An ill wind

[spurtle]

The wind blew so hard last Saturday, that Fred Olsen Renewables, of Norway, who have 60 turbines on the Borders had to shut them down. This sounds unfortunate for the wind farm owners. But, hey, they get paid £1.2million quid for not producing anything for 8 hours. This is about 10 times what they would have earned if they had produced any electricity!
Who is paying these foreign enrepreneurs? Answer - Every person who pays an energy bill.

Have we all gone bonkers?

The whole windfarm funding scandal needs to be properly investigated. Every household in the country pays into this fund through their consumption, thus enabling the majority of us on modest income to line the pockets of the few already super-rich through ever-increasing fuel bills.

Instead of slating people who see the idiocy of the situation as "selfish" our MSP might turn his mind to how the poorest and most vulnerable in this country are going to manage to warm themselves this winter, when much of their disposable income is creamed off to support the money-generating mills.

[Bazeye]

Oh no, not another windfarm thread.

[Rheghead]

A total non-story I'm afraid.

There is 30GW of reserve conventional generation or other plants on outage getting payments for not producing electricity for one reason or another. So wind farms were required to be shutdown in a controlled manner due to high winds, they are a victim of their own success on that day and if they had to shutdown against their contract conditions due to something that wasn't their fault then they should be reimbursed with compensation.

How much would that £1.2 million raise electricity prices for consumers? It wouldn't even register, 3 millionths of a £1 per KWh.

[ywindythesecond]

A total non-story I'm afraid.

There is 30GW of reserve conventional generation or other plants on outage getting payments for not producing electricity for one reason or another. So wind farms were required to be shutdown in a controlled manner due to high winds, they are a victim of their own success on that day and if they had to shutdown against their contract conditions due to something that wasn't their fault then they should be reimbursed with compensation.

How much would that £1.2 million raise electricity prices for consumers? It wouldn't even register, 3 millionths of a £1 per KWh.


Anyone interested in learning from this thread rather than just complaining about its existence should read this first http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/8770937/Wind-farm-paid-1.2-million-to-produce-no-electricity.html

Reggy
You do yourself no favours pretending that you don’t know as well as I do that the circumstances of constraining off wind generation to preserve Grid Integrity and those of constraining off other generation for normal balancing purposes are two very different things.
You know that in its daily business of balancing output with demand that National Grid (NG) has a series of varying contracts with different generators which allows it to call for more or less generation to match the normal daily, weekly,and annual demand patterns. You know that NG also has contracts with generators to be able to step in to fill the gap if there is a sudden outage of a conventional plant, and you know that there are generators, usually oil fired, which can be called upon to meet a peak demand and these generators can command high prices for providing electricity when other sources are exhausted.You know that all these contracts are operated under a pricing framework which is known and understood by all involved. You know that NG balances the Grid but also balances the cost of doing so.You know as well as I do that wind energy operates under a different commercial regime. You know that Government obliges NG to take wind generated energy when it is available whether that is technically sensible or not. You know that even if this obligation did not exist that NG would not choose to constrain off wind energy because the compensation payable to the generator would include the value of a ROC, roughly £50 per MWh, which doesn’t have to be paid to thermal generators. And you also know that when there is high wind and low demand in Scotland that the transmission system cannot cope so when everything else that can be shut down has been shut down, NG has to shut down the wind generation, and pays a ransome for it. Reportedly for Crystal Rig 2, £1,200,000 for £102,510 worth of no electricity. (134MWx8.5hrs@£90 inc ROC). And you know that windfarm construction is running at a hell of a pace and transmission reinforcement is stagnant.

You know these things. Why do you pretend you don’t know these things?

Regardless of any arguments for or against wind generation, it is lunacy to continue to plan to pump more and more electricity into a distribution system that can’t handle it.
YOU know that as well.

[Rheghead]

Regardless of any arguments for or against wind generation, it is lunacy to continue to plan to pump more and more electricity into a distribution system that can’t handle it.
YOU know that as well.

And you know that the distribution system is being updated despite efforts by yourself and your ilk. Now what is your point?

[Corrie 3]

I think this article says it all!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14965099

Pull all the turbines down and build nuclear!!

C3.............:eek::roll:;)

[ywindythesecond]

And you know that the distribution system is being updated despite efforts by yourself and your ilk. Now what is your point?
I know that work has started on the Beauly/Denny transmission upgrade and I understand that work is ongoing on the Scotland/England interconnector but not the detail of it. I know that there is a lot of talk about sub-sea interconnectors with the continent, but I don't know of any PLANS. I am intrigued and flattered that you think I can somehow influence transmission upgrades.
My point was to provide readers of this thread with an insight into the workings of National Grid rather than the selected snapshots which you habitually advance. I note that you have not disputed that you know all of the things I listed.

