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Nick Noble
07-Dec-11, 14:15
Does it concern anyone else that the Highland Council has seen fit to hand out Advent Calendar CD's to children at Primary schools with content provided by "Answers in Genesis" an american creationist group?

These CD's were produced in the UK under the aegis of the JAM Trust, and evangelical christian organisation.

RecQuery
07-Dec-11, 14:26
Does it concern anyone else that the Highland Council has seen fit to hand out Advent Calendar CD's to children at Primary schools with content provided by "Answers in Genesis" an american creationist group?

These CD's were produced in the UK under the aegis of the JAM Trust, and evangelical christian organisation.

First I've heard about it, it concerns me immensely.

Kodiak
07-Dec-11, 15:14
No one should make any decision about this until they view it completely. Then once it has been viewed you will be able to come to a conclusion. I know it does not concern me for I have not seen it. This might change if I ever do see it.

Has anyone viewed this Advent CD?

lindsaymcc
07-Dec-11, 16:45
My kids got one, they werent bothered about looking at it, so we havent.

Although on the basis of it being Christmas soon, is it wrong for kids to be given material that I assume explains the reasons behind celebrating Christmas? Perhaps I should watch it first and then comment.

However, from some quick reading of the JAM Trust website, I dont have a problem with them thus far. JAM was obviously set up for the same purpose that the Light Factory is in Thurso for kids in the summer and easter holidays.

sandyr1
07-Dec-11, 16:54
Does it concern anyone else that the Highland Council has seen fit to hand out Advent Calendar CD's to children at Primary schools with content provided by "Answers in Genesis" an american creationist group?
These CD's were produced in the UK under the aegis of the JAM Trust, and evangelical christian organisation.

Arn't you being a little alarmist with your comment..
Perhaps one should make a statement and let those with children in the 'system' decide...I am sure much thought has gone into such an issue....

lindsaymcc
07-Dec-11, 17:00
The JAM (Jesus and Me) Trust is a charitable organisation (OSCR number: SC039855) which was established in Scotland in September 2008.
The purposes of the Trust are the advancement of the Christian Gospel in East Kilbride and its environment.
The background to the trust began in August 2001 when the very first JAM Club was held in Stewartfield. This was a holiday club for local children where they played games, sang songs and learned from the Bible. This was so successful that a weekly JAM Club was organised to take place each Sunday in Stewartfield Community Centre. You can read more about the Jam Club here (http://jamtrust.org/jam-club.html).
The work of JAM expanded into other areas and the JAM Trust was established to further this work.
The Director of the trust is Dr Nagy Iskander, an associate specialist surgeon at Hairmyres hospital, East Kilbride.
If you would like to know more about us or would like to contact us, please use our contact form (http://jamtrust.org/contacts.html)
Our mission statement:
The purposes of the Trust are the advancement of the Christian Gospel in East Kilbride and its environment. To run a non-denominational Christian club for children and young adults in East Kilbride and its environs without any cost or charge, to run the club to help children under the age of 16 years to understand the basics of the Christian faith, to develop a healthy lifestyle with good moral standards and encourage youngsters to develop good citizenship and participate in the community which will be run by volunteers operating a strict child protection policy.


The above is taken directly from the JAM Trust website. I cannot see how this is any different from Light Factory in Thurso.

Had a quick look at the Advent CD, none of it concerns me thus far, but perhaps because I had a christian upbringing, and believe Christmas is a time for celebrating Jesus' birth, then they are the reasons I dont have a problem with it.

If I was a non-believer, would I have a problem? No, why would I? If my children brought home material regarding Diwali would I be offended? No. All faiths have a right to be learnt about and if my child showed an interest, I would do all I can to help them understand and I am all for them making their own decisions. Obviously, I cannot force them into a religion, and would never do so, but they have the right to know that there are other faiths to what I personally believe out there.

Nick Noble
07-Dec-11, 17:05
The content of the cd originates with Answers in genesis, they are an american group.

The about us section of their website (answersingenesis.org) states :


Our Message

Answers in Genesis is an apologetics (i.e., Christianity-defending) ministry, dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith and to proclaim the gospel (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/gospel.asp) of Jesus Christ effectively. We focus (http://www.answersingenesis.org/about/mission) particularly on providing answers to questions surrounding the book of Genesis, as it is the most-attacked book of the Bible. We also desire to train others to develop a biblical worldview, and seek to expose the bankruptcy of evolutionary ideas, and its bedfellow, a “millions of years old” earth (and even older universe).



