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Corrie 3
10-Jan-12, 20:28
Ok, the date is set for the referendum.
The biggest decision the Scottish people have had to make for 300 years.

Autumn 2014 cant come quick enough for me, what about you?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16478121



C3................:):)

AliciaMackinnon
10-Jan-12, 20:35
End of the union by 2015

squidge
10-Jan-12, 20:43
Bring it on!!! Its exciting and hopefully it will lead to a vibrant and enthusiastic debate! Fantastic!

billmoseley
10-Jan-12, 20:51
will it be a mass debate? [lol]

John Little
10-Jan-12, 20:51
It is up to the people of Scotland to decide their future.

However I have to make two observations.

1 I do not believe that it is Mr Salmond's legal right to hold a referendum on the UK. That is the prerogative of the UK Parliament. He might try to swing such a thing with populist sentiment, but the fact remains that in law his constitutional right to do so is dubious.

2 If someone is prepared to over-ride or stretch their constitutional powers in pursuit of political ends, then that person needs watching very carefully.

Rheghead
10-Jan-12, 21:01
It appears that independence is popular north and south of the border.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/interactive/2012/jan/09/scotland-independence-referendum

weezer 316
10-Jan-12, 21:46
It is up to the people of Scotland to decide their future.

However I have to make two observations.

1 I do not believe that it is Mr Salmond's legal right to hold a referendum on the UK. That is the prerogative of the UK Parliament. He might try to swing such a thing with populist sentiment, but the fact remains that in law his constitutional right to do so is dubious.

2 If someone is prepared to over-ride or stretch their constitutional powers in pursuit of political ends, then that person needs watching very carefully.

But dont you get it John, no one tells us scots what to do, no one! Its just the UK govt meddling for no reason other than wanting to tell us what to do. Dont you get it!! Dont you get it!! You unpatriotic fooooooool! Heathen!!! HEEEEAAAATHEN!!!! I HAVE A PYRE HERE WITH YOUR NAME ON IT!!!!!


The consultation paper makes for interesting reading, saying the UK govt has asked Holyrood since winning the election for details on their proposed referendum. Nothing has been forthcoming.

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact the commonwealth games and the battle of bannockburn anniversary will be around then.

Corrie 3
10-Jan-12, 22:48
But dont you get it John, no one tells us scots what to do, no one! Its just the UK govt meddling for no reason other than wanting to tell us what to do. Dont you get it!! Dont you get it!! You unpatriotic fooooooool! Heathen!!! HEEEEAAAATHEN!!!! I HAVE A PYRE HERE WITH YOUR NAME ON IT!!!!!


The consultation paper makes for interesting reading, saying the UK govt has asked Holyrood since winning the election for details on their proposed referendum. Nothing has been forthcoming.

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact the commonwealth games and the battle of bannockburn anniversary will be around then.
Of course the Tories want us to hurry up and leave the Union. With the loss of Labour seats in Scotland the Tories will have control of what is left of the Union for years and years to come!!!

C3.......:eek::eek::eek:

weezer 316
10-Jan-12, 22:54
Now only a nationlist could think (I they do such things) like that!

Corrie 3
10-Jan-12, 22:58
Now only a nationlist could think (I they do such things) like that!
Aye weeze but think about it......If Scotland left then the Tories have it all sewn up, no one else can catch them can they? And we have always been a thorn in their side !!!

C3...................:eek:

David Banks
11-Jan-12, 00:14
It is up to the people of Scotland to decide their future.

However I have to make two observations.

1 I do not believe that it is Mr Salmond's legal right to hold a referendum on the UK. That is the prerogative of the UK Parliament. He might try to swing such a thing with populist sentiment, but the fact remains that in law his constitutional right to do so is dubious.

2 If someone is prepared to over-ride or stretch their constitutional powers in pursuit of political ends, then that person needs watching very carefully.

I am in complete agreement with your first statement, but find your subsequent comments to be contradictory.

Can you tell me what words in UK law or constitution prohibit Scots from self-determination ?

Fly
11-Jan-12, 00:19
Alex salmond and the SNP make a great fuss about independence. However if Scotland does decide to leave the UK, he will sign us up to the EU. Will someone tell me where the independence is in that?

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 00:48
It is up to the people of Scotland to decide their future.

However I have to make two observations.

1 I do not believe that it is Mr Salmond's legal right to hold a referendum on the UK. That is the prerogative of the UK Parliament. He might try to swing such a thing with populist sentiment, but the fact remains that in law his constitutional right to do so is dubious.

