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shazzap
15-Oct-11, 23:22
What is your stance on this one.

http://news.aol.co.uk/uk-news/story/majority-back-scottish-independence/1948426/?ncid=webmail1

golach
15-Oct-11, 23:29
As long as Shrek is in charge here is one who does not want it

theone
15-Oct-11, 23:33
The independence debate has been done to death on here.

"My stance" on the article is two fold.

Firstly, I rarely believe these polls

and,

I also wonder why the SNP don't just bite the bullet and hold the referendum.

One question I do have, if the vote is "No", how long should it be until another referendum is allowed?

ywindythesecond
15-Oct-11, 23:37
What is your stance on this one.

http://news.aol.co.uk/uk-news/story/majority-back-scottish-independence/1948426/?ncid=webmail1

I dont have a stance so far. I can't find what the question was.

ducati
15-Oct-11, 23:41
I would ask where in Scotland the pole was conducted. If it was in Edinburgh I would not believe the result. The population of Edinburgh is about 20% Scots and the rest are Australian :lol:

golach
16-Oct-11, 09:47
I would ask where in Scotland the pole was conducted. If it was in Edinburgh I would not believe the result. The population of Edinburgh is about 20% Scots and the rest are Australian :lol:
We in Auld Reekie are multi cultured, The Oz sheilas pulling pints in bars are becoming fewer, they are being replaced by bonny Eastern European lassies, we have a beeg Italian community also, oh aye we have sooooo many Italian Restaurants to choose from. Every corner shop is owned and staffed by nationals from the Indian sub continent. Many of our bus drivers are Polish I could go on and on, but I better mention the Canadian community too.
Beware Eck and his policies I suspect his party are going to change the voting age for the Referendum to 16 years old, that way they will be assured of getting their evil way. Dinna say I didna warn you.

Corrie 3
16-Oct-11, 11:04
Bring it on!!!
C3

Duncansby
16-Oct-11, 11:25
If I'd been asked this question 5 years ago I'd have said keep the Union as I thought we're stronger together (although in my heart I'd want to see an Independent Scotland). Now I'm not so sure and I'm open to persusian. Although I don't agree with all the SNP decisions (but then that's true of any party) on the whole I think they've been good for Scotland. Especially now when you consider the fact we have a Government in Westminster which is completely unrepresentative of the political will of Scotland.

linnie612
16-Oct-11, 20:45
Put an 'ad' in the poll-takers name on this one

Whitewater
16-Oct-11, 22:17
I think England should be the same as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and also have its own government, and keep the union under one Federal government. That system works well with the American and Australian states.
But as someone has already said this subject has been hammered out many times already on the Org.

RecQuery
17-Oct-11, 08:26
Oh for crying out loud, not this thread again...


I'm in favour of full independence, though depending on the construction of a federal system I'd also support that. Failing that I'd settle for more financial control.
In fairness, that particular poll had a very small sample size so it's not necessary indicative of anything.
Is it really constructive to decide political issues on how you think the leaders looks.
Perhaps they aren't holding the referendum yet because it's a complicated issue requiring much thought and debate.

On a side note I notice a lot of complaints about the Scottish government planning to lower the voting age to 16.

shazzap
17-Oct-11, 10:39
Oh for crying out loud, not this thread again...

I'm in favour of full independence, though depending on the construction of a federal system I'd also support that. Failing that I'd settle for more financial control.
In fairness, that particular poll had a very small sample size so it's not necessary indicative of anything.
Is it really constructive to decide political issues on how you think the leaders looks.
Perhaps they aren't holding the referendum yet because it's a complicated issue requiring much thought and debate.
On a side note I notice a lot of complaints about the Scottish government planning to lower the voting age to 16.

Hasn't everything, been done to death, on here.

mi16
17-Oct-11, 12:52
An independand Scotland, no, no and thrice no
An independant Great Britian, yes I think that would be fine with me.

RecQuery
17-Oct-11, 13:10
An independand Scotland, no, no and thrice no
An independant Great Britian, yes I think that would be fine with me.

I take it you're referring to Europe? How is that different from wanting independence for parts of the UK, I often laugh when those who are anti-Europe throw around arguments and then complain when the same arguments are thrown back at then by parts of the UK that want to be independent.

mi16
17-Oct-11, 17:52
I am not making any such arguments, merely passing my opinion that great britian should remain as is and that we should (as a nation) pull out of Europe.
Currently we pay tens of millions per day to be part of Europe only to be dictated to by Brussels, oh yes and also bailing out the plate smashers.
its time the trigger was pulled

tonkatojo
17-Oct-11, 18:34
An independand Scotland, no, no and thrice no
An independant Great Britian, yes I think that would be fine with me.

You get my vote without reservations.

RecQuery
17-Oct-11, 19:58
I am not making any such arguments, merely passing my opinion that great britian should remain as is and that we should (as a nation) pull out of Europe.
Currently we pay tens of millions per day to be part of Europe only to be dictated to by Brussels, oh yes and also bailing out the plate smashers.
its time the trigger was pulled

Oh the irony is exquisite, compounded by the fact that can't see it.

Nothing exists in a vacuum don't bail out parts of Europe see what happens to the banks, not the I care they should have failed and been nationalised back in 2008. Though it will also damaged British business.

I wonder if these people who want to pull out of Europe realise how much that will damage trade and business again.