Now given that the JAM Trust has given out 450000 of these cd's someone has spent lots of money on this. I am sorry but I am too cynical to accept they have done it simply out of generosity.

I would have no issue with a traditional advent calendar, something which is clear cut. But something which contains information from a fundamentalist christian sect is in my view not something that should be given to school pupils willy nilly.

I have no problem whatsoever with the LightFactory, they do a fine job. They are totally upfront about their Christian ethos, and work hard to provide a very valuable resource for children in the holidays.

I wonder if people would be so relaxed if Islamic Jihad were handing out CD's celebrating Eid al fitr?

oldchemist
07-Dec-11, 17:54
Haven't heard of this but it is immensely worrying if it is true. It is bad enough that we brainwash our children with religion at school but this is much more insidious. The creationists are trying to promote a debate between science and religious belief, treating both as competing "theories" to explain how the universe came to be as we see it today. "Belief" is just that - it matters not whether is is the genesis story or the tooth fairy - there is absolutely no evidence to back it up. The scientific description of the universe is based upon sound observation and calculation. Many scientists are also religious so there does not have to be conflict but the creationist movement is anti-science.

Aaldtimer
07-Dec-11, 18:08
Aye oldchemist, and here's the nub..."We also desire to train others to develop a biblical worldview, and seek to expose the bankruptcy of evolutionary ideas, and its bedfellow, a “millions of years old” earth (and even older universe)."

Do we really want our kids exposed to this?[disgust]

Rheghead
07-Dec-11, 18:56
Put it in the bin if you want.

Meanwhile I'm indoctrinating my 4 yr old daughter with the sacred gospels every day just so that she can make an informed choice of what to believe later in life. :roll:

RecQuery
07-Dec-11, 19:32
Christmas is in no way, shape or form Christian, they merely co-opted it - same with Easter. I thought we had this discussion last year.

Also kids are just too young to make any sort of informed choice on stuff like this. We don't expect children to pick a political ideology or even a career track at this point so why religion. As Nick said people wouldn't be so relaxed about it if it was Jihadist or Zionist stuff. I've seen people get all bent out of shape about teaching sexuality and accusing schools of pushing a gay agenda.

Rheghead
07-Dec-11, 19:39
Christmas is in no way, shape or form Christian, they merely co-opted it - same with Easter. I thought we had this discussion last year.

And it is often said that Christmas nowadays is just about commercialisation, well that is true and yet it always has been. In its purest form, the celebration is about seeing longer days as we pass the winter solstice. And from the neolithic period to the late iron age, trade sprung up across Europe which meant people were celebrating the new sun bringing food and wealth.

sandyr1
07-Dec-11, 20:42
Gawd..Some of you will be Raiding all the Hotels and Motels of the World, and throwing away the Gideon Bibles next!!!!

John Little
07-Dec-11, 20:51
This is stuff given out by an American group.

Are they allowed to hand it out in American schools?

changilass
07-Dec-11, 20:52
Gawd..Some of you will be Raiding all the Hotels and Motels of the World, and throwing away the Gideon Bibles next!!!!

Now if they put Terry Pratchett's Discworld books in the bedside cabinet, I would be much more appreciative.

Alrock
07-Dec-11, 21:01
Gawd..Some of you will be Raiding all the Hotels and Motels of the World, and throwing away the Gideon Bibles next!!!!

Nah.... They can come in handy if you run out of skins....

http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs24/f/2008/021/4/c/devil_laghin_by_Scotsgirl_606.gif

redeyedtreefrog
07-Dec-11, 21:08
I read about this in the Hillhead school newsletter.. Any religious material not provided by a neutral organisation being handed out to kids worries me. Especially from Answers in Genesis. Mass emailing of the Highland Council, anyone?

Really, the nativity and all the rest of the Christian mythology should be taught in exactly the same way as, and given no preference over, the just as true mythology of the Greeks and Romans and Norse.

Also, Christmas is far from Christian, it's basically Roman Saturnalia with commercialisation and trees.

