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david
17-Nov-11, 12:13
In my opinion, Strathclyde Fire & Rescue should be ashamed in the way this incident was handled. Absolute disgrace.

Phill
17-Nov-11, 19:10
Sadly this is partly due to the litigious and risk averse culture we have created for ourselves.

A frustrating situation in some cases where emergency services have to stand by and wait as their management will not / cannot allow their crews to be placed at any risk.
Cost cutting reduces training budgets and valuable experience isn't gained, especially in cross / multi service scenarios. And that is when communication starts to falter.

david
17-Nov-11, 19:27
Sadly this is partly due to the litigious and risk averse culture we have created for ourselves.

A frustrating situation in some cases where emergency services have to stand by and wait as their management will not / cannot allow their crews to be placed at any risk.
Cost cutting reduces training budgets and valuable experience isn't gained, especially in cross / multi service scenarios. And that is when communication starts to falter.

I understand what your saying however what's the difference from going into a unpredictable house fire and a fairly predictable mine shaft? They did have hours to deal with the latter. The senior officers should be sacked IMHO-this woman need not have died... The other thing is that the FF that went down the shaft came back up on the same equipment that could have affected a rescue. Makes no sense!

bekisman
17-Nov-11, 20:18
The full FAI (Fatal Accident Inquiry) below* but forgive me if I give an outline of what actually happened..

Basically Mrs Hume, fell down a disused mineshaft - she had been there for about 2 and a quarter hours. The Fire Service arrived on scene at 02.27 under command of Watch Commander Christopher Rooney, Mrs Hume was conscious and calling out. At 02.51 the Heavy Rescue Vehicle attended making a total of 18. A Police Officer Sgt Andrew Whittington arrived 03.15.

At 03.16 Fire-Fighter Alexander Dunn, with the approval of Christopher Rooney, donned Safe Working at Height (SWAH) equipment and descended into the hole to asses Mrs Hume's condition, he provided her with blankets and oxygen.

At 03.25 Group Commander Fred Howe took over control from Christopher Rooney, who earlier had taken a decision that a Paramedic from the Scottish Ambulance Service, Martin Galloway - who expressed no difficulty with going into the hole, and had no reservations about doing so - should enter the shaft, using the SWAH equipment to determine Mrs Hume's injuries.

At 04.03 Control of the incident was assumed by Commander Paul Stewart. He had been sent there to manage the media, but on finding he was now the senior officer at the incident, put an immediate stop to Mr Galloway (the Medic) from going in the hole, and ordered the fire-fighters to disengage him from the SWAH harness.

At 04.57 Group Commander Thompson assumed control from Commander Paul Stewart. He had no difficulty with any of the decisions Mr Stewart had made.

Finally at 06.21 Strathclyde Police Mountain Rescue Service set up their equipment and went down, and with the assistance of Fire Fighter Dunn (who had been down there for over three hours) Mrs Hume was brought to the surface at 0742, she suffered cardiac arrest in the course of her retrieval and unfortunately was pronounced dead at 09.30.


Sheriff Desmond J Leslie;
The evidence of Mr Stewart and Mr Thomson was manifest of a fundamentalist observance to the policy defined in the first memorandum without acknowledgment that the second memorandum clearly introduced a degree of flexibility.

The risk assessment carried out by the incident commanders Stewart and Thomson was clearly flawed

There is little doubt that the rank and file fire fighters in attendance were anxious to conduct a rescue as quickly as possible but were prevented from doing so by the superiors.

I acknowledge Mr Alexander Dunn's bravery and selflessness in volunteering to provide succour to Mrs Hume as she lay at the bottom of the collapsed mineshaft.

It has concerned me throughout the Inquiry that the members of Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service who attended the incident on 28 July 2008 were bracketed into two conflicting camps.

