Another huge windfarm being proposed for west caithness

[Green_not_greed]

Not content with Baillie and Forss plus the Forss extensions, I see another windfarm is being proposed which will be larger that that lot put together. Its for up to 50 turbines, at the Lime Kiln, Cnoc nan Airigh, immediately south of Reay. Applicants are Inifinergy. I think this is on land owned by Hovig but I'm not sure - it may also be on Sandside estate land.

Its at scoping only at this point. Here is a map link

http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm?mapAction=gaz&gazName=g&gazString=NC980615

I (http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm?mapAction=gaz&gazName=g&gazString=NC980615)f anyone has any more info please let me know. Thanks.

[Rheghead]

Well it seems that it is more than 2km from dwellings, so no concern, right?

[weezer 316]

An absolute non story I am afraid. They are here, deal with it. Either that or turn your lights out.

[ywindythesecond]

Not content with Baillie and Forss plus the Forss extensions, I see another windfarm is being proposed which will be larger that that lot put together. Its for up to 50 turbines, at the Lime Kiln, Cnoc nan Airigh, immediately south of Reay. Applicants are Inifinergy. I think this is on land owned by Hovig but I'm not sure - it may also be on Sandside estate land.

Its at scoping only at this point. Here is a map link

http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm?mapAction=gaz&gazName=g&gazString=NC980615

I (http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm?mapAction=gaz&gazName=g&gazString=NC980615)f anyone has any more info please let me know. Thanks.

Its the new kid on the block. Between 30 and 50 turbines between 125 and 145metres high. Forss is 78m, Causeymire is 98.5m.
This brings the total number of Buolfruich+ size windfarms planned for Caithness to between 329 and 363. Remember when planners used to turn down a new Chinese restaurant because it would lead to "overprovision"?
The really silly thing is that the energy that these machines would generate is intended for England. Scotland as Alex Salmond tells us is a nett exporter of electricity already. But England has its own share of windfarms and it is building nuclear power plants for cheap reliable electricity so why would English consumers want our overpriced wind energy instead, and why would they pay the billions of pounds needed to upgrade the transmission from Denny to somewhere around Birmingham just to to buy it? Its a house of cards.

[DrChin]

Another new Wind Farm EH!! Best News I have had today.

With a Bit of Good Luck we will get another 3 or 4 of them Next year :Razz

[orkneycadian]

This brings the total number of Buolfruich+ size windfarms planned for Caithness to between 329 and 363.

:eek: Wow! Thats a lot! Boulfruich, according to the interweb, is a windfarm of 15 turbines. So 363 windfarms of 15 turbines would be 5445 wind turbines! :eek:

Are there really that many planned, or is ywindy quoting erroneously again?

[ywindythesecond]

:eek: Wow! Thats a lot! Boulfruich, according to the interweb, is a windfarm of 15 turbines. So 363 windfarms of 15 turbines would be 5445 wind turbines! :eek:

Are there really that many planned, or is ywindy quoting erroneously again?

Many thanks for your correction dokc. I indeed meant 363 wind turbines, not 363 windfarms. As far as we know, there are only 18 additional windfarms planned for Caithness comprising a total of 315 big wind turbines to add to the 48 we already have.

[orkneycadian]

C'mon ywindy, if your gonna bandy all these facts and figures around on here, is there no chance at least some of them could be accurate?

First it was MW figures that were out by approximately 100%, then Hunsterston the thermal nuclear power station ([lol]), now, numbers of turbines that are out by a factor of 15!

Are any of your facts and figures ever right?

[ywindythesecond]

C'mon ywindy, if your gonna bandy all these facts and figures around on here, is there no chance at least some of them could be accurate?

First it was MW figures that were out by approximately 100%, then Hunsterston the thermal nuclear power station ([lol]), now, numbers of turbines that are out by a factor of 15!

Are any of your facts and figures ever right?

