CM v VS

[porshiepoo]

There's been some interesting convos over on FB recently with regards to opinions on the training methods of Cesar Milan compared to those of Victoria Stillwell and I'm interested to hear what y'all think.
Are you avid followers of cesar Milan and his pack mentality approach to training with all the 'hands on' work this entails? Or are you more of a Victoria Stilwell fan and prefer the positive reinforcement approach?
Were you a fan of one but have since switched camps? Or do you prefer other methods?

I was an avid CM fan once upon a time. His methods appeared to get results quickly and the dogs he worked on appeared to understand what he was trying to do. Pinning a dog to the floor actually seemed a logical idea if you worked by the theory that packs of wolves behaved in such a manner in order to asert their dominance and leadership which, if you believe CM, is pivotal to a happy and stable pack.
The neck jab always seemed a tad ....cruel.... but when you tried to think the way a dog would, it suddenly seemed logical, especially as the end result was always a more respectable animal.
However, over time I have done much online research of the modern day dog and current thinking is that our pet dogs today are about as close in habit to a pack of wolves as our current habits are to Neanderthal man - it makes sense when you think about it. Canines may have evolved from the wolf as we evolved from neanderthal (though it's debateable as to whether some ever evolved at all lol) BUT although we can accept that we have adapted to the more refined (cough cough) people we are today, for some reason we assume that the canine has hit a time warp and has not adapted at all.
There is even much research to suggest that the Wolf pack does not actually communicate and work the way CM claims it does. CM seems to believe that a pack of wolves is constantly fighting for dominance to be pack leader - not true. This theory came about from the study of a pack of wolves in the 40's that weren't even in their natural enviroment - they were captive kept.

VS on the other hand has the positive reinforcement approach. Her results are not as quick as CM in most cases but she does seem to have a high success rate - maybe even higher than that of the 80% claimed by CM producers!
Her approach does not involve kicking, nudging, stringing up or pinning to the ground and yet she gets the same results as CM who claims these actions are pivotal and necessary to the animal. I know which method I would prefer!

I've recently seen footage of CM shows that I hadn't seen before. These clips centred on his kicking of dogs to get the behaviour he wanted. He of course claimed they are nudges which he uses to snap a dog out of that unwanted behaviour but so many times I saw that this 'nudge' was actually what caused the behaviour when with him.
There was one dog that was going berserk and attempting god only knows what - a big dog too. CM claimed he kept the dog at arms length till it calmed down and then he pinned the dog to the floor when the dog submitted. Well i watched that clip with no commentary and what I saw was a dog going ballisitic, CM keeping it at arms length on a very short (the dog was on his hind legs) quite tight throat leash and eventually it calmed down through sheer exhaustion and lack of oxygen and it was just as the dog layed itself down that CM claimed to have dominated it! Bizarre.

So what do you think and what methods of training do you follow?

[Sarah]

I'm really on the fence about them both. Some things I love about them, and some things I hate about them. I don't prefer one over the other.

Ceser Milan does amazing work, some things I'm not 100% on what he does, but there's no denying he is a good man doing good work (in my opinion). He HAS done a lot of good. He has helped a lot of dogs.

Victoria Stillwell also has her moments, but I feel she can be a bit too soft sometimes, of course dogs respond well to positive training, however sometimes I think she could do some things differently and get better/faster results.

I don't follow either. I use both positive and negative (negative being the word NO and timeouts when they misbehave). Katy has been a hard dog to train. She was away from her litter and mother very young, so never learnt any manners. When she first came home, the first few weeks were an absolute nightmare, she would bit and draw blood several times a day. I had been trying the VS method, of giving Katy something else to focus on (be it a toy, or whatever), but it was making no difference. She just wanted to bite us. When she started biting other people as well, I'd had enough, and took a different approach. Bite = behind the baby gate, in the dark kitchen on her own, for 5 minutes. It didn't take long for her to stop biting, I assure you. She HATED being left on her own with nothing to do, away from us and the other dog.

I honestly think positive and negative (to a point, obviously not hitting) training is the way to do it. Katy is a well behaved dog now, for the most part :p she certainly doesn't bite anyone now.

