View Full Version : Same sex marriages
weezer 316
11-Oct-11, 16:41
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-15256253
Can someone please enlighten me why religious groups can discriminate against homosexuals and its ok yet if I was t do the same thing I am a homophobic? And im pretty sure Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.
Damn religion
I think the bible does say something like, a man should not lay with another man or words to that effect.
I think the bible does say something like, a man should not lay with another man or words to that effect.
It says "man should not covet another man's ass" - that is something else altogether lol
oldmarine
11-Oct-11, 19:05
It says "man should not covet another man's ass" - that is something else altogether lol
That looks like a reading with double meaning. :lol:[lol]
orkneycadian
11-Oct-11, 19:09
I think the bible does say something like, a man should not lay with another man or words to that effect.
And if they do, then they should be put to death. So sayeth the Lord to Moses according to Leviticus.
Weezer...r u OK? You are stirring La Pot/ but you are correct.....
Leanne...A brilliant piece of logic/ well done!
It all depends on what you wish to believe - the Old or new Testament and that's if the current version of the bible is your book/guide/faith etc...
Assuming (as everybody does) that homosexuality is is a male thing Man shall not lay with man etc... says nothing about women... but most of these faiths don't or rarely do...
That's assuming man is superior and we all know they are ;)
And where does this predudice stop...
Thou shall take the smeg out of gingers...
Angel...
gingernut
11-Oct-11, 21:21
"And where does this predudice stop...
Thou shall take the smeg out of gingers..."
Don't you dare! Us gingernuts are a force to be reckoned with.....
As for the religious groups and their hypocrisy..... They really have got a nerve.
weezer 316
11-Oct-11, 21:24
Ahem, I was talking of jesus, you know, the person you all follow. I wonder why they dont follow the old testament fully unless its about homosexuals.
jesus said nothing of the issue. I know, I have read the bible.
Still, can someone explan why this is seen as ok as its a kooky religious belief, yet they complain about discrimiation for their religious beleifs?
orkneycadian
11-Oct-11, 21:25
Assuming (as everybody does) that homosexuality is is a male thing Man shall not lay with man etc... says nothing about women... but most of these faiths don't or rarely do...
On the whole, the girls get off not too badly in Leviticus - Although some of them must have been getting up to some fairly shocking behaviour in biblical times! ;)
linnie612
11-Oct-11, 21:44
Ahem, I was talking of jesus, you know, the person you all follow. I wonder why they dont follow the old testament fully unless its about homosexuals.
jesus said nothing of the issue. I know, I have read the bible.
Still, can someone explan why this is seen as ok as its a kooky religious belief, yet they complain about discrimiation for their religious beleifs?
Totally agree. Its like following the highway code but disregarding say, the bit on junctions, because that is not the way you wish to drive!
All faiths as I see it, believe what suits them in the situation at the time to get brownie point for whomever... God gets pushed further to the back in the pursuit of religion. God is part of us, so therefore we are part of God. Religion is 'man' made... an interpretation of whatever keeps a leader/controller at the top.
Each religion is a facet of the same thing, and each facet has its own rules/order and membership.
Often these facets clash which blurs the truth... Kooky to some I suppose in these more enlightened times likes lots of 'kooky' biblical rules... Probably misunderstood in the days of the ignorant or easily lead...
Angel...
The problem is very few Christians have read the Bible cover-to-cover, instead they have sections cherry picked and interpreted for them. The few people that do read it cover-to-cover usually have a companion guide that completely changes the meaning or their own 'true' translation that completely changes the meaning.
Leviticus, where that quote comes from has other things to say that people don't follow as closely, not at all really. The Christian church, actually most if not all religion is like a bully that constantly picked on people when they were younger (dark ages/medieval times) and then gets upset and runs crying when they fight back in later years.
On a side note: the Bible (old and new testaments) hates women, it despises them.
thou shall not drinketh from the furry goblet
Kevin Milkins
11-Oct-11, 22:30
All faiths as I see it, believe what suits them in the situation at the time to get brownie point for whomever...
No pun intended.:lol:[lol]
weezer 316
11-Oct-11, 22:35
Sorry, I will say now, I am not looking to turn this into a religion bashing exercise, nor convert anyone. I asm asking why people of faith complain about discrimiation stemming from theri beliefs, yet are more than happy to dish it out. Could someone square that with me please? Its a bit like me condemming murder then killing someone.
People of faith say these things, usually in front of others for the brownie points so others can see this great guy/gal etc and can be happy and blissful in a wonderful sugar coated existance... Sharing the love...
How can she wear white when pegnant... sharing the hate...
We all do it...
Angel...
It does seem unfair and unreasonable for some religious groups to discriminate against gay people. They should keep their rules within their churches and not try and impose them on society. Intrestingly Jesus was not married and was always hanging out with other men.
oldmarine
11-Oct-11, 23:43
That's assuming man is superior and we all know they are ;)Angel...
My wife will argue that point. :lol:
sassylass
11-Oct-11, 23:51
My wife will argue that point. :lol:
oldmarine, you are a gem!
Faith brings people together, religion divides them...
Sorry, I will say now, I am not looking to turn this into a religion bashing exercise, nor convert anyone. I asm asking why people of faith complain about discrimiation stemming from theri beliefs, yet are more than happy to dish it out. Could someone square that with me please? Its a bit like me condemming murder then killing someone.
