View Full Version : The great energy rip off. Buy British (Scottish)
Right we all know the energy suppliers are making mega bucks from us (average £125 per customer in profit). We can't do anything about this and all energy is about the same price from any supplier we know this too.
So, we can switch, but why? To make sure these profits and tax benefit the UK that's why.
So all you facebook campaigners start a group to switch to the UK owned suppliers. Lets drive these foreigners that are ripping us off from these shores. [evil]
Who are the UK owned suppliers. Thank you.
We're with 'Hydro' Scottish and Southern, that's British?
Is not npower German.. don't know about the others
Who are the UK owned suppliers. Thank you.
Scottish & Southern (The Hydro) and I think Centrica (British Gas) are still "British"
(Caveat - we don't really know who owns the shares of course).
E.ON – Based in Dusseldorf, Germany, completed take over of Powergen in 2002.
EDF (Électricité de France) – Paris based, produced 22% of EU Electricity in 2003, 74.5% of which was from Nuclear Power.
NPower – It’s parent comapany is german giant RWE
Scottish Power – Controlled by Iberdola, a huge Spanish Utilities company
British Gas – Centrica ltd took over the British Gas name in the UK
Scottish and Southern Energy – Based in Perth, Scotland since its inception in 1998
Scottish & Southern (The Hydro) and I think Centrica (British Gas) are still "British"
(Caveat - we don't really know who owns the shares of course).
E.ON – Based in Dusseldorf, Germany, completed take over of Powergen in 2002.
EDF (Électricité de France) – Paris based, produced 22% of EU Electricity in 2003, 74.5% of which was from Nuclear Power.
NPower – It’s parent comapany is german giant RWE
Scottish Power – Controlled by Iberdola, a huge Spanish Utilities company
British Gas – Centrica ltd took over the British Gas name in the UK
Scottish and Southern Energy – Based in Perth, Scotland since its inception in 1998
Just been looking, and it seems there are not many left.
This.........http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/the-big-question-what-does-a-foreign-takeover-of-british-energy-mean-for-the-industry-941404.html
Makes interesting reading.
Npower is a German company
Eon is Finnish owned
Scottish Power is owned by Iberdrola a Spanish company
British Gas is owned by Centrica soon to be bought by a Russian company
Scottish Hydro is the only Scottish owned company out of all that lot.
Npower is a German company
Eon is Finnish owned
Scottish Power is owned by Iberdrola a Spanish company
British Gas is owned by Centrica soon to be bought by a Russian company
Scottish Hydro is the only Scottish owned company out of all that lot.
Right, so that's established, you know what to do!:D
And I strongly disagree with this statement: "Consumers do not care who owns the energy company so long as they get a good service". from the link shazzap posted.
The fact is; no energy company is giving good service and they are all ripping us off.
We have dual fuel with Scottish Hydro electric on their energyplus scheme. Although they announced an 11% price rise earlier this year we had been encouraged to stay with them as customers with the promise of a bonus payment to the accounts in April. Had a letter this week to say that the bonus was being paid early and would be on the accounts by the end of October.
oldmarine
14-Oct-11, 16:47
In reading all of the above I can see the difficulties of buying Scottish or Great Britain. We have the same problems in the USA. My wife, when she makes purchases, tries to buy 'made in the USA'. It's often not easy to do. So many of our industry have moved out of country. There are many reasons why they have done so. Most of them move out because of the cost of taxes, etc. They want to have a larger profit margin. It appears to be 'all about money.' Meanwhile our country, the US of A, has gotten so deep in debt from borrowing from other countries that it is doubtful when the debt will be paid off. The large debt used to be owed to Great Britain and now it is China. Some people question whether the USA will still be around when the end time is reached. The USA is not mentioned by the prognosticators of old and that is why there are those doubts.
weezer 316
14-Oct-11, 17:49
Storm in a teacup. To be honest, if an energy company is making £15 profit on average then they are selling themselves short. How many companies do you regularly buy from that make more than £125 profit a year from you? You local supermarket for one. Your mortgage, credit cards for sure.........
Get a grip people, seriously. Amazingly most seem to have overlooked the fact most of the comopanies LOSt money on their average customer for the period 2004 - 2009.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15302723
And why if somethign is scottish or british should you buy it? to a man I am sure you all buy the cheapest, best quality in most things, regardless of where it was made or the comany based. Until you get a bee in your bonet about stuff liek this.