I'm just human dokc and sometimes I slip up and say things like windfarms when I mean wind turbines. So having confessed to that, how about you putting your mind to rubbishing the other things I said like:
"1. The really silly thing is that the energy that these machines would generate is intended for England.
2. Scotland as Alex Salmond tells us is a nett exporter of electricity already.
3. But England has its own share of windfarms and it is building nuclear power plants for cheap reliable electricity so
4. why would English consumers want our overpriced wind energy instead, and
5. why would they pay the billions of pounds needed to upgrade the transmission from Denny to somewhere around Birmingham just to to buy it?
Its a house of cards."

Don't remember the 100%-out MW figures, care to remind me?

[Phill]

:confused
With all these windymills up here shouldn't we all be on free leccy now?
My bills seem to be going up and up and up.

[offcomedun]

:confused
With all these windymills up here shouldn't we all be on free leccy now?
My bills seem to be going up and up and up....are these wind farms subsidised ? if so you will be paying twice for your leccy ...once in your bill and the rest through taxes.

[Rheghead]

"1. The really silly thing is that the energy that these machines would generate is intended for England.


I doubt it.

If all the wind farms that are in the planning process get permission (which you are determined to prevent) then in terms of electricity, Caithness will produce ~1340% of its electrical energy demand. Pretty good, no? However, if we go by your old mucker's book, David JC Mackay; Energy without the hot air, then Caithness will be self sufficient to the tune of ~165% of its total energy demand from onshore wind.

However, when we look at the big picture things don't look too rosie.

If all the wind farms that are in the planning process in Scotland get planning then there will only be enough energy produced to supply 97% of Scotland's electrical energy demand and only ~12% of its total energy demand.

[Green_not_greed]

Well it seems that it is more than 2km from dwellings, so no concern, right?

So you're now admitting that turbines should be more than 2km from dwellings. That's a step in the right direction. I remember you supporting the Baillie wind farm enquiry which has turbines as close as 400 meters from dwellings. Partially thanks to your efforts those living within 2km from those turbines - and almost certainly further away - will have their lives blighted by noise and health problems.

[Rheghead]

So you're now admitting that turbines should be more than 2km from dwellings. That's a step in the right direction. I remember you supporting the Baillie wind farm enquiry which has turbines as close as 400 meters from dwellings. Partially thanks to your efforts those living within 2km from those turbines - and almost certainly further away - will have their lives blighted by noise and health problems.

No not at all, your words not mine, I'm just saying that the wind farm appears to be over 2km from dwellings and that it should be no concern to anyone who states that wind farms should be sited further than 2km from dwellings.

[orkneycadian]

I'm just human dokc and sometimes I slip up and say things like windfarms when I mean wind turbines. So having confessed to that, how about you putting your mind to rubbishing the other things I said like:
"1. The really silly thing is that the energy that these machines would generate is intended for England.
2. Scotland as Alex Salmond tells us is a nett exporter of electricity already.
3. But England has its own share of windfarms and it is building nuclear power plants for cheap reliable electricity so
4. why would English consumers want our overpriced wind energy instead, and
5. why would they pay the billions of pounds needed to upgrade the transmission from Denny to somewhere around Birmingham just to to buy it?
Its a house of cards."

Don't remember the 100%-out MW figures, care to remind me?

Windfarms and wind turbines is a big thing to confuse, so very important you get it right! Just the same as its important to take your photographs with the right amount of zoom! ;)