2 If someone is prepared to over-ride or stretch their constitutional powers in pursuit of political ends, then that person needs watching very carefully.

You may find this of interest John. http://weegiewarbler.blogspot.com/2012/01/referendums-who-can-call-them.html?showComment=1326209554715#c8232489272979 532260

And you are of course right in your second point. Cameron does need watching closely!

golach
11-Jan-12, 00:55
And you are of course right in your second point. Cameron does need watching closely!

As does Wee Fat Eck!!! his party want to lower the age of voters on the referendum to 16. aye right!!!

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 01:08
Why would you deny 16 year olds the right to vote Golach? Maybe we should deny the right to vote to those who are over 60, because some of them seem to be losing their marbles by this age!

shazzap
11-Jan-12, 01:29
Anyone for tennis.

weezer 316
11-Jan-12, 09:11
Why would you deny 16 year olds the right to vote Golach? Maybe we should deny the right to vote to those who are over 60, because some of them seem to be losing their marbles by this age!

The voting age is well established in the couitnry and has been for blody years. Its 18. He wil harm his case he is effectivly trying to get children to vote for him.

John Little
11-Jan-12, 09:19
I am in complete agreement with your first statement, but find your subsequent comments to be contradictory.

Can you tell me what words in UK law or constitution prohibit Scots from self-determination ?

I have never stated that there is anything in the law of the UK or of its constitution which prohibits Scots from having self determination.

However, as it is constituted we are a union and the right of calling referendums rests with the government of the Union.

How could it be otherwise?

If it did not, and the only qualifying factor for calling a referendum was the right of self determination, then what is to stop anywhere that wishes calling a referendum? Yorkshire would probably secede immediately.

Automatic right to secede by the calling of a plebiscite would make all federal government meaningless.

However you have piqued my curiosity - in Canada, was it the Canadian government or the Quebecois government who had the power to call the referendum?

John Little
11-Jan-12, 09:33
You may find this of interest John. http://weegiewarbler.blogspot.com/2012/01/referendums-who-can-call-them.html?showComment=1326209554715#c8232489272979 532260

And you are of course right in your second point. Cameron does need watching closely!

Thank you for that - very interesting. I have no doubt that we will see many such articles in the coming weeks.

There is one issue which she does not address and it is the main one. This is not actually a question of 'Independence'.

It's a question of 'sovereignty'.

In other words, where is the power vested in the United Kingdom?

Some powers have been specifically devolved to the Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh parliaments.

Others have not.

On the question of Sovereignty in the United Kingdom there is absolutely no doubt - it rests with the Queen in Parliament.

In other words, if Mr Salmond attempts to carry through a sovereign act for which the power has not been devolved, then he exceeds his powers.

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 10:20
The voting age is well established in the couitnry and has been for blody years. Its 18. He wil harm his case he is effectivly trying to get children to vote for him.


Dumb argument Weezer, even by your standards. By that kind of reasoning, we wouldn't change anything. We'd still have poorhouses, debtors prisons, capital punishment! Surely you can do better than that.

pinotnoir
11-Jan-12, 10:20
The myth that the Tories are handicapped by, or that Labour could not survive in Westminster without their Scottish MP's, needs to be nailed,

http://wingsland.podgamer.com/?p=13513

Shabbychic
11-Jan-12, 13:18
Lowering the voting age to 16 is not a new concept, nor is it uniquely down to the SNP. Here (http://www.votesat16.org/about/supportive-politicians/) are a list of MPs that supported the notion, although probably now that the SNP has mentioned it, many will be retracting their support.

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 13:25
Lowering the voting age to 16 is not a new concept, nor is it uniquely down to the SNP. Here (http://www.votesat16.org/about/supportive-politicians/) are a list of MPs that supported the notion, although probably now that the SNP has mentioned it, many will be retracting their support.

There's a lot of Labour MP's on that list. Strangely not so many Labour MSP's. Maybe thats because of their policy of opposing the SNP no matter what!

weezer 316
11-Jan-12, 13:35
Dumb argument Weezer, even by your standards. By that kind of reasoning, we wouldn't change anything. We'd still have poorhouses, debtors prisons, capital punishment! Surely you can do better than that.

Dumb retort. A primary reason its 18 is by that age most (not all) are able to make rationed grown up decisions. My little brother s 16 and would vote for who his mates said. That's not a way to conduct things is it??

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 13:39
Dumb retort. A primary reason its 18 is by that age most (not all) are able to make rationed grown up decisions. My little brother s 16 and would vote for who his mates said. That's not a way to conduct things is it??