Nick Noble
07-Dec-11, 21:17
If anyone wishes to email the council the decision to distribute this via the schools was made by Calum Macsween the Acting Head of Education Services. You can find his email address on the highland Council website.

(Or you could try the usual format email address for the highland council which is firstname.secondname@highland.gov.uk (it works ;) )

John Little
07-Dec-11, 21:24
There's a Calum MacSween in this....

http://www.freekirkcontinuing.co.uk/FCC/Witness_and_Explorer_files/March Witness.pdf


It's a common name though - a different man I should think.

redeyedtreefrog
07-Dec-11, 21:37
There's a Calum MacSween in this....

http://www.freekirkcontinuing.co.uk/FCC/Witness_and_Explorer_files/March Witness.pdf


It's a common name though - a different man I should think.

After reading that, I really despair.. How can anyone actually think like this? The "Obama's Support for Homosexuality" item and the bit about gay minsisters... How can any organisation get away with this kind of disgusting bigotry and not be completely shunned by the civilised world?

John Little
07-Dec-11, 22:03
It's interesting to scroll down on this to the resources links too.


http://www.freechurch.org/index.php/scotland/links/

sandyr1
07-Dec-11, 22:23
Nah.... They can come in handy if you run out of skins....


Q...1. What/who are skins?
Q2..2. Surely if it is being handed out in the Highland School area, someone must have OK'd it.

RecQuery
07-Dec-11, 22:47
Now if they put Terry Pratchett's Discworld books in the bedside cabinet, I would be much more appreciative.

Small Gods would be appropriate and it's one of his standalone works.


Gawd..Some of you will be Raiding all the Hotels and Motels of the World, and throwing away the Gideon Bibles next!!!!

I'd probably just move all the Bibles in a book shop into the fiction section or something.

sandyr1
07-Dec-11, 22:56
Small Gods would be appropriate and it's one of his standalone works.

I'd probably just move all the Bibles in a book shop into the fiction section or something.

In my lifetime and my parents, Religion in Moderation was not to be sneezed at.
It gave some direction of how we run our lives....
I am not Religious, but am not about to 'cast it asunder'...
Methinks somebody, somewhere created something for some reason.

And the Promised Land...I live here!

Dadie
07-Dec-11, 23:18
If you dont like the CD use it to create a centrepiece for your Christmas table...with the kids..
Blue Peter style with pine cones and a candle...then it will at least be useful!
But at least go through it (without the kids) to see if its as as bad as you think.
Some kids dont know the Christmas story/nativity and think Santa is the reason for Christmas.
Is it wrong for kids to know the history in why we celebrate certain markers in the calender, be it Christmas or diwalii?
Isnt understanding about beliefs and understanding about cultures a good thing?

Nick Noble
07-Dec-11, 23:21
In my lifetime and my parents, Religion in Moderation was not to be sneezed at.
It gave some direction of how we run our lives....
I am not Religious, but am not about to 'cast it asunder'...
Methinks somebody, somewhere created something for some reason.

And the Promised Land...I live her!

Sandy

This is not a question of casting religion asunder.

This is questioning whether it is right for the local schools to be distributing CD's which are associated with a group that explicitly state that the bible is the only source of truth, that the notion of a world which dates back a million years is nonsense.

This is as far removed from everyday Christian belief in the UK as a suicide bomber is from an everday muslim going about his or her business in the UK.

Kenn
07-Dec-11, 23:52
What has Genesis got to do with christianity?
It is the 1st book of the bible and relates what was then thought to be the story of creation and belongs to judaism.
Christianity starts with the birth of christ and what went before should have no relevance,

billy5000
07-Dec-11, 23:54
got one just burnt it!
it was designed to look appealing to kids by the jam project!!!

coulnt bear putting it into the dvd player for fear it my mess my dvd player with utter trash:):):)

no really, does anyone know if it plays in a pc and what it might contain (spyware etc?

didnt want that sort of trash near my pc!

sorry but lifes to short to spend it leading your life the way some fictionous weirdo says you should, nor what some brainwashing groomers try and tempt you with, and im in no way happy this was given to my 8yr old without my consent!!!

if you want to follow that fictionous garbage then good for you but dont try and palm rubbish on the rest of us!we get enough junk mail we dont want

secrets in symmetry
08-Dec-11, 00:07
If anyone wishes to email the council the decision to distribute this via the schools was made by Calum Macsween the Acting Head of Education Services. You can find his email address on the highland Council website.