1. Can you explain how power from the North of Scotland "overtakes" the epower from further south to get to England? You were saying above that Caithness will have 363 wind turbines of Boulfrouich sized or bigger - As they are 0.85 MW each, lets assume for easy counting that the average size of these 363 turbines you are worried about is 1.5 MW. That then, is a total power of 545MW. Thats about 1/3 of the demand in the Hydro Electric area in Scotland alone, not counting the central belt, according to the interweb. So how does that electricity get to England without feeding the Scottish demand? Do they have passing places in the wires that means that Caithness electricity can get straight to England without coming out of sockets in Inverness?
2. And good news that is too! In this current economic climate, exports are good, whether it be energy, beef, kilts, whisky or whatever. Are you suggesting that Scotland should aim to have a negative balance of trade, and just import everything we need?
3. And good on them! Hope they have learned their lessons from Japan though!
4. Have you seen how long it takes to build a nuclear power station? Especially those thermal ones....
5. Simples - To get it from A to B. And whatever flows through the wires, a more robust electricity system must be beneficial all round. Years ago, we used to have power cuts for days on end regularly, when the power system here on Orkney was weak and spindly. Then they beefed it up with more wires going in different directions and fancy switches on the poles. Now we hardly ever have power cuts, and if we do, they last just 10 minutes, as the system is beefy enough to have power sent round it other ways when wires fall down

Oh, and the roughly 100% error on your MW figures was when quoting how little MW's the countries windfarms produced on day XXX when in actual fact your data source only counted about half of them!

[bekisman]

Might be good news to some?The electricity industry regulator, Ofgem, has published proposals which could lead to a big drop in the amount renewable energy generators in Scotland pay to connect to the grid. At the moment generators pay more if they are further away but Ofgem wants to create a fairer pricing formula. It said wind farms in the north of the country could see reductions of up to 60%...


And looks like bad news for others?However, Mr Stuart expressed concern that developments on Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles still face huge charges, with a wind farm on the Western Isles paying £77,000 for every megawatt of capacity in 2012 under the reforms, compared to a charge of £2,000 per MW in south west England.


Never mind Orkneycadian...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16274417

[orkneycadian]

Send them over here if you don't want them! Seems that renewable energy is now one of Orkneys significant industries, whilst Caithness is crying "Woe is us, theres no work to be had, what will be do?"

[ywindythesecond]

Windfarms and wind turbines is a big thing to confuse, so very important you get it right! Just the same as its important to take your photographs with the right amount of zoom! ;)

1. Can you explain how power from the North of Scotland "overtakes" the epower from further south to get to England? You were saying above that Caithness will have 363 wind turbines of Boulfrouich sized or bigger - As they are 0.85 MW each, lets assume for easy counting that the average size of these 363 turbines you are worried about is 1.5 MW. That then, is a total power of 545MW. Thats about 1/3 of the demand in the Hydro Electric area in Scotland alone, not counting the central belt, according to the interweb. So how does that electricity get to England without feeding the Scottish demand? Do they have passing places in the wires that means that Caithness electricity can get straight to England without coming out of sockets in Inverness?
2. And good news that is too! In this current economic climate, exports are good, whether it be energy, beef, kilts, whisky or whatever. Are you suggesting that Scotland should aim to have a negative balance of trade, and just import everything we need?
3. And good on them! Hope they have learned their lessons from Japan though!
4. Have you seen how long it takes to build a nuclear power station? Especially those thermal ones....
5. Simples - To get it from A to B. And whatever flows through the wires, a more robust electricity system must be beneficial all round. Years ago, we used to have power cuts for days on end regularly, when the power system here on Orkney was weak and spindly. Then they beefed it up with more wires going in different directions and fancy switches on the poles. Now we hardly ever have power cuts, and if we do, they last just 10 minutes, as the system is beefy enough to have power sent round it other ways when wires fall down

Oh, and the roughly 100% error on your MW figures was when quoting how little MW's the countries windfarms produced on day XXX when in actual fact your data source only counted about half of them!