Glib as it seems and despite what they say, religious people are hypocrites with a lack of empathy. It's basically more personal to them when it happens to them - In both situations they only care when it has an impact on them.
Assuming (as everybody does) that homosexuality is is a male thing Man shall not lay with man etc... says nothing about women... Angel...
I've always believed that 'Man' in this quote refers to the species, not the gender.
It all depends on what you wish to believe - the Old or new Testament and that's if the current version of the bible is your book/guide/faith etc...
Assuming (as everybody does) that homosexuality is is a male thing Man shall not lay with man etc... says nothing about women... but most of these faiths don't or rarely do...
That's assuming man is superior and we all know they are ;)
And where does this predudice stop...
Thou shall take the smeg out of gingers...
Angel...
I'm assuming you mean an anti-lesbian quote, one comes to mind:
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Sorry, I will say now, I am not looking to turn this into a religion bashing exercise, nor convert anyone. I asm asking why people of faith complain about discrimiation stemming from theri beliefs, yet are more than happy to dish it out. Could someone square that with me please? Its a bit like me condemming murder then killing someone.
Because religion is about do-as-I-say and not do-as-I-do.The fervour and sentiment of a mass/religious celebration of any kind lasts as long as it takes to get to the exit door of the place of worship, where real life hits you and stepping over the beggar to get out, you make your first cut and paste to edit your choosen religion to what you think best reflects yourself. And because we love sitting in judgement, we condemn everything different to ourselves.
I have no religion, I believe there is no God and never was a Jesus ...........and there is no heaven or hell!!
I have my own views on homosexuality, not what others have pushed down my throat. But of course I must keep my thoughts to myself because the law say's I must!!!
C3.............:roll:
Simple reply to the original post, double standards, it's a classic case of "Don't do what I do, do what I tell you."
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-11, 23:07
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-15256253
Can someone please enlighten me why religious groups can discriminate against homosexuals and its ok yet if I was t do the same thing I am a homophobic? And im pretty sure Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.
Damn religionWeezy, why are you complaining about a religious group discriminating against homosexuals, whilst at the same time posting bigoted crap about Apple users?
Plus the worst thing about apple is the very people who buy their products. I have never seen such smug eejits in all my life. I swear their machines wont turn on unless you answer 10 question from the book of jobs.
Your behaviour is as bad as that of any religion. Do you praise (and pray to) Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman before you go to bed at night?
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-11, 23:08
Simple reply to the original post, double standards, it's a classic case of "Don't do what I do, do what I tell you."Yes, that sums up weezy rather well. :cool:
rogermellie
12-Oct-11, 23:32
I have my own views on homosexuality, not what others have pushed down my throat.
C3.............:roll:
no pun intended ...... hopefully
secrets in symmetry
12-Oct-11, 23:55
no pun intended ...... hopefullyLol! Does that mean you hope he meant it literally?
rogermellie
13-Oct-11, 00:08
the thought of homosexuality being pushed down corries throat gives me no pleasure .... nor, i assume did it give him any
no pun intended ...... hopefully
Depends if it was forced or offered.
Anyone else think this thread is turning into a "Carry On" script.
Anyone else think this thread is turning into a "Carry On" script.
Carry on up the Khyber ???...........:eek:
C3...........Is having a Gay day!!..:roll:;)
Weezy, why are you complaining about a religious group discriminating against homosexuals, whilst at the same time posting bigoted crap about Apple users? Your behaviour is as bad as that of any religion. Do you praise (and pray to) Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman before you go to bed at night? Is this a bit of an over reaction, I don't think he advocates stopping people buying Apple stuff, burning or torturing them or saying they'll rot for eternity because a magic sky fairy says so. He's not saying that Apple users shouldn't be allowed to marry or stay at a Bed and Breakfast either.
weezer 316
13-Oct-11, 12:34
Weezy, why are you complaining about a religious group discriminating against homosexuals, whilst at the same time posting bigoted crap about Apple users?
Your behaviour is as bad as that of any religion. Do you praise (and pray to) Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman before you go to bed at night?
Cheers recquery!
If you cant see the difference between me slagging apple and people discrimination against homiosexuals then hte issue is your sunshine! As RQ said, I dont advocate such nonsense as stopping apple users from marrying (alhtouhg who would marry one?!?!?!) and or stopping them staying in B&B's! Quite how thast comparable can you explain please bar the fact i am criticlal of a group and product for the reasons I had stated?
Whilst we are at it, can you explain why people justify discrimation based on the mad book of murder and rape they ctie for their morality? Or am I "offending" those with such views?
I swear hypocrisy and religion meant the same thing back long ago, and the words have just digressed.
Live & let live i think Weezer, i understand why that particular groups stance on same sex marriage would make you angry but you do not have to say damn religion, im not a fan of religion myself but i dont hold grudges against one select faith based on the actions of certain narrow minded individuals within that certain denomination
Live & let live i think Weezer, i understand why that particular groups stance on same sex marriage would make you angry but you do not have to say damn religion, im not a fan of religion myself but i dont hold grudges against one select faith based on the actions of certain narrow minded individuals within that certain denomination I appreciate that point, but I think his point is that hate of certain groups in enshrined into the holy books and depending on the denomination of that religion they interpret their books differently some consider them parables and nice stories, while others consider them the adulterated word of god to be interpreted literally. This could even vary within the individual denominations we're not talking some crazy person standing outside with a megaphone either these groups are a substantial influence, they're more a US thing but they are gaining support over here and in other countries.
"Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse." - Christopher Hitchens
Can someone please enlighten me why religious groups can discriminate against homosexuals and its ok yet if I was t do the same thing I am a homophobic? And im pretty sure Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.
Damn religion
First, passages against homosexuality are found in both the old and new testaments. If it was only in the old it would still be a firm belief as Jesus said he came not to destroy the law and the prophets - but to fulfil them. There has been some talk of believers not following the rules of the law. Please find me any passage of the old or new testaments I am failing on and I will repent.
I do not believe there is the double standard you refer to for Christians and the non-religious, I think that according to the laws of this country you may say anything you wish about homosexuality, you may also say anything you wish about Christianity and my Lord Jesus, as long as you are not threatening or inciting violence. No one has minced their words in this thread when discussing the Christian faith. In fact, someone alluded to my Lord and Saviour being a homosexual; something that has found its way into modern literature and I have been confronted with before. There is no punishment for this (not from the British government anyway, though perhaps you should think hard on the state of your eternal soul).
I remember when homosexuality was on the fringes, and everyone was slightly revolted by the thought of it (very much within my living memory, and I am quite young). As it gained acceptance, one of the standard thoughts I remember being bandied about was 'what people choose to do in their bedrooms doesn't affect anyone else'. This does not seem to have been the case however, as now if I did not want to be associated with that lifestyle, I would most certainly be prosecuted. I could not run a B&B, become a photographer, or an employer. I do not feel very welcome in this country (which I am sure some of you are glad of!) and imagine in not long, I will be forced to live elsewhere.
As it is, it matters little to me personally if the state decides to allow gay marriage (although, it should matter to the country a great deal). I myself did not get a marriage certificate and instead am married only in the eyes of heaven, not the law.
In my eyes, and the eyes of God, homosexuality is a sin. Bestiality is a sin. Sleeping with someone before the last person you had sex with died is a sin. Yes, the punishment in the old testament was death. I am not the law, I am not going to carry out stonings and shootings, all I do is ferverantly hope that the person may see the redeeming glory of my Lord Jesus and be saved.
oldmarine
13-Oct-11, 15:48
I've always believed that 'Man' in this quote refers to the species, not the gender.
That is the general belief. The word 'woman' is a good example. From the word 'wo man', we get man. I guess you can take that to mean whatever you want it to mean, but I always understood it to mean as 'Beat Bug' explained it.
weezer 316
13-Oct-11, 16:22
First, passages against homosexuality are found in both the old and new testaments. If it was only in the old it would still be a firm belief as Jesus said he came not to destroy the law and the prophets - but to fulfil them. There has been some talk of believers not following the rules of the law. Please find me any passage of the old or new testaments I am failing on and I will repent.
I do not believe there is the double standard you refer to for Christians and the non-religious, I think that according to the laws of this country you may say anything you wish about homosexuality, you may also say anything you wish about Christianity and my Lord Jesus, as long as you are not threatening or inciting violence. No one has minced their words in this thread when discussing the Christian faith. In fact, someone alluded to my Lord and Saviour being a homosexual; something that has found its way into modern literature and I have been confronted with before. There is no punishment for this (not from the British government anyway, though perhaps you should think hard on the state of your eternal soul).
I remember when homosexuality was on the fringes, and everyone was slightly revolted by the thought of it (very much within my living memory, and I am quite young). As it gained acceptance, one of the standard thoughts I remember being bandied about was 'what people choose to do in their bedrooms doesn't affect anyone else'. This does not seem to have been the case however, as now if I did not want to be associated with that lifestyle, I would most certainly be prosecuted. I could not run a B&B, become a photographer, or an employer. I do not feel very welcome in this country (which I am sure some of you are glad of!) and imagine in not long, I will be forced to live elsewhere.
As it is, it matters little to me personally if the state decides to allow gay marriage (although, it should matter to the country a great deal). I myself did not get a marriage certificate and instead am married only in the eyes of heaven, not the law.
In my eyes, and the eyes of God, homosexuality is a sin. Bestiality is a sin. Sleeping with someone before the last person you had sex with died is a sin. Yes, the punishment in the old testament was death. I am not the law, I am not going to carry out stonings and shootings, all I do is ferverantly hope that the person may see the redeeming glory of my Lord Jesus and be saved.
urgrh....
Right you dont feel welcome in this country and dare i say it feel dicsrimarted against because of your beliefs. Yet you clearly advocate discrimating against homosexuals. Thats is a pot callimng a kettle black. Surely you can see that snow? if you cant then its something akin to doublethink from 1984.
If you dont support stoning someone to death for said crimes, or rape in the lords name then I put to you that your more moral than the god you believe in and who apparently defines what sin is. How do you square that in your head? and crucually, do you recognise your going to hell for ignorng the word of god?
Nowhere do I say I feel 'discriminated' against. No one has attacked me for my beliefs (I do not share them often, but you asked a direct question and I felt no one had responded with a Christian view point). I am advocating nothing. I have no power over legislation, I do not have any say over the government of this country. I simply wished to state that your initial view that the rights of Christians in this country somehow trump the rights of homosexuals is flawed.
I also did not say that I do not support the death penalty. The bible states that you should be subject to the laws of the country you are residing in (apart from where they interfere with your worship of the Lord God). The law of the bible is not now upheld in any country (although it was once in Israel, and for a long time, the laws of this country were based upon it). As an aside - where do you think the bible condones or encourages rape?