On the one hand there were the very experienced and long serving fire-fighters represented by Mr Rooney, Mr Howe, and Mr Dunn, who were anxious to effect a rescue with the equipment available to them; they could not be described as naive or hot blooded in their anxiety to rescue Mrs Hume from the mine shaft.
On the other hand the two senior incident commanders, Mr Stewart and Mr Thomson, had no hesitation in vetoing the use of equipment which they did not consider was specifically designed, or could be adapted to carry out a rescue or the deployment of fire-fighters who had not been specifically trained for a rescue effort of the type that was required.

I found the evidence of Group Commander Paul Stewart, and Group Commander William Thomson, to be focussed on self justification for the action or non-action taken by them and was without any reflection as to the purposes of this Inquiry and the lessons that may be learned from the rescue attempt. I found their evidence to be bullish, if not arrogant, in their determination to justify the subservience of the need to carry out a rescue to the need to fulfil to the letter Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service "Brigade" policy.

Mr Stewart, in particular, considered that the rescue operation was "a success".

Unfortunately this was not a successful operation: a woman died who had not only sustained survivable though life threatening injuries, but who had also ultimately suffered and died from acute hypothermia brought about by a prolonged period down a mine shift in which she had been partially immersed, for a time at least, in water. I consider that the views expressed by Mr Stewart and Mr Thomson were of a fundamentalist adherence to Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service policy.

They rigidly stood by their operational guidelines.

Mr Stewart's evidence, in particular, was self contradictory on a number of matters............
---------------

Sorry about the length of this but my heart goes out to those Fire-Fighters who were initially on the scene and could have rescued Mrs Hume with their own equipment, but were prevented by Senior officers Stewart and Thomson, who were not able to use flexibility in their own interpretation of the 'rules'. Suppose it all boils down to 'following Strathclyde Fire service memorandums' where Commander Stewart's rigid interpretation that this memorandum meant that the SWAH gear could not be used, but it was pointed out in the FAI report that the 27th March memo stated "This guidance does not preclude the use of SWAH equipment to secure any casualty to prevent their further injury or to prevent the deterioration of existing circumstances". basically it was up to a Commanders interpretation.


Having been a Fire-Fighter in WestMids area for 11 years, we were taught to use our initiative, and save life; exactly what those Fire-Fighters tried to do, before being countermanded by a Senior Commander; Stewart who was initially sent to 'control the media'.and supported by Thompson.

These two should hang their heads in shame..

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html

david
17-Nov-11, 20:29
The problem now being that all LocaL Authority Fire Services will be seen in the same light. Imagine if a FF had refused to go down a shaft when ordered to? So wots happening to these two clowns? Not much by the look of. Bekisman-wot would have been wrong with a short extension ladder rescue like we drilled for in the old days! Too simple probably...

bekisman
17-Nov-11, 20:40
The problem now being that all LocaL Authority Fire Services will be seen in the same light. Imagine if a FF had refused to go down a shaft when ordered to? So wots happening to these two clowns? Not much by the look of. Bekisman-wot would have been wrong with a short extension ladder rescue like we drilled for in the old days! Too simple probably...Thought that too - it was 14 metres down, what's wrong with a 13.5 ladder and fire fighters leaning in 19.5 inches? As the report stated those initial blokes were experienced, not hot blooded twats, but were countermanded by jobs worth's who would not have been breaking HSE rules or their own.

It's called a 'Rescue' Service after all..

I don't doubt for one minute that anything will happen to Stewart or Thompson, but those Strathclyde Fire Fighters 'know'...

david
17-Nov-11, 20:44
Thought that too - it was 14 metres down, what's wrong with a 13.5 ladder and fire fighters leaning in 19.5 inches? As the report stated those initial blokes were experienced, not hot blooded twats, but were countermanded by jobs worth's who would not have been breaking HSE rules or their own.

It's called a 'Rescue' Service after all..

I don't doubt for one minute that anything will happen to Stewart or Thompson, but those Strathclyde Fire Fighters 'know'...