1. Think of Alex Salmond's about turn when he stopped saying the target was "all of Scotland's electricity" to the "equivalent of all of Scotland's electricity". I assume a certain level of knowledge and understanding of the issues you debate dokc, so I didn't explain in fine detail that if there is already a sufficiency of generation to meet Scotland's needs and more is poured in at Caithness, the equivalent amount of surplus generation has to be disposed of elsewhere and that is England-wards.
2.There are no wires big enough to carry the sort of generation planned for Caithness to feed to Denny for transmission to England. What is the point of manufacturing something you cant sell?
3. The lesson from Japan was that even a forty year old nuclear plant can pass through two major scale natural disasters and still not cause a major nuclear incident. Modern better sited plant would be designed for much greater events. Question. Why, if it is a bad idea to build new nuclear because of Fukshima, is it a good idea to store captured carbon in voids underground when a Fukushima type earthquake could release years-worth of carbon capture in a few hours?
4. We needed to build new nuclear years ago but politicians were scared to say the word. It is better to start late than never because renewables can't replace reliable despatchable generation.
5. I have never heard the phrase "robust electricity system" before. I assume you mean reliable generation and transmission systems. You can have the best transmission system in the world but it is absolutely no good to anyone if the electricity doesn't turn up because the wind doesn't. Or as we have seen dramatically recently, too much turns up.

ok dokc, you have addressed:

"1. The really silly thing is that the energy that these machines would generate is intended for England."

Now carry on and address the rest of my post:

2. Scotland as Alex Salmond tells us is a nett exporter of electricity already.
3. But England has its own share of windfarms and it is building nuclear power plants for cheap reliable electricity so
4. why would English consumers want our overpriced wind energy instead, and
5. why would they pay the billions of pounds needed to upgrade the transmission from Denny to somewhere around Birmingham just to to buy it?
Its a house of cards."

Re 100% error. I was hoping you would explain but no, just another vague reference to a supposed fault on my part.

[orkneycadian]

Now carry on and address the rest of my post:

I already have, but you glossed over it, and to he honest, I can't really be bothered to go over it again!

[ywindythesecond]

I already have, but you glossed over it, and to he honest, I can't really be bothered to go over it again!
I have checked and you definitely didn't address:
"why would English consumers want our overpriced wind energy instead, and
why would they pay the billions of pounds needed to upgrade the transmission from Denny to somewhere around Birmingham just to to buy it?"

[Rheghead]

I have checked and you definitely didn't address:
"why would English consumers want our overpriced wind energy instead, and
why would they pay the billions of pounds needed to upgrade the transmission from Denny to somewhere around Birmingham just to to buy it?"

They will want to buy it simply because it isn't over priced and they will want it to be delivered.

[Mystical Potato Head]

Send them over here if you don't want them! Seems that renewable energy is now one of Orkneys significant industries, whilst Caithness is crying "Woe is us, theres no work to be had, what will be do?"

Thats strange because last year the number of people claiming unemployment benefit(August 10-August 11) in Orkney rose by 16.6%, compared with the previous year.The largest increase of any of
Highlands and Islands areas,according to HIE figures.Caithness and Sutherland rose by 4.8%.

Oh woe are we.Woe,woe and trice woe.

[orkneycadian]

Yep, all that Tesco induced shop closures are starting to show a bit on the local figures. Fortunately, still a lot better than Wick and Thurso!

Source = http://www.hie.co.uk/common/handlers/download-document.ashx?id=320cdef2-6935-44d4-8ec8-68d66ccfbbe3

[Green_not_greed]

I'm just saying that the wind farm appears to be over 2km from dwellings and that it should be no concern to anyone who states that wind farms should be sited further than 2km from dwellings.

Definitely sounds like backpedalling.......

[Rheghead]

Definitely sounds like backpedalling.......

OK have it your way then.

[Rheghead]

3. But England has its own share of windfarms and it is building nuclear power plants for cheap reliable electricity

Nuclear power is only cheap if it runs at maximum power, that is because the peripheral costs eg. safety, people, justification, admin etc amounts to 72% of its running costs, refuelling amounts to 28% of running costs. Compare that with fossil fuels where fuel costs are ~75% and peripherals 25%.

Now there is a myth that nuclear is reliable and that they typically run at load factors of 80%-90% which is considered much more desirable than that of wind (typically 25%-35%) but that is far from the case. They do have shutdowns and they get more frequent as they age which has a direct effect on their commercial viability.