Anyway so let me get this straight: If you're say, 487 miles from the seat of your government, they're your traditional local nice men who're proudly overseeing your life. If they're 597 miles away though, they're evil unelected bureaucrats running on the gravy train and just looking out for weird people who speak a slightly different language than you do.

mi16
17-Oct-11, 22:47
What has logistics got to do with it?
Great Britian should be governed by the British not Brussels.

When do we call time on handing the Greeks hundreds of million Euros? what do they bring to the party anyway besides Olives and broken plates?
They should be removed from the eurozone and fed to the dogs

bluechesse
21-Oct-11, 00:23
mi16 for Prime Minister! Most sensible thing I have heard in ages!

theone
21-Oct-11, 05:10
What has logistics got to do with it?
Great Britian should be governed by the British not Brussels.

When do we call time on handing the Greeks hundreds of million Euros? what do they bring to the party anyway besides Olives and broken plates?
They should be removed from the eurozone and fed to the dogs

Be careful, the EU and the Eurozone are two separate things.

Kenn
21-Oct-11, 11:34
Of biggest concern to me is how would Scotland be financially viable if there was a yes vote?
With such a small population and an aging one this requires some serious thought.
The constant gripe that the country should be in receipt of the revenues from oil and gas found around it's shores shows a lack of understanding of the current system and the changes that would be needed to effect such a policy.
What appears to be happening is a flow of mis-information to support what is a nothing less than a pipe dream by certain sections of the political heirarchy.
Scots have a unique history,great strength of charcter and a definite identity but going it alone ?
Would any referendum be only for those who reside within the country or for all native scots regardless of where they live, should any non scots residents not be allowed to vote?
Just a few points to chew over!

Duncansby
21-Oct-11, 13:36
Of biggest concern to me is how would Scotland be financially viable if there was a yes vote?
With such a small population and an aging one this requires some serious thought.
The constant gripe that the country should be in receipt of the revenues from oil and gas found around it's shores shows a lack of understanding of the current system and the changes that would be needed to effect such a policy.
What appears to be happening is a flow of mis-information to support what is a nothing less than a pipe dream by certain sections of the political heirarchy.
Scots have a unique history,great strength of charcter and a definite identity but going it alone ?
Would any referendum be only for those who reside within the country or for all native scots regardless of where they live, should any non scots residents not be allowed to vote?
Just a few points to chew over!

I would hope that those resident in the country, irrespective of place of birth, would be entitled to vote. What right have Scots living outwith the country have to dictate how Scotland is governed - they don't live here the outcome wouldn't affect them.

oldmarine
22-Oct-11, 00:37
Of biggest concern to me is how would Scotland be financially viable if there was a yes vote?
With such a small population and an aging one this requires some serious thought.
The constant gripe that the country should be in receipt of the revenues from oil and gas found around it's shores shows a lack of understanding of the current system and the changes that would be needed to effect such a policy.
What appears to be happening is a flow of mis-information to support what is a nothing less than a pipe dream by certain sections of the political heirarchy.
Scots have a unique history,great strength of charcter and a definite identity but going it alone ?
Would any referendum be only for those who reside within the country or for all native scots regardless of where they live, should any non scots residents not be allowed to vote?
Just a few points to chew over!
Liz makes a good point here. Mis-information can cause problems. Scots do have a good history with strength of character and a definite idenity. Would they make it alone without the rest of GB?

RecQuery
22-Oct-11, 13:10
I'm preparing myself for propoganda the likes of which I have never seen, even worse than all the NO2AV stuff, I hope they go full negative actually it seems to be their default tactic. Yeah Scotland can't support itself financially(!)...

Cameron: Quickly BP give me all the oil money... it was supposed to run out in (1970, 1980 1990, 2000) 2010 after all. Not that I'm proposing a reliance on oil it's just one of the many resources and products have.

Resources found around Scotland evidently aren't Scottish, by that argument could Scotland get a share of resources found in England were independence to be voted for. Also Scotland is a net exporter or a lot of things to the rest of the UK, Europe and the world. From energy to food to resources.

As for who should be allowed to vote I would say anyone currently classed as normally resident in Scotland, I mean seriously that argument is so asinine. What have we done for all previous referendums or votes.

Basically all these strawman arguments and red herrings are designed to try and muddy the waters.

tonkatojo
22-Oct-11, 15:11
I would hope that those resident in the country, irrespective of place of birth, would be entitled to vote. What right have Scots living outwith the country have to dictate how Scotland is governed - they don't live here the outcome wouldn't affect them.

Someone should have a word with a certain Sir Sean Connery he dictates policy with any one who listens and visits a few days a year.

theone
22-Oct-11, 18:31
Basically all these strawman arguments and red herrings are designed to try and muddy the waters.

These work both ways, and are thrown around from all sides!

theone
22-Oct-11, 18:32
Someone should have a word with a certain Sir Sean Connery he dictates policy with any one who listens and visits a few days a year.

And Lulu, and Annie Lennox............

ducati
22-Oct-11, 18:42
Well any business person I have spoken to thinks Independence will be bad for business. If it's bad for business it's bad for the economy. If the world investors are in the state they are in now (and there is no reason to suppose they won't be in 5 years time), then I think an Independent Scotland will dive down the plughole faster than a very fast plughole diving fast thing.:eek:

mi16
24-Oct-11, 11:33
I think an Independent Scotland will dive down the plughole faster than a very fast plughole diving fast thing.:eek:

Here's hoping!!