I know for a fact that I have sinned. I am not perfect, and I know that I truly, truly deserve hell. However I have an advocate, a great King and my deliverer who has atoned for all of my sin, and has given me life and life eternal. I am not afraid of hell, I am not afraid of death.
oldmarine
13-Oct-11, 18:17
I know for a fact that I have sinned. I am not perfect, and I know that I truly, truly deserve hell. However I have an advocate, a great King and my deliverer who has atoned for all of my sin, and has given me life and life eternal. I am not afraid of hell, I am not afraid of death.You have stated it very well. That's what Christians have been taught. I suspect that non-believers believe otherwise. They will have to deal with that when the end-times comes for everyone.
weezer 316
13-Oct-11, 18:33
Snow.
Your first point alludes to what I was asking, namely why do some groups and people think that it does give them a right to over ride other peoples rights based on the bible. I am saying it shouldnt. I am asking why some think it does.
I never said you support the death penalty for the crimes mentioned! I said if you dont support that penalty you are more moral than the god you worship as giver of absolute morality! Does that make sense? im saying your ahead of your faith, way ahead of it!
As for you "sins" I couldnt care less. What you do is your business. im sure your sin pales in comparison to the sins god has endorsed in the bible.
As for rape endorsed by by god, i can only assume you havent read the bible. Here are a few examples (I double checked them just to make sure with the bible here)
Judges 21:10-24 NLT
Numbers 31:7-18 NLT
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB
Snow.
Your first point alludes to what I was asking, namely why do some groups and people think that it does give them a right to over ride other peoples rights based on the bible. I am saying it shouldnt. I am asking why some think it does.
I never said you support the death penalty for the crimes mentioned! I said if you dont support that penalty you are more moral than the god you worship as giver of absolute morality! Does that make sense? im saying your ahead of your faith, way ahead of it!
As for you "sins" I couldnt care less. What you do is your business. im sure your sin pales in comparison to the sins god has endorsed in the bible.
As for rape endorsed by by god, i can only assume you havent read the bible. Here are a few examples (I double checked them just to make sure with the bible here)
Judges 21:10-24 NLT
Numbers 31:7-18 NLT
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB
I'll add a few more to the rape list, following your format:
2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB - (David's Punishment)
Judges 5:30 NAB - (Spoils of war)
Judges 19:24-25 KJV (Father offers his virgin daughter to a drunken mob to save some male pilgrims from rape)
Exodus 21:7-11 NLT (Forced sex slavery)
Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB (God assists in rape and murder)
The individual translation really doesn't matter, the same things are said in each version in a slightly different way. So I suppose I should ask if you accept the Bibles stance on homosexuality and other things, why not this or hell I can pick any distasteful topic you want and quote. I even have quotes from the New Testament or whatever your denomination calls it.
One thing that has bothered me for a long while is the emotional actions of those in the middle east. You see it on the TV when somebody is killed, wailing, screaming etc. I, feel this is over the top (compared to the stiff upper lip way we westerners deal with emotion). These people are not afraid to display their emotion. Often these people are poor and uneducated, even in the 21st century...
Now go back 2000 years, how poor, uneducated and superstisious these people were, how much more they were like sponges to whatever was offered/shown to them.
With only a few who could put down on paper what was witnessed and told to them often years later, coloured and clouded and sometimes past down to them. Is what we read actually the truth. Or a version of it. Then there is the translation from one language to another, the there is the editing, then there is this version and that version... all done by man... as I said earlier, God is pushed further to the back.
I believe in God, I believe Jesus existed and did what was/is deemed to be good. But religion you can keep it.
I go to church every Sunday (often different churches) and the different versions you get of the same story and the preachers interpretation is just a farce. And that's not even taking into account the contexts in which these words/verses/versions are offered to the people in the pews...
Angel...
As the big guy might have said: Consider the pansies of the field.
Oh dear, what a lot of very odd ideas about Christianity. The Bible was written by men, some inspired much definitely not and much of it not written by those whose names are attached to it. I am not a scholar but I am prepared to accept what those who have studied the Bible in depth tell me. The only thing that matters for "true" Christians is that God is love and Jesus came to tell us that. God's love is unconditional and eternal for everyone, no matter what. It's mankind wanting power over others that has made up all the unloving rules and given religion such a bad reputation. No-one has a right to condemn others because they were born different from them or to call that difference a "sin".
weezer 316
14-Oct-11, 21:39
Gods love is eternal and uncoditional?? brilliant. What if you masterbate? Or are gay? Or eat pork? Or had sex before marriage? Or ignored bits of the bible? Or commited mass murder?
Gods love is eternal and uncoditional?? brilliant.
You probably mean "unconditional," but yes, that is Christian philosophy.
What if you masterbate? Or are gay? Or eat pork? Or had sex before marriage? Or ignored bits of the bible? Or commited mass murder?
I expect you mean "masturbate" and "committed," as these are real words, but anyway:
You tell us "what if." Are you attaching conditions to unconditional love?
Oh dear, what a lot of very odd ideas about Christianity. The Bible was written by men, some inspired much definitely not and much of it not written by those whose names are attached to it. I am not a scholar but I am prepared to accept what those who have studied the Bible in depth tell me. The only thing that matters for "true" Christians is that God is love and Jesus came to tell us that. God's love is unconditional and eternal for everyone, no matter what. It's mankind wanting power over others that has made up all the unloving rules and given religion such a bad reputation. No-one has a right to condemn others because they were born different from them or to call that difference a "sin".