Here are some load factors of UK nuclear power stations for 2010, oh dear not quite 80-90%

Dungeness B 31%
Hartlepool 78%
Heysham 1 52%
Heysham 2 58%
Hinkley point 58%
Hunterston B 64%
Sizewell B 43%
Torness 59%

I wonder what the 2011 figures will be like?

[bekisman]

Over the course of a year, A wind turbine will generate about 30% of the theoretical maximum output. This is known as its load factor. The load factor of conventional power stations is on average 50%.
(RenewableUK)!

[ywindythesecond]

Nuclear power is only cheap if it runs at maximum power, that is because the peripheral costs eg. safety, people, justification, admin etc amounts to 72% of its running costs, refuelling amounts to 28% of running costs. Compare that with fossil fuels where fuel costs are ~75% and peripherals 25%.

Now there is a myth that nuclear is reliable and that they typically run at load factors of 80%-90% which is considered much more desirable than that of wind (typically 25%-35%) but that is far from the case. They do have shutdowns and they get more frequent as they age which has a direct effect on their commercial viability.

Here are some load factors of UK nuclear power stations for 2010, oh dear not quite 80-90%

Dungeness B 31%
Hartlepool 78%
Heysham 1 52%
Heysham 2 58%
Hinkley point 58%
Hunterston B 64%
Sizewell B 43%
Torness 59%

I wonder what the 2011 figures will be like?

A few issues here Reggy. First is a point you made - the plant is ageing.


Power station
Dungeness B 31%
Hartlepool 78%
Heysham 1 52%
Heysham 2 58%
Hinkley point 58%
Hunterston B 64%
Sizewell B 43%
Torness 59%


Age in years
22 and 26
22
22
22
33 and 35
34 and 35
16
22 and 23



Therefore needs more maintenance and has more breakdowns, but at no time does all nuclear power generation shut down at the same time, nor does coal or gas. Hydro and pumped storage hydro can but that is only as a result of an informed action by controllers. Only wind energy can absent itself virtually 100%, and it does so frequently and cannot be predicted to provide any known level of generation at any point in the future, although hats off to National Grid, their short term (24 hours) forecasts are hitting the mark quite well.
Nuclear provides around 8GW in winter and 6GW in summer from an installed capacity of around 9.5GW. In the last 24 hours, nuclear output has been between 7318MW and 7356MW while wind has been between 497MW and 2968MW. Nuclear input was planned, wind input was random. That is what I mean by reliable. Any plant can break down and that is why National Grid maintains a Short Term Operating Reserve (STORR) to cover such eventualities and planned maintenance is a feature of all technologies.
If England increases its nuclear base load capacity, they also have to make provision for controllable generation to satisfy peak demand and provide STORR.That is why new gas plants are to be built. Investing billions of pounds in transmission to be able to use expensive Scottish wind-generated energy which will most likely not be available when needed is not a sensible option. The politicians haven't quite got that yet, but they will soon.

[Rheghead]

but at no time does all nuclear power generation shut down at the same time.....[]... Investing billions of pounds in transmission to be able to use expensive Scottish wind-generated energy which will most likely not be available when needed is not a sensible option. The politicians haven't quite got that yet, but they will soon.

You forgot to mention that Hunterston B was shutdown for 2 days 8-10 December during high winds because the transmission system is not fit for purpose yet you made such a hullaballoo over wind turbines doing the same. The truth is always in what you don't say rather than what you say.

But I'm glad that you acknowledge that nuke isn't necessarily reliable or cheap even though you didn't expressly say so.

[ywindythesecond]

Over the course of a year, A wind turbine will generate about 30% of the theoretical maximum output. This is known as its load factor. The load factor of conventional power stations is on average 50%.
(RenewableUK)!

1. Average output from wind was 27.18% of metered capacity in 2009, 21.14% in 2010, and 24.08%
between November 2008 and December 2010 inclusive.

(ANALYSIS OF UK WIND POWER GENERATION NOVEMBER 2008 TO DECEMBER 2010 http://www.jmt.org/assets/pdf/Report_Analysis%20UK%20Wind_SYoung.pdf)
It’s a cracking good read!

