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View Full Version : Lifting the veil:can we have a poll please?



percy toboggan
11-Oct-06, 21:36
May I request a forum poll? Is it within the rules?

The question:
Do you believe it muslim women should voluntarily refrain from wearing the 'niqab' (facial veil) on the streets of Britain as a gesture toward more harmonious cross cultural relations?

or any (very) similar wording the site-owners.admin might prefer.

thanks

Rheghead
11-Oct-06, 22:08
Can you not post polls yersel?:confused

golach
11-Oct-06, 22:09
Can you not post polls yersel?:confused
Yes he can Rheghead,, its easy.......But do we really need a poll? ...IMO No

connieb19
11-Oct-06, 22:11
Dosn't he have to be a .orger?

Boozeburglar
12-Oct-06, 03:16
I would like to know why you are so interested?

Can you give me some background?

How many veiled women do you encounter and how does it diminish your ability to relate to them?

Perhaps your inability to listen to what they are saying is the problem.

I studied alongside women wearing the full rig and it had no bearing at all. The problem lies with you, not them.

How superficial this whole debate is. A thinly veiled excuse, deliberate pun, to indulge in the same old racist / Islamophobic / Xenophobic clap trap.

Long live Landmarker I suppose, he seemed very welcome here, by certain people.

No wonder he can be found on any number of National Front type sites too.

Caithness is a multi cultural haven, welcoming one and all. The type of intolerance being propped up by the English government reflects nothing about us.

Whether physically or in cyberspace.

northener
12-Oct-06, 09:00
Er, Boozeburglar,

I think the question was should we have a poll. I don't see anything in Percys' post that exudes anti-Islamist attitude.

Discussion not unprovoked rants?

robynaus
12-Oct-06, 10:06
Why do we need a poll because a few politicions are pandering to the media. Surely these women have a right to choose how they dress and if they CHOOSE not to show their faces then that's their business. I choose to wear a scarf in winter but noone seems to object to that. Stop taking yourselves so seriously regards to all robyn

phoenix
12-Oct-06, 12:00
I thought this was a thread about "Lifting the veil" :( only to find it was about Muslims! :(

Boozeburglar
12-Oct-06, 12:15
“Discussion not unprovoked rants?”

Perhaps you should note how few posts I make and consider whether or not that question needs to be posed.

“I don't see anything in Percys' post that exudes anti-Islamist attitude.”

Maybe not in this post, but his feelings are at the least ambivalent.

Rather like a pub, on a web forum there is always some gobby git in the corner mouthing off rubbish. Now and then someone rises to it. I make no apology for identifying an underlying current in someone’s posts over time and responding when I feel like it.

**************************

On Jack Straw…

“Jack Straw

What a refreshing change.
A politician says what most of the rest of us really think.
Let's hope it's the start of a trend and the pendulum of Islamification is halted.”

**************************
On the BNP…

“There are 'extremists' and there are 'extremists'. I am no apologist for the British National Party's more lunatic fringe' yet to my knowledge they have never killed anyone, or conspired to cause explosions over the mid Atlantic or any where else.
Of course, if you know differently I will stand corrected.

Your statement, and your comparison staggered me, to be quite honest.”

**************************

On immigration…

“This country is a slightly more dangerous, more unsettled and ill at ease with itself place to live because of mass immigration which has accelerated to a crescendo in recent years.

To deny this is to deny truth. An unmanaged, unplanned system which has been exploited by economic migrants both legitimate (the EU) and from Africa, Asia, Australasia and even the U.S.A.

We need to ensure that the people who come now are truly needed. That they have a knowledge of Britain and that they speak the language. That their religious baggage is subject to the same scrutiny as their airline holdall.
No island nation can continue to absorb the numbers which have m,ade for these shores in recent years without consequences -most of them negative - for the indigenous population both black & white.
Unemployment is UP. Yet there are more people in work than ever. The main beneficiaries of immigration are the immigrants themselves. Good luck to them but THIS IS BRITAIN. Remember , and tread lightly on our customs and our tolerance.”