Storm in a teacup. To be honest, if an energy company is making £15 profit on average then they are selling themselves short. How many companies do you regularly buy from that make more than £125 profit a year from you? You local supermarket for one. Your mortgage, credit cards for sure.........
Get a grip people, seriously. Amazingly most seem to have overlooked the fact most of the comopanies LOSt money on their average customer for the period 2004 - 2009.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15302723
And why if somethign is scottish or british should you buy it? to a man I am sure you all buy the cheapest, best quality in most things, regardless of where it was made or the comany based. Until you get a bee in your bonet about stuff liek this.
But when foreigners make that profit it goes home. When a UK company makes it it stays.
Come on people, if this works, SSE could quite easily open a lovely big call/service centre in Caithness and wipe out our unemployment overnight.
Think of the debt generations to come would owe you.
Get this on Facebook, Bebo. Twitter whatever.
weezer 316
14-Oct-11, 18:13
And what exaclty is stopping npower opening a call centre in caithness seeing as they have customers in this country too?
And what exaclty is stopping npower opening a call centre in caithness seeing as they have customers in this country too?
Do a poll weezer,I am sure you wont find many households up her who use npower!!! They spend a lot of their customers cash promoting and paying for English Cricket....Hydro is the best bet for anyone up here!!
C3.............[disgust][disgust]
And what exaclty is stopping npower opening a call centre in caithness seeing as they have customers in this country too?
If we are instrumental in growing their company, don't you think they might be a teeny bit greatful?
I happen to know that many of the senior management of SSE are Scots, they work in Perth. I seriously doubt any of the same peeps in Npower know where Caithness is.
weezer 316
14-Oct-11, 18:23
Fail again to point why any of that matters? The fact they are scottish is irrelevant isnt it? You do realise if they got their energy with a scottish only policy your fuel would cost a helluva lot more? Or maybe you dont. Then you would whinge about that
Fail again to point why any of that matters? The fact they are scottish is irrelevant isnt it? You do realise if they got their energy with a scottish only policy your fuel would cost a helluva lot more? Or maybe you dont. Then you would whinge about that
What the hell are you talking about?
You have completely missed the point and are arguing for the sake of it. Keep spending your money with a foreign company if you want but don't criticise those who preferred not to.
weezer 316
14-Oct-11, 18:44
Lol! Possibly want as clear as I could have made it. I will put it another way.....
You are saying buy scottish/british because they are just that. The absurdity of that argument must be lost on you, never mind the hypocrisy of it.
Lol! Possibly want as clear as I could have made it. I will put it another way.....
You are saying buy scottish/british because they are just that. The absurdity of that argument must be lost on you, never mind the hypocrisy of it.
Can't do any harm and it might do some good.
Now don't bother replying to me as you are on ignore
For me the damage was done when the UK's assets were sold off in the 80's on the promise of more competition leading to lower prices......yeah that worked well!
The current danger is what is coming from this generation of conservatives such as the NHS reforms.
For me the damage was done when the UK's assets were sold off in the 80's on the promise of more competition leading to lower prices......yeah that worked well!
The current danger is what is coming from this generation of conservatives such as the NHS reforms.
As I understand it, the danger to the NHS would be from not reforming.
My view is there was nothing wrong with putting power in the private sector. It changed from being a drain on resources to a revenue generating industry. Where the policy fell down was allowing foreign companies to come in and hoover them up in a feeding frenzy of aquisition. Presumably because they were undervalued.
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 00:09
Can't do any harm and it might do some good.
Now don't bother replying to me as you are on ignoreAaaaw, you can't put my pal weezy on ignore. He's the best fun there is on this forum.
I realised my ignore list was getting too long when I couldn't see all but one post on a recent thread that went over a page. Yes, I know some people's posts are just too unbearable to contemplate responding to, but we have to be grown up about this. Don't we?
Aaaaw, you can't put my pal weezy on ignore. He's the best fun there is on this forum.
I realised my ignore list was getting too long when I couldn't see all but one post on a recent thread that went over a page. Yes, I know some people's posts are just too unbearable to contemplate responding to, but we have to be grown up about this. Don't we?