That makes it worse! I thought it was 40m down, yeah you could easliy put a 13.5 metre down a hole that size with the manpower that was available-112kg if my memory serves me. Or even a 10.5m with short extension lashed to it. These two should defo be sacked...

theone
17-Nov-11, 21:02
After incidents like this, there's always calls for sackings. But are they the best option?

The people involved were wrong. There's no doubt about it.

But they weren't intentionally wrong. They did what they thought was best. Whether that was by following a rule book or making decisions based on their training, they never deliberately caused the death of the woman.

What should be looked as is the rules these people follow, the training they are given, and the appraisal procedure that got them promoted into positions of authority.

I'm sure the root causes of the incident can be found therein. Sacking somebody for a well intentioned misjudgement won't stop it happening again.

david
17-Nov-11, 21:17
After incidents like this, there's always calls for sackings. But are they the best option?

The people involved were wrong. There's no doubt about it.

But they weren't intentionally wrong. They did what they thought was best. Whether that was by following a rule book or making decisions based on their training, they never deliberately caused the death of the woman.

What should be looked as is the rules these people follow, the training they are given, and the appraisal procedure that got them promoted into positions of authority.

I'm sure the root causes of the incident can be found therein. Sacking somebody for a well intentioned misjudgement won't stop it happening again.

A probationary firefighter could have done a better job than these 2 clowns.

theone
17-Nov-11, 21:24
A probationary firefighter could have done a better job than these 2 clowns.

Maybe so.

And if so, how did they get into a position of power?

The fault seems to be with the system, and if so that needs changed.

Corrie 3
17-Nov-11, 21:27
Where have all the "Real" men gone? A real man on that day would have said stuff H&S, stuff the Commanders, stuff the job...there is a woman down there who is dying and I am going to get her out no matter what!!!!! Where have these man gone? I couldn't live with myself if I were there on that day and let this woman die..........Where have all the "Real" men gone!
Are we only left with Wimps???

Shameful and totally unnecessary in my opinion!

C3.................[disgust][disgust][disgust]

david
17-Nov-11, 21:48
Maybe so.

And if so, how did they get into a position of power?

The fault seems to be with the system, and if so that needs changed.

They got their positions by passing exams. When I was in the job, there were plenty of folks who could pass the exams but their fireground ability was questionable, not all I might add. I understand that nowadays the "practical" side of the exam is non fire incident based!!

Phill
17-Nov-11, 21:49
There are a couple of other background issues with this case that concern me.

Why did they wait so long for the Police MRT? (Are there perceived issues with 'volunteer' services? (I doubt that would be publicly aired)).

And, how much interference is there from Unions with regards to payments for training and equipment classifications?

theone
17-Nov-11, 21:58
They got their positions by passing exams. When I was in the job, there were plenty of folks who could pass the exams but their fireground ability was questionable, not all I might add. I understand that nowadays the "practical" side of the exam is non fire incident based!!

So there's the problem.

The promotion/assessment system is wrong.

Sacking somebody because they were promoted to a position above their ability is not the answer.

Phill
17-Nov-11, 21:59
Where have all the "Real" men gone? A real man on that day would have said stuff H&S, stuff the Commanders, stuff the job..
As with many services today, there is a degree of professionalism where you do as your told, even when you don't like it.
Mavericks can, and do, put their colleagues at risk as well as themselves.

County Fire Brigades are incredibly regimented, a good thing in some respects but very bad for top down management on the fireground.
But, you can't have people going off and doing what they think is best, it has to be a team effort led by people with the skills, experience and freedom from court hanging if what they do is with competence and good intent.

theone
17-Nov-11, 22:07
As with many services today, there is a degree of professionalism where you do as your told, even when you don't like it.
Mavericks can, and do, put their colleagues at risk as well as themselves.

County Fire Brigades are incredibly regimented, a good thing in some respects but very bad for top down management on the fireground.
But, you can't have people going off and doing what they think is best, it has to be a team effort led by people with the skills, experience and freedom from court hanging if what they do is with competence and good intent.