(Or you could try the usual format email address for the highland council which is firstname.secondname@highland.gov.uk (it works ;) )Nick, are you absolutely sure that Calum MacSween made the decision? If so, how did you find out?

I could suggest several ways to help him to reflect on his decision to inflict the unforgivable evil of Satanists (such as the Answers in Genesis people) on Caithness schoolchildren, but I would need to be sure I was helping the right person....

Phill
08-Dec-11, 00:24
If anyone wishes to email the council the decision to distribute this via the schools was made by yadda yadda the Acting Head.....

(Or you could try the usual format email address for the highland council which is barneyrubble@cobblers@nowhere.me.com.dot....uk (firstname.secondname@highland.gov.uk) (it works ;) )Sorry Nick, but your trying to create mass hysteria over a load of nothing.
If you don't like what your kids are seeing or being presented with then take it off them and explain your reasoning why. Simple.

I personally don't like the general bible bashing nonsense my kids get fed via the schools, A because it is biased, B because I think religion is a pile of cobblers and should only be presented in its widest form by unbiased religious education and not by prayer, hymn singing, storytelling or promises of whatever cobblers you want to believe.
But there is no point in me going all full on outraged and demanding it be stopped, better I let them decide for themselves after I have explained my views.

Do you get this concerned about the shite that is pumped through the tellybox that your kids might see, or via the 'web. Or through everyday contact with the world. Or computer games. Or magazines?

With reference to the Gideons / skins bible mentioned already: my son was getting his head filled with religious mumbo jumbo from school and upon finding a bible in our hotel room one night he got quite interested (as he had heard mention of it but never was shown one). So I made him try and read it, he soon binned it and put the tellybox on instead!

oldmarine
08-Dec-11, 01:48
Put it in the bin if you want.

Meanwhile I'm indoctrinating my 4 yr old daughter with the sacred gospels every day just so that she can make an informed choice of what to believe later in life. :roll:
Rheghead: Once again we agree.

billy5000
08-Dec-11, 02:03
When we lived in england(pity) as im english but thats a long winded story)i had my two girls removed from RE ,as i didnt want them wasting thier valuable time taking in drivel!
They were not very happy with the request!(teachers) but they understood! and removed them, but at the same time they made me aware that because of this my daughters would not be included in easter/christmas events/plays/etc...

Id be quite happy with the plays being missed, but you know what kids are like with easter/christmas!
its not about JESUS to them,its about having fun/decorations/presents/etc etc and nothing to do with that JESUS bloke!

it was petty and basically blackmail! , they knew what problems this would cause ,and yes it did have my daughter in tears! untill i went in and told them what would happen if this was the type of thing that id have expect from them!

it soon got sorted and they still got removed from RE(ridiculous education)

I would be much happier if they removed this subject and replaced it with something they can learn a trade from etc!, but this is useless! and dont give me that old chestnut!!

!!!the decline of religeous morals have eroded the social structure of britain crap!!!blar blar blar

sorry but decline would happen eitherway! and its simplier than religeon,its called parenting and lack of justice powers!!oh and human rights

The church is one of the biggest war criminals of all time and is responsible for a great many deaths since this drivel was indoctrinated into small/weak minded people the world over!!
and from witch burning/to shouting heratic because someone doesnt believe in it, then killing them
now we have other stupid religeons causeing just as much trouble (allah etc)

sorry but keep your faith and i hope it fills you with comfort as you lay on your deathbed and realise youve wasted years holding yourself back from things that you wouldnt have normally done (im not talking about sick stuff )thats for the church to hide behind thier doors

theone
08-Dec-11, 02:54
The thing with religious propoganda is.................. As long as you please everyone, it's not a problem!

But God Help You (Do you see what I did there?) if you dismiss anyones idea as nonsense.

If you let the Gideons hand out the bible, why not a creationist DVD?

We live in a country where you're not allowed to vote for parliament until you are 18 years old. One supposes this is because anyone younger is not mature enough to do so with sufficient knowledge or understanding.

Yet we still allow the baptism of newborns. Promising them to a belief system of which they have no understanding. Maybe, just to be fair, we should register babies at birth as Tories/Labour supporters etc etc?

I hope to see a time where choice of religion holds as much political, legal and social credence as choice of favourite colour. But I won't hold my breath.