RecQuery
24-Oct-11, 12:46
One really does wonder: If Scotland is such a drain, contributing nothing then why the fight to keep it part of the UK. It certainly isn't out of any altruism given current policies. It's funny really Westminster has always complained about how some parts of the UK are scroungers, then when it gets a chance to ease it's burden it doesn't want to. Perhaps the lady doth protest too much. Anecdotal evidence is just that, the businesses I've talked to support independence, but when did we start deciding policy solely on what businesses think.

theone
24-Oct-11, 22:16
One really does wonder: If Scotland is such a drain, contributing nothing then why the fight to keep it part of the UK. It certainly isn't out of any altruism given current policies. It's funny really Westminster has always complained about how some parts of the UK are scroungers, then when it gets a chance to ease it's burden it doesn't want to.

It's really not as simple as that though, is it? It's not all about financial balance sheets.

The same Westminster government that wants to keep the UK also wants to keep the EU.

Britain, Germany, France, Holland, Austria (to name but a few) put more money into the EU than they take out. Belgium, Ireland, Spain etc take more out than they pay in.

It's not about cutting off the poorer elements or the drain, it's about standing together, as a collective stronger than the sum of their constituent parts.

Restlessnative
25-Oct-11, 10:25
If Scotland doesn't vote for independence I'm moving abroad that's not a joke. We are Scottish and completely different in every way from people south of the border. Have a look at the party seats won at the last general election. There are to different countries heading in to completely different directions. Scottish people have far stronger ties with Celtic and Scandinavian politics so we should be aloud to do what we want rather than being used to prop up a non-sustainable Britain as we have been for hundreds of years.

Commore
25-Oct-11, 11:07
I am all for independence, my parents cringe when I say this, but nevertheless, this is how I feel.

I think SNP are the only leaders we in Scotland have had good reason to listen to in a very long time.
I despair for my english cousins, under the leadership of the present government, whereby there is revolt in many ways amongst their own parties, with the Prime Minister's head everywhere but in his own country,
The coalition in my opinion, the laughing stock of the world.

Alex Salmond, disliked by many at least is a man with vision which is more than can be said for those puppets down in Westminster, following bad governing, successive failures in almost everything they do, whilst retaining the riches offered by Scotland to keep their heads from sinking in the sand.

When Scotland (and it will) becomes independent, where will our english government be without the revenue brought by all Scottish natural resources?

I am repeatedly rebuked by members of my own family for my thoughts on "things best left to the politicians", however, it is my belief that I am not alone in my beliefs, that one day Scotland will become independent, it will sustain itself, it will be an important little country in the eyes of the world and everyone who is anyone will wish to conduct it's business with Scottish people, on Scotland's terms.
:) laugh at me if you wish, but I don't think that day is too far into the future that I won't see it become a reality.

ducati
06-Nov-11, 23:02
If Scotland doesn't vote for independence I'm moving abroad that's not a joke. We are Scottish and completely different in every way from people south of the border. Have a look at the party seats won at the last general election. There are to different countries heading in to completely different directions. Scottish people have far stronger ties with Celtic and Scandinavian politics so we should be aloud to do what we want rather than being used to prop up a non-sustainable Britain as we have been for hundreds of years.

Here's a thought. I, like all of you, have paid tax and NI to the UK Gov. Shortly I will be claiming the small state pension, after the vote. If we go independent the Scots Gov presumably will be paying it out without having the historical benefit of collecting the contributions. How will that work?

porshiepoo
07-Nov-11, 00:05
If Scotland would be a stronger, wealthier and more prosperous country due to independence then I would vote yes.
However (always gonna be a however huh) my concern is that the people who are politically pushing for independence are rascist numpties who are not doing it for the benefit of Scotland as a country but for the benefit of those 'older generations' (eek) who still harbour that grudge against 'The English' as a people (as opposed England as a country. Yes there's a difference) that was drummed into them by their forefathers. A grudge/hatred (call it what you will) that has survived generation after generation and passed like a baton to the next sibling and wielded like an olympic torch, determined to keep that flame burning.

Scots are a proud people, there's no denying that. They are proud of their heritage which just happens to be shoved down our throats daily via TV doccumentaries with titles such as 'Scots who discovered....', 'Scots who saved........' 'Scots who walked with Jesus (OK maybe not that one but you get my drift) and via dailys with names such as 'The Scottish Sun' (as opposed the English sun? :confused) and the constant battle cry of 'Independence for the Scots' (Even though Scotland has a high percentage of what they would class as 'incomers' but all with a right to vote). Blimey even Lidl has to say 'Lidl Scotland' :confused, it's just stupid.
Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with pride for your country. I have it too, as do my family - we are all proud to be British and we only notice these things because England doesn't feel the need to constantly boost the moral of what appears to be an inferiority complex. Lidl is just 'lidl', 'The Sun' is simply that, 'BBC' is simply that and doccumentaries are more likely to begin with 'Brits who....'
I suspect that this pride, which teters on the edge of hatred of all things English, is what drives this desire for independence. I'm not suggesting everyone thinks like that but I do believe the political groups pushing for independence certainly DO feel like that.
And if that is what really motivates for this independence then IMO Scotlands best interests are not being cared for and Scotland and Scottish residents deserve better than that.

If it can be proved that Scotland can prosper as an independent country and will become a stronger nation because of it then go for it!
If Scotland can survive outside the EU when many of its member states account for much of Scotlands exports, then let's go for it!
If Scottish residents are prepared to join EFTA (hardly a prosperous thought) and opt out of the EU then push, push push!
If Scotland can prosper without it's biggest export market, England then let's give it a go!
If national debt can be taken care of and if armed forces can be worked out then why not go for it!