[ywindythesecond]

You forgot to mention that Hunterston B was shutdown for 2 days 8-10 December during high winds because the transmission system is not fit for purpose yet you made such a hullaballoo over wind turbines doing the same. The truth is always in what you don't say rather than what you say.

That's rich coming from you Reggy!
I didn't know that Hunterston B was shut down by wind but I imagine that it was caused by storm damage to the transmission system which prevented its normal output being delivered in its normal way. Windfarms have been paid (£12M so far) to stop generating in high wind and low demand conditions because the connected wind capacity exceeds the transmission capacity under those circumstances and there are plans for more wind capacity but only aspirations for more transmission capacity. The means of transmitting any energy from Limekilns Windfarm to its intended market don't exist, and there are no current plans to construct it. And there is no certainty that there actually is a market for it.

[orkneycadian]

1. Average output from wind was 27.18% of metered capacity in 2009, 21.14% in 2010, and 24.08%
between November 2008 and December 2010 inclusive.

Orkney demand tonight, 23.54 MW, renewable generation 30.66 MW. Yet another night where we are meeting all our demand, and powering Thurso with whats left over!

[Rheghead]

I didn't know that Hunterston B was shut down by wind but I imagine that it was caused by storm damage to the transmission system which prevented its normal output being delivered in its normal way. Windfarms have been paid (£12M so far) to stop generating in high wind and low demand conditions because the connected wind capacity exceeds the transmission capacity under those circumstances and there are plans for more wind capacity but only aspirations for more transmission capacity.

Yes wind farms are entitled to payments in lieu for not supplying energy due to circumstances that are out of their control and seeing as the future nuclear power plants will also be run by private firms then they will also be entitled to enter such agreements but in their case we won't be talking £thousands but £millions due to size. Again, the truth is not in what you say but in what you aren't prepared to say.

[secrets in symmetry]

1. Can you explain how power from the North of Scotland "overtakes" the epower from further south to get to England?That's easy. The wind is stronger in the North of Scotland, so the electricity it produces is stronger (and therefore faster), and it easily overtakes the slow Northern English electricity on its way south to Pinner and Peckham.

[orkneycadian]

So to get the best effect then, all the windfarms should really be built in the North of Scotland and Orkney?

Quality!

[ywindythesecond]

Yes wind farms are entitled to payments in lieu for not supplying energy due to circumstances that are out of their control and seeing as the future nuclear power plants will also be run by private firms then they will also be entitled to enter such agreements but in their case we won't be talking £thousands but £millions due to size. Again, the truth is not in what you say but in what you aren't prepared to say.
I will try again.
The electricity that Limekilns windfarm would generate is targetted at England.
There are not enough wires to take wind electricity from Scotland to England. In England there are already lots of wires to take electricity from English power plants, nuclear gas or otherwise, to customers so if they just carry on doing that with new nuclear and gas etc power stations there will be no reason to pay new English power stations to shut down so English customers can enjoy the privilege of buying overpriced Scottish wind generated electricity which will need billions of pounds spent to get it to them.
What have I missed?
All power companies are private firms.

[bekisman]

1. Average output from wind was 27.18% of metered capacity in 2009, 21.14% in 2010, and 24.08%
between November 2008 and December 2010 inclusive.

(ANALYSIS OF UK WIND POWER GENERATION NOVEMBER 2008 TO DECEMBER 2010 http://www.jmt.org/assets/pdf/Report_Analysis%20UK%20Wind_SYoung.pdf)
It’s a cracking good read!
Ah I see, no wonder; 'RenewableUK' was formerly known as BWEA (British Wind Energy Association).. presumably with a change of name, we might believe 'em more? Nope

I suppose after reading this:
Myth: Tens of thousands of wind turbines will be cluttering the British countryside
Fact: Government legislation requires that by 2010, 10% of electricity supply must come from renewable sources. Wind power is currently the most cost effective renewable energy technology in a position to help do that. Around 3,500 additional modern wind turbines are all that would be needed to deliver 8% of the UK's electricity by 2010, roughly 2,000 onshore and 1,500 offshore.

And not a mention of wee Eckie's plans, but 'spose there wouldn't be, would there?

[Rheghead]

I will try again.
The electricity that Limekilns windfarm would generate is targetted at England.
There are not enough wires to take wind electricity from Scotland to England. In England there are already lots of wires to take electricity from English power plants, nuclear gas or otherwise, to customers so if they just carry on doing that with new nuclear and gas etc power stations there will be no reason to pay new English power stations to shut down so English customers can enjoy the privilege of buying overpriced Scottish wind generated electricity which will need billions of pounds spent to get it to them.
What have I missed?
All power companies are private firms.

OK live in your own little fantasy world if you want to. Any electricity which is generated in Scotland will be for Scotland, once ithey are on the Grid Scottish electrons don't wear kilts to distinguish them from English electrons, you know. Any over capacity goes to England then it comes back during slack times. It is the basis of a super grid that is coming.

The crucial flaw in all your arguments is that we aren't facing a power crisis, we are facing an energy crisis.

[secrets in symmetry]

So to get the best effect then, all the windfarms should really be built in the North of Scotland and Orkney?

Quality!Yes indeed, and contrary to what Rheghead claims, Scottish electrons wear kilts which are blown sky high by those strong north westerlies, thus delighting the Penelopes of Pinner as they gawp at our naked renewables. :eek:

[ywindythesecond]

Yes indeed, and contrary to what Rheghead claims, Scottish electrons wear kilts which are blown sky high by those strong north westerlies, thus delighting the Penelopes of Pinner as they gawp at our naked renewables. :eek:
Disappointed SiS, I thought you were a serious technically informed contributor.

[bekisman]

Goodnes gracious me: "because of considerable impact on views" whatever next!

"A farmer has been ordered to pull down a wind turbine after his retrospective planning application was refused. Perth and Kinross Council have given David Mitchell three months to remove the 20KW turbine at Pairney Farm near Auchterarder.

Planners said it had a "considerable impact" on views of the Strath and Ochils from the A9.Mr Mitchell said the turbine had been erected without permission in order to meet a feed-in tariff deadline.

The turbine would not have qualified if it had been built after June 2011. But Perth and Kinross Council found the impact on the landscape could not be "economically or socially justified". The planning officer also said there was a lack of information with the application.

A report added: "The application fails to comply with the development plan and supplementary planning guidance. Additionally there is a lack of information.

"This provides sufficient weight to warrant refusal of the application."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-16318155

PS windy - I think s-i-s was just being humorous (tiz Christmas after all!)

[ducati]

Goodnes gracious me: "because of considerable impact on views" whatever next!

"A farmer has been ordered to pull down a wind turbine after his retrospective planning application was refused. Perth and Kinross Council have given David Mitchell three months to remove the 20KW turbine at Pairney Farm near Auchterarder.

Planners said it had a "considerable impact" on views of the Strath and Ochils from the A9.Mr Mitchell said the turbine had been erected without permission in order to meet a feed-in tariff deadline.

The turbine would not have qualified if it had been built after June 2011. But Perth and Kinross Council found the impact on the landscape could not be "economically or socially justified". The planning officer also said there was a lack of information with the application.

A report added: "The application fails to comply with the development plan and supplementary planning guidance. Additionally there is a lack of information.

"This provides sufficient weight to warrant refusal of the application."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-16318155



Yep. Lots of rich folk live there. ;)

[secrets in symmetry]

Disappointed SiS, I thought you were a serious technically informed contributor.Lol! You wouldn't understand a word I said if got all technical on you. When's your next schoolboy project due? :cool:

I'm working on solar panels that work at night. How about you?

[ducati]

Lol! You wouldn't understand a word I said if got all technical on you. When's your next schoolboy project due? :cool:

I'm working on solar panels that work at night. How about you?