**************************

On multiculturalism…

“I was enjoying your post until I read this bit. I see nothing to celebrate in this, unless perhaps there has been a rennaissance for the gaelic. I do not want to visit, much less live in any part of Britain where Urdu, Swahili, Serbo-Croat. Polish or any other tongue foreign to these islands predominates over English. Thank you very much.”

**************************

On the EU…

“THe EC no longer exists. I'm not sure what you mean here? You mean the EU should decide who can emigrate to Britain, temporarily or otherwise? Anyone from any member state can come here to live . This is not the case in France, or Germany and a few others. We agreed to let all the new accession states have entry and working rights. Good eh? Not really, not if you're at the bottom of the skills ladder. Not good at all.”

**************************
On Canada…

“Seems you let in all and sundry yet I'd have no chance. Funny that - or maybe you see it as selectivism. I'm savvy enough to have a laugh at this. Maybe I should buy a one way ticket and claim asylum - as part of an oppressed minority here. White /taxpaying /Christian origins/ str8/able bodied (ish)...on second thoughts with beer at those prices I'll stay put!”

**************************
On… trolling?

“up the Poles

I saw my first ever car with a 'Poland' (like GB) sticker on the back today. It had a Polish registration plate. Of course I have seen trucks, but never cars. Will this be the first of many? Smashing.
It was a nice electric blue one and bore the makers name-badge 'SEAT'Quite a novelty even down here. Any up there yet?

I'm looking forward to seeing more. These people, along with Lithuanians and others are rescuing us from the economic doldrums.”

**************************

I don’t think these opinions or views are representative of the inclusive society found in the North.

It is one thing having a forum open to contributions from all, regardless of their background or beliefs. It is another to have it hosted on a website that, like it or not, is the gateway to Caithness for many visitors.

I just want to ensure no one reads such claptrap and assumes these attitudes bear any relation to those of everyday Caithness folk.

northener
12-Oct-06, 12:53
Boozy,

Agree with your last point about not wishing to give any visitors to our fair county a bad impression. But surely a simple post suggesting a poll on a current issue is a reasonable thing to do?

I don't care what Percy's viewpoints are any more than I care for yours ( no insult intended).

Bear in mind any visitor to caithness.org would be hoping to find people who can listen to another persons viewpoint and requests - and have the ability to react in a reasonable and well-balanced manner - even if they did disagree vehemently with their standpoint on a given subject.

To launch into a tirade creates exactly the impression you are keen to avoid, my friend.

It's a simple request and one I'd be interested in voting on - remember, we live in a democracy so it is only right that each person can request a vote/discussion on whatever they want.

Would be more useful if people voted on the subject instead of sidetracking the issue.

percy toboggan
12-Oct-06, 17:23
Boozeburglar:
Thanks for taking so much interest in my 'back catalogue' of opinions and offerings. If you'd like to sign up to my mailing list I'll work out a tariff.

percy toboggan
12-Oct-06, 17:36
Why do we need a poll because a few politicions are pandering to the media. Surely these women have a right to choose how they dress and if they CHOOSE not to show their faces then that's their business. I choose to wear a scarf in winter but noone seems to object to that. Stop taking yourselves so seriously regards to all robyn

How would you feel if you worked in a shop or filling station and a man walked in with a balaclava helmet on covering all his face except his eyes? I would feel a little disconcerted. The same principle applies to the niqab.
It seems I cannot initiate a poll, which is a shame. I just wondered if the 91% agreement gleaned by the BBC last week might be replicated on this forum. I didn't see any niqab wearers when I was up in Caithness. Perhaps it's a case of out of sight, out of mind. The garment is totally un-British and it is entirely in keeping with my own ideas of 'Britishness' that I have every right to say so. If that upsets you 'robyn' I don't give a monkeys.