Aaldtimer
08-Dec-11, 03:44
...Christianity starts with the birth of christ and what went before should have no relevance,

No it didn't! Jesus was born a Jew, and he died a Jew.

Christianity came along much later.:(

sandyr1
08-Dec-11, 05:25
[QUOTE=Nick Noble;911498]Sandy

This is not a question of casting religion asunder.

This is questioning whether it is right for the local schools to be distributing CD's which are associated with a group that explicitly state that the bible is the only source of truth, that the notion of a world which dates back a million years is nonsense.


Yes I see what you mean, but one person suddenly one day decides to give these 'things' out...I highly doubt it. Usually, and I am somewhat familiar with both the UK and Norh American Education Systems. a committee of the School Board makes these decisions usually with great care, especially nowadays...If that process was not followed then you definitely have a Complaint.......But as some people are saying on here, these things, the intro of parts of our lives, lead to our/children's education.
Much worse is being shown on TV with little concern..........And Cheeze don't compare any of this to Suicide Bombers.... Suicide bombers....oh give ur heed a shake NN.....

buzzard
08-Dec-11, 07:54
I also find it difficult to approve of the religious education in the schools here. I grew up in another EU country, which was originally VERY Catholic, but I was not raised with religion (my parents chose not to). In our public schools (20 years ago!), we (well, our parents) had the choice of religious education or another subject to replace it, which was called 'moral philosophy/ethics'. I greatly enjoyed this subject as it did make you think as a child. We learned about human rights, poverty in third world countries, animal rights, racism, pollution, world religions, homosexuality...any topic over which we could have a philosophical discussion really, and everyone was allowed to have their opinion. Now my daughter is 6 and she's having religious education...and no other option... of course we could speak to the school and opt out but what then? As pointed out before she would just have to sit in a classroom on her own I guess?
I have no problem with any religion as such, and I do think my daughter should learn about religions, but I do not think my daughter should be taken to church with school, or be taught how to 'speak to God'. She does not believe in God, as she was not raised that way (though she is free to believe if she would like to). I also think that it's actually not really positive for the group of religious people in her school if she is in that group saying 'I don't really believe in God'... I do think every religion should be respected, but I do think there should be another option in the schools!!! We had the option 20 years ago...it's like the council is stuck in the past...

Nick Noble
08-Dec-11, 09:27
Nick, are you absolutely sure that Calum MacSween made the decision? If so, how did you find out?

I could suggest several ways to help him to reflect on his decision to inflict the unforgivable evil of Satanists (such as the Answers in Genesis people) on Caithness schoolchildren, but I would need to be sure I was helping the right person....

I have read the letter that he sent out authorising distribution and also exchanged emails with Calum, his response whilst accepting responsibility for the decision was not satisfactory as he dismissed the CD as "a fun Christmas quiz with the option of referring to biblical verses".

ducati
08-Dec-11, 10:00
Some very eminent and renowned scientists are theorising that the Universe is so perfect in its make-up, down the quantum level, that the probability of intelligent design is now seen as very high.

The creationists might be on to something after all.

Phill
08-Dec-11, 10:24
it soon got sorted and they still got removed from RE(ridiculous education)

I also find it difficult to approve of the religious education in the schools here.

Maybe I've gotten the wrong interpretation but my understanding of RE is that it teaches about many religious faiths, in my experience, of the major world faiths and their backgrounds / beginnings. It was delivered to me in a fairly unbiased manner and helped me understand very early on why some people did this or wore that etc. etc.

In this respect I believe RE is important as with understanding the faiths of those we live with we can hopefully try and remove some of the ignorant, bigoted hatred we see in our 'civilised' society.

Preaching / teaching the bible, bible lessons etc. is wildly different in my eyes.

Nick Noble
08-Dec-11, 10:41
I personally have absolutely no problem with schools teaching RE, provided that it teaches across faiths and compares the various faiths. To my knowledge that is the case in Highland Council schools.

However when the school gives out material that is connected with a fundamentalist creationist sect that actively and proudly campaigns against science and claims that what is contained in the bible is the literal word of god and therefore infallibly true, then I have a major problem.

As there seems to be some drift away from my original question into more general RE type issues I think it is now right to close the thread. Thanks to all for their thoughts.