I've seen this a lot. I call it postmodern-Christianity. The Anglican and Episcopalian churches are big on it. I suppose my question would be then which parts are be be interpreted literally and which parts are parables and morality tales; what differentiates them? There's no convention for marking that within the bible, no primary source material, no credible historical context. What's a 'true Christian'? who gets to say what that is, hasn't every sect and denomination claimed there were that.
Yes, Christianity has made up a lot of things, co-opted others. Different book of the bible even directly contradict each other., it still contains some heinous stuff, yes even the new testament and yes even stuff said directly by Jesus.
What if I didn't believe in a god and if such an entity were to exist - a completely hypothetical assumption and for the sake of argument - then that would put me below a serial killer that repented on his deathbed according to the bible and Christian teachings.
God love is not unconditional, must we really provide quotes again.
secrets in symmetry
14-Oct-11, 23:46
Is this a bit of an over reaction, I don't think he advocates stopping people buying Apple stuff, burning or torturing them or saying they'll rot for eternity because a magic sky fairy says so. He's not saying that Apple users shouldn't be allowed to marry or stay at a Bed and Breakfast either.It's worse than that. He's displaying Nazi tendencies by classifying all Apple users as inferior to him....
Cheers recquery!
If you cant see the difference between me slagging apple and people discrimination against homiosexuals then hte issue is your sunshine! As RQ said, I dont advocate such nonsense as stopping apple users from marrying (alhtouhg who would marry one?!?!?!) and or stopping them staying in B&B's! Quite how thast comparable can you explain please bar the fact i am criticlal of a group and product for the reasons I had stated?
Whilst we are at it, can you explain why people justify discrimation based on the mad book of murder and rape they ctie for their morality? Or am I "offending" those with such views?
I swear hypocrisy and religion meant the same thing back long ago, and the words have just digressed.Do you see what I mean? He wouldn't marry an Apple user - just like a bigoted Protestant wouldn't marry a Catholic, or a bigoted Catholic wouldn't marry a protestant. Our friend Weezy is more religious than the genuinely religious....
weezer 316
14-Oct-11, 23:52
You probably mean "unconditional," but yes, that is Christian philosophy.
I expect you mean "masturbate" and "committed," as these are real words, but anyway:
You tell us "what if." Are you attaching conditions to unconditional love?
You know what I mean. Im asking you what if? What if you do thise things? Is his live unconditional then? Do I still get to go to heaven if I have done all those things?
weezer 316
14-Oct-11, 23:54
I've seen this a lot. I call it postmodern-Christianity. The Anglican and Episcopalian churches are big on it. I suppose my question would be then which parts are be be interpreted literally and which parts are parables and morality tales; what differentiates them? There's no convention for marking that within the bible, no primary source material, no credible historical context. What's a 'true Christian'? who gets to say what that is, hasn't every sect and denomination claimed there were that.
Yes, Christianity has made up a lot of things, co-opted others. Different book of the bible even directly contradict each other., it still contains some heinous stuff, yes even the new testament and yes even stuff said directly by Jesus.
What if I didn't believe in a god and if such an entity were to exist - a completely hypothetical assumption and for the sake of argument - then that would put me below a serial killer that repented on his deathbed according to the bible and Christian teachings.
God love is not unconditional, must we really provide quotes again.
Good point, the interpretations of the bible amuse me no end. basically whatever doenst fit the zeitgeist of the time is a parable, otherwise it really happened. That would appear to be the general rule.
secrets in symmetry
14-Oct-11, 23:57
First, passages against homosexuality are found in both the old and new testaments. If it was only in the old it would still be a firm belief as Jesus said he came not to destroy the law and the prophets - but to fulfil them. There has been some talk of believers not following the rules of the law. Please find me any passage of the old or new testaments I am failing on and I will repent.
I do not believe there is the double standard you refer to for Christians and the non-religious, I think that according to the laws of this country you may say anything you wish about homosexuality, you may also say anything you wish about Christianity and my Lord Jesus, as long as you are not threatening or inciting violence. No one has minced their words in this thread when discussing the Christian faith. In fact, someone alluded to my Lord and Saviour being a homosexual; something that has found its way into modern literature and I have been confronted with before. There is no punishment for this (not from the British government anyway, though perhaps you should think hard on the state of your eternal soul).
I remember when homosexuality was on the fringes, and everyone was slightly revolted by the thought of it (very much within my living memory, and I am quite young). As it gained acceptance, one of the standard thoughts I remember being bandied about was 'what people choose to do in their bedrooms doesn't affect anyone else'. This does not seem to have been the case however, as now if I did not want to be associated with that lifestyle, I would most certainly be prosecuted. I could not run a B&B, become a photographer, or an employer. I do not feel very welcome in this country (which I am sure some of you are glad of!) and imagine in not long, I will be forced to live elsewhere.
As it is, it matters little to me personally if the state decides to allow gay marriage (although, it should matter to the country a great deal). I myself did not get a marriage certificate and instead am married only in the eyes of heaven, not the law.