Great post.

Discipline is necessary in any emergency organisation. Emotion and a lack of self control can lead to more trouble than good.

If the woman had died because an overly keen fireman fell down the hole on top of her where would we be? Same situation, just blaming someone else.

If a fireman had become paralysed or was killed during the rescue, who would his wife blame?

This culture of 'no accidents' we have inherited/developed has a lot to answer for. Where there's blame there's a claim............

david
17-Nov-11, 22:13
So there's the problem.

The promotion/assessment system is wrong.

Sacking somebody because they were promoted to a position above their ability is not the answer.

So we just let these two off then to continue enjoying their inflated salarys then? And what of the next incident they are in charge of?

Corrie 3
17-Nov-11, 22:25
Great post.

Discipline is necessary in any emergency organisation. Emotion and a lack of self control can lead to more trouble than good.

If the woman had died because an overly keen fireman fell down the hole on top of her where would we be? Same situation, just blaming someone else.

If a fireman had become paralysed or was killed during the rescue, who would his wife blame?

This culture of 'no accidents' we have inherited/developed has a lot to answer for. Where there's blame there's a claim............
So everyone does loads of handwringing and head scratching and let's the Woman die? Brilliant !!! Well done to the lot of them !!!
I hope everyone who attended this incident hangs their head in shame for a very long while, selfish wimps the lot of them!!

C3............:mad::mad:

theone
17-Nov-11, 22:38
So everyone does loads of handwringing and head scratching and let's the Woman die? Brilliant !!! Well done to the lot of them !!!
I hope everyone who attended this incident hangs their head in shame for a very long while, selfish wimps the lot of them!!

C3............:mad::mad:

Not what I said, and not what I meant.

And you know it.

Phill
17-Nov-11, 22:40
So everyone does loads of handwringing and head scratching and let's the Woman die? Brilliant !!! Well done to the lot of them !!!
I hope everyone who attended this incident hangs their head in shame for a very long while, selfish wimps the lot of them!!


Hmm, trolling now methinks.
I do not believe that anyone expected or foresaw the outcome of this poor lady dying. I also believe that everyone there, including the senior officers / commanders, wanted a happy ending.
I believe to try and apportion blame you really need to look far and wide, there are some legacy issues to deal with.

Don't forget, we're sat here in our warm comfy armchairs with full hindsight and a raft of information available to us. Not out at silly o'clock in the morning trying to work this one out.

Corrie 3
17-Nov-11, 22:54
Hmm, trolling now methinks.
I do not believe that anyone expected or foresaw the outcome of this poor lady dying. I also believe that everyone there, including the senior officers / commanders, wanted a happy ending.
I believe to try and apportion blame you really need to look far and wide, there are some legacy issues to deal with.

Don't forget, we're sat here in our warm comfy armchairs with full hindsight and a raft of information available to us. Not out at silly o'clock in the morning trying to work this one out.
No Trolling on my part Phill, I am just angry and amazed that this can happen because of incompetence and worry over litigation! I am so glad non of these people who attended this incident were not out in Afghanistan where the British soldier puts his own life in danger to save others. I just cannot understand the mentality here, a Woman is dying down a hole, get down there and get her out alive...end of!!!
Shame and more shame!!
C3............[disgust]

david
17-Nov-11, 23:09
No Trolling on my part Phill, I am just angry and amazed that this can happen because of incompetence and worry over litigation! I am so glad non of these people who attended this incident were not out in Afghanistan where the British soldier puts his own life in danger to save others. I just cannot understand the mentality here, a Woman is dying down a hole, get down there and get her out alive...end of!!!
Shame and more shame!!
C3............[disgust]

Not often that I agree with you Corrie, but on this I do.

theone
17-Nov-11, 23:12
No Trolling on my part Phill, I am just angry and amazed that this can happen because of incompetence and worry over litigation! I am so glad non of these people who attended this incident were not out in Afghanistan where the British soldier puts his own life in danger to save others. I just cannot understand the mentality here, a Woman is dying down a hole, get down there and get her out alive...end of!!!
Shame and more shame!!
C3............[disgust]

You are totally contradicting yourself.