You'll have a hard time selling them, with reduced or no FIT. :lol:

[secrets in symmetry]

My nocturnal panels will be so good that they'll not need any FIT. Not even in the neighbourhood of places where "bright" is an unknown concept - such as Dunnet. :cool:

I hope you don't live in Dunnet lol!

[ywindythesecond]

I'm working on solar panels that work at night. How about you?
Power to your elbow Sis, but as they say in Lion's Den "I'm out"

[ducati]

Actually I've come up with a device that makes wind turbines look like the are working when it isn't windy.

I think I will have more chance of selling my device.

[secrets in symmetry]

You don't know the secret behind my solar panels that enables them to work at night.

[badger]

Actually I've come up with a device that makes wind turbines look like the are working when it isn't windy.

I think I will have more chance of selling my device.

You mean you've thought of something better than the present system which uses electricity from the grid to keep them turning? Since they can't be kept still for long (safety) you could make a killing.

[bekisman]

You mean you've thought of something better than the present system which uses electricity from the grid to keep them turning? Since they can't be kept still for long (safety) you could make a killing.Hey Badger, thought you might be exagerating there, but it's true!!!

Large wind turbines require a large amount of energy to operate. Other electricity plants generally use their own electricity, and the difference between the amount they generate and the amount delivered to the grid is readily determined. Wind plants, however, use electricity from the grid, which does not appear to be accounted for in their output figures. The manufacturers of large turbines -- for example, Vestas, GE, and NEG Micon -- do not include electricity consumption in the specifications they provide.
Among the wind turbine functions that use electricity are the following:

yaw mechanism (to keep the blade assembly perpendicular to the wind; also to untwist the electrical cables in the tower when necessary) -- the nacelle (turbine housing) and blades together weigh 92 tons on a GE 1.5-MW turbine


blade-pitch control (to keep the rotors spinning at a regular rate)


lights, controllers, communication, sensors, metering, data collection, etc.


heating the blades -- this may require 10%-20% of the turbine's nominal (rated) power


heating and dehumidifying the nacelle -- according to Danish manufacturer Vestas, "power consumption for heating and dehumidification of the nacelle must be expected during periods with increased humidity, low temperatures and low wind speeds"


oil heater, pump, cooler, and filtering system in gearbox


hydraulic brake (to lock the blades in very high wind)


thyristors (to graduate the connection and disconnection between generator and grid) -- 1%-2% of the energy passing through is lost


magnetizing the stator -- the induction generators used in most large grid-connected turbines require a "large" amount of continuous electricity from the grid to actively power the magnetic coils around the asynchronous "cage rotor" that encloses the generator shaft; at the rated wind speeds, it helps keep the rotor speed constant, and as the wind starts blowing it helps start the rotor turning (see next item); in the rated wind speeds, the stator may use power equal to 10% of the turbine's rated capacity, in slower winds possibly much more


using the generator as a motor (to help the blades start to turn when the wind speed is low or, as many suspect, to maintain the illusion that the facility is producing electricity when it is not,‡ particularly during important site tours) -- it seems possible that the grid-magnetized stator must work to help keep the 40-ton blade assembly spinning, along with the gears that increase the blade rpm some 50 times for the generator, not just at cut-in (or for show in even less wind) but at least some of the way up towards the full rated wind speed; it may also be spinning the blades and rotor shaft to prevent warping when there is no wind§


Could it be that at times each turbine consumes more than 50% of its rated capacity in its own operation?! If so, the plant as a whole -- which may produce only 25% of its rated capacity annually -- would be using (for free!) twice as much electricity as it produces and sells. An unlikely situation perhaps, but the industry doesn't publicize any data that proves otherwise; incoming power is apparently not normally recorded.(!!!) [and there's more]:

http://www.aweo.org/windconsumption.html

[almo]

I Take it the only facts used in context in this tread are easily noted by the use of alternating Pink and Green letters. :-)