Rheghead
12-Oct-06, 17:41
Percy, I was puzzled by the wording of your question. Since you ask if they should voluntarily remove the veil rather than being forced to, then wouldn't the overwhelming response be 'Yes' rather than shed some light on our attitudes towards the veil?:confused

Rheghead
12-Oct-06, 17:45
The garment is totally un-British and it is entirely in keeping with my own ideas of 'Britishness' that I have every right to say so.

Just wondered if you condone western women being forced to wear Islamic headwear in Islamic countries? They will be in keeping with 'Islamicness' eh?

Spacemonkey
12-Oct-06, 19:19
Teenagers who wear hoods are deemed to be troublemakers and are banned from entering some shopping areas because their faces cannot be seen.

Not condoning or condemming this or the wearing of veils, just interested in the ramifications of the apparent double standard.

Dreadnought
12-Oct-06, 19:26
I don't believe there is anything in the Koran which says women should cover their faces. If I recall correctly some Judaic sects also insist their women cover up. So how is this an Islamic issue?

Alice in Blunderland
12-Oct-06, 19:52
I don't believe there is anything in the Koran which says women should cover their faces. If I recall correctly some Judaic sects also insist their women cover up. So how is this an Islamic issue?
You are correct in this it is not in the Koran to cover their faces.I have always found it interesting to see that when women go on the pilgramage to Macca they only cover their hair.They never cover their faces when attending hajj so if it was something that all women following this faith should do why then at the most holliest site are they so disobedient to their teachings?Cultural to cover up not religous.

rockchick
12-Oct-06, 20:14
Nuns wear veils - why not ask them to drop their headgear to assauge your ideals??? Is it possible that you don't find nuns wearing a habit (as they call their veil) offensive?

percy toboggan
12-Oct-06, 20:36
Just wondered if you condone western women being forced to wear Islamic headwear in Islamic countries? They will be in keeping with 'Islamicness' eh?

When in Rome. I have no objection to conforming to the standards of any country I visit, or decide to live in.

percy toboggan
12-Oct-06, 20:38
Nuns wear veils - why not ask them to drop their headgear to assauge your ideals??? Is it possible that you don't find nuns wearing a habit (as they call their veil) offensive?

They show their faces. They are long, long established in Britain. These are not 'ideals' I'm expressing, or 'assuaging' just customs and practices. British ones.

percy toboggan
12-Oct-06, 20:44
Percy, I was puzzled by the wording of your question. Since you ask if they should voluntarily remove the veil rather than being forced to, then wouldn't the overwhelming response be 'Yes' rather than shed some light on our attitudes towards the veil?:confused

This is Britain Rhehgead. We do not, and should not 'force' people what to wear at this point in time.. I'd support voluntary rejection of the niqab because I think it wopuld be a gesture toward smoothing race and religious relations. The country is obviously struggling at the moment and there is widespread concern and resentment. I estimate we are a couple more terrorist outrages away from disorder. Should the problem worsen considerably and civil strife occur then some element of compulsiom might be required but this would be a wholly different scenario. A scenario which might be avoided by ameliorative gestures by muslim communities. Surely it is worth a try.

As a longer standing member* would you be prepared to post a poll on this matter on my behalf? I deduce you too might find the results of interest. Wording to be of your choice entirely.
*no pun intended.

golach
12-Oct-06, 21:24
They show their faces. They are long, long established in Britain. These are not 'ideals' I'm expressing, or 'assuaging' just customs and practices. British ones.
What if the English started saying that the wearing of Tartan and the kilt was no proper to British culture as they did in 1746, what would you do then Percy? ....I suggest that IMO you are skating on very thin ice here.

connieb19
12-Oct-06, 21:27
i think we should ban the English wearing socks and sandals, it's pretty offensive too [disgust] Eww, and speedos should be banned altogether lol.

changilass
12-Oct-06, 21:33
What if the English started saying that the wearing of Tartan and the kilt was no proper to British culture as they did in 1746, what would you do then Percy? ....I suggest that IMO you are skating on very thin ice here.

As we now have our own parliament, I'd like to see them try.