You demand shame on the individuals, calling them wimps and claiming incompetence.

Then you blame worry over litigation!!!! It sounds like you demand people break the rules.

People either play by the rules or they don't. Sometimes it will be right decision, sometimes it won't. That is the split second decision they must make.

I'll ask again.



If the woman had died because an overly keen fireman fell down the hole on top of her where would we be? Same situation, just blaming someone else.

If a fireman had become paralysed or was killed during the rescue, who would his wife blame?

This culture of 'no accidents' we have inherited/developed has a lot to answer for. Where there's blame there's a claim............

So if people are threatened with losing their jobs, homes, livelihoods etc can you not forgive them for thinking twice?

david
17-Nov-11, 23:17
You are totally contradicting yourself.

You demand shame on the individuals, calling them wimps and claiming incompetence.

Then you blame worry over litigation!!!! It sounds like you demand people break the rules.

People either play by the rules or they don't. Sometimes it will be right decision, sometimes it won't. That is the split second decision they must make.

I'll ask again.


So if people are threatened with losing their jobs, homes, livelihoods etc can you not forgive them for thinking twice?

Hardly a split second decision-the SF&RS were there for hours. The operational firefighters were quite willing to lose their livelihoods but were denied that opportunity.

bekisman
17-Nov-11, 23:21
After incidents like this, there's always calls for sackings. But are they the best option?

The people involved were wrong. There's no doubt about it.

But they weren't intentionally wrong. They did what they thought was best. Whether that was by following a rule book or making decisions based on their training, they never deliberately caused the death of the woman.

What should be looked as is the rules these people follow, the training they are given, and the appraisal procedure that got them promoted into positions of authority.

I'm sure the root causes of the incident can be found therein. Sacking somebody for a well intentioned misjudgement won't stop it happening again."following a rule book or making decisions based on their training"

I'm not sure if you've ploughed through the full FAI Inquiry: http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html but in my own interpretation, the Sheriff was stating that the 'rule' book of the second memorandum would have allowed the harness to be used..

I do agree with another poster that some Fire Officers have managed to reach seniority with very little fireground experience - I knew a couple of these 'Paper Chasers' when I was in, who, although brilliant in theoretical knowledge and a session at Moreton in Marsh knew it all, but couldn't tie a running bowline. We never felt safe with them around.

There was very little (if any) possibility of the shaft caving in, this officer, ostensibly sent to 'control the media' was aware a Fire-fighter had already been lowered down the shaft by means of a line thrown over a prone telegraph pole, the fire-fighter in the hole was able to report that nothing was falling in the shaft, the shaft was not hundreds of feet deep, they could all hear the plaintive cry of Mrs Hume, lying in agony..

Fire-fighters take risks every day, the 18 fire-fighters [not overly keen] who were there before Stewart arrived where very experienced, and knew what they were doing, the one who went down (like the others) was trained in the use of SWAH, unfortunately if Stewart had been held up on his mission to the incident that woman could well be alive.

It's all fine and dandy to say But... and scream Heath and Safety, but bottom line; get that woman out asp, it's the fire-fighters job for heaven's sake..
For the Sheriff to state that both Stewart and Thomson were "bullish, if not arrogant in their determination to justify their subservience" tells us a lot from someone who has no axe to grind..

david
17-Nov-11, 23:30
[QUOTE=bekisman;905060]"following a rule book or making decisions based on their training"

I'm not sure if you've ploughed through the full FAI Inquiry: http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html but in my own interpretation, the Sheriff was stating that the 'rule' book of the second memorandum would have allowed the harness to be used..