If, if, if. It ain't gonna happen people but IF it did I hope to god it's not the numpties on the Scottish podium at the moment that are left running the country. Not because I'm English but because I honestly do not believe that they give one hoot about a prosperous Scotland.

nightowl
07-Nov-11, 14:49
Here's a thought. I, like all of you, have paid tax and NI to the UK Gov. Shortly I will be claiming the small state pension, after the vote. If we go independent the Scots Gov presumably will be paying it out without having the historical benefit of collecting the contributions. How will that work?

I expect it would work the same way as it did when the State Pension originally came into being. There was no historical building up of contributions then.
The workers deductions paid for the OAP pensions at that time, and that is how it has worked ever since. We do not store up our own contributions, they are paid over immediately to fund the current State Pension, so we can only hope that there are enough working taxpayers when it comes to our turn.:(

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Lold.htm

John Little
07-Nov-11, 14:52
If you read your link again you will see that the original old age pension was not contributory but paid for out of tax.

gerry4
07-Nov-11, 14:59
I would hope that those resident in the country, irrespective of place of birth, would be entitled to vote. What right have Scots living outwith the country have to dictate how Scotland is governed - they don't live here the outcome wouldn't affect them.

One sunday the FM said that it would be everyone on the electoral roll just like any other election. There is a lot of disinformation coming from the unionist parties.

gerry4
07-Nov-11, 15:06
If it can be proved that Scotland can prosper as an independent country and will become a stronger nation because of it then go for it!


have a read of this report http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/scotland-12288-union-public

Most economists agree that Scotland would be able to cope 'without the English subsidy' but would England survive without Scotland's. btw I was born in England and most of my family live there and so no way can i be called racists

nightowl
07-Nov-11, 15:16
If you read your link again you will see that the original old age pension was not contributory but paid for out of tax.

That's what I meant, the pension was paid mainly with monies raised from the taxpayers of that time.
Today, is there a pot of money saved by taxpayers over the years, to pay for current pensions?
If there is, where is it and who looks after it? I always assumed, maybe wrongly, that today's pensions were paid by today's taxpayer.

ducati
07-Nov-11, 15:44
That's what I meant, the pension was paid mainly with monies raised from the taxpayers of that time.
Today, is there a pot of money saved by taxpayers over the years, to pay for current pensions?
If there is, where is it and who looks after it? I always assumed, maybe wrongly, that today's pensions were paid by today's taxpayer.

You are right, but my concern is that the NI you pay now buys you entitlement to a pension (and other benefits) so if these were purchased from the UK, how will they be paid by the Scots? This is just one of the miriad complicated issues that will need to be dealt with immediately. The number of administrators needed to do all this will be mind boggling. My feeling is it won't be possible and the whole thing will decend into chaos.

oldmarine
07-Nov-11, 16:21
What has logistics got to do with it?
Great Britian should be governed by the British not Brussels.

When do we call time on handing the Greeks hundreds of million Euros? what do they bring to the party anyway besides Olives and broken plates?
They should be removed from the eurozone and fed to the dogs
Being a USA citizen I feel unqualified to vote on this one; however, I feel the same way as the poster of this statement: mi16.

weezer 316
07-Nov-11, 16:22
This has been done to death but here I go again anyway

The reality of the Scottish fiscal position (god knows what would happen after the oil runs out) isnt to great, but I am sure with some juggling the gap could be closed. The point is what is in your interests. This is why nationalism is flawed, as it asserts a perceived identity as being some sort of reason to do something when in reality it isnt.

So, could someone please let me know what divides us so much we should go it alone. Here is my list of what unites us:

Fought 2 world (and countless other) wars together
Shared culture (from Music to the development of football on these shores)
Shared language
Larger voice in the world united with England, with ability to use the combined weight of 60m people to push our interests
Just what percentage of scots live south of the border? And vice versa? I would gamble its higher than just about any 2 states in the US.
Both live on the same bit of rock
Long shared history

Now if anyone tries to tell me nationalism, and in some cases just outright prejudice against england for no reason other than small mindedness, outweighs that than I say your mad.

So, again could someone please let me know what divides us so much we should go it alone?

ducati
07-Nov-11, 18:04
And why only England? We would be seperating from Wales and Northern Ireland too. Not to mention the rest of the British Commonwealth.

gerry4
07-Nov-11, 18:19
why the commonwealth? we would still be a member of that.

ducati
07-Nov-11, 18:33
why the commonwealth? we would still be a member of that.

Would we? You have to apply for membership, meet strict criteria, there are no guarantees. Wee Eck might object to British in the title and not apply. :lol:

weezer 316
07-Nov-11, 19:03
Very true.

We would be a goldfish living next to a shark. A few sharks actually, with Germany a particlarly big one with nasty lookin teeth. but france, england Italy and spain would be just as bad as each other. Oh and even smaller countries like the netherlands would have for more economic clout than us.

Ever wonder why these smaller countries are almost always (bar norway and the swiss) very pro european? I am sure its nothign to do with the seucity of eing part of a much larger economy.

We would have independence in name only.

gerry4
07-Nov-11, 19:07
yes as we will keep the queen as head. That is SNP policy

gerry4
07-Nov-11, 19:09
Very true.