In my eyes, and the eyes of God, homosexuality is a sin. Bestiality is a sin. Sleeping with someone before the last person you had sex with died is a sin. Yes, the punishment in the old testament was death. I am not the law, I am not going to carry out stonings and shootings, all I do is ferverantly hope that the person may see the redeeming glory of my Lord Jesus and be saved.That is the best post I have seen on this forum for a long time. Thank you for sharing it with us.
redeyedtreefrog
14-Oct-11, 23:57
...Sleeping with someone before the last person you had sex with died is a sin...
Can you tell me where about in the bible it says that? I'd quite like to have the reference handy for pointing out the book's silly rules.
Also,
10514
I am interested Weezer on what you base your belief in there not being a God.
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 00:04
I am interested Weezer on what you base your belief in there not being a God.That's easy. It's his bigotry.
Read the Bible and the Qu'ran, both absolute bobbins. Give me an Iain Banks or an Ian Rankin anyday.
Read the Bible and the Qu'ran, both absolute bobbins. Give me an Iain Banks or an Ian Rankin anyday.
I didn't ask about what you read but on what you base your belief in there not being a God.
You know what I mean. Im asking you what if? What if you do thise things? Is his live unconditional then? Do I still get to go to heaven if I have done all those things?
Your question is stupid. If a doctrine says God's love is unconditional, do you really think that means "except if you play with yourself or with your girlfriend?"
If you had to be well-behaved to be loved by God, that would be a pretty big condition, wouldn't it?
Whether or not your eternal reward is a good one- well that's a whole other question.
weezer 316
15-Oct-11, 11:56
Your question is stupid. If a doctrine says God's love is unconditional, do you really think that means "except if you play with yourself or with your girlfriend?"
If you had to be well-behaved to be loved by God, that would be a pretty big condition, wouldn't it?
Whether or not your eternal reward is a good one- well that's a whole other question.
So, he loves you that much he will send you to hell forever for such things as masturbating?
GET A GRIP! Say that out loud. "God loves me so much i am going to hell FOREVER for masturbating...."
Its laughably absurd
weezer 316
15-Oct-11, 11:57
I am interested Weezer on what you base your belief in there not being a God.
There is almost certainyl no god becuase there is not evidence to say there is one. Its a bit like Unicorns. I dont believe in the either cause there is no evidence to say it exists. Do you believe unicorns exist?
So, he loves you that much he will send you to hell forever for such things as masturbating?
Why- who said he would do that?
GET A GRIP! Say that out loud. "God loves me so much i am going to hell FOREVER for masturbating...."
Why should I say that out loud?
Its laughably absurd
Something here is.
There is almost certainyl no god becuase there is not evidence to say there is one. Its a bit like Unicorns. I dont believe in the either cause there is no evidence to say it exists. Do you believe unicorns exist?
Then you are saying that there is no evidence to say there is no God in the same way as others will say there is a God. I am not talking about religion here but on personal belief that there is a supreme being regardless of the name given to him by those who believe. I cannot see why your opinion that there is no god has any more validity than those who say there is.
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 13:21
Then you are saying that there is no evidence to say there is no God in the same way as others will say there is a God. I am not talking about religion here but on personal belief that there is a supreme being regardless of the name given to him by those who believe. I cannot see why your opinion that there is no god has any more validity than those who say there is.You have forgotten that weezy is an expert on cosmology, and he knows that dark matter and dark energy explain everything.
You have forgotten that weezy is an expert on cosmology, and he knows that dark matter and dark energy explain everything.
Na that still does not give me an explanation lol, I'm still waiting to hear why he can be so certain that others are wrong and he is right.
Everyone is forgetting the one key thing... If you say sorry to God all is forgiven and you can go to heaven. It's the same for a gay person or a mass murderer - God says it's OK if you're sorry
weezer 316
15-Oct-11, 15:29
Then you are saying that there is no evidence to say there is no God in the same way as others will say there is a God. I am not talking about religion here but on personal belief that there is a supreme being regardless of the name given to him by those who believe. I cannot see why your opinion that there is no god has any more validity than those who say there is.
kells,
We have had the discussion before and we arrived at the conlcusion, not uinderstood by you, that belief, sincere, unadulteraed belief IS NOT EVEIDENCE! Its that simple. I say there is no god as there is no reason to think there is one, and no evidence to say a god exists. You reposnd with some crazy assertion that thats the same as belief, whcih it isnt.
Do you believe in unicorns???
kells,
We have had the discussion before and we arrived at the conlcusion, not uinderstood by you, that belief, sincere, unadulteraed belief IS NOT EVEIDENCE! Its that simple. I say there is no god as there is no reason to think there is one, and no evidence to say a god exists. You reposnd with some crazy assertion that thats the same as belief, whcih it isnt.
Do you believe in unicorns???
I fully understand the difference between rationality and believe in something without evidence. You have finally given me an answer though, and that is that you have no reason to think that there is not a God. As you have no evidence to say that God does not exist then that is simply a belief you hold, a sincere one which you have every right to have but is still simply a belief as there is no evidence of rational thinking to back up your belief.
weezer 316
15-Oct-11, 16:56
I fully understand the difference between rationality and believe in something without evidence. You have finally given me an answer though, and that is that you have no reason to think that there is not a God. As you have no evidence to say that God does not exist then that is simply a belief you hold, a sincere one which you have every right to have but is still simply a belief as there is no evidence of rational thinking to back up your belief.
Hahahahahahahahaha!!