I do agree with another poster that some Fire Officers have managed to reach seniority with very little fireground experience - I knew a couple of these 'Paper Chasers' when I was in, who, although brilliant in theoretical knowledge and a session at Moreton in Marsh knew it all, but couldn't tie a running bowline. We never felt safe with them around.

There was very little (if any) possibility of the shaft caving in, this officer, ostensibly sent to 'control the media' was aware a Fire-fighter had already been lowered down the shaft by means of a line thrown over a prone telegraph pole, the fire-fighter in the hole was able to report that nothing was falling in the shaft, the shaft was not hundreds of feet deep, they could all hear the plaintive cry of Mrs Hume, lying in agony..

Fire-fighters take risks every day, the 18 fire-fighters [not overly keen] who were there before Stewart arrived where very experienced, and knew what they were doing, the one who went down (like the others) was trained in the use of SWAH, unfortunately if Stewart had been held up on his mission to the incident that woman could well be alive.

It's all fine and dandy to say But... and scream Heath and Safety, but bottom line; get that woman out asp, it's the fire-fighters job for heaven's sake..
For the Sheriff to state that both Stewart and Thomson were "bullish, if not arrogant in their determination to justify their subservience" tells us a lot from someone who has no axe to grind..

Totally agree-and the very virtue of this being a mine shaft would have meant that there was a negligible risk of it collapsing having been used for access to horizontal mine excavations for years. The news just stated that SF&RS have apologised.

theone
17-Nov-11, 23:42
I'm not sure if you've ploughed through the full FAI Inquiry: http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html but in my own interpretation, the Sheriff was stating that the 'rule' book of the second memorandum would have allowed the harness to be used..


The judge had the benefit of months to explore the rule books by the letter.

The guys on the scene never.

If the guys at the scene never had the knowledge, or abilty, to meet the demands of these books they shouldn't have been in their position.



It's all fine and dandy to say But... and scream Heath and Safety, but bottom line; get that woman out asp, it's the fire-fighters job for heaven's sake..

I don't disagree.

That's the old school attitude we share.

I recently attended a 5 day MERT course where one of the Canadian delegates had been sued for a five figure sum after breaking the ribs of a guy he worked with.

He was giving CPR to the guy who's heart had stopped.........

david
17-Nov-11, 23:50
The judge had the benefit of months to explore the rule books by the letter.

The guys on the scene never.

If the guys at the scene never had the knowledge, or abilty, to meet the demands of these books they shouldn't have been in their position.



I don't disagree.

That's the old school attitude we share.

I recently attended a 5 day MERT course where one of the Canadian delegates had been sued for a five figure sum after breaking the ribs of a guy he worked with.

He was giving CPR to the guy who's heart had stopped.........


The guys on the scene had hours to get this poor women out alive and well and no doubt would have if they had not been impaired by management who had had sight of these memos but failed to interperet them properlly. It's not the operational firefighters who should now be facing the sack but the senior officers involved-like I said if one of the firefighters had refused to go down the shaft, you can guarantee they would now be facing a possible loss of employment.

Phill
18-Nov-11, 00:43
I'm amazed that the brigade didn't have access to the appropriate kit and training to get down 40-50ft within couple of hours. I'm amazed that a suitable stretcher couldn't have been sourced to extricate her in a couple of hours (forget using the harness).
OK, so the commanders left their common sense at home and stuck to the rulebook. But, if they tried something and it failed, they would be hung out to dry. As would any FF or paramedic, this is OUR fault. By virtue of people now calling for heads to roll.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Thin end of the wedge: A FF friend was a pump driver and was en route to a house fire, he encountered a narrow road (cars either side, parked half on half off pavement). Being the first pump he decided to make the best attempt to get through as there was no alternative without loosing many minutes of time. Two cars lost their wing mirrors, owners complained and he got hung out to dry, ended up with points on his licence.