We would be a goldfish living next to a shark. A few sharks actually, with Germany a particlarly big one with nasty lookin teeth. but france, england Italy and spain would be just as bad as each other. Oh and even smaller countries like the netherlands would have for more economic clout than us.



'England' don't you mean UK. Wales & N.Ireland are not becoming independent at the same time.

Restlessnative
07-Nov-11, 20:44
Hands up if you think the UK is going down the plughole because of the decisions made in London? Would you rather go down as part of the Britain or go it alone as a Independent country?

First chance we've been given in 300 odd years so I think it shouldn't be sniffed at.

Look at a map of the UK showing parliament seats, it shows the clear divide of two countries.

I'm not anti English they can come and spend there holiday money when ever they like :D

ducati
07-Nov-11, 21:05
Hands up if you think the UK is going down the plughole because of the decisions made in London? Would you rather go down as part of the Britain or go it alone as a Independent country?

First chance we've been given in 300 odd years so I think it shouldn't be sniffed at.

Look at a map of the UK showing parliament seats, it shows the clear divide of two countries.

I'm not anti English they can come and spend there holiday money when ever they like :D

My hand's firmly down, I think we would be going down the plughole if anyone else was making the decisions in London.:lol:

ducati
07-Nov-11, 21:08
yes as we will keep the queen as head. That is SNP policy

As far as I know that ain't one of the criteria.

Restlessnative
07-Nov-11, 21:51
Aye your probably right there, but even with conservatives/lib-dem government were still going down the plughole.

The place is so PC, to a point of madness, folk can't even wear poppies for remembrance Sunday... that's backward and unsustainable. Do you think that would happen in an Independent Scotland? I would like to think not.

Perhaps the press have blown the poppy thing out of all proportion I'm not sure, but it's not the way forward.

weezer 316
07-Nov-11, 22:05
Sorry native but are you seriously proposing that as an argument? Remember poppies are for BRITISH war dead, not just scottish.

Furthermore, we will go down the plughole wih labour in charge, as it was them who spent a fortune we didnt have, wasnt it? Correct me if I am wrong, but havent Labour had the majority fo scottish votes since about the year 1? By that very reasonable reasoning, WE are the ones driving us down the plughole!

Leanne
07-Nov-11, 22:08
FWIW the paternal side of my family are German and we were freed by WW2. Why would Germans be upset by the poppy? Only Nazis would be upset - not general German nationals.

Restlessnative
07-Nov-11, 22:24
No no I'm not proposing it in anyway as an argument, I'm asking a question?? What do you think?

And yes I know it's a REMEMBRANCE for British folk that died for a good cause, of which many were Scottish, we should aloud to celebrate it without causing offence.

Yes Scotland has always voted for Labour for running Britain that's true, but look at who we vote for running our own country??? It's two different things voting for a Government that will never take you seriously or voting for running your own country. Or am I wrong?

Leanne
07-Nov-11, 22:30
And yes I know it's a REMEMBRANCE for British folk that died for a good cause, of which many were Scottish, we should aloud to celebrate it without causing offence.

No, it's remembrance for any lives lost during any wars. Be that German, British, French (it was the French poppy fields), US, Gherkas etc... It just started with the end of WW2...

gerry4
07-Nov-11, 22:30
show me where people can't wear a poppy? the only place this PC thing is pushed is in the likes of the Sun or the Mail both rags, that would not know the truth even if they fell over it

gerry4
07-Nov-11, 22:32
No, it's remembrance for any lives lost during any wars. Be that German, British, French (it was the French poppy fields), US, Gherkas etc... It just started with the end of WW2...
i am sure it is typo but it WWI, Poppy Scotland was founded in 1921, http://www.poppyscotland.org.uk/index.php/content/show/about_us/who_we_are

(http://www.poppyscotland.org.uk/index.php/content/show/about_us/who_we_are)

Restlessnative
07-Nov-11, 22:44
Yes sorry your right, it is for every soul that was lost in every war, I was just looking at the UK. Very sorry.

It's was all over the new, not just in the UK. Many European folks I've met in the last week can't believe it. I'm not sure as who they were trying not to offend other than the folk that wanted to celebrate it.

Do you think an independent Scotland would fair better at stopping such over the top political correctness?

Phill
07-Nov-11, 23:24
Does anyone know what Independence will cost?

By that I mean the cost of new departments, re-branding (which I guess will be obscene amounts to come up with stupid logo's), publicity, logistics, land purchases, equipment purchases and service contracts etc. etc. etc.

golach
07-Nov-11, 23:30
Does anyone know what Independence will cost?

By that I mean the cost of new departments, re-branding (which I guess will be obscene amounts to come up with stupid logo's), publicity, logistics, land purchases, equipment purchases and service contracts etc. etc. etc.
You forgot the Cost of Ecks new palace on Regent Rd.

secrets in symmetry
07-Nov-11, 23:40
Wee Fat Shreck's new National Logo has already been designed for us:

http://stuwho.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/salmond-1.jpg?w=385&h=258

It'll be appearing on a letterhead near you starting next week....

Phill
08-Nov-11, 00:18
Wee Fat Shreck's new National Logo has already been designed for us:

http://stuwho.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/salmond-1.jpg?w=385&h=258

It'll be appearing on a letterhead near you starting next week....Oh, too green I thought:
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy337/Phill_Rawlins/weeeck.jpg


FREEEEEDDOOMMMMMMM!!!!! ('cept from Brussels, but their not Ingerlish so it's OK)

weezer 316
08-Nov-11, 00:21
No no I'm not proposing it in anyway as an argument, I'm asking a question?? What do you think?