[Liz]

Like you PP, I feel that Cesar Milan's training methods are way out of date. What worries me more though is people copying what he is doing, in particular the 'kicking' etc, and causing real harm to their dog. Not only physically but mentally. Therefore making whatever problem there were even worse.
You can never train a dog using fear!

I personally really like Victoria Stillwell's methods and don't find her soft at all. She uses her voice and body language a lot which I think is good. Also, no dog is going to be harmed using her methods.

Did either of you see the trainer on 'The One Show'? I didn't but apparently the methods they used wasn't very nice either and, again, people will copy this and the end result will not be good.
Do either of you remember Barbara Woodhouse and her bliddy choke chain?! Everyone at the time thought she was absolutely marvellous but I hate to think how many poor dogs' necks she hurt!

I prefer to just use positive and negative methods, like you Sarah, as it is quite simple and does get results.

Glad wee Katy is doing so well. She's gorgeous!

[Hogfather]

Have always hated CM. Know enough about behaviour to know that he doesn't! :roll: I don't want my own dogs scared of me, and I don't want other people's dogs scared of me either (mostly because I like all my body parts to remain attached!!!) :)

[buzzard]

I also dislike Cesar Milan, and also certainly don't believe dogs are constantly fighting for dominance! I'm all for positive reinforcement. I especially like what this trainer does: http://goodboydogschool.com/ His book is excellent. It's mainly based on positive reinforcement, I think his way of training (hand feeding) is a great way to work with problem dogs (we have been to a few of his dog training camps). Mainly because he makes it FUN.
Though on the other hand, I also do know from experience that not all problem behaviour can be solved just with rewards, negative reinforcement may be necessary however it certainly does not mean your dog needs to fear you, or that you need to bully or hurt it.
I also like some of the 'Natural Dog Training' ideas of Kevin Behan, Neil Sattin & others, especially the idea of using your dogs 'prey drive' to bond.
But if there's one thing I've learned, it's that there is an HUGE difference between dogs. To think 'this will work for this dog because it worked for so many others' is often a mistake. Each dog is an individual with different needs. I also found that some dogs have the tendency to revert back to old behaviour/problems if you don't keep on top of the problem ALL the time. Especially if problems come from bad socialisation as a pup. So sometimes there is no permanent 'cure', you just have to live with it and love the dog for who it is (though of course it can only do good to keep on training anyway).

[Liz]

I really believe that diet has a big impact on a dog's behaviour.

So many foods have colourings, additives that our dogs aren't supposed to eat and they can affect them mentally as well as physically.

Someone gave my dog Benjy a treat which contains artificial colours and he went absolutely hyper for hours! I have recommended a food like Naturediet to a few people who had dogs with 'behavioural problems' and they said the change of diet made such a difference.

I must have a look at the link you gave buzzard as like the sound of that trainer. :)

[porshiepoo]

I do remember BW Liz lol, but more for the blowing up horses noses than much else lmao.

Years ago I used to follow alot of Jan Fennels ideas. I had her books and actually met her at crufts (the meeting her was a most unpleasant experience though) and I used some of her techniques to help a lady who had one of my Dane puppies and allowed her to run riot. It wasn't anything extreme it was basic meal time rules and ways to help her stop the dog jumping on people from behind (can be a GD problem but it's simple instinct).
Her methods really helped and she was all for pack theory but not to the extremes of CM.

The real problem I have with CM methods other than the abuse is the fact that anyone can try these methods and unlike VS methods Cesars are not really for the inexperienced person to even attempt, so much of what he does relies on being able to read a dog and that's something that is fraught with problems.
My daughter is a shining example. She loves animals and is experienced with dogs but from the start of watching CM something changed for her. She saw (or thought she saw) so many examples of our dogs showing dominant behaviour toward us and very slowly she stopped enjoying being around the dogs because of it. It was really sad because all the things she used to love doing with them she stopped doing due to her belief that it was dominant or high energy behaviour that had to be ignored.
She's older now and can see what time she lost with our dogs because of CM's influence, but she still has moments where she has to remind herself that what they're doing is not in fact bad or dominant behaviour, it's simply canine behaviour.