In today H&S, legal minded world. If you do not follow the rules 100%, it's your fault or partly your fault. No matter what your intentions.

The rules need changing.
The unions need to consider that it is public money that is being argued over, and that is there ultimately to assist the public.
Budgets need changing and authorities, councils & government should back powers to allow those at the sharp end to request all and anything they think they need to save life. Throw everything at it and cancel it if you don't need it.

bekisman
18-Nov-11, 09:16
16th Nov: Scotland's largest fire service has not apologised for procedural failings which contributed to the death of a woman who fell down in a mineshaft
18th nov: Strathclyde Fire and Rescue has apologised over the death of a woman who fell down a mineshaft in Ayrshire. Following Mr Salmond's announcement, chief officer of Strathclyde Fire & Rescue Brian Sweeney said: "Yesterday, Strathclyde Fire & Rescue received Sheriff Leslie's determination regarding the FAI into the death of Alison Hume.
"The report was more than 90 pages long and we are now taking the time to fully digest all that it has to say."
At least Salmond is doing an inquiry, 'might' get a result...
As an aside, I think it's pretty obvious that operational Fire-Fighters have a different mindset to others..


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15776931

Corrie 3
18-Nov-11, 11:06
You are totally contradicting yourself.

You demand shame on the individuals, calling them wimps and claiming incompetence.

Then you blame worry over litigation!!!! It sounds like you demand people break the rules.

People either play by the rules or they don't. Sometimes it will be right decision, sometimes it won't. That is the split second decision they must make.

I'll ask again.


So if people are threatened with losing their jobs, homes, livelihoods etc can you not forgive them for thinking twice?
I am not contradicting myself at all, I was brought up to believe that if someone is in danger of losing their life then it is my moral duty to help them live!!!! I would have no hesitation in putting my own life in danger to save a stranger from dying. Any consequences of my actions can be dealt with afterwards but at least I would be able to sleep easy knowing I did my best. Yes I do demand that people break rules to save a life if necessary, rules, and the people who make them are not always right are they and next time it could be me or one of my Family that need rescuing and I would hope that someone had the guts to break the rules to save me!!!? And just a thought.....In the hours that everyone there spent scratching their heads and bums could they not have called in RAF rescue and winched the Woman out?

C3............[disgust][disgust]

david
18-Nov-11, 11:23
I'm amazed that the brigade didn't have access to the appropriate kit and training to get down 40-50ft within couple of hours. I'm amazed that a suitable stretcher couldn't have been sourced to extricate her in a couple of hours (forget using the harness).
OK, so the commanders left their common sense at home and stuck to the rulebook. But, if they tried something and it failed, they would be hung out to dry. As would any FF or paramedic, this is OUR fault. By virtue of people now calling for heads to roll.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Thin end of the wedge: A FF friend was a pump driver and was en route to a house fire, he encountered a narrow road (cars either side, parked half on half off pavement). Being the first pump he decided to make the best attempt to get through as there was no alternative without loosing many minutes of time. Two cars lost their wing mirrors, owners complained and he got hung out to dry, ended up with points on his licence.

In today H&S, legal minded world. If you do not follow the rules 100%, it's your fault or partly your fault. No matter what your intentions.

The rules need changing.
The unions need to consider that it is public money that is being argued over, and that is there ultimately to assist the public.
Budgets need changing and authorities, councils & government should back powers to allow those at the sharp end to request all and anything they think they need to save life. Throw everything at it and cancel it if you don't need it.





They most certainely did have the equipment available to get this woman out, even a basic water tender has a short extension ladder and a tested 60m line. They could quite easily improvised a stretcher from this. This was a well practised drill when I was in the fire service

bekisman
18-Nov-11, 21:10
Phill: "I'm amazed that a suitable stretcher couldn't have been sourced to extricate her in a couple of hours (forget using the harness)"

'By the time of Mr Stewart's attendance at the locus a team of Fire Fighters had harnessed themselves using SWAH equipment and had assembled by the shaft to attempt a rescue; they had an immobilising stretcher ready which could be deployed to bring Mrs Hume to the surface horizontally and securely. Mr Stewart instructed that the hole be quarantined immediately, that Mr Galloway and the fire fighters should disharness, and that all personnel, including the fire fighters who were preparing for a rescue attempt, should be withdrawn to a safe distance from the hole.'

