Nuclear war?

[John Little]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/02/us-heading-war-iran-obama

I have never understood why we could accept that Pakistan, China, India etc could all have nuclear weapons and that was ok.

But Iran may or may not be going for them.

So why invade them and say 'naughty boys - no nukes for you' ?


What I do know is that any attempt to involve this nation in yet another war without us being attacked or threatened will have me out in the streets protesting - yes even at my age.

What are these people on?

[gleeber]

I really hope its just sabre rattling. Theres still a long way to go in human civilisation before we learn to conduct our affairs in peace, if indeed that is possible? Anything could happen.
On the other hand some of the rhetoric that comes our of Iran shows its an active partner in the art of international paranoia. Im happier they havnt got nuclear weapons.

[billmoseley]

i fear the whole world is sliding slowly but surely to war on a massive scale. there is so much unrest going on and the euro crisis is already turning countries against each other. i hope i'm wrong but i fear the worst

[pig whisperer]

governments try to keep us in a 'state of fear' climate change, war, collapse of the money markets, break down of society. life does go on, the ride is just a bit bumpy at times.

[oldmarine]

i fear the whole world is sliding slowly but surely to war on a massive scale. there is so much unrest going on and the euro crisis is already turning countries against each other. i hope i'm wrong but i fear the worst
Bill: I have to agree with you. I was in the Pacific during WW2 when we dropped the 2 A-bombs on Japan. At that time I thought it was a good idea because it got the war over faster and allowed me to get home after battling the Japanese troops for 35 months. However, since then I have watched various countries scrambling to get an over whelming array of nuclear weapon for the purpose of being among the strongest nations with that type of weaponry. I now wonder whether my country made a wise choice.

[roadbowler]

I really hope its just sabre rattling. Theres still a long way to go in human civilisation before we learn to conduct our affairs in peace, if indeed that is possible? Anything could happen.On the other hand some of the rhetoric that comes our of Iran shows its an active partner in the art of international paranoia. Im happier they havnt got nuclear weapons.Well, Costa Rica manages to conduct their affairs in peace and has no standing army. I would be happier if nobody had nuclear weapons and unfortunately, as one of the worlds worst aggressors in recent times we may be our own worst enemy.

[weezer 316]

Nukes are awful things. If they start flying about you just hope the first one lands on you.

I would like to see them scrapped entirely.

[John Little]

Agreed. As Bradley said 'They are not weapons. They are instruments of genocide."

But why we should have them yet object to anyone else having them is so hypocritical as to be beyond my understanding.

[ducati]

Agreed. As Bradley said 'They are not weapons. They are instruments of genocide."

But why we should have them yet object to anyone else having them is so hypocritical as to be beyond my understanding.

I agree except where Iran is concerned. I believe, and it may be wrong, that they have such a hatred of, well, us, that they would use the first bomb that rolled off the line before the paint dried. So on that basis, I would not only support the govenment 'doing something about it' I would insist they do.

And anyway the Israelis will regardless of what anyone else thinks.

[secrets in symmetry]

Wee Fat Shrek has missed a trick. If he wants to walk the international stage as King of an independent Scotland, he should model his Republic on Israel rather than Ireland (broke), Iceland (also broke) or Norway (too hilly and with weather that's even worse than ours).

Israel (hot and sunny, and not too hilly) has a population of about 7.4 million, which is only about 50% higher than ours. We have the arrogance and the (potential) aggression (according to the poppy brigade) to compete with the Israelis on both fronts. Let's go for it Shrek!

[Rheghead]

We may discuss whether nuclear weapons are good or bad but before we had nukes we were fiscally crippled due to having an extremely large naval presence on the world, in the the 1960s there was a big change that allowed us to dramatically reduce our defence spending because of the fact that we had nukes.

[John Little]

I agree except where Iran is concerned. I believe, and it may be wrong, that they have such a hatred of, well, us, that they would use the first bomb that rolled off the line before the paint dried. So on that basis, I would not only support the govenment 'doing something about it' I would insist they do.

And anyway the Israelis will regardless of what anyone else thinks.

'They'.

All of them? I doubt that the entire population of Iran hates us.

And considering that we invaded them during WW2 and occupied them for 5 years then connived with the USA at overthrowing their government in 1953, enabling the imposition of a tyrant on them, I can well see why they might be wary of us.

As far as they are concerned it is we who are the nutters.

[John Little]

We may discuss whether nuclear weapons are good or bad but before we had nukes we were fiscally crippled due to having an extremely large naval presence on the world, in the the 1960s there was a big change that allowed us to dramatically reduce our defence spending because of the fact that we had nukes.


Ummmm - not quite.

We were fiscally crippled because we ended WW2 with income of £1800 million and outgoings of £2200 million. The drain on our resources was not due solely to our navy but to our army and airforce and the expense of running a world wide empire and the vast civil service needed in each colony.

Which is why we started scaling down defence and everything else in the 1950s.
By April 1956 Harold MacMillan reported to the Cabinet that we could not afford to invade Egypt to retake the Suez Canal - but then we did it anyway; which plunged us into the red for the next generation.

So after that disaster Duncan Sandys produced his white paper bringing in the most wide-sweeping cuts ever to hit the armed forces.