I give in. You win. How can you possibly argue with sense like that! Your a genius.
Hahahahahahahahaha!!
I give in. You win. How can you possibly argue with sense like that! Your a genius.
It takes a big man to admit defeat, no genius though just married life for 47 years. lol
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 18:25
If I ever succeed in creating my own Universe, I'll spread the myth that everything was created by an all powerful God named Oryctolagus Cuniculus.
If I ever succeed in creating my own Universe, I'll spread the myth that everything was created by an all powerful God named Oryctolagus Cuniculus.
I like that; very funny.;)
weezer 316
15-Oct-11, 19:50
If I ever succeed in creating my own Universe, I'll spread the myth that everything was created by an all powerful God named Oryctolagus Cuniculus.
I think you already inhabit your own universe so no need to create another...
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 21:32
No Weezy, I inhabit the real world, and I don't worship Onan. Do you?
I have no religion, I believe there is no God and never was a Jesus ...........and there is no heaven or hell!!
I have my own views on homosexuality, not what others have pushed down my throat. But of course I must keep my thoughts to myself because the law say's I must!!!
C3.............:roll:
I'm with you on all counts, and know I am not allowed to say what I think about the alternative/homo fraternity. (What a waste of the good english word "Gay")
When it was private, it did not worry me, but i fear for people these days, you dare not utter an utterance.
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 21:43
I'm with you on all counts, and know I am not allowed to say what I think about the alternative/homo fraternity. (What a waste of the good english word "Gay")
When it was private, it did not worry me, but i fear for people these days, you dare not utter an utterance.
Oh God, you are definitely a worshipper of Onan! A real Richard.
redeyedtreefrog
15-Oct-11, 21:56
What a waste of the good english word "Gay"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtaPaQwSQPA (Maybe swearies)
First the rabbits and now Onan ! the most subtle insult I have heard yet. lol
Oh God, you are definitely a worshipper of Onan! A real Richard.I am the Resurrection and I am the Light
I think your lights gone out mate :-p
secrets in symmetry
15-Oct-11, 23:14
I encourage you to investigate autoerotic defenestration.
Did someone really raise the prove a negative thing again? Prove there's not an invisible pink unicorn standing next to me at all times, see sounds ridiculous. Just as ridiculous to me as prove there's not a god. The burden of proof is on the 'believers'. If a child comes to you and says some crazing thing, do you believe them without proof?
To say there is not a God is a positive assumption not based on fact and believes based on faith is a personal issue. You are not required to believe what others think to be true but neither are you required or able to disprove someone else's beliefs. There is no "burden of proof" on anyone to either believe or disbelieve.
To say there is not a God is a positive assumption not based on fact and believes based on faith is a personal issue. You are not required to believe what others think to be true but neither are you required or able to disprove someone else's beliefs. There is no "burden of proof" on anyone to either believe or disbelieve.
Okay as I don't need to prove anything then I consider myself Jesus Christ reincarnate, your saviour brought back to Earth.
Going on to this topic in general - not advocating any specific position - when you believe something despite the evidence then you're delusional. Getting back on to religion, I have a list of proofs that would convince me, is there anything that would change your mind?
I find it odd that a religious person is advocating post-modern relativism buy anyway:
All this is getting off-topic we've already done religion in other threads the core of this thread Is "Why do religious people feel they can speak and campaign against homosexuals and other groups but complain when the same is done to them".
weezer 316
17-Oct-11, 13:35
To say there is not a God is a positive assumption not based on fact and believes based on faith is a personal issue. You are not required to believe what others think to be true but neither are you required or able to disprove someone else's beliefs. There is no "burden of proof" on anyone to either believe or disbelieve.
You just dont get this do you! Until you are able to understand the point me and rec made you are stuck.
Not believing is simply an assertion to say there is no evidence to belive x. Thats not the same as beleiving in x despite no proof. I cant make that any clearer really. It a basic principle of reason.
Okay as I don't need to prove anything then I consider myself Jesus Christ reincarnate, your saviour brought back to Earth.
Feel free to consider yourself anyone you wish to be. lol
Going on to this topic in general - not advocating any specific position - when you believe something despite the evidence then you're delusional. Getting back on to religion, I have a list of proofs that would convince me, is there anything that would change your mind?
I would be interested to read your list of proofs as I have an open mind and would find it interesting.
I find it odd that a religious person is advocating post-modern relativism buy anyway:
Who said I was religious? I have not mentioned religion at any point simply a belief in god or if you like an unnamed power.
All this is getting off-topic we've already done religion in other threads the core of this thread Is "Why do religious people feel they can speak and campaign against homosexuals and other groups but complain when the same is done to them".