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html (http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html)

shazzap
18-Nov-11, 21:13
I saw this on the news. It's health & safety gone mad. I really feel for her family. RIP.

bekisman
18-Nov-11, 21:18
Corrie 3
At 3.01am a call was made by Paisley Ambulance Control to the Aeronautical Rescue Control Centre for assistance with the provision of search or flood lighting from a helicopter. This was declined. He was advised that Strathclyde Mountain rescue Team would be contacted but that the use of a helicopter in the rescue was not considered to be appropriate. I was not given a specific reason for this but assumed that there were environmental obstacles and dangers to the helicopter and crew inherent in the descent of a winchman into a deep hole in the ground

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html (http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html)

david
18-Nov-11, 23:07
And looking at the size of the hole-8mx6m. hardly a hard area to work in.

bekisman
18-Nov-11, 23:24
And looking at the size of the hole-8mx6m. hardly a hard area to work in.I know it's the Daily Mail, but the photograph gives an indication of how close an HT line (to the right) was to the hole, I think this was the concern of winchmen..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2063005/Alison-Hume-fatal-accident-inquiry-So-did-rules-crush-kindness.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

secrets in symmetry
19-Nov-11, 00:35
A fireman on TV last night was seeking sympathy from the public for being upset that they'd failed to save the victim. I think his head must have been so far up his own backside that it had reappeared out of his neck!

bekisman
19-Nov-11, 00:50
A fireman on TV last night was seeking sympathy from the public for being upset that they'd failed to save the victim. I think his head must have been so far up his own backside that it had reappeared out of his neck!A post we've come to expect from you s-i-s.
Obviously being a young office lad, you'd have no understanding of what an 'operational fire fighter' would feel in this situation, but then as you're merely trolling, I'll leave you to sharpen your pencils..

Phill
19-Nov-11, 16:04
Phill: "I'm amazed that a suitable stretcher couldn't have been sourced to extricate her in a couple of hours (forget using the harness)"

'By the time of Mr Stewart's attendance at the locus a team of Fire Fighters had harnessed themselves using SWAH equipment and had assembled by the shaft to attempt a rescue; they had an immobilising stretcher ready which could be deployed to bring Mrs Hume to the surface horizontally and securely. Mr Stewart instructed that the hole be quarantined immediately, that Mr Galloway and the fire fighters should disharness, and that all personnel, including the fire fighters who were preparing for a rescue attempt, should be withdrawn to a safe distance from the hole.'

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html (http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011FAI51.html)

I've not had chance yet to read the full FAI. I did read somewhere (can't find link now) that they were waiting on the Police MRT to bring a specialist stretcher as well as other kit. As I said I was amazed at that as most, if not all, brigades have ERU's which can bring all sorts of stuff.
The order to dis-harness seems odd to me, not exactly dynamic.

Phill
19-Nov-11, 16:07
I saw this on the news. It's health & safety gone mad. I really feel for her family. RIP.
It's not just H&S gone mad. There is a bigger picture here as there are other contributory factors, seldom in these situation is the outcome down to a single factor. Referred to elsewhere as the 'cheese holes' lining up.

secrets in symmetry
19-Nov-11, 16:10
It's not just H&S gone mad. There is a bigger picture here as there are other contributory factors, seldom in these situation is the outcome down to a single factor. Referred to elsewhere as the 'cheese holes' lining up.Yes, in this case, the H&S hole lined up with the weak leadership hole and the poor judgement hole, but what really made me sick was the fireman appearing on TV and playing the victim....