[badger]

What I didn't know until this latest scandal but have just had explained to me is

"All generating companies make a bid to the Grid telling them the price (per MWh) that they are prepared to take their generators offline. Those with the lowest bid price are cut off first and those with the highest bid are taken off last. Obviously, Crystal Rig operators are smarter than the others and set their bid at £999/MWh – hence they were not first but at a bid of almost 10 times that of the lowest bid, they make 10 times more money per MWh than the lower bidders."

So there isn't even a standard compensation rate for shutting them down - they get what they ask for! If that isn't mad, I don't know what is.

[Maccy]

Oh no, not another windfarm thread.

this kind of thing just goes round and round.

[ywindythesecond]

this kind of thing just goes round and round.
Very funny Maccy, but you won't be laughing when you finally realise that it is your money that is going round and not coming back.

[Rheghead]

I am intrigued and flattered that you think I can somehow influence transmission upgrades.

I just think that you are in danger of being a bit shallow in your line of arguments regarding the grid not being up to the job when you have actively campaigned against said upgrades.


I note that you have not disputed that you know all of the things I listed.

I didn't pretend to not know all those things, it was because that I knew of all those things and more that I still think the compo payments are a big non-story because other generators not least thermal generation get handsomely rewarded for not producing as do heavy consumers like aluminium smelters etc for lost production when generation is at risk and consumption is high, it is all a nonse as well you know, but you are chairman of an anti-wind pressure group so it in your interests that you still grind out this tired old rhetoric.

[Rheghead]

What I didn't know until this latest scandal but have just had explained to me is

"All generating companies make a bid to the Grid telling them the price (per MWh) that they are prepared to take their generators offline. Those with the lowest bid price are cut off first and those with the highest bid are taken off last. Obviously, Crystal Rig operators are smarter than the others and set their bid at £999/MWh – hence they were not first but at a bid of almost 10 times that of the lowest bid, they make 10 times more money per MWh than the lower bidders."

So there isn't even a standard compensation rate for shutting them down - they get what they ask for! If that isn't mad, I don't know what is.

It is called capitalism, free market forces, that now regulates the energy market. Maggie got rid of the last regulator that had power over such things. If you want regulate the markets then you may get those neo-conservative fellows up in arms...................err then again...

[Green_not_greed]

The wind blew so hard last Saturday, that Fred Olsen Renewables, of Norway, who have 60 turbines on the Borders had to shut them down. This sounds unfortunate for the wind farm owners. But, hey, they get paid £1.2million quid for not producing anything for 8 hours. This is about 10 times what they would have earned if they had produced any electricity!
Who is paying these foreign enrepreneurs? Answer - Every person who pays an energy bill.

Have we all gone bonkers?

The whole windfarm funding scandal needs to be properly investigated. Every household in the country pays into this fund through their consumption, thus enabling the majority of us on modest income to line the pockets of the few already super-rich through ever-increasing fuel bills.

Instead of slating people who see the idiocy of the situation as "selfish" our MSP might turn his mind to how the poorest and most vulnerable in this country are going to manage to warm themselves this winter, when much of their disposable income is creamed off to support the money-generating mills.

Purely from a business perspective, those investing in wind power stations should have to take a few risks. One of those risks should be dealing with downtime when the wind doesnt blow or blows too much. Given the obscene profits to be made from wind turbines I think its only fair to expect those responsible for creaming the profits to have to deal with non-production, for whatever reason. I can't think of any other business where operators are still paid for not producing what they are being paid to produce in the first place.

[mi16]

Purely from a business perspective, those investing in wind power stations should have to take a few risks. One of those risks should be dealing with downtime when the wind doesnt blow or blows too much. Given the obscene profits to be made from wind turbines I think its only fair to expect those responsible for creaming the profits to have to deal with non-production, for whatever reason. I can't think of any other business where operators are still paid for not producing what they are being paid to produce in the first place.

It is not the windfarm owners that choose to shut the developments down though, it is the network that cannot cope with the surplus power that is at fault, the developers do take the his though when they fail to produce the goods.

[ywindythesecond]

It is called capitalism, free market forces, that now regulates the energy market. Maggie got rid of the last regulator that had power over such things. If you want regulate the markets then you may get those neo-conservative fellows up in arms...................err then again...

