EU referendum

[weezer 316]

I must admit I am absolutely amazed there is really even a small minority of right wing madmen against EU membership, yet alone up to 100 MP's. Can someone explain why you would wish to pull us out of the EU? I think by just about any criteria it has been a staggering success thus far, Greek and Irish meltdown not withstanding!

[shazzap]

I signed this petition.
Laws should be made closest to the people they affect.
The un- elected bureaucrats of the EU now make British laws. These laws are not debated in the British Parliament. They are not in the best interests of the British people.

[weezer 316]

Well why? Like I said, by any measure you wish to place, its been a stupendous success!

[secrets in symmetry]

I must admit I am absolutely amazed there is really even a small minority of right wing madmen against EU membership, yet alone up to 100 MP's. Can someone explain why you would wish to pull us out of the EU? I think by just about any criteria it has been a staggering success thus far, Greek and Irish meltdown not withstanding!Hey weezy, don't forget the left wing madmen, and the Democratic Unionist madmen.

I suggest we reserve a tranche of Southern England (because that's where most of them have their constituencies) where all the left or right wing Little Englanders can have their own independent state. The right wingers can practise their free trade without being bound by EU rules, and the left wingers can practise their severely restrictive trade without being bound by EU rules, and all will live happily ever after.

[shazzap]

I don't understand a lot about politics, but. I do know what i feel/think is right/wrong.

What does my stance make me. SIS?????????

[RecQuery]

I must admit I am absolutely amazed there is really even a small minority of right wing madmen against EU membership, yet alone up to 100 MP's. Can someone explain why you would wish to pull us out of the EU? I think by just about any criteria it has been a staggering success thus far, Greek and Irish meltdown not withstanding! It's mainly just ultra rightwing back bench MPs or UKIP and BNP crazies, it has no hope of passing so I think a lot of the support is just pandering to their vocal constituents as they can be seen to do something without having to worry about it passing. When a council or government agency uses "Europe" as the reason for an unpopular decision that doesn't help either. People seem to forget about the good that Europe does, I suspect it's a provincial imperial attitude with not-invented-here thrown in. As for parts of it being unelected well chunks of the UK government are also and it's just the same to me as an MP elected with less than 50% of the vote and we have lots of those.

[weezer 316]

I mist say i have attempted to dig into it but you end up being hit with a load of lies. One person on the radio a few weeks ago said its just a massive beauraracy that never done anything to benefit the british public. I then go and read and realise the staff of the entire EU is smaller than the BBC! For an entire contintent wide body thats pretty darn good of you ask me!

I mean, honestly, what, form the neighsayers on here, is the argument for getting ou of the EU?

[John Little]

I'm am not a naysayer but it seems to me that the urge for self-determination may have something to do with it...

[RecQuery]

The thing is that Europe is already fairly hands-off and relatively small. There's a perception that they aren't though. Saying that there's a few reforms I'd like to see, but they may not come as with all adult politics compromise is key. Looking at the anti-Europe people one can't help but notice that they tend to be of the older generations.

[weezer 316]

I signed this petition.
Laws should be made closest to the people they affect.
The un- elected bureaucrats of the EU now make British laws. These laws are not debated in the British Parliament. They are not in the best interests of the British people.

Sorry shazzap when I looked at first it oly had the first line!

Its really only one level above westminster, and even then they are like 80 odd british MEP's. So britain is definetly represented and they are elected. Unliek say the House of lords.

What would be in the interests of the british people? 4 weeks holiday? The french being slapped down and forced to resume british beef imports after trying to ban it (I believe the US still has a ban in place)? The right to healthcare in any EU country? Freedom of movement? Lower prices from pan-eu competition (mobile phones being probably the best example)

Im not sure local laws are really relevant at all. You usually find that legal process is then held to ransom by powerful local interests.


I agree recQuery, older generation seem to be alot more anti-europe than ours. I mean if nothing else, one of the European coal and steel unions original aims was to integrate the economies of Europe so much that war would be impossible. Its acheived that for sure!

And if your a fan of the Premiership and want out the EU, then I have a shock for you......

[shazzap]

I added it weezer, to give an example. There are many other reasons, i have for a resounding no vote from me. Didn't the Human Rights Act come from them. Which now gives criminals, more rights then the victim. Also means that nearly everyone entering Britain is entitled to stay. I know that if a referendum, does come about. I will be voting to get out.

[RecQuery]

I added it weezer, to give an example. There are many other reasons, i have for a resounding no vote from me. Didn't the Human Rights Act come from them. Which now gives criminals, more rights then the victim. Also means that nearly everyone entering Britain is entitled to stay. I know that if a referendum, does come about. I will be voting to get out. It says no such thing. I can't believe people argue against human rights it's like a turkey arguing for Christmas. It says that you can't be vindictive and unreasonably punish someone; justice is supposed to be cold logical and unemotional after all.Honestly I really wish people would do some research and stop believing tabloid rags and political talking heads.

[shazzap]

It says no such thing. I can't believe people argue against human rights it's like a turkey arguing for Christmas. It says that you can't be vindictive and unreasonably punish someone; justice is supposed to be cold logical and unemotional after all.Honestly I really wish people would do some research and stop believing tabloid rags and political talking heads.

It also says.

Freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and freedom to express your beliefs

And i am exercising mine.

Also i do not read tabloid rags.

[weezer 316]

Yes you are, and that kinda back up our point about it the human rights legislation! I would be interested to see where you got this info rather than from tabloid rags. Could you furnish us with a source?