Likewise I would contend that the majority of 16 year olds are capable of forming their own opinion. Just because your brother can't is no reason to tar them all with the same brush!

weezer 316
11-Jan-12, 13:41
Good post John.

Salmond is a disgracet. The UK govt has said its illegal to hold a referendum on breaking up the union without the UK govt either doing it themselves or giving Holyrood the power to do so. Its clearly defined in the law, and was part of the Scotland act as far as I am aware.

Anyway......they offer first a legally binding deal to the SNP, then say failing that we find a way around the legal issues that wont make it past a legal challenge so that the vote is final and it doenst end up in the courts either way...............We fat ecks response is "get your nose out of our business". That is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Childish, and appealing to the nationalist streak. No argument, no case, no facts (he hasnt a clue what they are anyway) and no acknowledgment of the law as it stands.

The man is an embarrassment.

Imagine Cameron ignoring the Geneva conventions or any UK Law on the account it doesn't fit with his aims??? He would be slaughtered.

weezer 316
11-Jan-12, 13:44
Likewise I would contend that the majority of 16 year olds are capable of forming their own opinion. Just because your brother can't is no reason to tar them all with the same brush!

And again I would point out most they would vote with their mates regardless of the issues. Is that how you want democracy tp be conducted in this country?? Why not 14 then? Or 12 if thats the case?

Shabbychic
11-Jan-12, 13:55
There is an interesting article by a Dr Matt Qvortrup (http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts-blog/dr_matt_qvortrup_scotland_does_not_need_permission _to_go_it_alone_1_2047506) in the Scotsman today, with regards to the legality of Scotland holding a referendum.

scotsboy
11-Jan-12, 13:59
I have no problem with the referendum; I would if I was a UK tax payer as I consider it a waste of funds that could be best used for something important.
Let’s be clear, this is a once in a generation maybe lifetime vote, Salmond has played this magnificently – referendum in 2014, his 60th birthday, either he goes out on a high or he can retire gracefully knowing he did his best. If he has it now, he kicking his heels with nothing to do.

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 14:01
Weezer,

I can point you to huge numbers of 18, 21 even 30 year olds who are incapable of forming their own opinions. They can be found at Celtic Park and Ibrox on most weekends.
We let our teenagers go their own way once they reach 16. We send them out to find a job, or go onto further education, even to join the Army. If they're responsible enough at 16 to make a decision that will affect the rest of their life, then they are responsible enough to have a say in the future of the country in which they live.

squidge
11-Jan-12, 14:04
Your 16 year old brother may well vote for whatever his mates say but there are plenty of 40 year olds who would do the same. My 16 year old son knows his own mind and would vote for exactly what HE wants regardless of anyone else. The important thing is that they VOTE. At 16 you can work and pay taxes, you can get married and can you still join up? I say lets engage the 16/17 year olds and enthuse them, inspire them and try to encourage their participation.

theone
11-Jan-12, 14:06
Likewise I would contend that the majority of 16 year olds are capable of forming their own opinion.

That may well be the case.

But if it is, will the legal age for buying cigarettes and alcohol be lowered at the same time?

Surely if you're old enough to decide the fate of your country then you can decide the fate of your own health?

scotsboy
11-Jan-12, 14:07
Your 16 year old brother may well vote for whatever his mates say but there are plenty of 40 year olds who would do the same. My 16 year old son knows his own mind and would vote for exactly what HE wants regardless of anyone else. The important thing is that they VOTE. At 16 you can work and pay taxes, you can get married and can you still join up? I say lets engage the 16/17 year olds and enthuse them, inspire them and try to encourage their participation.

It is there future after all, won't make much difference to me.

John Little
11-Jan-12, 14:16
There is an interesting article by a Dr Matt Qvortrup (http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts-blog/dr_matt_qvortrup_scotland_does_not_need_permission _to_go_it_alone_1_2047506) in the Scotsman today, with regards to the legality of Scotland holding a referendum.

Yes - as I said before, we can expect a lot of these.

The fact is that the SNP cannot afford to have a referendum whose legitimacy may be called into question.
Equally the UK government cannot afford to alienate Scots opinion by dragging it through the courts.

I have just watched Michael Moore reiterate on the 1 o clock news that it is the prerogative of the UK parliament to hold a referendum or devolve the power to do so under the Scotland act. He's prepared to talk to the SNP.

Mr Salmond has indicated the same.

Anticipate some intense talking and hard-ball in the next few weeks.

Incidentally, calling the UK government the 'London government' is unhelpful.