Ignore is not a tool I use much. W is in a very exclusive club with one member.
tonkatojo
15-Oct-11, 10:19
For me the damage was done when the UK's assets were sold off in the 80's on the promise of more competition leading to lower prices......yeah that worked well!
The current danger is what is coming from this generation of conservatives such as the NHS reforms.
That wouldn't be the tory mob would it, don't mention this to ducati it is a sore point criticising Thatcher, also he is a bit quiet on the end of the fox hunt but he might comment on who benefited from the now backbencher Fox's wrongdoings not to mention the sell off of major utilities. Just think the deficit could have been reduced by how much if the public still owned them instead of shareholders.
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 13:28
Ignore is not a tool I use much. W is in a very exclusive club with one member.I don't use it much on other forums, but this one is an exception.
Weezy is unique, that's why I would never put him on ignore.
That wouldn't be the tory mob would it, don't mention this to ducati it is a sore point criticising Thatcher, also he is a bit quiet on the end of the fox hunt but he might comment on who benefited from the now backbencher Fox's wrongdoings not to mention the sell off of major utilities. Just think the deficit could have been reduced by how much if the public still owned them instead of shareholders.
Maybe for another thread, this one is about how we take control over the energy companies getting away with our cash.
Are you paying foreigners for your fuel?
I heard a great line yesterday from the boss of the Steelworks re-opening in your neck of the woods;
"the best way to predict the future is to make it yourself" Lets go and make the future!
tonkatojo
15-Oct-11, 21:20
Maybe for another thread, this one is about how we take control over the energy companies getting away with our cash.
Are you paying foreigners for your fuel?
I heard a great line yesterday from the boss of the Steelworks re-opening in your neck of the woods;
"the best way to predict the future is to make it yourself" Lets go and make the future!
Your welcome to make comments on the "fox hunting" thread.
As for the steelworks your correct lets hope its success and not like Ravenscraig and Consett as I remember they got stuffed along with loads of shipyards and most other heavy industry including the mines where the best apprenticeships were along with the shipyards. But never mind we can import coal from China and ships from here there and everywhere.
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 21:36
Maybe for another thread, this one is about how we take control over the energy companies getting away with our cash.
Are you paying foreigners for your fuel?
No, I'm not. Not at the moment, at least.
I'm not an anti-globalisation campaigner, but I worry that the Blair/Brown governments were too quick to let our industries be taken over by foreign companies. Germany would never have let it happen in the way B&B did.
After the big meeting today with the big 6 suppliers, the only thing that seems to have come out of it is advice to get insulation.
Thanks a bunch. Now lets get rid of these foreign rip off merchants!
What exactly was the point, of this meeting. They have done absolutely zilch. Apparently, it is up to us, Joe Public. To find the cheapest tariff.
tonkatojo
17-Oct-11, 18:28
After the big meeting today with the big 6 suppliers, the only thing that seems to have come out of it is advice to get insulation.
Thanks a bunch. Now lets get rid of these foreign rip off merchants!
Your not suggesting re nationalising are you ?.
A simple way of sorting this and getting rid of the foreign companies........Hydro drop their price by 20%, everybody gets killed in the rush to change to them, Hydro have loads more customers, competition go to the wall, everybody happy!!! (except the Bits who have jobs with the competition)...
How's that then Duke, would it work?
C3.......................:eek::roll:
One wonders why the big 6 energy companies have increased their profit margins in the last few years? Is it to just greedily profit from us for their shareholders or are they raising capital for future investment? What energy sector is hugely expensive to invest in out of their own coffers and in the eyes of our present Government is needed but won't give any subsidies for construction? Answers on a postcard :roll:
tonkatojo
17-Oct-11, 19:37
One wonders why the big 6 energy companies have increased their profit margins in the last few years? Is it to just greedily profit from us for their shareholders or are they raising capital for future investment? What energy sector is hugely expensive to invest in out of their own coffers and in the eyes of our present Government is needed but won't give any subsidies for construction? Answers on a postcard :roll:
I'm led to believe a huge wodge of the increases are green taxes.
I'm led to believe a huge wodge of the increases are green taxes.
Just how many more taxes, are we supposed to pay. A breathing tax, maybe.
I'm led to believe a huge wodge of the increases are green taxes.