Doesnt all the benefits its brought somewhat outweight that point about asylum seekers (even though its false) or shuold our national interest on everything from trade to holidaying in Europe be held hostage so we can throw EU nationals out?

[shazzap]

W316. I was being sarcastic. I use the internet, and look at all the information available to me. Not just the bits i like. I then try to come to an informed choice. Can i ask where you get your information

But i maintain, i have a right to think what i want to. And within reason and the law, act as i wish to.

[RecQuery]

Yes you are, and that kinda back up our point about it the human rights legislation! I would be interested to see where you got this info rather than from tabloid rags. Could you furnish us with a source?Doesnt all the benefits its brought somewhat outweight that point about asylum seekers (even though its false) or shuold our national interest on everything from trade to holidaying in Europe be held hostage so we can throw EU nationals out? I'm not a big fan of unregulated immigration either. Other western European countries have managed to better control immigration. There's an argument to be made that perhaps local industries and businesses shouldn't hire cheap immigrant labour then perhaps fewer would come. To clarify I support immigration where we have a skills shortage but I'd want there to be a training programme for locals. It's worthwhile being mindful that recruitment companies and businesses will say there's a skill shortage when a lot of the time there isn't one.

[Phill]

Spending my working hours dealing with the fun and games that the EU regulations spew out and seeing their effect on the UK, I have to say we need to renegotiate our position to one of a trading partner (or similar) rather than full member.
In my mind, the question of the UK's (and in particular Scotland's) membership of the EU is a far higher gamble than Scottish independence. (Scotland (according to Wee Eck) would be giving Westminster the boot only to hand power to Brussels)

My advice, stick with the Union. Renegotiate our EU membership. Focus more on buying, building, exporting UK goods & services.

[theone]

I'm not a big fan of unregulated immigration either. Other western European countries have managed to better control immigration. .................... To clarify I support immigration where we have a skills shortage

I think there's a distinction between EU and non-EU immigration. Part of the EU free trade agreement is founded on the principle of free movement. I would imagine it benefits Britain as a whole.

As for non-EU immigration, I think one of the reasons other countries have managed to control it better than us is because many immigrants don't WANT to stay elsewhere in the EU. They head to Britain where they believe they will be better off. When a Somali lands in Dover from Calais claiming asylum from persecution in Somali, the question should be asked what persecution was he suffering in France?

I totally support immigration for skill shortages that Britain has, Doctors, nurses etc. That said, we should be investigating and rectifying the root cause of these shortages at home.


I have to say we need to renegotiate our position to one of a trading partner (or similar) rather than full member.


I think that's not a bad idea, and one which would probably be popular with most. A pure trade agreement with no governance.


(Scotland (according to Wee Eck) would be giving Westminster the boot only to hand power to Brussels)


Part of the hypocrisy of the nationalists that never ceases to amaze.

[RecQuery]

Pity we couldn't make asylum retroactive to the place you first entered Europe. There are a few things I'd like to renegotiate, but they're mostly Scottish things Westminster gave away as bargaining chips, fishing rights etc. Over regulation can be bad but then again so can under regulation. Also the EU is far less oppressive than Westminster from a nationalist perspective and an independent Scotland may not join, I just like Europe The way I see it someone who thinks the EU is too oppressive should sympathise with independence movements.

[theone]

Pity we couldn't make asylum retroactive to the place you first entered Europe.

I don't even think that's necessary.

The UK border agency should simply dismiss claims of religious persecution etc from non-EU migrants who have travelled through non-oppressive countries to get here.

And we could tighten up rules to make the UK less desireable for non-skilled migrants. No benefits or voting rights to those who have not been a citizen for less than 16/18 years to begin with?

[RecQuery]

I don't even think that's necessary.The UK border agency should simply dismiss claims of religious persecution etc from non-EU migrants who have travelled through non-oppressive countries to get here.And we could tighten up rules to make the UK less desireable for non-skilled migrants. No benefits or voting rights to those who have not been a citizen for less than 16/18 years to begin with?Sounds like a good idea, as for slowing internal EU migration I think the Dutch and other countries do things that are not technically allowed. I sympathise with migrants but if they all move to the same locations then they become crappy. It's annoying that you can't seriously discuss immigration in parliament without being labelled a racist.

[theone]

Sounds like a good idea, as for slowing internal EU migration I think the Dutch and other countries do things that are not technically allowed.

I think EU rules prevent you from treating immigrants differently from residents. There are ways around this.

As I suggested, change the "you must be 16 years old to get unemployment benefits" to "you must be a UK citizen for 16 years to get benefits" would be one way.


It's annoying that you can't seriously discuss immigration in parliament without being labelled a racist.

I think that's why the BNP get as many votes as they do. It's not that all their voters are racist, some are people making a "protest vote" because the rest are too scared to approach the issue.

[Phill]

It is a thread drift now, but to follow that drift. The immigration issue is one of the problems with the EU as I see it, and we shouldn't be forced to accept anyone that has traipsed across Europe (and possibly halfway round the world) to get here without very good reason.
And yes, we've done the immigration debate to death on here. But what I said a while ago still stands:

http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?84733-Should-the-EU-welcome-more-refugees&p=589363#post589363

[weezer 316]

Phil,

So immigration and EU rules (could you give a few examples?) seem to b the bugbear. Im interested to see if that really does outweigh in your head all the benefits of being an EU member, all things considered?
Fr

[secrets in symmetry]

EU rules can be very silly, as anyone who's dealt with major European funding will probably agree. But people are trying to make them more sensible, and some day they may be much more so....