Carole
11-Jan-12, 14:38
It appears that independence is popular north and south of the border.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/interactive/2012/jan/09/scotland-independence-referendum

Perhaps this reflects the long held view (by those south of the border) that Scotland receives more than its fair share from the Treasury? Many folks in England will be pleased to see Scotland having to stand on its own two feet - instead of being subsidised by English tax payers. But then that's another story ........

Shabbychic
11-Jan-12, 14:40
Perhaps this reflects the long held view (by those south of the border) that Scotland receives more than its fair share from the Treasury? Many folks in England will be pleased to see Scotland having to stand on its own two feet - instead of being subsidised by English tax payers. But then that's another story ........

The sad thing is, many Scots believe this too.

Carole
11-Jan-12, 14:43
The sad thing is, many Scots believe this too.

Probably because it is true.

Shabbychic
11-Jan-12, 15:01
Probably because it is true.

Well, as you say.....that's another story.

bekisman
11-Jan-12, 15:53
I think the SNP got 902,915 votes in 2011, Of which Labour + Tory + Libdems not wanting Independence having won 1,064,827 votes -so would have thought it would not be a foregone conclusion for independence?

Just heard some MP bod in Westminster saying that the Welfare bill in Scotland was three times the 'income 'of North Sea Oil - is that right?

Oh I'm sooo confused :roll:

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 16:00
I think the SNP got 902,915 votes in 2011, Of which Labour + Tory + Libdems not wanting Independence having won 1,064,827 votes -so would have thought it would not be a foregone conclusion for independence?

Just heard some MP bod in Westminster saying that the Welfare bill in Scotland was three times the 'income 'of North Sea Oil - is that right?

Oh I'm sooo confused :roll:

Are you assuming that no Tory, Liberal or labour supporters want Independence, and that all SN P supporters do want it? Its not going to be that clear cut. But you are right that the Independence issue is far from settled. It wont be settled even after a referendum. In my opinion, theres a lot of work yet to be done by both sides. I would imagine that around 20% of those who will bother to vote, are yet to be persuaded on what side to cast their vote.

weezer 316
11-Jan-12, 16:06
Well, as you say.....that's another story.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/06/21144516/6

There is the govts figures on the matter you can view for yourself. We pay in including north sea oil, £48.1bn, and the Scottish govt receives £30bn in a block grant (or did in 2010). The UK govt is still responsible for unemployment benefit, defence, pensions, child benefit, tax credits, foreign policy, aid and various other smaller programs. It also has direct investment in scotland that would dissapear with independence.

Going on the per capita rates of these things, last estimate I read was the SNP being in a £7bn hole. They have yet to explain how they would fill that, or what happens or will continue to happen as north sea oil revenues decline. Furthermore, upon independence we will have debt to carry (I assume our per capita rate of 8.6% of UK debt) which would equate to about £100bn. They have yet to explain how they would pay this back either. Debt is equal to about 60% of our current GDP.

They need to make this case Shabby, not moan about Westminister. Surely you can appreciate that?

weezer 316
11-Jan-12, 16:13
I think the SNP got 902,915 votes in 2011, Of which Labour + Tory + Libdems not wanting Independence having won 1,064,827 votes -so would have thought it would not be a foregone conclusion for independence?

Just heard some MP bod in Westminster saying that the Welfare bill in Scotland was three times the 'income 'of North Sea Oil - is that right?

Oh I'm sooo confused :roll:

Alex you had better start explaining lad!

octane
11-Jan-12, 16:13
The idiot is on a power trip just like the rest of them, milking and frauduently conning the working man out of there hard earned cash. Votes count for nothing and the people of Britain have no say whatsoever in agendas etc........ all part of the media propoganda thats setup to brainwash the public into thinking there making a difference.

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 16:20
The idiot is on a power trip just like the rest of them, milking and frauduently conning the working man out of there hard earned cash. Votes count for nothing and the people of Britain have no say whatsoever in agendas etc........ all part of the media propoganda thats setup to brainwash the public into thinking there making a difference.

Which idiot are you talking about octane?

gerry4
11-Jan-12, 17:51
As does Wee Fat Eck!!! his party want to lower the age of voters on the referendum to 16. aye right!!!
Clegg has stated in the past he wanted to reduce the voting age, as has Ed. So not so radical

DeHaviLand
11-Jan-12, 18:25
Going on the per capita rates of these things, last estimate I read was the SNP being in a £7bn hole. They have yet to explain how they would fill that, or what happens or will continue to happen as north sea oil revenues decline. Furthermore, upon independence we will have debt to carry (I assume our per capita rate of 8.6% of UK debt) which would equate to about £100bn. They have yet to explain how they would pay this back either. Debt is equal to about 60% of our current GDP.