And yes I know it's a REMEMBRANCE for British folk that died for a good cause, of which many were Scottish, we should aloud to celebrate it without causing offence.

Yes Scotland has always voted for Labour for running Britain that's true, but look at who we vote for running our own country??? It's two different things voting for a Government that will never take you seriously or voting for running your own country. Or am I wrong?

Really! come on now! Wont take you seriously? If you live in Caithness you are benefiting massively from 2 huge peices of UK governemnt investment in Vulcan and Dounreay that have given this area the one of the highest standards of living in Europe, and have done for half a century. Could I also point out the royal family (who I would get a shot of) have or rather had a residence here, bringing in the tourists.

What exactly has the scottish government in its existance done for here? Proposed a few wind farms that will have MASSIVE local opposition, make a couple of hudred to build then a dozen to run? Aside from that.........nothing. And do you know why they have done nothing? I would bet my house its because the incredibly highly centralised nature of scotland means the central belt will get everything as thats where the votes are!

Phill
08-Nov-11, 00:40
I would bet my house its because the incredibly highly centralised nature of Scotland means the central belt will get everything as thats where the votes are!Kerching!

Being an Inglandershirrish incomer I was brought up in the 'North' under the impression that the powers wot be, down in Larndun, didnea give two hoots about 'us' oop North and in the home counties etc. etc.
Seems the same view in Scotland.
Seems the same view in Wales.
Seems the same view in the North East.
Seems the same view in the North West.
Seems the same view in the Midlands.

It ain't England v Scotland, it ain't Westminster v Holyrood.
It's centralised power v everyone else, no matter where you put it.

I'm understanding there is a massive amount of taxpayers money, supposedly ringfenced for Caithness, Sutherland and other northern rural areas, gets swallowed up by Inverness. Some of this cash is sent from the EU & Westminster. Some never gets sent further North than Edinburgh.

It's very easy for any politico to use Westminster / UK / Britain / England as a divisive tool for their own agenda. [evil]

Restlessnative
08-Nov-11, 07:17
Weezer read the question and answer...... you go off on some daft tangents

RecQuery
08-Nov-11, 11:17
Rather relevant the demonisation of Alec Salmond (http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/iain-macwhirter/the-demonisation-of-alex-salmond-1.1133343), can't argue with the guy so they insult him.

John Little
08-Nov-11, 11:24
Well to be fair Req you can argue with him on some points at least.

The article speaks of Scotland exporting power from renewables to England after independence.

Yet the UK government has committed to building 10 new nuclear power stations - the first of them to be in commission before 2020.
Because the SNP is anti-nuclear they are all in England.

I suppose that an English national grid might buy some power from Scotland - as they buy at peak times from France right now.


But I cannot think that the revenue generated will be astronomical.

And when the wind does not blow, does Scotland then buy nuclear-generated power from England? As England does from France presently.

What then?

weezer 316
08-Nov-11, 11:39
Enough John! Critical analysis of the situation was not in their manifesto, so why introduce it now!

They really should build a nuclear power plant here. There would be zero opposition and the skill base is here already.

But alec knows best

RecQuery
08-Nov-11, 11:40
Well to be fair Req you can argue with him on some points at least.

The article speaks of Scotland exporting power from renewables to England after independence.

Yet the UK government has committed to building 10 new nuclear power stations - the first of them to be in commission before 2020.
Because the SNP is anti-nuclear they are all in England.

I suppose that an English national grid might buy some power from Scotland - as they buy at peak times from France right now.


But I cannot think that the revenue generated will be astronomical.

And when the wind does not blow, does Scotland then buy nuclear-generated power from England? As England does from France presently.

What then?

I can't help but think that Westminister is trying to do the same with renewable energy that it did with oil in the 1970s, wind is just one form of renewable energy. With crap like this from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15548775) apparently independence will bring an end to tides, river flow and wind, clearly inaccurate stuff like this again from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15578344). Stuff comparing the First Minister to Robert Mugabe. Dodgy reports from Citigroup that have been heavily criticised people that review such things and by competitors. Also as I've said before one does name base independence/freedom on the amount of money, that was originally a Unionist debate point that they back-pedal on when they realise what will actually happen.

It's all just FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) and astroturfing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing).

John Little
08-Nov-11, 11:56
"But Mr Salmond told BBC Radio Scotland's Good Morning Scotland programme: "In order to get anywhere near the renewable energy obligations that London is going to have, England is going to have to have Scottish renewables from the sea."

I don't get this bit. Why would England need such? England also gets wind, tides and has several thousand miles of coast. And there seem to be windfarms all over the place.


"Perhaps the reason why all these international companies are committing funds to Scotland is because in 10 years' time, without Scottish offshore wind power, then there would be a severe danger of the lights going off in England. I don't think anybody is going to want or allow that to happen."

I don't get that either. With the existing power stations and the newbuilds coming on stream, why would the lights go off in England?

And why is Mr Salmond seemingly so sure that he has England over a barrel?

As you know my take on Scottish Independence is that if the Scottish people want it then they should have it.

But this stuff looks like castles in the air.