With regards to the veil wearing, if folk want to wear them then let them, but don't be surprised if you are not welcome in shops, banks, garages etc - just like bikers wearing helmets or someone wearing a balaclava.

connieb19
12-Oct-06, 21:36
I think they should be allowed to wear whatever they like as long as we are allowed to have whatever opinion we like without people shouting racism. :confused

percy toboggan
13-Oct-06, 18:45
What if the English started saying that the wearing of Tartan and the kilt was no proper to British culture as they did in 1746, what would you do then Percy? ....I suggest that IMO you are skating on very thin ice here.

Thin Ice? Why?

If the English said tartan was not 'British' they would plainly be talking arrant nonsense. Surely you can understand why, in 1746 such a stance was taken, however temporarily. When the wolf is at the door (or in Derby) desperate measures might be called for.

If you mean what would I think if the fledgeling English nationalist movement got up a head of steam and once more said 'Tartan was not British' I'd take to the streets , or perhaps the A74 and head north while there was still time.
Your analagy is rather wide of the mark golach.

So far as I know the Scots do not want to impose themselves upon the English, quite the reverse, in fact. I hear the SNP are making rapid strides toward power.

Incidentally the question of the niqab is in the news once more. A teacher has been suspended in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire for refusing to take off her 'veil' when teaching the kids, who had complained they couldn't tell what she was saying. She was given leave to wear it in the corridors and in staff room.
A tribunal is arranged for a fortnight's time. Watch this space.

Would you want your child taught by a woman who needed to cover up her face? A fair question, surely?

I also heard a very reasonable spokeswoman for the 'muslim community' today saying there was nothing in the Qu'ran that said a woman should cover her face.

Let's get real, many of them do it to wind up folks like me. They are succeeding. Many more do it because they are manipulated by their menfolk.
Some do it because they wish to stifle lustful gazes from male onloookers. They needn't bother on my account.

Dreadnought
13-Oct-06, 18:53
.

If you mean what would I think if the fledgeling English nationalist movement got up a head of steam and once more said 'Tartan was not British'

This would be very unlikely as any English National movement would be concerned only with English matters. We leave matters concerning all of Britain to the Scots. (take a look at the names of the leaders of the three main parties in Westminster).

percy toboggan
13-Oct-06, 18:55
This would be very unlikely as any English National movement would be concerned only with English matters. We leave matters concerning all of Britain to the Scots. (take a look at the names of the leaders of the three main partis in Westminster).
I agree, some might say the tail is wagging the dog, although Cameron is as English as the Henley regatta. A good place for a 'dreadnought' - fully armed.

Dreadnought
13-Oct-06, 19:04
This would be very unlikely as any English National movement would be concerned only with English matters. We leave matters concerning all of Britain to the Scots. (take a look at the names of the leaders of the three main parties in Westminster).

What I should have said is an English National movement would be concerned only with matters affecting England and the people of England, not just theEnglish.

obiron
13-Oct-06, 19:22
i think we should ban the English wearing socks and sandals, it's pretty offensive too [disgust] Eww, and speedos should be banned altogether lol.
unless your david beckham for some odd reason he looks ok in them.[lol]

bigpete
13-Oct-06, 19:38
School suspends woman over veil
A Muslim woman has been suspended by a school in West Yorkshire after she insisted on wearing a veil in lessons. Bilingual support worker Aishah Azmi, 24, was asked to remove the veil after pupils found it hard to understand her during English language lessons. Headfield Church of England Junior School, in Dewsbury, said she could wear the veil outside the classroom. Ms Azmi refused and was suspended pending the outcome of an employment tribunal, Kirklees Council said. The tribunal heard the case in September and is due to announce its decision within the next two weeks."There is no religious obligation whatsoever for Muslim women to cover themselves up in front of primary school children" Shahid Malik, Labour MP for Dewsbury.