They need to make this case Shabby, not moan about Westminister. Surely you can appreciate that?

Here's your figures sorted out for you. There is no £7bn hole. http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524

weezer 316
11-Jan-12, 18:40
So...to clarify........in 2010 (that link has 2008 figures) you WERE £6bn OUT!!! Jesus! Tax take from north sea oil in 2008 - £11.7bn - accoding to the govt at the link below, this is the govt, the taxt take in 2010 was a whopping £6.4bn!!! So...............does this mean we agree or are you gonna throw another link that backs up my case?

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/06/21144516/7

Corrie 3
11-Jan-12, 19:13
So...to clarify........in 2010 (that link has 2008 figures) you WERE £6bn OUT!!! Jesus! Tax take from north sea oil in 2008 - £11.7bn - accoding to the govt at the link below, this is the govt, the taxt take in 2010 was a whopping £6.4bn!!! So...............does this mean we agree or are you gonna throw another link that backs up my case?

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/06/21144516/7
Do you want the number for Qantas Airlines? They have a flight leaving tomorrow!!

C3.........:roll::roll:

weezer 316
11-Jan-12, 20:46
Oh if i could go tommrow I would!

Any comment corrie bar childish national sniping?

Shabbychic
12-Jan-12, 00:31
They need to make this case Shabby, not moan about Westminister. Surely you can appreciate that?

I do appreciate that, and I look forward to the both sides stating their cases, rather than all the propaganda and rubbish being spouted by the media. I do favour independance at the moment, but I have an open mind, and will weigh everything up very carefully. I just wish more people would do that rather than supporting a side because of misinformation, the football team they support, preconceived ideas, or because they still believe all the lies put out in the 70s and 80s, and are stuck in a timewarp. (e.g. SNP are tartan tories)

I also believe that people should look at the facts, and not just decide to keep the union because they don't like Alex Salmond. This decision is bigger than one man, and to decide because of how you feel about an individual, is totally crazy.

I do also however feel that the SNP get a really raw deal by the Scottish media, especially the BBC, and many facts are suppressed from the public. I have in the past and will continue to add links I feel are relevant, because I believe everyone is entitled to know what is going on, and not just depend on the media bias. I would never try to sway anyone, but feel sometimes, when reading some posts, that there are too many who just repeat the party line verbatim, and don't even try to find the facts.

weezer 316
12-Jan-12, 21:14
I do appreciate that, and I look forward to the both sides stating their cases, rather than all the propaganda and rubbish being spouted by the media. I do favour independance at the moment, but I have an open mind, and will weigh everything up very carefully. I just wish more people would do that rather than supporting a side because of misinformation, the football team they support, preconceived ideas, or because they still believe all the lies put out in the 70s and 80s, and are stuck in a timewarp. (e.g. SNP are tartan tories)

I also believe that people should look at the facts, and not just decide to keep the union because they don't like Alex Salmond. This decision is bigger than one man, and to decide because of how you feel about an individual, is totally crazy.

I do also however feel that the SNP get a really raw deal by the Scottish media, especially the BBC, and many facts are suppressed from the public. I have in the past and will continue to add links I feel are relevant, because I believe everyone is entitled to know what is going on, and not just depend on the media bias. I would never try to sway anyone, but feel sometimes, when reading some posts, that there are too many who just repeat the party line verbatim, and don't even try to find the facts.

Right well why arent they making that case? Cameron offered them, on a plate, a legally binding referendum. He acknowledges they won on a independence vote ticket and is willing to work towards the point where a vote is legal and is recognised by the UK govt . He recognises this will end up in court for years. which helps no one, unless westminster takes the steps needed to make it above board .

The SNP, instead of saying "We have the ability to make this all legal, all we need to do is repeat what we did on 2011 and we are home free" spins it, ignores the offer while knowing full well the only body that can break up the Uk the UK parliment, its clearly defined in law (Infact in the very act that gives holyrood the mandate to govern for chirst sake!!) says westminster is trying to run the referendum by proxy and interfering in Scotland affairs, despite the fact us leaving the union is very much a UK govt affair also!!!!

That, no matter who it is, is an absolute disgrace and extremely childish. I put it to you he is trying to incite anti-westminster/English feeling and ISNT making the case for independence. Now I would like you, assuming you agree, to acknowledge that please.

squidge
12-Jan-12, 21:23
Weezer anti westminster is NOT the same as Anti English. They are not interchangeable. They are two different things and whilst the first is expected and indeed part and parcel of being a Nationalist, the second is something different entirely.