But it was not predicated by a switch to nuclear - we could not afford to develop an H bomb. Although we announced to the world that we had the H bomb in 1957 it was not true- our H bomb was two A bombs set off in tandem.

So it was a bluff that allowed us to reduce our spending - and plain necessity.

Harold MacMillan met Eisenhower in Jan 1957 and Eisenhower agreed to supply us with the Polaris missiles then being developed for which he had to repeal the McMahon Act; it was in US interests to help us maintain an image at least of being a great power. But it tied us firmly to US policy for us to do so; the agreement was not made public until 1962. To show our loyalty we participated in the US invasion of Lebanon in 1958 and invaded Jordan on our own account.

That is no longer true and we should follow our own line - especially over Dr Strangelove stuff like this Iran business.

[ducati]

'They'.

All of them? I doubt that the entire population of Iran hates us.

And considering that we invaded them during WW2 and occupied them for 5 years then connived with the USA at overthrowing their government in 1953, enabling the imposition of a tyrant on them, I can well see why they might be wary of us.

As far as they are concerned it is we who are the nutters.

It seems to me that none of that matters, if the threat is real then a response is required. Half the world has good reason to be very cross with us.

[John Little]

What threat is that?

A real one.

Or the one in our paranoid "leaders'" heads?

[littleted]

Agincourt 25th oct 1415 (saint crispins day)
HENDRY V speaks ..
THIS MAKES ROYAL FELLOWSHIP OF DEATH
WHERE IS THE NUMBER OF WHICH
MY MUST MAKE FOR OUR GALENT LAND SAFE
DO WE ALL HER HOLY WRITES AND:lol:
GO FORTH AND SING
non nobis domine

[ducati]

What threat is that?

A real one.

Or the one in our paranoid "leaders'" heads?

How would you like to be responsible for making the wrong assumption?

And we are not talking about Nuclear war are we? But a couple of air strikes, and like I said, the Israelis will handle it without waiting for our glorious leaders or the UN to make a decision.

[bekisman]

We've had these discussions many times; just had a look at http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?99790-Iran-escalating&highlight=Israelis (Feb 2010) interesting to note that many of the posters are banned, or no longer post.. 'cept Ducati and me I suppose..
But my own personal opinion is Iran is very dangerous .. the usual quote: "Ahmadinejad was reported as saying: "Israel must be wiped off the map." but because of a misquote he actually said: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.".. makes him a hero of the Arab world I suppose..

But hey lets kick the Nuclear proliferation treaty into touch and let Syria have the right to develop nukes..

What's the problem?, Israeli Mission Statement (number 4) 'Striking targets deep inside enemy territory' so won't be too long before they'll be over there using conventional .. Think they have c200 nuke warheads if push comes to shove?
Of course I'm just a common or garden bod really, not one of the chattering classes I suppose...

So I'll fade away

[John Little]

You are not just a common or garden bod - your opinion carries great weight with me and with others- as I trust you know well.

The point for me is that no-one gave us the 'right' to have nuclear weapons. And no-one gave us the right not to have them.

Given our past relations with Iran I can see why they do not like us.

There is also only one nation which has used nuclear weapons in anger and has been made very clear since, part of the reason was to scare the bejasus out of the Russians and dominate outcomes in the post war world.


Take an analogy. The Hittite empire grew because they had iron swords we are told and all the rest had bronze.
The Hittite empire fell when the others learned how to make iron.

Technological advance is nothing new in warfare; by what 'right' to we forbid the Iranians to have A bombs any more than we forbid them to have cannon?

Is it because we don't like them and they don't like us?

Because that is so, then the only 'right' we have is that might is on our side. And if that is so, would you, as an Iranian, wish to even it up a bit.

As to what Israel does or does not do, I care not. I do not like or approve what they do in the West Bank. I do know that we should not allow our armed forces to be killed for someone else's interests for dubious reasons.

The Iranians say they are not developing a bomb- which may or may not be true.

Our leaders say that they are. But there again they've said that before. Remember WMD in Iraq?

[ducati]

You are not just a common or garden bod - your opinion carries great weight with me and with others- as I trust you know well.

The point for me is that no-one gave us the 'right' to have nuclear weapons. And no-one gave us the right not to have them.

Given our past relations with Iran I can see why they do not like us.

There is also only one nation which has used nuclear weapons in anger and has been made very clear since, part of the reason was to scare the bejasus out of the Russians and dominate outcomes in the post war world.


Take an analogy. The Hittite empire grew because they had iron swords we are told and all the rest had bronze.
The Hittite empire fell when the others learned how to make iron.

Technological advance is nothing new in warfare; by what 'right' to we forbid the Iranians to have A bombs any more than we forbid them to have cannon?

Is it because we don't like them and they don't like us?

Because that is so, then the only 'right' we have is that might is on our side. And if that is so, would you, as an Iranian, wish to even it up a bit.

As to what Israel does or does not do, I care not. I do not like or approve what they do in the West Bank. I do know that we should not allow our armed forces to be killed for someone else's interests for dubious reasons.

The Iranians say they are not developing a bomb- which may or may not be true.

Our leaders say that they are. But there again they've said that before. Remember WMD in Iraq?

Well, only time will tell, but if I was an Iranian Nuclear Physicist, I might be thinking of pulling a 'sickie' right about now. :eek: