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John Little
11-Oct-11, 20:27
The principles of policing are the acid test;

Principles of policing
The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.
Discuss....

Leanne
11-Oct-11, 20:36
I blame the parents!

John Little
11-Oct-11, 20:39
[QUOTE=Leanne;895140]I blame the parents![/QUOTE

So do I!

John Little
11-Oct-11, 20:43
Oink- Oink?

Leanne
11-Oct-11, 20:59
Oink- Oink?

Oh don't - 2 kg more and she's ready for the freezer :(

John Little
11-Oct-11, 21:00
But that is neither compulsory nor inevitable...

orkneycadian
11-Oct-11, 21:07
You forgot Item 10 - Supporting local doughnut shops!

John Little
11-Oct-11, 21:09
LOL! I would rep you again for that if I could!!!

David Banks
11-Oct-11, 21:20
7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.



Tell us more about this historic tradition.

I thought the police received specialised equipment and training, and are authorised to use force including deadly force when circumstances deem necessary.

Do the police "preach" that taking actions in the same way as they do is "incumbent upon every citizen" ?

ducati
11-Oct-11, 21:20
You forgot helpfulness in negotiating stairs.

John Little
11-Oct-11, 21:31
Tell us more about this historic tradition.

I thought the police received specialised equipment and training, and are authorised to use force including deadly force when circumstances deem necessary.

Do the police "preach" that taking actions in the same way as they do is "incumbent upon every citizen" ?

David - I think that's how they would like to be perceived. Those points are supposed to be Robert Peel's principles when he set the police up in 1828 though authorship is disputed. Personally I could dispute every one of them in my own dealings with Kent police. They are not the public imho but an arm of the state whose purpose is social control. The rest is propaganda and wishful thinking.

oldmarine
12-Oct-11, 02:51
I blame the parents!
Responsible parents should be the first line of defence.

Aaldtimer
12-Oct-11, 03:34
I blame the parents!

Isn't it a commonly held belief that police don't have fathers?;)

sandyr1
12-Oct-11, 15:59
David - I think that's how they would like to be perceived. Those points are supposed to be Robert Peel's principles when he set the police up in 1828 though authorship is disputed. Personally I could dispute every one of them in my own dealings with Kent police. They are not the public imho but an arm of the state whose purpose is social control. The rest is propaganda and wishful thinking.

Awesome... awesome!

Perhaps I shud add to my awesome...Totally (Adjective) awesome attitude! You should be proud!

Gronnuck
12-Oct-11, 17:44
Isn't it a commonly held belief that police don't have fathers?;)

I'm the father of a policeman and proud of the job he tries to do. Currently he's working in the 'response' role. Unfortunately because of manning levels he often has to attend incidents unaccompanied, with doubtful possibilities of any backup. He's dealt with the dead and the dying. He's faced all manner of verbal and physical abuse. Every incident generates a myriad of paperwork to support a 'report' which means he spends more time filling in paperwork than he does preventing crime and disorder. Even when a report leads to a court appearance the case can be dismissed out of hand because the court is over-booked. People have walked away from a court scot-free because there wasn't time in the schedule for the case against them to be heard!
The police are hard pressed to do a thankless job and things are getting worse. Little wonder cynicism sets in.
The next time you decide to have a 'pop' at a policeman or women because they are not giving you their full attention think on this - have they really just come from a donut shop or have they just come from telling a mother her child has been killed in an RTA.

John Little
12-Oct-11, 17:49
The problem, in a nutshell, is here.

I recognise what is said in this document very well indeed...


http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/PublicAndThePolice.pdf

sandyr1
12-Oct-11, 19:31
David - I think that's how they would like to be perceived. Those points are supposed to be Robert Peel's principles when he set the police up in 1828 though authorship is disputed. Personally I could dispute every one of them in my own dealings with Kent police. They are not the public imho but an arm of the state whose purpose is social control. The rest is propaganda and wishful thinking.

Gronnuck
At first I wasn't going to comment on this 'Garbage Statement', but I am glad that someone else understands..
The originator of this thread has done this before/ totally anti Police, and to our detriment this man is supposed to be a 'Super Educator'.. A Professor..perhaps this is why so many people have an attitude towards Police. This is a man who lauded himself in one thread for getting some kindergarten child to graduate!

I personally think that this 'junk writing', this anti Police stance does no one any good, particularly our younger people.
Yes there are problems but the Police are human beings like the rest of us. They have their good and bad days and some interpret the law differently. I supervised many over the years, and as long as the job is done then we have been successfull.
If some people have issues with the Law/ the way it is being enforced or any other issues, they should contact the appropriate authorities
and get it resolved there, not bring up a totally Anti Police Thread. As I said this is not the first time...but I am sure this person will again complain about me to his Buddy the Mod, and perhaps I shall get another Official Warning...The last time it was for asking who he was. It is patently obvious who this man is as he says so himself, with 'letters' behind his name, with his occupation etc etc connected to Facebook, but the reason I asked was that I could not believe one who is supposed to be a Professional, could think up such drivel!
I hate getting into this, but someone has to say enough is enough.

Gronnuck
12-Oct-11, 20:20
All the high minded principles don’t count for diddlie-squat when you’re struggling with a junkie who’s about to leap from a ten storey window while his neighbours (the public?) yell encouragement. It’s easy for the armchair pundits to criticise a policeman who has been a bit off hand with them when he’s spent the morning cutting down a young mother to try and save her after she’s hung herself from her upstairs landing. Many members of our police service witness appalling behaviour every day, many are visited by tragedy every day – how can they possibly be ‘the public.’ The world is very different from the one Robert Peel knew when he started out.
As for the critics - there's always the Police Complaints Commission.

John Little
12-Oct-11, 20:56
Gronnuck - I do not disagree with what you say, and I'm glad that you ask 'how can they possibly be the public?' The answer of course is that they cannot be.

My cousin is a policeman and he would agree with what you say.

The Peelian principles are clearly out of date.

But I would be very curious to know what you think of Hannah Sergeant's executive summary - not the whole document for it is just a re-statement of what is in the summary.

Would we have better policing if local control were re-instated, and would public perception of the Police be improved if they were not under direct Home Office control?

What she says about Middle class Middle aged people losing faith in the Police is, in my experience, very true.

The Police Complaints Commission refers complaints to the force being complained about for resolution. It does not provide independent resolution but accepts as default what the complained about force does. It is not a satisfactory mechanism for the actions of a minority of officers who, in our case, were way out of line. The PCC resolved our problem but in the process they destroyed my faith in our local force. If you are curious I can tell you more thought it's a bit tedious.

bekisman
12-Oct-11, 22:42
but I am sure this person will again complain about me to his Buddy the Mod, and perhaps I shall get another Official Warning....
Come on John; who's your 'buddy'?

ducati
12-Oct-11, 22:47
Well we all have our own experiences. Mine with the local bizzys in Manchester when they were being a bit Nazi about motorbikes, but I have to say they were firm but fair (unless you were being a particular earse).:lol:

golach
12-Oct-11, 23:01
Come on John; who's your 'buddy'?
Awwww come on Bekisman, I could tell you, but I would have to fall on my sword.

Bazeye
13-Oct-11, 00:22
They are not the public imho but an arm of the state whose purpose is social control.

I know that John and so do you. What time did everyone else set their alarm clocks for?

Bazeye
13-Oct-11, 00:24
Awwww come on Bekisman, I could tell you, but I would have to fall on my sword.

The Pen is, mightier than the sword. Ken Dodd gets my gist.

Gronnuck
13-Oct-11, 00:28
Gronnuck - I do not disagree with what you say, and I'm glad that you ask 'how can they possibly be the public?' The answer of course is that they cannot be.

My cousin is a policeman and he would agree with what you say.

The Peelian principles are clearly out of date.

But I would be very curious to know what you think of Hannah Sergeant's executive summary - not the whole document for it is just a re-statement of what is in the summary.

I am sceptical about anything written by an academic or a journalist in judgement of an organisation where the people on the ground routinely deal with the worse elements in society and the tragic aftermath. Those same people are then expected to maintain their composure when everyone from the Home Office down questions their every decision/action/report. Harriet Sergeant said she gathered her research by hanging around police stations interviewing police officers. I suggest she gets out and about in all weathers, get her hands dirty and do a proper job!


Would we have better policing if local control were re-instated, and would public perception of the Police be improved if they were not under direct Home Office control?

I have no doubt public perception of the Police could be improved if control was more local. This in itself could not guarantee better policing and a decision would then have to be made about what form that local control would take. In all honesty I can't see the grubbiement allowing local control.


What she says about Middle class Middle aged people losing faith in the Police is, in my experience, very true.

People have every right to be worried. The police are working on a knife edge. Many communities are teetering on the edge of anarchy. EVERY incident/call out requires a mountain of paperwork. Think about it; someone visits your street three or four times a month and throws bricks through you and your neighbours' car windows before running off. The police get called to the scene to find either no one has seen the perpetrator or are unwilling to identify him/her. The police have wasted their time but will give you a crime report number so you and your neighbours can claim off your car insurance. What else would you want them to do? They certainly can't post an officer at each end of your street and guard it all night.


The Police Complaints Commission refers complaints to the force being complained about for resolution. It does not provide independent resolution but accepts as default what the complained about force does. It is not a satisfactory mechanism for the actions of a minority of officers who, in our case, were way out of line. The PCC resolved our problem but in the process they destroyed my faith in our local force. If you are curious I can tell you more thought it's a bit tedious.

I can imagine as with any other profession there will be a proportion of miscreants and layabouts. A regional independent investigative body might work better.

I could rattle on all night but I'm not going to, I'm off to bed.

Bazeye
13-Oct-11, 00:29
http://forum.caithness.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by sandyr1 http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=895391#post895391)
but I am sure this person will again complain about me to his Buddy the Mod, and perhaps I shall get another Official Warning....

Wear 'em with pride. Its only a yellow card on a forum, nothing will happen to you.

John Little
13-Oct-11, 08:36
Gronnuck - thanks for a well considered reply- I find it very helpful.

Baz - on what you said - that's why Harriet Sergeant thought that restoring control of the Police to Councils or Boroughs might be better because then they would not be dominated by government targets and paperwork, but by local policing. If they were accountable locally then she thinks the service would improve. I incline to that view and they would not be seen to be an arm of government, but genuinely of the public.

Bekisman; the implication that a Mod would do what I say must be deeply offensive to that Mod, whoever they may be. It implies they have no integrity whatsoever and are not capable of being impartial.

At any rate please take no notice - it seems to originate from someone on my ignore list whose rants I regard in the same light as I would those of a raving lunatic.

bekisman
13-Oct-11, 10:53
Bekisman; the implication that a Mod would do what I say must be deeply offensive to that Mod, whoever they may be. It implies they have no integrity whatsoever and are not capable of being impartial.

At any rate please take no notice - it seems to originate from someone on my ignore list whose rants I regard in the same light as I would those of a raving lunatic.Quite agree (offensive to an unknown Mod).. one presumes that 'someone' has crossed the boundary and received a smack on the wrist.. Although be interesting to see who this 'Mod' is.
Go on Golach; fall on your sword - don't keep these unsavoury hints floating around - get it out into the open, there's nothing to loose, and so much to gain..

Kells
13-Oct-11, 11:45
Gronnuck - thanks for a well considered reply- I find it very helpful.

Baz - on what you said - that's why Harriet Sergeant thought that restoring control of the Police to Councils or Boroughs might be better because then they would not be dominated by government targets and paperwork, but by local policing. If they were accountable locally then she thinks the service would improve. I incline to that view and they would not be seen to be an arm of government, but genuinely of the public.

Bekisman; the implication that a Mod would do what I say must be deeply offensive to that Mod, whoever they may be. It implies they have no integrity whatsoever and are not capable of being impartial.

At any rate please take no notice - it seems to originate from someone on my ignore list whose rants I regard in the same light as I would those of a raving lunatic.

I do not know about the English Police system but would suggest you read http://www.police-information.co.uk/policeinscotland.html which gives accurate information rather than an opinion.

John Little
13-Oct-11, 12:01
Thankyou - interesting!

It may well be different in Scotland - Scottish law is so much more civilised in some areas than English that I could well believe it. The system of house purchase is something England would do well to adopt.

Civitas is a well regarded think tank, often cited on the news, and its researchers are generally regarded as being well qualified to form opinions based on their painstaking methods - which is why they have so much influence in advising governments.

It was this bit that I found most disturbing;

"The public have no power to influence policing. All decisions are taken by politicians and their appointees, but there is no accountability within the system. Since the Police Act 1964 successive governments have accrued power to the centre."

She draws a contrast between this situation and the US where there is a lot more accountability- and it made me wonder if US style elected Police chiefs would put more accountability into the system and make policing more 'of the people' than at present where they are an instrument of governance.

oldmarine
13-Oct-11, 16:02
During my time spent in Scotland & England I never had any problems with law-enforcement authorities while driving or whatever. I believe it was because I obeyed the laws set down by the authorities. If I were to disobey any laws I could expect to be warned about it by the authorities. Most of the problems of which I have read about appear to be committed by young people who are still learning. We older people would have no excuse as we have been around long enough to have learned by now. I have learned that older people's reflexes are much slower and perhaps should take that into consideration when they do drive.

Kells
13-Oct-11, 16:37
Thankyou - interesting!

It may well be different in Scotland - Scottish law is so much more civilised in some areas than English that I could well believe it. The system of house purchase is something England would do well to adopt.

Civitas is a well regarded think tank, often cited on the news, and its researchers are generally regarded as being well qualified to form opinions based on their painstaking methods - which is why they have so much influence in advising governments.

It was this bit that I found most disturbing;

"The public have no power to influence policing. All decisions are taken by politicians and their appointees, but there is no accountability within the system. Since the Police Act 1964 successive governments have accrued power to the centre."

She draws a contrast between this situation and the US where there is a lot more accountability- and it made me wonder if US style elected Police chiefs would put more accountability into the system and make policing more 'of the people' than at present where they are an instrument of governance.
In Scotland the Chief Constable is responsible for the running of his local area and his performance is accountable to a number of different officials and also to the public. The Police are there to implement the law of the land as set out by Parliament who are elected by the people and that is where society plays it part and I for one would not wish to have local council etc telling the professionals how to do their job.

John Little
13-Oct-11, 16:54
I was not suggesting that local politicians tell professionals how to do their job. I am suggesting however the there should be more direct accountability at a local level if they do it wrongly.

My wife and I broke no law - indeed we were the victim of a crime. The Police then compounded the crime and in seeking redress we found ourselves up against a seemingly arbitrary and largely unaccountable power that just would not listen to us. I had to kick up a lot of stink and go to a lot of trouble to be heard - and that should not be necessary.

In the end the Kent Police paid us compensation for what they had done but it was like pulling teeth; no apology, no expression of regret. I am speaking of a very senior level too, not ordinary coppers.

It should not be like that,

Kells
13-Oct-11, 17:04
I was not suggesting that local politicians tell professionals how to do their job. I am suggesting however the there should be more direct accountability at a local level if they do it wrongly.

My wife and I broke no law - indeed we were the victim of a crime. The Police then compounded the crime and in seeking redress we found ourselves up against a seemingly arbitrary and largely unaccountable power that just would not listen to us. I had to kick up a lot of stink and go to a lot of trouble to be heard - and that should not be necessary.

In the end the Kent Police paid us compensation for what they had done but it was like pulling teeth; no apology, no expression of regret. I am speaking of a very senior level too, not ordinary coppers.

It should not be like that,

I have had one occasion to register a complaint about local police officers conduct and it went right to the Chief Constable. This resulted in a visit from the Assistant Chief Constable with apologies and the matter dealt with at once so perhaps the English system could learn from the Scottish system on how to deal with complaints.

John Little
13-Oct-11, 17:09
Heavens! I wish that applied down here!

After the theft of my wife's car I had to go to the local papers to get justice.

oldmarine
13-Oct-11, 18:11
Heavens! I wish that applied down here!

After the theft of my wife's car I had to go to the local papers to get justice.
John: It should not be like that. You should have had assistance from the local authorities.

Kells
13-Oct-11, 18:48
Heavens! I wish that applied down here!

After the theft of my wife's car I had to go to the local papers to get justice.

Nothing else for it then ......... you will have to move up here. lol

John Little
13-Oct-11, 18:49
Nothing else for it then ......... you will have to move up here. lol

LOL! I've had a few folk say that this last few weeks. Mrs L needs to be near her grandkids....

Kells
13-Oct-11, 19:45
thats what I call having the right priorities

John Little
13-Oct-11, 19:50
But they're doon south! :(

Kells
13-Oct-11, 19:57
Tough .... you do as you are told and like it. lol

John Little
13-Oct-11, 20:03
Whine..... :(

ducati
13-Oct-11, 22:12
Whine..... :(

Don't move up here John, you can't drive on the road without a police car overtaking you causing you to have to give chase to check its speed and post your complaint on here.