It has gone way of topic for some time. In this country free speech still exists and any group have the right to express themselves and to campaign when they wish to do so. I do not agree with them that homosexuals should not be allowed a civil ceremony to my mind they should have the same legal rights as every other person.That would also include being part of an organization in which there beliefs differ and can see no reason why they would wish to have a blessing on a marriage within an organisation simply because they wish to do so. If I were getting married again then I would not automaticly expect to make use of a church to which I did not belong when it suited me so see no reason why homosexuals should expect to do so.
just from the humble opinion of me.. *grins* I dont like to label myself as Christian anymore as it seems to be such a dirty word.. not because we believe in God and Jesus and the Trinity.. but because so many of our so called brothers and sisters have twisted the meaning of the word and turned it into a hate filled nasty thing. I personally love God, and speak to Him every day. when things get me down, or im happy or just need to say thank you or im sorry.. ive been a putz..
to me God is everywhere i go and part of everything i do...
now, on to the OP ... paul was really down on homosexuality.. but saying that he didnt want Godly men to marry at all.. and us girls was basically evil incarnate.. that went around tempting good godly men to sin.. and basically.. if a man could not control his earthly dirty lusts.. then he should marry so at least he could be a filthy beast under the law of God and beget more Godly males.. and a couple harlots so the species could propagate.
i really never liked Corinthians and well my personal opinion of Paul? get teh stick out man!
he does go into detail in the new testament about homosexuality.. but i would personally take him with a grain of salt.
as, a person of Faith.. i have no problem with homosexuality..
love is love..
dosent matter who you love.
we dont always get to pick and choose, how we love..
as long as its not hurting anyone, and its all consensual.. between adults.. then hey.. more power to you.
this life is hard, and sometimes some one to hold you at the end of the day.. and tell you " hey its ok. we will get thru this together" is what makes life worth living
dosent matter if your reproductive organs are on the inside or the outside.
at the end of the day.. its about who we are as individuals, and who we want to be with.
end of my sermon *G*
love thy neighbour
Relevant, rather apt I'd say:
http://i.imgur.com/u5j7T.jpg
You just dont get this do you! Until you are able to understand the point me and rec made you are stuck.
Not believing is simply an assertion to say there is no evidence to belive x. Thats not the same as beleiving in x despite no proof. I cant make that any clearer really. It a basic principle of reason.
The basic principal of reason is evidence not a negative assumption. I understand that point that you are both making and have an open mind to being convinced by evidence. While there is doubt which I believe there is there so far, I have found myself comfortable in accepting the existence of supreme power.
Relevant, rather apt I'd say:
http://i.imgur.com/u5j7T.jpg
I do not find that upt for the Christians that I know and fail to find any need to have a go at Christians because of there private beliefs. Good people are just that regardless of their beliefs or how they chose to live their lives. Is this the list that you said you have of the reasons for not believing in god ? far from convincing as far as I am concerned.
I do not find that upt for the Christians that I know and fail to find any need to have a go at Christians because of there private beliefs. Good people are just that regardless of their beliefs or how they chose to live their lives. Is this the list that you said you have of the reasons for not believing in god ? far from convincing as far as I am concerned.
Did you read my post?
Getting back on to religion, I have a list of proofs that would convince me, is there anything that would change your mind?
Basically, I have a mentalist list of things that could convince me there was a god. Though if you want to argue evidence against god/gods/divine beings whatever I'm up for that also.
Did you read my post?
Basically, I have a mentalist list of things that could convince me there was a god. Though if you want to argue evidence against god/gods/divine beings whatever I'm up for that also.
Sorry I misread your post, should have been more careful. Same belief, just arrived at by a different route so no need for your list. ;)
I am told I am a Christian. I believe Jesus lived and was a jolly nice chap with good intent. I believe in something I can call 'GOD'. Does that make me a Goddist?
If I think to hard about I can convince myself it's all tosh... then on another day I can think of course 'my god' created all this...
Angel...
I am told I am a Christian. I believe Jesus lived and was a jolly nice chap with good intent. I believe in something I can call 'GOD'. Does that make me a Goddist?
If I think to hard about I can convince myself it's all tosh... then on another day I can think of course 'my god' created all this...
Angel...
I really hate to be this guy, but needs must. This Jesus character has some really good PR either that or people have read a different book than me, by the way this isn't even a complete list:
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17
Jesus will tear families apart - “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. - “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine." Matthew 10:34
Jesus condemns entire cities to a painful death and the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20
Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest... they... should understand... and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15 and Mark 4:11-12
Jesus is criticised by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment - “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7
Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29
Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. - Mark 4:25
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9
"Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God." (The winepress is the press that humans shall be put into so that they can be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15
The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us, the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21
Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25
Jesus sends demons into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the demons out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. Seems like needless animal abuse to be. Mark 5:12-13
Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be that smart, you'd think that the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13
Jesus is okay with beating of slaves. Luke 12:47.
Of course perhaps Jesus is not the Christian messiah after all:
Matthew 1:23 says that the messiah would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.
Romans 1:3 and Acts 2:30 Say that the Messiah must be a physical descendant of David. Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 say he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.
Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.
The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfils the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.
Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod’s massacre.
Actually this list is even longer. Jesus even contradicts himself on numerous occasions even within the same books (so that you can't blame the authors, isn't this supposed to be the unadulterated word of god anyway)
Once again I find that education has obviously been wasted on fools, religion, faith , beliefs in Jesus Christ and God do not make people bad or disfunctional. People make people err go astray call it what you like, religion does not cause war or arguments, people do, and most of the time they use religion as the means to start the conflict.
Most of the Christians that I know have no hatred for homosexuals, as homosexuals are human beings with the same rights to life as everyone else. Christians may not agree with the concept of homosexuality but I don't think that they would wish any human with the right to life dead because of their gender.Life is a Journey and on that journey you will have many experiences that will shape your life and make you the way you are and we will all come to the same end when our days are done. Mankind has always been and will always be its own worst enemy. I suppose its always easier to blame the down trodden for the ill's of this world and I am as guilty as the next man for that. I think that the issue was about same sex marriages and the Christian view point.
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