Nick Noble
08-Nov-11, 12:08
I know that the org does not like too many facts to get in the way of robust debate, but there's an interesting look at the facts behind the myth that Scotland in effect is subsidised by the UK in the New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/scotland-12288-union-public

Cloud Puncher
08-Nov-11, 12:14
Am I the only one who doesnt really care ??, I have long resigned myself to getting done over by politicians whatever their views. And no matter what happens us Scots dont hate the English, we just like winding them up that we do. We will always have close relations with our neighbours whether united or not, geography history and basic trade will ensure that.

But not having to listen to the EBC bringing up England whatever home nation is playing, and no more 1966 reminders, might be nice come to think of it.

John Little
08-Nov-11, 13:03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w62P_tklw9c

John Little
08-Nov-11, 13:24
It seems to me that there are a lot of Scottish people who like to wind 'the English' up. It's all good fun to say they 'hate' the English when they really do not. And when they meet individuals instead of 'the English' then they are the soul of friendliness and balance and reason- all that one could wish in a friend.

But that's this generation.

What is a tongue in cheek joke to an adult of 1980 is seen by their children.

It seems to me that there is an increasing number of Scottish people who do actually hate the English- without being able to fully articulate why. Because tongue in cheek or not, that's how they were raised.

Youtube has a lot of it.

And just try googling 'Scots hate English' and see how much there is.

You might think it a jest - but there's loads who are quite serious about it.

Bazeye
08-Nov-11, 13:43
It seems to me that there is an increasing number of Scottish people who do actually hate the English- without being able to fully articulate why.


Met one or two of them in Thurso over the years, although they were all steaming at the time. Never had any bother from anyone sober though.

Cloud Puncher
08-Nov-11, 13:58
It seems to me that there are a lot of Scottish people who like to wind 'the English' up. It's all good fun to say they 'hate' the English when they really do not. And when they meet individuals instead of 'the English' then they are the soul of friendliness and balance and reason- all that one could wish in a friend.

But that's this generation.

What is a tongue in cheek joke to an adult of 1980 is seen by their children.

It seems to me that there is an increasing number of Scottish people who do actually hate the English- without being able to fully articulate why. Because tongue in cheek or not, that's how they were raised.

Youtube has a lot of it.

And just try googling 'Scots hate English' and see how much there is.

You might think it a jest - but there's loads who are quite serious about it.

Lighten up. There seems to be a trend amongst the English today to play the victim, since they dont rule the roost anymore at Westminster they are getting a bit insecure and getting a petted lip on. I remember watching Saint and Greavise as a kid and Greavise was always putting the boot into us jocks, you dont hear us dribbling about it.

I have had serious verbal and physical abuse aimed at me when I lived and worked in England, doesnt mean I think all English people are like that. Idiots are everywhere and everyone has their share.

golach
08-Nov-11, 14:00
Youtube has a lot of it.And just try googling 'Scots hate English' and see how much there is.You might think it a jest - but there's loads who are quite serious about it.

That works both ways, google English hate the Scots, you will be surprised how jealous our south of the Border "Friends" are of us.

Restlessnative
08-Nov-11, 14:04
I know that the org does not like too many facts to get in the way of robust debate, but there's an interesting look at the facts behind the myth that Scotland in effect is subsidised by the UK in the New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/scotland-12288-union-public

Thanks for the very interesting article

ducati
08-Nov-11, 14:07
It seems to me that there are a lot of Scottish people who like to wind 'the English' up. It's all good fun to say they 'hate' the English when they really do not. And when they meet individuals instead of 'the English' then they are the soul of friendliness and balance and reason- all that one could wish in a friend.

But that's this generation.



What is a tongue in cheek joke to an adult of 1980 is seen by their children.

It seems to me that there is an increasing number of Scottish people who do actually hate the English- without being able to fully articulate why. Because tongue in cheek or not, that's how they were raised.

Youtube has a lot of it.

And just try googling 'Scots hate English' and see how much there is.

You might think it a jest - but there's loads who are quite serious about it.

Just had a quick surf :eek: Like you John, I don't follow football and every single one of the spoutings I just witnessed mentioned it. Maybe we should just ban football then we could get on and these separatists would settle down.

Come to think of it, it would probably end sectarianism in Scotland within a generation too. Good case.

theone
08-Nov-11, 17:14
Maybe we should just ban football then we could get on and these separatists would settle down.

Come to think of it, it would probably end sectarianism in Scotland within a generation too. Good case.

Ban religion if you want the sectarianism to stop!

John Little
08-Nov-11, 17:21
Sigh. I think I'm probably in favour of independence just to stop this sort of thing.

If you have Facebook, read and despair...

https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=224194203062&topic=13104

Bazeye
08-Nov-11, 18:02
Sigh. I think I'm probably in favour of independence just to stop this sort of thing.

If you have Facebook, read and despair...

https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=224194203062&topic=13104

Thats right John, something that happened 500 years ago is our fault.

ducati
08-Nov-11, 18:14
Sigh. I think I'm probably in favour of independence just to stop this sort of thing.

If you have Facebook, read and despair...

https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=224194203062&topic=13104

Yep, from now on I am too, or at least, I don't care anymore.

weezer 316
08-Nov-11, 18:46
Im probably the biggest fooptball fan you will ever find i swear. Footbal is supposed to be tribal, thats one of its aims, my team v your team.