Free market forces my backside! Reggy you know that the push for windfarms is driven by the Renewables Obligation which must be the least free of all market forces.

This was the very simple explanation of Renewable Obligation Certificates which opened my eyes to the way electricity bill payers fund an incentive to investors in wind generation without being asked if they wanted to do so.

http://www.socme.org/goldrush.htnml

"By Ray Berry

I am asked time and time again: "If what you say about windfarms is true, why would anybody ever consider investing money in them? How come there is this scramble to erect windfarms all over the country? If the electricity that they supply is intermittent and unreliable, why would people spend so much on these huge turbines?"
Actually the answer is very simple. It isn't only about the electricity they generate for the grid, what makes them so profitable to erect and for international banks to invest in them is something else entirely.
That something else is what is globally known by several curious acronyms: TRECs, RECs, ROCs or simply Green Certificates. The UK version is the ROC: Renewable Obligation Certificate. That puts us between a ROC and a hard place I'm afraid because this is what makes windfarms in particular the source of the latest goldrush.
So let me explain from the beginning. Most people assume that wind turbines are designed to generate electricity — well so they are and this electricity is sold on the local grid for whatever the going rate is — around 3 pence per kWh or 30 pounds per MWh.
That is one product. The wind turbine actually generates a second product — this product is the ROC which has a value of its own in addition to the electricity sold to the grid. Think of it as two distinct products being produced by the windfarm both of which have a marketable value.
How does this work? Well the ROC is part of the government's plan to increase the use of renewable energy used and generated in the UK in line with Kyoto and other agreements. Non-renewable energy producers, coal, gas etc are now obligated to supply 3 percent of all of the energy they sell as coming from a renewable source. To do this they can buy a Hydro Dam or a Windfarm and hope it constitutes 3 percent of their sales. Most of the time it doesn't come close so the government fines them so much per kWh. The other way is to buy ROCs from renewable energy producers to the amount of MWh they are short. So there is a market for ROCs right away. But it isn't the only one.
So how does a ROC get issued. It works like this: OFGEM, the government's energy regulator is the issuing body. When a windfarm or whatever is built they register with OFGEM and OFGEM then comes along and inspects the facility to see that the output metering is correct etc. Then as electricity is generated (and sold on to the local grid for cash) every MWh generated creates one ROC. Thus each ROC is worth 1MWh (or 1000 kWh depending how you count these things.)
Every ROC generated is kept on OFGEM's register of ROCs — its database. These ROCs can then be used by power companies to offset their 3 percent fines or they can be sold on the open market through a growing network of traders. How much are they worth? Well in the last auction (yes they are auctioned too) the average price was about £67 per ROC or per MWh. And this is for the NEXT year's generation — future generation. Thus if you add together the sales from the local grid mentioned above - £30 per MWh PLUS £67 per ROC you get every Megawatt-hour turned out by a windfarm being worth close to £100.

So let's do a few sums. If we have one 2.2 MW turbine putting out just 1MWh for 12 hours a day (25 percent rated capacity) it earns around £1200. If we multiply that by
365 days in the year we get £438,000 or getting on for half a million quid - and that is just very conservative output on one turbine. Multiply that by say 30 turbines in the average windfarm and we have over £13,000,000 or thirteen million pounds per annum. If you own ten windfarms........over say 20 years we start getting into big numbers like two and a half billion green ones - and that is only at 25 percent efficiency.
Of course you have the capital costs of buying and erecting the things and a pittance in comparison on maintenance, but look at the rewards. How much do they pay the landowners? Not a lot in fact, and the communities get say £30,000 a year.
So perhaps you can see why banks and investment houses are scrambling to get a slice of the action. Right now trading markets are being set up world wide to deal in Green certificates and the EU is jumping firmly on the bandwagon. The price for Green certificates is on the rise and who knows what they will be worth ten years down the road when even more stringent carbon emission penalties are imposed.
Lovely jubbly as someone frequently says, and less than a third of the bonanza comes from actually generating electricity."

[Rheghead]

Free market forces my backside! Reggy you know that the push for windfarms is driven by the Renewables Obligation which must be the least free of all market forces.

And the Renewables Obligation is part of what becomes the free market forces otherwise we will be paying over the odds for our energy. As evident to the big 6 energy providers raising bills by 20% .Lets be thankful that free market forces respond to responsible energy governance.

[oldmarine]

It is called capitalism, free market forces, that now regulates the energy market. Maggie got rid of the last regulator that had power over such things. If you want regulate the markets then you may get those neo-conservative fellows up in arms...................err then again...
I support Rheghead and his comment re: capitalism and free market.