Fluff
13-Oct-06, 22:03
Can i just add to the above post, the children in question did not speak ENglish as a first language, but were indeed learning it.
She was asked to remove it because they struggled to understand her but also when you are learning a new language it is important to see the lips form the words and letters
etc

percy toboggan
13-Oct-06, 22:22
Can i just add to the above post, the children in question did not speak ENglish as a first language, but were indeed learning it.
She was asked to remove it because they struggled to understand her but also when you are learning a new language it is important to see the lips form the words and letters
etc

So, more info. And even more reason for the woman to take down the curtain then.

We have veiled women teaching kids in English schools to speak English.
'things can only get better':lol: [disgust]

Fluff
13-Oct-06, 22:28
i fail to see the point of your post and i very much disagree 'more reason to take down the curtain'
"We have veiled women teaching kids in English schools to speak English"
so in your funny little head, is it only forein woman who wear a veil??

have you ever been out of caithness!?

percy toboggan
13-Oct-06, 22:57
have you ever been out of caithness!?

Almost exclusively.
In my 'funny little head' though I do like it there.

JAWS
13-Oct-06, 23:58
What if the English started saying that the wearing of Tartan and the kilt was no proper to British culture as they did in 1746, what would you do then Percy? ....I suggest that IMO you are skating on very thin ice here.If the appropriate dress code was to wear trousers then I can't see that there should be any argument just as if I, as a youth, had decided to join a Scottish Regiment I would anticipate that nobody would make an exception for me had I refused to wear the kilt just because I was English.

Were I to attend a particularly Scottish occasion where I knew that all males attending were expected to wear Highland Dress then I would consider that I had only two options. One would be to ensure that I attended in the appropriate attire and made every effort to do so with dignity (I am aware that Kilts and English legs are not a good mix) or that I, with appropriate politeness, declined the invitation. I would never, ever, consider it my right deliberately to turn up, differently attired, in an attempt to force my will, as an outsider, on local customs.

Were a British woman turn up to teach at a school in a Muslim Country wearing a pair of shorts and a seductively low cut top would anybody be surprised if she were dismissed if she refused to alter her attire?

I am not one to shrink from offering an opinion, even one which may be unpopular. As soon as anybody hears my accent there is no doubt that I am very much from England. I am also very aware that I now live in Scotland and that I have not been brought here against my will.

That being said I therefore consider that it is only right that I should conform to the laws, customs and behaviour of this Country. I find any thought that Scots should either alter their ways or make exceptions in order to satisfy me and people like me who come from outwith the Country totally unacceptable.

It is up to me to fit into the locality where I at any period reside and not for the people of that locality to change their ways for my benefit, to do so would not only be totally ignorant but would also be to behave with total arrogance.

changilass
14-Oct-06, 00:10
Well said Jaws, shame a few more don't think the same way

crayola
14-Oct-06, 00:50
JAWS choost disna lek til be a fish oota water.

orkneylass
14-Oct-06, 09:36
It's interesting how much one is expected to respect the culture of those who have chosen to move to our country and import their culture, over the customs, practice and culture of the population that has not had to move from anywhere to live here. The sooner someone in a veil commits a serious crime and cannot be identified because they were wearing a veil, the better. Then the argument for a cultural and security expectation that one shows ones face in public will be made for once and for all. That would get round the ping pong about whether or not women are oppressed or exploited by the veil. Personally I find the idea that in order to prevent lust and promiscuity, women must be covered from head to foot, rather than men expected to behave in a restrained and civilised manner, highly offensive. I hate to say this, But why do women always get the blame and have to compromise themselves? In this case it is true and in direct contradiction of all the work our society had done around equality.

pultneytooner
14-Oct-06, 13:30
It's interesting how much one is expected to respect the culture of those who have chosen to move to our country and import their culture, over the customs, practice and culture of the population that has not had to move from anywhere to live here. The sooner someone in a veil commits a serious crime and cannot be identified because they were wearing a veil, the better. Then the argument for a cultural and security expectation that one shows ones face in public will be made for once and for all. That would get round the ping pong about whether or not women are oppressed or exploited by the veil. Personally I find the idea that in order to prevent lust and promiscuity, women must be covered from head to foot, rather than men expected to behave in a restrained and civilised manner, highly offensive. I hate to say this, But why do women always get the blame and have to compromise themselves? In this case it is true and in direct contradiction of all the work our society had done around equality.
How about no hoodies and burberry caps in public either.

connieb19
14-Oct-06, 13:31
Just reported on BBC News 24.