Corrie 3
08-Nov-11, 20:16
Im probably the biggest fooptball fan you will ever find i swear. Footbal is supposed to be tribal, thats one of its aims, my team v your team.
A bit like Politics then Weezer.................My party against yours.......lol

C3...............:roll:;)

RecQuery
08-Nov-11, 22:51
I know that the org does not like too many facts to get in the way of robust debate, but there's an interesting look at the facts behind the myth that Scotland in effect is subsidised by the UK in the New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/scotland-12288-union-public

On a side note, people may want to be careful about going to News Statesman links, unless they know what they're doing.

http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=newstatesman.com


Of the 912 pages we tested on the site over the past 90 days, 168 page(s) resulted in malicious software being downloaded and installed without user consent. The last time Google visited this site was on 2011-11-08, and the last time suspicious content was found on this site was on 2011-11-07. Malicious software includes 174 exploit(s), 158 scripting exploit(s), 48 trojan(s). Successful infection resulted in an average of 5 new process(es) on the target machine.
Malicious software is hosted on 6 domain(s), including gsdgsdgsg.ce.ms/ (http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=gsdgsdgsg.ce.ms/), hhfsdhrhdfh.ce.ms/ (http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=hhfsdhrhdfh.ce.ms/), uetur.coom.in/ (http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=uetur.coom.in/).
1 domain(s) appear to be functioning as intermediaries for distributing malware to visitors of this site, including vertadnet.com/ (http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=vertadnet.com/).
This site was hosted on 2 network(s) including AS44009 (SLEEK) (http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=AS:44009), AS3561 (SAVVIS) (http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=AS:3561).

Nick Noble
08-Nov-11, 22:57
On a side note, people may want to be careful about going to News Statesman links, unless they know what they're doing.

http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=newstatesman.com

you missed these bits :

What is the current listing status for newstatesman.com?

This site is not currently listed as suspicious.


...


Has this site acted as an intermediary resulting in further distribution of malware?

Over the past 90 days, newstatesman.com did not appear to function as an intermediary for the infection of any sites.

Has this site hosted malware?

No, this site has not hosted malicious software over the past 90 days.

secrets in symmetry
09-Nov-11, 22:26
Oh, too green I thought:
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy337/Phill_Rawlins/weeeck.jpg


FREEEEEDDOOMMMMMMM!!!!! ('cept from Brussels, but their not Ingerlish so it's OK)Oh yes, that's much better. That's him down to a T...or an X. :cool:


Rather relevant the demonisation of Alec Salmond (http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/iain-macwhirter/the-demonisation-of-alex-salmond-1.1133343), can't argue with the guy so they insult him.Yes, you can't argue with him...because he doesn't listen, and then he continues talking his same old crap back at you.

Watch him being challenged on renewables. He doesn't understand the first thing about the problems with them, so he continues talking his particular brand of crap back at the interviewer.

secrets in symmetry
09-Nov-11, 22:34
I can't help but think that Westminister is trying to do the same with renewable energy that it did with oil in the 1970s, wind is just one form of renewable energy. With crap like this from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15548775) apparently independence will bring an end to tides, river flow and wind, clearly inaccurate stuff like this again from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15578344). Stuff comparing the First Minister to Robert Mugabe. Dodgy reports from Citigroup that have been heavily criticised people that review such things and by competitors. Also as I've said before one does name base independence/freedom on the amount of money, that was originally a Unionist debate point that they back-pedal on when they realise what will actually happen.

It's all just FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) and astroturfing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing).This is not crap from the BBC. Well, it is crap, but it's not as crappy as the people who call it crap say it is. There are serious problems with relying on anything like 100% renewables that most people just don't get. Rheghead and ywindy both know the problems, but the latter thinks "problem!" when he should be thinking "solution?". A much bigger problem is that most SNPers don't even understand the problem, and a lot of them don't realise there's a problem in the first place....

RecQuery
10-Nov-11, 08:43
This is not crap from the BBC. Well, it is crap, but it's not as crappy as the people who call it crap say it is. There are serious problems with relying on anything like 100% renewables that most people just don't get. Rheghead and ywindy both know the problems, but the latter thinks "problem!" when he should be thinking "solution?". A much bigger problem is that most SNPers don't even understand the problem, and a lot of them don't realise there's a problem in the first place....

I agree, I wouldn't want to rely on anything 100% especially not at the current generation renewable technology is at (though I am reading about some interesting future developments), I'd always have a couple of backups. Personally despite it's demonisation I'd build some nuclear power stations while at the same time funding any energy technology research.

secrets in symmetry
10-Nov-11, 23:43
I agree, I wouldn't want to rely on anything 100% especially not at the current generation renewable technology is at (though I am reading about some interesting future developments), I'd always have a couple of backups. Personally despite it's demonisation I'd build some nuclear power stations while at the same time funding any energy technology research.Absolutely, but in the case of wind & marine renewables it's particularly important to have alternatives. There will sometimes be next to no renewable power generated at all - for example, on a calm day at slack water in the Pentland Firth. If it's misty and dull, then even solar would be on low power. Energy storage technology on a massive scale is needed desperately.

From yesterday's news: Council rejects plans for new coal-fired power station at Hunterston (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=hunterston%20carbon%20storage&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCUQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scotsman.com%2Fnews%2Fenviron ment%2Fcouncil_rejects_plans_for_new_coal_fired_po wer_station_at_hunterston_1_1956325&ei=clK8TrueH8nXsgbn_LiDAw&usg=AFQjCNE2sRpWSZh-SFY4mIPiQJOiXt6Scw&cad=rja)

I think the Hunterston plan was ok, and that carbon capture and storage makes sense.