I still believe CM has some affinity with dogs and is able to rehabilitate certain behaviours but not when it involves kicking, choking or pinning to the ground. I'm still on the fence about flooding because I do believe certain situations for both human and animal can benefit from that kind of therapy.

VS certainly has a less 'forceful' attitude toward training and although I found her unwatchable to start with (her voice still grates) I can respect what she is capable of achieving and really enjoy watching her now.

[Shabbychic]

As far as I was aware, Victoria Stillwell is a dog trainer and Cesar is a dog psychologist. Two different things entirely. There is so much hype being spouted about Cesar on the net, and some of it is being repeated here almost verbatim, kicking, pinning, jabbing and all the rest. If anyone actually sat down and watched Cesar dealing with dogs, rather than reading the nonsense being put out there by dog trainers who are raging that Cesar is now getting the attention that they used to get, (especially Ian Dunbar) and will do anything to discredit him, they would understand what he is doing and why. He is not kicking the dogs, he is nudging them to break their concentration on a particular item or situation. He also does not use the same methods for all dogs, like many trainers do. He studies the situation, the human element as well as the canine one, and treats each case as an individual. Very often, all it takes is for the owner to change their bad habits or hang-ups, and the dog changes in response.

While I do not see Cesar as the be all and end all, I do believe he does have an understanding of how the dog's mind work. This, "the modern day dog and current thinking is that our pet dogs today are about as close in habit to a pack of wolves as our current habits are to Neanderthal man," that always gets quoted, is also nonsense. Dump some dogs out to fend for themselves and see how long it takes them to revert back to the wild, pack mentality. There are examples of this happening in many poor areas throughout the world. I have a young puppy right now that stalks, pounces and worries his teddy in such a manner, that I have no doubts at all that if teddy was a small animal, it wouldn't survive very long. This is completely natural to him, and is exactly the same as some wild animals I have seen doing the same thing.

It should also be remembered that many of the cases seen on The Dog Whisperer, are extreme cases and not the norm. Having also watched Cesar with his pack, to me they all appear happy and calm in his presence, and in no way fearful of him.

I personally don't think anyone has the perfect method, and believe a mixture of training and psychology is the best way to go, but I feel Cesar gets a really bad deal from some dog trainers who believe that they are the only ones that know what to do, and that their methods are gospel.

[Tilter]

CM's methods have I believe been discredited by now, especially in this country, as being outdated. Yes, wolves live and hunt in packs but co-exist by cooperation rather than dominance. Domestic dogs are related to wolves as we are to other great apes. The original studies of wolves were done on captive wolves and the latest research has been done on wolves in the wild.

CM's methods could really be dangerous, as in "don't try this at home," and to put an already stressed dog through his methods could result in an owner getting severely injured. Having rescued a fear-aggressive dog and managed her for 5 years, I know that positive reward-based training works and that CM's methods would likely cause me injury.

Another good book is "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.

[porshiepoo]

As far as I was aware, Victoria Stillwell is a dog trainer and Cesar is a dog psychologist. Two different things entirely. There is so much hype being spouted about Cesar on the net, and some of it is being repeated here almost verbatim, kicking, pinning, jabbing and all the rest. If anyone actually sat down and watched Cesar dealing with dogs, rather than reading the nonsense being put out there by dog trainers who are raging that Cesar is now getting the attention that they used to get, (especially Ian Dunbar) and will do anything to discredit him, they would understand what he is doing and why. He is not kicking the dogs, he is nudging them to break their concentration on a particular item or situation. He also does not use the same methods for all dogs, like many trainers do. He studies the situation, the human element as well as the canine one, and treats each case as an individual. Very often, all it takes is for the owner to change their bad habits or hang-ups, and the dog changes in response.

While I do not see Cesar as the be all and end all, I do believe he does have an understanding of how the dog's mind work. This, "the modern day dog and current thinking is that our pet dogs today are about as close in habit to a pack of wolves as our current habits are to Neanderthal man," that always gets quoted, is also nonsense. Dump some dogs out to fend for themselves and see how long it takes them to revert back to the wild, pack mentality. There are examples of this happening in many poor areas throughout the world. I have a young puppy right now that stalks, pounces and worries his teddy in such a manner, that I have no doubts at all that if teddy was a small animal, it wouldn't survive very long. This is completely natural to him, and is exactly the same as some wild animals I have seen doing the same thing.

