is the many different forms they take and faiths they uphold .
bluenosenic
11-Jan-12, 20:58
My own view on faith schools is I feel they are counter productive ,,,but never have lived around them I could very well be wrong...The big problem in getting rid of them if desired is the many different forms they take and faiths they uphold .
Surely with the brave new Scotland we are going to get it would be better to start with a clean slate and end the faith schools no matter what form they take .
Surely with the brave new Scotland we are going to get it would be better to start with a clean slate and end the faith schools no matter what form they take .
If they declared that an independent Scotland was to be a truly Secular state with religion playing no part in government whatsoever then they would win my vote.
I read that and I throw up my hands - good luck guys. There is no arguing with it.If that's how most Scots feel .Its not lol and I wouldnt worry there is about 20 of them and their dog. They are a bit like our old friend Fred.... Conspiracy theorists and single minded in their belief that they are right. Every group has its nutters!
Crackeday
12-Jan-12, 08:39
Then you should read it again. Or have someone explain it to you.
This is what you wrote: "No, he's merely repeating what is currently doing the rounds on Rangers fans sites at the moment. Typically, following like sheep without adding comment, and without having to do their own decision-making."
What explanation do I need for that? You assume that because someone has a point of view other than your own then they must have been "trawling" football sites for info?
From what ive read scotsboy has an opinion and seems to have done his research on the subject, not just from football sites.
Next thing you know the thread will descend into a skectch from the league of gentleman!!!
"This is a local forum for local people we'll have no trouble here", but whos tubbs?????? ;) lol
peter macdonald
12-Jan-12, 15:34
"Quote Originally Posted by bluenosenic View Post
Surely with the brave new Scotland we are going to get it would be better to start with a clean slate and end the faith schools no matter what form they take .
If they declared that an independent Scotland was to be a truly Secular state with religion playing no part in government whatsoever then they would win my vote".
I cant disagree with this...................Just wish I knew more about the subject
peter macdonald
12-Jan-12, 16:02
"Quote Originally Posted by scotsboy View Post
Of course not all of those who will vote for independence in a referendum will be SNP, you will also have such luminaries as Siol nan Gaidheal, check out their website, nice piece on demographics
http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/title.htm"
Must be desperate Scotsbhouy when your trawling up these oddballs.
I am just waiting for you to declare Jack the Ripper was a founder of the SNP
And to those who dont know it was of course Tony Blair PM who in 2004 insticated a knighthood for Fred Goodwin for his services to banking. Ah yes 2004-5 It was around the time the Metropolitian police received complaints by Scottish National Party MP Angus MacNeil, Elfyn Llwyd (Plaid Cymru parliamentary leader), and a third individual who continues to remain unidentified, about possible breaches of the law against selling honours. Now there was no implication that Fred Goodwin was involved and never has been but when you read how many times the Met had to interview Tony Blair....along with Lord Levy being arrested ....Charles Clarke ,Lord Falconer denying all knowledge etc etc.....It makes a good read Scotsbhouy if you want to dig dirt...:-))
But yet againPeter none of those people are in support of Scottish Independence. I'm actually an admirer of Salmonds political prowess, and have commented on it many times. You must agree he was very much in the wrong to back Sir Fred, and offer up RBS as an example to others at that time.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GjGoPHYZSLk/Td0yz3z-hMI/AAAAAAAACjM/YdBW6VwWxwY/s1600/snp%2Blogo.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GjGoPHYZSLk/Td0yz3z-hMI/AAAAAAAACjM/YdBW6VwWxwY/s1600/snp%2Blogo.jpg
I think you have a serious problem and I would go and get it addressed sooner than later, ring up your GP and go and get an appointment. Anyone who insults those who died at the hands of the Nazi's is in need of help, please get some ASAP!
C3...............[disgust][disgust]
Was looking for the 1991 version of the "clootie dumpling" but couldn't find one, so thought that quite apt, as it was quoted as resembling a fascist symbol. Don't see any insults towards those who suffered at the hands of nazis in my posts, but I do consider nationalism a form of fascism.
Here's another Scottish political party in favor of independence, I actually know a couple of people who were/are involved with this lot AND Seed of the Gael! http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/index.html
Is this the military wing of the Scot Nats?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
Is this the military wing of the Scot Nats?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
Scraping the bottom of the barrel now Golach!!!! I will make sure you are deported to London when we get independence.
C3...............:roll:;)
secrets in symmetry
12-Jan-12, 20:23
Here's another Scottish political party in favor of independence, I actually know a couple of people who were/are involved with this lot AND Seed of the Gael! http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/index.htmlI know one too! He's an extremist and (like most extremists) he is happy in any extreme organisation - it doesn't matter that these two particular extreme organisations have diametrically opposite beliefs and policies. Mind you, Hitler was a fascist and a socialist at the same time, as were most of the Soviet leaders. Once a nutter, always a nutter....
I've been to a couple of SNP-run political meetings. A good fraction of the party faithful at those meetings were particularly nasty. The leadership, MSPs, councillors and their public faces may not be fascists or racists, but a fair number of their activists were. This was some years ago when the SNP were in the electoral wilderness, things could well be different now....
I've been to Labour meetings too. They have their share of nasties, but the SNP nasties were far worse than the Labour nasties. I've even been to Lib-Dem meetings - as you might expect, there were no nasties there lol!
For goodness sake! Can we stop calling each other names and get down to discussing proper issues!!!! You talk about nasties, I have been to PTA meetings which have included a share of the nastiest wierdest parents I have ever met but all PTA meetings arent Nasty. There are many weird groups and people and Im a reenactor.... I KNOW weird!
I accept that we need to be wary of facism rearing its ugly head. I do however feel that you guys are over egging the pudding as far as the anti english stuff goes. I see plenty of anti Uk, anti british parliament, anti england centric policies which i expect from a Nationalist party but anti English?? That is something altogether different and I have seen none of that.
I too have been to SNP meetings and a meeting of some SDA people too. I have never experienced anything like the sort of racist attitudes people are suggesting occur on a regular basis and which some of you suggest underpin everything the Nationalist Ethnic Scot ( for want of a better phrase) stands for. Your description of the Nationalists as English hating facists is insulting, patronising and so far from the reality of the man in the street as to be farcical. Carrying on like you guys are doing demeans your own arguments because if you are going to dance off into the realms of the far fetched and cry 'facist' or 'terrorist' every time the SNP is mentioned people are going to presume that NOTHING you say is worth listening to.
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