British Airways have sent a worker home for refusing to cover up a small cross around her neck.

Apparently, religious symbols are banned. Apart from turbans for sikhs or hijabs for muslims.
:confused

Dreadnought
14-Oct-06, 13:44
Apart from turbans for sikhs or hijabs for muslims.
:confused

Neither of these are religious symbols.

connieb19
14-Oct-06, 13:54
Neither of these are religious symbols.
Sorry Dreadnought, I was only quoting a BA spokesperson on the news who said that 'Religious symbols must be covered up, except for turbans and hijabs because they are too big to be covered up'.

orkneylass
14-Oct-06, 15:10
How about no hoodies and burberry caps in public either.


You may be aware some town centres and shopping centres have banned these items because of evading CCTV

Ricco
14-Oct-06, 16:19
Very strange.. I assumed that this was a poll essentially asking us whether Moslem women should lift the veil. In my experience of polls the answer is either 'Yes' or 'No' - not long diatribes of debate and discussion about Islam, Moslems or ethnic minorities. :confused





(PS my answer is Yes)

Kingetter
14-Oct-06, 16:27
Very strange.. I assumed that this was a poll essentially asking us whether Moslem women should lift the veil. In my experience of polls the answer is either 'Yes' or 'No' - not long diatribes of debate and discussion about Islam, Moslems or ethnic minorities. :confused





(PS my answer is Yes)

Quite right and into a third page before someone spells it out. Well done Ricco

cuddlepop
14-Oct-06, 16:37
Like any other thread this ones gone off on a tangent .
I vote yes too.
Mr Cp has a very good argument about religeous beliefs and policing this country which I'll post when I'm feeling up for a debate:eek:

percy toboggan
14-Oct-06, 18:55
Very strange.. I assumed that this was a poll essentially asking us whether Moslem women should lift the veil. In my experience of polls the answer is either 'Yes' or 'No' - not long diatribes of debate and discussion about Islam, Moslems or ethnic minorities. :confused
(PS my answer is Yes)

My answer too Ricco, but I cannot post a poll as my status here does not allow it. I asked another to do it on my behalf to no avail. (no pun)

One of my motives was to see the true feelings when a simple 'yes or no' might encourage others to register their feelings. For everyone who writes here in negative terms about Islam and its symbols there is someone to counter that with an opposite view.

I reckon those who have little more than a gut feeling, and a reluctance to write at length are discouraged from adding to the debate. A simple ''yes' or 'no' vote might reveal the true feelings of this community. Of course, I could be hopelessly wrong. It seems we shall never know. Unless you feel like constructing a poll.

martin macdonald
14-Oct-06, 19:27
i will say no

golach
14-Oct-06, 19:51
I say who cares one way or the other, I only met one woman wearing a veil in my life, and that was at my wedding.

JAWS
14-Oct-06, 20:58
In view of the information I have just heard there is far more to this story than initially meets the eye, especially after the recent comments made by Jack Straw.

I am not sure how long the woman in question has been employed in the position she held.

The particular school in question would appear to be a Faith School, as they are now called, to be precise, a Church of England School.
The woman in question is so strong in her insistance that she should wear the veil as a necessary part of her beliefs that she, on her own admission, was not wearing it when she was interviewed for the position.

This sounds to me very much like a carefully "Engineered" situation. It also causes me some puzzlement why a supposedly devout Muslim would wish to seek a position in a specifically Christian School.

And, before anybody starts to claim I am suffering from some sort of "ism", I would have the same sceptical attitude had it been a devout Christian behaving in a similar manner in an specifically Islamic School or one of any other faith for that matter.