It should also be remembered that many of the cases seen on The Dog Whisperer, are extreme cases and not the norm. Having also watched Cesar with his pack, to me they all appear happy and calm in his presence, and in no way fearful of him.

I personally don't think anyone has the perfect method, and believe a mixture of training and psychology is the best way to go, but I feel Cesar gets a really bad deal from some dog trainers who believe that they are the only ones that know what to do, and that their methods are gospel.


There is no such thing as a dog psychologist. Psychology is a study of the mind and as far as I'm aware not even Cesar milan can't have a conversation with a dog or understand its mind with any degree of accuracy. Yes, he can observe behaviour but how does he then interpret that behaviour? What actual qualifications does CM have in the canine world anyways? Serious question that as I have no clue.

The kicking is just that. i have seen the nudges you speak of and TBH there was a time when I could go along with the thinking that perhaps it does snap a dog out of its current behaviour but I've also seen footage of those nudges turning into actual kicks - real kicks. One even looked like a freaking football kick aimed at 2 Great Danes. The problem is also that the owners see this action, see the result and use that training themselves. I dread to think how out of hand some of those owners must get afterwards.

that always gets quoted, is also nonsense. Dump some dogs out to fend for themselves and see how long it takes them to revert back to the wild, pack mentality. There are examples of this happening in many poor areas throughout the world. I have a young puppy right now that stalks, pounces and worries his teddy in such a manner, that I have no doubts at all that if teddy was a small animal, it wouldn't survive very long. This is completely natural to him, and is exactly the same as some wild animals I have seen doing the same thing.


And modern man still goes out to hunt the way Neanderthal man did but we no longer drag the kill of to a cave and eat raw meat from a leg bone. We have more advanced social status's now. we are capable of group living or solitary life - we have adapted.
Dogs have done the same. I'm not suggesting that we have removed instinct, simply diluted it. Survival instinct is still there for canines as it is for modern man but not to the same extent as it was - the exception to this would obviously be the wolfdogs or the wolf hybrid dogs.
Also certain breeds are more likely to show what we would refer to as 'wild behaviour' such as GSD', Rotterweilers etc etc but are they more likely showing the behaviour that we have bred into them???
Your puppy is most definitely doing what instinct dictates and maybe he would kill a small animal. I doubt he would drag it off and eat it though unless he was curious as puppys are.
Dogs no longer look to instinct to provide food, shelter or safety, they look to us if they are in a home situation.

I was also disillusioned with the CM setup but you don't get to see what happens behind the scenes. CM has more help than any normal person would ever have, even the fabulous 20 dog pack walk is surrounded by helpers. he doesn't just walk in and immediately know what to do either and he has had plenty of failures, plus that kicking I talk of - he's even kicked with skates on his feet!

Pinning to the floor is still a so so for me! I've done it and had fabulous success with it BUT I would prefer an alternative method as there is no satisfaction in the action.
CM certainly does have an affinity with dogs there's no denying that. He bases alot of his theory on watching packs of dogs on his family farms as a child but his methods are not for the inexperienced.

[summer]

I personally don't think anyone has the perfect method, and believe a mixture of training and psychology is the best way to go, but I feel Cesar gets a really bad deal from some dog trainers who believe that they are the only ones that know what to do, and that their methods are gospel.

I think that too, everyone should be free to watch the tv shows, read the books and the magazines. But at the end of the day use the bits that work for you and forget the bits that don't. For me personally I've got the most out of seeing a local qualified dog trainer - maybe I learn best that way.

[Dadie]

Read all the books, watch all the programs, try a behaviourist, try training lessons etc and pick and choose what will work best for you and your dog.
You are an individual and your dog is too!
It also depends on how far you want/need the training to go...Im happy if Poppy dog answers me on recall and sit commands.
But if you need more out of your dog you need to put in the time....no one seems to mention the time and commitment to reinforce the training anywhere!