Yes you are right, about £5.50p are green taxes out of that £125 increase in profits.
ywindythesecond
17-Oct-11, 20:46
Yes you are right, about £5.50p are green taxes out of that £125 increase in profits.
Would you like to explain this blatant piece of disinformation to the readers of this thread please Reggy.
Would you like to explain this blatant piece of disinformation to the readers of this thread please Reggy.
I leave the skill of the disinformationmeister in your safe hands ywindy but it really is simple maths ywindy, you take the amount of money earned from ROCs in 2010, you then make the proportion of that used by the domestic sector from Energy in Brief 2011. You then divide that by the number households which is the population/2.4 and it is voila, ~£5.50p, which is the average amount of green taxes paid by each domestic consumer through their annual bill.
£400,000,000 X (118.7/336) X (2.4/60,000,000) = £5.65p
(All the figures are easily accessible to a determined googler...)
A simple way of sorting this and getting rid of the foreign companies........Hydro drop their price by 20%, everybody gets killed in the rush to change to them, Hydro have loads more customers, competition go to the wall, everybody happy!!! (except the Bits who have jobs with the competition)...
How's that then Duke, would it work?
C3.......................:eek::roll:
Works for me! And don't worry about jobs, the industry still needs the same peeps.
Your not suggesting re nationalising are you ?.
Well that would be a great idea Tonky if you wanted to convert a highly profitable industry into a quango run by civil servants, that made a loss and required billions in subsidies and charged more for energy because it was so inefficient.
I seem to remember that was why it was de-nationalised in the first place.
Works for me! And don't worry about jobs, the industry still needs the same peeps.
I thought it would make good business sense but it tells me that Hydro must be in a cartel with the other companies otherwise it would have happened by now. It happens with our petrol, it's a well known fact that Morrisons in Inverness keep Tesco from raising their prices. Why isn't there a fuel price war the same as you get forecourt price wars?
I do believe they are all in it together and this business of switching is rubbish, there isn't a cheaper one to switch to as far as I can see!!
C3.......[disgust]
weezer 316
18-Oct-11, 09:43
HAhaha! You lot are hilarious!
They were losing money from 2004 - 2009 omn their average customer. What do you bunch of 'greeting, dont expect me to pay for what I use or allow a company to make a profit' merchnats make of that? You werent advocating price raises then were you?
Hypocrites to a man!
tonkatojo
18-Oct-11, 12:01
Well that would be a great idea Tonky if you wanted to convert a highly profitable industry into a quango run by civil servants, that made a loss and required billions in subsidies and charged more for energy because it was so inefficient.
I seem to remember that was why it was de-nationalised in the first place.
Your probably right then, but it is the now were talking about and folk are more knowledgeable and clued up in the present. I think it would work and think of the profit going to the coffers to enable all this modernisation we all a going to pay anyway, but the well heeled won't be living off of us peasants and that includes the foreign well heeled, no the wonder the French elec and gas is cheaper we are inadvertently subsidising them through EDF.
HAhaha! You lot are hilarious!
They were losing money from 2004 - 2009 omn their average customer. What do you bunch of 'greeting, dont expect me to pay for what I use or allow a company to make a profit' merchnats make of that? You werent advocating price raises then were you?
Hypocrites to a man!
Didn't you hear me shouting from the rooftops weezer........"Please, please, put up your prices?"
Get real Man, there is profit and there is daylight robbery and today's prices are daylight robbery and it was clear from yesterday's meeting that we will get no help from Cameron and his bunch of thieves so it will be down to us, Joe Public, to get this injustice put right!!!
C3.............[disgust][disgust]
weezer 316
18-Oct-11, 15:05
Corrie, like most nationalists your a hypocrite. They were losing money on their average customer for 5 years, the very same report says that, why doenst this concern you? Please explain why!
Furthermore, what is acceptable profit? Say the average bill is around £1125 a year yes? Thats about 12.5% profit with £1000 outlay by the company. I absolutely guarantee you many many many more things your purchase have a far greater profit margin. Is this ok or are they all ripping you off too?
You seem to think companies should spend £1000 to make 1p profit. Quite how you square that with the risks involved in something as volatile as the energy market is beyond me, but then you couldnt care less clearly. Yet you would cry to the high heavens if the very same company had no money to spend on infrastructure and maintenancece to get that very same fuel to you because they were broke!
And no its not camerons issue. Its yours. Its called a market, its your job to get the best deal for yourself, no the govts!!! And if it is, where is we fat Alec when hes at home?
And again, your a hypocrite.
They lost money for 5 years Weezer? Is that what you are saying? What company could lose money for 5 years in a row and still be in business? Why did they let the companies lose money for 5 years, surely that's bad management and they should have been shown the door!!
And as I have said earlier we are wasting our time looking for the "best deal" because there isn't one, these companies have got their prices sewn up and they all charge the same. That way they can all have a piece of the cake and it's us, the consumer who is providing that cake. Of course profits should go on infrastructure and new plant, what I find disgusting is the shares doled out to the shareholders, this is what is excessive.
And a challenge for you weezer, go find a good deal on the internet and I can assure you that you will be wasting your time. All we get from the companies and the Govt is surf the net and find the best deal and get your home insulated....I have done all that, so what do I do now to get my bills down?
C3.............[disgust]
weezer 316
18-Oct-11, 18:08
No, they didnt lose money, they were losing money on their average customer. Just the same as they are making £125 on the average customer now. The svery same repoirt pointed this out.
And could you answer me what you consider excess profit?
In 2008 they made £400m just from vulnerable people who had to use pre-payment meters.....I call that excessive profit!!
C3...............[disgust]
In 2008 they made £400m just from vulnerable people who had to use pre-payment meters.....I call that excessive profit!!
C3...............[disgust]
Ah but if the big 6 companies need to raise the ~£80 billion to build 16 nuclear reactors to provide 40% of the UK's future energy needs then they have to start profiteering pretty fast and big.
weezer 316
18-Oct-11, 20:48
In 2008 they made £400m just from vulnerable people who had to use pre-payment meters.....I call that excessive profit!!
C3...............[disgust]
OMG!!!
I refuse to believe its possible to be as ignorant as this and make it past 5 years of age!
Are you willing to subsidise those on pre-paid meters (and define vulnerable btw sunshine, cause old aint it!?!) because if your not willing to subsidise them then they.....ahem....and this is a funny idea.......HAVE TO PAY FOR WHAT THEY USE!!!
Of course, the small fact we use more energy that we produce in this country doesnt help either does it? But then poeple dont want wind farms or the like near them do they!
Now what if say npower have to PAY more and more (despite hedging their bets on the energy markets) for the gas and electricity you consume? Arent they entitled to pass on the increase seeing as its you using it?
OMG!!!
I refuse to believe its possible to be as ignorant as this and make it past 5 years of age!
Are you willing to subsidise those on pre-paid meters (and define vulnerable btw sunshine, cause old aint it!?!) because if your not willing to subsidise them then they.....ahem....and this is a funny idea.......HAVE TO PAY FOR WHAT THEY USE!!!
Of course, the small fact we use more energy that we produce in this country doesnt help either does it? But then poeple dont want wind farms or the like near them do they!
Now what if say npower have to PAY more and more (despite hedging their bets on the energy markets) for the gas and electricity you consume? Arent they entitled to pass on the increase seeing as its you using it?
I look forward to the day weezer when you can make a post without being offensive.....I hope that day is soon.!
Ok, Tell me why these people on pre-pays have to be charged more for their power than someone like me who only pays every 3 months. The company get their money early from these people and start earning interest immediately whereas I hang onto my money and make interest for myself and yet pre-pays pay more than I do.....is that fair?
C3.............:roll:
Ah but if the big 6 companies need to raise the ~£80 billion to build 16 nuclear reactors to provide 40% of the UK's future energy needs then they have to start profiteering pretty fast and big.
They don't need that investment in Scotland so when do we start getting the Tartan Discount?
weezer 316
19-Oct-11, 13:16
I look forward to the day weezer when you can make a post without being offensive.....I hope that day is soon.!
Ok, Tell me why these people on pre-pays have to be charged more for their power than someone like me who only pays every 3 months. The company get their money early from these people and start earning interest immediately whereas I hang onto my money and make interest for myself and yet pre-pays pay more than I do.....is that fair?
C3.............:roll:
You know what, it likely isnt fair, and in that case change to a bill. This wont get your bill down though. Do you honestly think your ripped off? Im being deadly serious, do you think your shafted by energy companies if they make £125 profit from you for the year?
My take on this is threefold:
Why is it not considered price fixing and anticompetitive behaviour the way energy companies operate?
Why are kilowatt hours in the Europe cheaper than in Scotland when Scotland exports a good chunk of the electricity it generates?
Why do prices go up when 'wholesale operating costs' increase but prices don't go down when 'wholesale operating costs' decrease?
weezer 316
19-Oct-11, 13:57
1: What exactly is anti-comptetitive about these companies?
2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_Kingdom) - we are a net importer of energy, a change from just a few years ago. That energy then needs to be bought, with wholesalers in Russia likely for the gass I would assume. That costs money as we are almost as far west of russia as you can get in the EU bar Iberia.
3: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14294396 - this probably explains it better than I could. Its very complex
Would you like to explain this blatant piece of disinformation to the readers of this thread please Reggy.
You asked the question, do you concur or verify my calculation given in #38 that UK domestic electricity consumers are only spending ~£5.50 p.a. on green taxes? If so then it makes a mockery of the notion that green taxes are responsible for the steep price rises in recent years which seems to be constantly pushed by The Telegraph, Daily Mail and the Daily Express et al.
1: What exactly is anti-competitive about these companies?
2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_Kingdom - we are a net importer of energy, a change from just a few years ago. That energy then needs to be bought, with wholesalers in Russia likely for the gas I would assume. That costs money as we are almost as far west of russia as you can get in the EU bar Iberia.
3: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14294396 - this probably explains it better than I could. Its very complex
I'm possibly wrong, it just seems that with every company basically raising prices by the same levels within a short time frames and having similar tariffs that there's the perception of dodgy behaviour. An Ofgem spokesman said recently: "It isn't proven that firms have breached the Competition Act. But we believe competition isn't working effectively and as it should be. That's why we're pushing ahead with reforms but we would need evidence that anti-competitive behaviour was being carried out or firms were breaching their licence conditions before we could take action. If we don't act according to the evidence that would cause investors to question the UK's regulatory model and would lead to increased costs for investment and ultimately for consumers". It seems a stupid thing to do given that if the government has to get involved they could face more regulation but perhaps they're willing to take that risk I think some MPs on the energy select committee are already looking into it. I believe the EU is also looking into the gas market for similar reasons.
Granted the UK is a net importer, but Scotland is a net exporter and as there are variations in things like fuel price etc similar variations in kilowatt hours would be nice, cheaper electricity for locals could be an incentive for them to allow renewables or other energy producing sources in their areas also.
Possibly, though more transparently would be nice. I seem to recall that quite a number of EU member states were investigating their energy companies for dodgy behaviour in 2008, perhaps that explains the difference in price.
tonkatojo
19-Oct-11, 18:01
You asked the question, do you concur or verify my calculation given in #38 that UK domestic electricity consumers are only spending ~£5.50 p.a. on green taxes? If so then it makes a mockery of the notion that green taxes are responsible for the steep price rises in recent years which seems to be constantly pushed by The Telegraph, Daily Mail and the Daily Express et al.
Not much of a mockery if they only make the £25 that they are touting making is it.
Not much of a mockery if they only make the £25 that they are touting making is it.
It still makes a mockery of that notion because green taxes just make up 20% of their profits at best case scenario and 4% at worst case. And yet just today the energy companies said energy prices will continue to going up above inflation because of lack of gas availability. Surely we need more green incentives to keep prices down, not less?
weezer 316
19-Oct-11, 19:27
It still makes a mockery of that notion because green taxes just make up 20% of their profits at best case scenario and 4% at worst case. And yet just today the energy companies said energy prices will continue to going up above inflation because of lack of gas availability. Surely we need more green incentives to keep prices down, not less?
hear hear!
They don't need that investment in Scotland so when do we start getting the Tartan Discount?
That is a very good point and one which is bolstered by the fact that SSE the only Scottish/UK company has abandoned plans on the nuclear sector to concentrate on more renewables.
The reality is that energy is traded globally and so electricity prices are controlled by the markets particularly the oil market. It is interesting to note that when the price of oil goes up then the price of coal goes up as well, the two markets are locked into mirrored dance with each other because you can make oil out of coal, it just costs a bit more. And then the cost of electricity goes up.
ywindythesecond
19-Oct-11, 23:36
You asked the question, do you concur or verify my calculation given in #38 that UK domestic electricity consumers are only spending ~£5.50 p.a. on green taxes? If so then it makes a mockery of the notion that green taxes are responsible for the steep price rises in recent years which seems to be constantly pushed by The Telegraph, Daily Mail and the Daily Express et al.
Your calculation works out, but I thought the total amount of ROCs in 2010/2011 was £1.2bn not £400M and couldn't find a reference because I am not Google adept. Where did you get the £400M from? Also, I could not find a reference to the fact that the average household is 2.4 people. Your calculation, subject to verification of the foregoing is correct, but the proportion of ROCs paid out and met by industry works its way into our expenditure and is ultimately paid by us the electricity bill payers. It is true that that portion does not contribute to fuel bills but it is a cost which all households have to meet.
Also, please don't confuse what anyone else or any media says with what I say. I have never used the phrase "green taxes" which I assume you mean to be the cost of the Renewables Obligation which is not a tax, it is just the money the Government allows wind energy providers to add to your electricity bill.
tonkatojo
20-Oct-11, 09:57
It still makes a mockery of that notion because green taxes just make up 20% of their profits at best case scenario and 4% at worst case. And yet just today the energy companies said energy prices will continue to going up above inflation because of lack of gas availability. Surely we need more green incentives to keep prices down, not less?
As I have said numerous times I am not the sharpest but I do not see why the general public should shoulder the burden of modernising what after all is a private owned concern, surely if that private company wants to keep going it should modernise using their profits not keeping their profits and expecting through so called green taxes the general public to modernise the private company.
Your calculation works out, but I thought the total amount of ROCs in 2010/2011 was £1.2bn not £400M and couldn't find a reference because I am not Google adept. Where did you get the £400M from?
My impeccable source was Bekisman in a post (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?153520-Baillie-Windfarm&p=882561#post882561) of his from ages ago which I remembered but that may have just been the amount dished out to wind farms. If so then I stand corrected. So total 'green taxes" is ~£16 per annum per household of which £5.50 is that given to wind farms.
I agree with your point on the use of the term green taxes but I was using it in the loosest possible way.
I also like to point out that the RO is largely a cost rather than a source of profit for the big 6 companies who have historically been dependent on conventional generation. So if the average annual electricity bill is £1127 (http://www.electricityprices.org.uk/average-electricity-bill/) then green taxes represent a very low amount (less than 2%) to the average consumer and that given to wind farms amount to ~0.5%.
My impeccable source was Bekisman in a post (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?153520-Baillie-Windfarm&p=882561#post882561) of his from ages ago which I remembered but that may have just been the amount dished out to wind farms. If so then I stand corrected. So total 'green taxes" is ~£16 per annum per household of which £5.50 is that given to wind farms.Oh Reggy you are soooo nice; 'impeccable source' indeed! :eek:
At the time of posting I was away in England using a mobile and was not sure how to put a link in, so it's down the page* but a thumbnail sketch (this was 2010):
"The total RO paid to the wind industry last year was £400 million. So each of Britain’s wind turbines earned, on average, £138,000 in subsidy last year.Add in the profits from selling the electricity they generate and after construction costs are cleared, you will be making nearly £300,000 per year per turbine, half of it courtesy of the Government."
Now, of course I'm pretty sure Reggy would not be so nice without reason (why should he?) But I'm not a 'scientist' just a bog-standard Joe with an interest in where this scam is taking us and wondering when the inevitable bubble will burst with regard to subsidies (ROCs). I understand of course that our fuel bills are inflated by the power companies asking their customers to pay the extra that they must find to pay for the expensive electricity these intermittent wind farms produce..
It never fails to amaze me that little ole Scotland - at the 'forefront' of wind farm development honestly think they will make a jot of difference to the big ole world in terms of CO2 production? dream on lad..
Fair enough it looks like global warming is a reality, but is it actually down to us? not so daft as it sounds, especially as Reggy was himself unsure of this just a few short years ago - although one would not be aware of this by present postings.
But hey, we can all change our minds can't we?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/7823681/Does-money-grow-in-wind-farms.html
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